Allies and Scenery - Game breaking or Enhancing?

[Levitas]

6th wants us to buy more. No real shock there. Buy a funky forest and bastion to go with the numerous flyers you have over two allied armies. But when the smoke has cleared and tills have stopped ringing, will these two new elements actually enhance or degrade the game?

Will we see strategic use of scenery and allies in tournaments or will they quickly fade away like a bad joke? Admit it, you've already taken a second look at the bastion and convinced yourself its worth it. And Allies give you the push you need to buy those Tau vespids to rock out with your Grey Knights, ok maybe not...

Thoughts on the long term effects of trees and friends?

Forget war..."There is only Sales!"

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Allies are a wonderful benefit to DIY counts-as armies, it'll let me explore some new unit ideas for my Hrud!

Unsure on terrain, but I'd imagine its staticness in a game that heavily emphasizes movement will mean it isn't too bad?

[Black Hydra]

I think Allies is great. While not exactly tournament friendly, now we can take even more fluffy armies and fill in for weaknesses our many armies can't do otherwise. That being said, we better prepare to see super cheesy lists dominate for the first few months. GK are the obvious choice, but Space Marines and Tau together? SKUB! That one's going to hurt.

I couldn't care less about fortifications. Out of all the changes that one is just for buying. Purely buying. It doesn't really add much and it would cost points to buy the damn fortifications. Just use it as terrain and have it be neutral so anyone who wants it can have it. That's the way it's worked before right? The only thing about fortifications I like is that armies get to take buffers such as the Imperial Statue. I just hope they come up with some for Xenos, but that's unlikely. So we'll have to stick to making our own. Necron Pylons forcing psykers to reroll their successful leadership tests? Yeah!

Overall, allies I consider good. Fortifications, kind of pointless except for buffers.

[harveydent]

if you give armies the ability to mix and match, you tend to get armies that are even more heavily min-max'd.

given the pre-6th edition environment, if you gave armies access to units from other books, you would have GK bringing in various 'toolbox' units from SM, IG or SW. the same would be true of the other top tier forces, and they would tweak the effectiveness of their lists by importing. this just creates even more problems because usually the imported units will account for any inherent weakness in a list.

as for post 6th and the rules being different, i'm not sure.

[Black Hydra]

if you give armies the ability to mix and match, you tend to get armies that are even more heavily min-max'd.

given the pre-6th edition environment, if you gave armies access to units from other books, you would have GK bringing in various 'toolbox' units from SM, IG or SW. the same would be true of the other top tier forces, and they would tweak the effectiveness of their lists by importing. this just creates even more problems because usually the imported units will account for any inherent weakness in a list.

But everyone can bring allies (even Tyranids with IG, Genestealer cult, I don't care what anyone says). And we still have to follow certain guidelines like uncertain allies and allies of convenience. There will be some way to mitigate it.

Yeah it could get pretty wacky pretty fast. But if tournament organizers are smart they'll ban allies or force teams to have more varied lists. There's always a way. I still stand by the allies rule. It'll be cool.

[gendoikari87]

allies are a nice touch, they bring variety and choice and that's never a bad thing. As long as the individual army books are balanced i don't see a problem.

Bunkers on the other hand i'm really looking forward too.

[eldargal]

I want to wait and see the full extent of both the ally and scenery rules before making any kind of decision. However as mentioned above if everyone can take allies then it isn't exactly providing an unfair advantage. Sure those Grey Knights could take some Long Fangs but so could my Eldar if I wanted too.

As for scenery, you don't have to buy GW kits, you can make your own or use other companies. Just like with everything else. I think these rules look extremely promising actually, they add a whole new layer of tactical complexity to the game. Might also give an incentive for GW to produce some bloody Eldar terrain for once.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Eldargal... I really hope your right I'd love to seen Eldar Buildings :D. I do however feel House Rules are becoming dominant, especially from the way I picked up info in the White Dwarf :). For example the Imperial Statuary could be changed to the Eldar Statuary, etc :P

[Mr Mystery]

First up, when it comes to 'game breaking' blame the individual player. It's clear that the 'page 5' of 40k is about telling a story. Give your battle a backstory. Build up grudges.

The result of the game should be secondary to the playing.

For instance, I am tempted to add some Guardsmen to my Nercons, to represent mind shackled slaves. But first, I need to beat an IG Player, how else am I meant to get those Scarabs into their cortex? After a string of victories, I can start looking at including more exotic IG units, and bigger Bastions and defences.

They add an extra dimension to the game for players to explore. And if someone chooses to exploit rather than explore, then that's their call. I'll play them, but likely only once.

[fuzzbuket]

back at the start of 5th i used a BA (paper dex) and gk (3rd ed) allied army, it worked suprisingly well :D with the GK holding objectives and BA going omnomnom :D

and as buildings?

i always assumed marines had bunkers and such that could drop in from orbit (dow had these i think?) and a lot of armies it makes sence :D

[wittdooley]

First up, when it comes to 'game breaking' blame the individual player. It's clear that the 'page 5' of 40k is about telling a story. Give your battle a backstory. Build up grudges.

