6th Ed Rule Change Extrapolation!

[Mr Mystery]

How do!

So, had a chance to pour through this months White Dwarf, and there are various hints laced throughout as the changes coming next week.

First up, looks like the throwing of Grenades is backk! It's a long time fan wish, and now we have it! However it doesn't really say how this works, and that's a common trait with all the new hints!

Next, Overwatch. Back as a charge reaction, at BS1. It mentions that some weapons can't do this, and there's a Psychc Power which allows full BS Overwatch.

Rapid Fire - Looks like you can rapid fire at FULL range. Yeah. My Immortals just got filthy!

Hull Points. Well, we know the Ghost Ark has 4 of these, as do the really big things. But what it doesn't cover is what they do. There's a glimmer of a suggestion in the battle report that this might be a save of some kind, as it refers to a Defiler making a save, but doesn't say where this save comes from. It also clearly mentions that Gauss Weapons strip off a Hull point for every 6 to penetrate..

Assaults. 2D6" random assault, with Jump Packs and Fleet allowing you to re-roll. Which is pretty nice!

Multiple Assaults - According to the battle report, if you assault multiple units, both can rapid fire at you, and you lost your bonus attack for charging - Interesting!

Psychics - Pretty well covered, but looks like all units have a 'Deny The Witch' roll, negating psychic powers on a 6+. Kind of cool in my book!

Snap Fire - The hintiest of hints on this one. Looks like it allows Tanks for fire more weapons having moved. The example given is a Landraider moving, firing one Flamestorm Cannon normally allowed, the other with Machine Spirit, and the Assault Cannons and Multi Melta using 'snap fire'. Doesn't mention qualifiers for this, or what BS it would be fired at.... But it's nie to know Tanks are getting a bit more dakka!

So theres a lot of changes to come, and they're tight lipped about it for now! These are just th eones I've found quickly, and there's plenty more. Anyone else want to weigh in?

[Mr Mystery]

Found another! Casualty Removal - Whilst wound allocation remains unknown, it is clearly stated a couple of times that the models closest to the firing unit are removed first.

Snipers - Another fairly clear one, stating that rolls of a '6' to hit allow the firing unit to allocate the wound. Yep. Deathmarks are now extremely saucy, and I can see Rangers/Pathfinders being extremely popular with Eldar for weeding out enemy heavy weapons or other squad specialists.

Heavy Weapons - Looks like they can move and fire. Again not much on this other than saying they can. I'd expect some kind of lowered BS, perhaps a lowered range?

Challenges - Confirmed as existing, but nothing about how they work (boo!)

Monstrous Creatures - Can halve their attacks to double their strength!

Winged Monstrous Creatures - Can do a 'Vector Strike' allowing them to duff up units they move over. Exact nature is confused. One bit says D3+1, another mentions D3+2? Might be upgrades or others allowing it.

Feel No Pain - Dropped to a 5+. Which I'm in favour of.

Allies - Just another aspect of the FoC. Nice.

Psychic Powers - For those fearing 8th Ed Fantasy Magic levels, breather a sigh of relief. They don't appear any worse than those powers existing, but that's just on face value.

[fuzzbuket]

nice to see casualty removal but random charge range!?i hope you can roll beafor you pick your target, otherwise ill never get into CC unless im 1" away and ill roll for 12" charge :/

[Black Hydra]

How does that 6+ against psychic abilities work? Does it happen right after the leadership test or does it replace a save if it negated due to high AP? Because if it's just an invul save, it's kind of useless. Sure low armor units benefit from it, but that's about it.

[Mr Mystery]

How does that 6+ against psychic abilities work? Does it happen right after the leadership test or does it replace a save if it negated due to high AP? Because if it's just an invul save, it's kind of useless. Sure low armor units benefit from it, but that's about it.

Another bit of extrapolation required. Now it doesn't say 100%, but it does mention a Psychic Hood *can* increase Deny the Witch to a 4+. So provided Psychic Hoods remain the same, it seems Deny The Witch works as they do.

The *can* is so highlighted as it suggests that a Psychic Hood may not be as fail safe as it is just now. Which in turn suggests it's changed....

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

btw of note... Feel No Pain isn't just bad for stuff like Dark Eldar, for it's 5+ but it can be used against all attacks that don't cause insta death (to me it makes up for it getting worse, while still not being OTT) :D

[gcsmith]

btw of note... Feel No Pain isn't just bad for stuff like Dark Eldar, for it's 5+ but it can be used against all attacks that don't cause insta death (to me it makes up for it getting worse, while still not being OTT) :D

Interesting, I feel a black knight coming on.

I just cleaved your head off.

Meh just a flesh wound.

But it was a power sword.

I SED IT WAZ JST A FLESH WUND.

[Bulveye]

Very interesting stuff. Thanks for the breakdown :D

[gcsmith]

nice to see casualty removal but random charge range!?i hope you can roll beafor you pick your target, otherwise ill never get into CC unless im 1" away and ill roll for 12" charge :/

That change makes no sense, I mean All races in 40k wear special combat suits, apart from orks. Not as if they are going to just trip, unless it's difficult and that roll makes sense. Just going to place it as Matt Ward and his stupidity.