The result of the game should be secondary to the playing.

For instance, I am tempted to add some Guardsmen to my Nercons, to represent mind shackled slaves. But first, I need to beat an IG Player, how else am I meant to get those Scarabs into their cortex? After a string of victories, I can start looking at including more exotic IG units, and bigger Bastions and defences.

They add an extra dimension to the game for players to explore. And if someone chooses to exploit rather than explore, then that's their call. I'll play them, but likely only once.

Um. I unabashedly love that idea.

[Anggul]

Also don't forget that you have to have an HQ and a Troops choice from your ally of choice before you can have anything else. This means you won't be able to just throw in some Long Fangs or Broadsides, you'll have to have a Shas'el/Shas'O and Fire Warriors first (Presumably, although I'd like to know how 1+ requirements will work with allies), or a Space Wolves HQ and Grey Hunters.

These will, of course, still provide great benefits, but at least you can't just take one unit which will really help, you have to accommodate for the others too (Not that getting to have a squad of Grey Hunters with meltaguns in your army is ever a downside to taking Long Fangs or some such thing).



As for people complaining that Tyranids can't ally with Imperial Guard as Genestealer cultists, the actual Tyranid swarm doesn't fight alongside the cults, the cults just sow confusion beforehand with no actual knowledge of what Tyranids are or why the Genestealers are there. When the Hive Ships turn up, they slaughter all without discrepancy, and the cultists will fight back for their lives. The cultists just know their cult, when they rise up it's for their Patriarch, not for the Hive Mind, which they have no clue about.

[Mr Mystery]

Also don't forget that you have to have an HQ and a Troops choice from your ally of choice before you can have anything else. This means you won't be able to just throw in some Long Fangs or Broadsides, you'll have to have a Shas'el/Shas'O and Fire Warriors first (Presumably, although I'd like to know how 1+ requirements will work with allies), or a Space Wolves HQ and Grey Hunters.

These will, of course, still provide great benefits, but at least you can't just take one unit which will really help, you have to accommodate for the others too (Not that getting to have a squad of Grey Hunters with meltaguns in your army is ever a downside to taking Long Fangs or some such thing).



As for people complaining that Tyranids can't ally with Imperial Guard as Genestealer cultists, the actual Tyranid swarm doesn't fight alongside the cults, the cults just sow confusion beforehand with no actual knowledge of what Tyranids are or why the Genestealers are there. When the Hive Ships turn up, they slaughter all without discrepancy, and the cultists will fight back for their lives. The cultists just know their cult, when they rise up it's for their Patriarch, not for the Hive Mind, which they have no clue about.

Cultists and Hybrids, Magus included, all willingly give themselves to the Hive Mind.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

If Sisters can ally with Dark Eldar, feels pretty silly to say that the Hive Mind can't assume control over the indoctrinated Cultists. Plus, the fluff is FILLED with Tyranid-mind-control-brain-bug-things. The 'nids restriction wouldn't be AS bad if all the other armies had similarly strict ally rules.

[Black Hydra]

Cultists and Hybrids, Magus included, all willingly give themselves to the Hive Mind.

Primaris Psyker and a squad of veteran IG as Brood Brothers.

[Anggul]

Cultists and Hybrids, Magus included, all willingly give themselves to the Hive Mind.

Forgot that part. Not even a fight then, just straight-up devouring. Either way it makes it quite clear that the actual Tyranid swarm doesn't 'ally' with the cultists, it just goes over the planet and eats everything no matter what it is. It's quicker and more efficient, by that point they don't need the help of the cultists, the planet is, in all but extreme cases, already doomed.

[Black Hydra]

Forgot that part. Not even a fight then, just straight-up devouring. Either way it makes it quite clear that the actual Tyranid swarm doesn't 'ally' with the cultists, it just goes over the planet and eats everything no matter what it is. It's quicker and more efficient, by that point they don't need the help of the cultists, the planet is, in all but extreme cases, already doomed.

I posted a list in the allies list building thread with IG having Tyranid Genestealer allies. That works doesn't it? You can use a Tyranid Prime as a Patriarch stand in. Maybe some Ymgarl Genestealers to boot.

[Mr Mystery]

I posted a list in the allies list building thread with IG having Tyranid Genestealer allies. That works doesn't it? You can use a Tyranid Prime as a Patriarch stand in. Maybe some Ymgarl Genestealers to boot.

I think a lot of it is going to depend on what your opponents let you get away with.

A Guard force with all bells and whistles, plus Genestealers might be pushing it a bit. But, keeping the Guard relatively low tech with some Genestealerrs and a Prime? That works better.

For one, I'll let my opponents do whatever as long as it's themeatically justified. Grey Knights with Daemons - That's a no from me, just jars too much. But...using the Inquisitorial aspects of the book alone, that I can get behind.

This is very much the sort of thing that lets you spot a powergaming waac goon an absolute mile off. Oh look. You've combined Grey Knights with Death Company. Why no sir, I don't really fancy giving you a game, on account I suspect you're a bit of a knobber.....

Though for all my lofty ideals, I'm definitely not above taking Blood Angels allies in my Necrons, just to irritate the hell out of fluff ****s!

[harveydent]

there's another aspect to allowing armies to 'mix-and-match' and that is that GW is notorious for playtesting their armies poorly. when they attempt to develop and test a new codex, now they must not only test every possible army variant from THAT codex, but every potential army variant that utilizes units from other armies.

additionally, when they decide to print a new version of a codex, they are not just potentially invalidating old units from the main codex (making the previous incarnation of the core army unplayable), but also potentially eliminating that army's units from every army that was able to take the other's units as allies.

there is just so much potential for doing all the wrong things with this ally stuff... believe me when i say this, because it's just like allowing players to mix-and-match factions in any other game (a lot like many CCGs do it), and i have been a CCG developer that's had to deal with this kind of integration problem. it's horrendous.

[Anggul]

I posted a list in the allies list building thread with IG having Tyranid Genestealer allies. That works doesn't it? You can use a Tyranid Prime as a Patriarch stand in. Maybe some Ymgarl Genestealers to boot.

Yeah that sounds good, cool idea. I'm just talking about full-on Tyranid swarms with Trygons and everything allying with cultists. :p

[Black Hydra]

@Mr Mystery: It is mentioned that very successful Genestealer cults can manage to take over PDF warehouses and use that equipment. So using Lemans and Vendettas isn't a stretch. What I wouldn't do is give them a command squad. Platoon squads are fine because their junior officers aren't too cheesy and it can be assumed that there is some sort of command structure in a GS cult.

I agree with not playing WAAC's who abuse the allies rule. Though Grey Knights with Daemons isn't too far off. What about an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor gone rogue. A whole Henchmen army with daemons wouldn't be cheesy. But I doubt that's allowed in any way or form in the current rules. It's even less likely than Genestealer cults.

Lol at taking BA with Necrons. I wouldn't care really. But for extra kicks do it against Tyranids.

@harveydent: It'd fix a lot of problems if Allies would be used only in certain missions not just Apoc. That way you don't always bring allies. But whatever. We'll just have to deal with it as it comes.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

For one, I'll let my opponents do whatever as long as it's themeatically justified. Grey Knights with Daemons - That's a no from me, just jars too much. But...using the Inquisitorial aspects of the book alone, that I can get behind.

Ahhh.. However using Grey Knights book to represent Pre-heresy Thousand sons logically allows for Daemon Alliance, but as you said... As long as their is a reasonable story I feel it'll be fine :)

[Black Hydra]

Yeah that sounds good, cool idea. I'm just talking about full-on Tyranid swarms with Trygons and everything allying with cultists. :p

It wouldn't work too well. The problem with Tyranids is that they need the numbers on their side. Using them as the main force with an IG detachment wouldn't help, even less if the point limit for allies is 750. I was stretching for points on that list, but I would use the Genestealers as shock troops to corral the opponent into a certain area where my IG would blast them apart.

On the other hand the only use I see in an IG detachment for Nids is either some reliable anti tank or troops to use as screening. That starts getting pricey, more so if you take a command squad. But this is only possible if your opponent even allows you to take IG as allies.

IG units I would take if I were playing Tyranids:
- Primaris Psyker
- Vet squad with a chimera
- and if you can squeeze in a tank or 2, it's the only reason you're taking an IG detachment to begin with.

[Mr Mystery]

Ahhh.. However using Grey Knights book to represent Pre-heresy Thousand sons logically allows for Daemon Alliance, but as you said... As long as their is a reasonable story I feel it'll be fine :)

Yeah that would be cool!

[terminus]

I'm more curious how people will transport buildings, especially when traveling.

[Black Hydra]

I'm more curious how people will transport buildings, especially when traveling.

If I were a smart person (which I hope I am) I'd take this kind of stuff.

http://ttfix.blogspot.de/2012/06/wyrd-miniatures-terraclips-dungeon-rise.html

I'm sure I've seen buildings made in the same way. Far easier to travel with. But then again we're not really going to be buying fortifications. Having it neutral on the field seems to be more balanced.

[bfmusashi]

If you're going fluffy with it you can't use Vendettas. Those belong to the Navy and I can't recall a mention of one belonging to the PDF. That's not to say it couldn't happen (transport shuttles also fall under the Navy's purview but I'm pretty sure the naval section of the PDF has them).

[Black Hydra]

If you're going fluffy with it you can't use Vendettas. Those belong to the Navy and I can't recall a mention of one belonging to the PDF. That's not to say it couldn't happen (transport shuttles also fall under the Navy's purview but I'm pretty sure the naval section of the PDF has them).

I don't think it's that far off to use Vendettas. But if anything more fluffy can be used then by all means please suggest it. The only reason I put those there was because it seemed like they needed a good punch. Maybe Hellhounds? Or just ordnance? There are ordnance batteries on planets. It's how the Carnivales took over a planet.