Note: glad my shop at uni is laid back, gonna scratch build a lot of AA mounts, damn Deathrays, and I aint paying that much for them. Unless I earn loads of money from D3

[jifel]

Most of this is old I think. Snap fire allows a unit to fire a weapon it normally couldnt at BS 1. So a dev squad could move and still shoot (Hint: shoot at fliers!) And a vehicle that is stunned could shoot its weapons. "Hull Points" are rumored to be wounds for vehicles, where for example a "stunned" result would remove a single Hull point, losing all of them would be a destroyed result. A vehicle wrecked/explodes removes all hull points. It doesnt make them tougher, but they can now be glanced to death easier.

[Bracchus]

I for one like pretty much all of these changes.

Random charge ranges? No problem, no terrain is exactly the same, sure they could have done some kind of terrain modification chart, but that would just bog the game down. So just try looking at it as if your plastic dudes are charging thru a hailstorm och bullets and uneven terrain. At least works for me, but i like the fluffy stuff and couldn't give a damn about tournament stuff, guess those that do would rather have a set distance.

Hull points sounds like a kind of a nice touch, taking sustained fire would sooner or later destroy any vehicle. Hope they got the balance right. Having landraiders and monoliths break all over the place would just be silly.

6+ psy save. This I don't really get, why would you get a save? Probably a way to let the armies without their own psychers at least have something, but would have been weird that only they got the save so everyone got it.

Snipers getting to allocate wounds that rolled 6 seems like a good way to give them a nice buff.

Feel no pain at 5+, hurts as one of my fav armies is a plague marine force. But if it works against pw I can more than live with it.

Really fired up for 6th edition, the 30th can't get here fast enough! :)

[gcsmith]

I for one like pretty much all of these changes.

Random charge ranges? No problem, no terrain is exactly the same, sure they could have done some kind of terrain modification chart, but that would just bog the game down. So just try looking at it as if your plastic dudes are charging thru a hailstorm och bullets and uneven terrain. At least works for me, but i like the fluffy stuff and couldn't give a damn about tournament stuff, guess those that do would rather have a set distance.

Hull points sounds like a kind of a nice touch, taking sustained fire would sooner or later destroy any vehicle. Hope they got the balance right. Having landraiders and monoliths break all over the place would just be silly.

6+ psy save. This I don't really get, why would you get a save? Probably a way to let the armies without their own psychers at least have something, but would have been weird that only they got the save so everyone got it.

Snipers getting to allocate wounds that rolled 6 seems like a good way to give them a nice buff.

Feel no pain at 5+, hurts as one of my fav armies is a plague marine force. But if it works against pw I can more than live with it.

Really fired up for 6th edition, the 30th can't get here fast enough! :)

Personally, i'm pissed the game is moving away from tournament play even more. The reason so many people are playing warmachine and hordes are that they are able to play tournaments more balance etc. My store manager said they make more money from non tourney players, and tourney players scare gamers away. Thats utter crap, as a gamer I know tourney gamers make you want to spend more money to copy their lists, and most tourney gamers switch army fairly often.

Snipers needed no buff, Tau should get psykic save, they are warp neutral after all. And Templars already get one. But meh, I don't have psykic powers so doesnt matter if others get it.

Overall rules seem good, but charge is still irking me.

[Mr Mystery]

Personally, i'm pissed the game is moving away from tournament play even more. The reason so many people are playing warmachine and hordes are that they are able to play tournaments more balance etc. My store manager said they make more money from non tourney players, and tourney players scare gamers away. Thats utter crap, as a gamer I know tourney gamers make you want to spend more money to copy their lists, and most tourney gamers switch army fairly often.

Snipers needed no buff, Tau should get psykic save, they are warp neutral after all. And Templars already get one. But meh, I don't have psykic powers so doesnt matter if others get it.

Overall rules seem good, but charge is still irking me.

And there's the rub. 40k and indeed Fantasy have their roots in the roleplaying side of things. The games have never been intended for highly competitive play. The mission statement of 40k, it's Page 5 if you like, is to tell a story. The games aim to provide a cinematic type game, wiith acts of insane heroism and chance deciding things.

Warmahordes probably is a better game for competitive play, but then Page 5 suggests that's what they intended it to do (and one of the reasons I don't enjoy the game).

And in my experience as an ex-staff member, those who play exclusively in tournaments do tend to put other players off. Their comments in-store are as those online. Always about 'optimal' and 'comp'. It's great if that's what you are into. But for those who a buying their models for more aesthetic reasons, it gets very boring very quickly. Now don't get me wrong, it's your Hobby to enjoy as you see fit, but Tournament players are a minority. GW's games have the widest market appeal, and that is why they continue to dominate the market. To realign the rule set for competitive play would risk losing a swathe of other customers. So how do you compete for the tournament dollar? Simply put, you don't. You make the game appeal more and more to those not that fussed for competitive play, and let the companies who do aim for the tournament market scrap it out amongst themselves.

[gcsmith]

And there's the rub. 40k and indeed Fantasy have their roots in the roleplaying side of things. The games have never been intended for highly competitive play. The mission statement of 40k, it's Page 5 if you like, is to tell a story. The games aim to provide a cinematic type game, wiith acts of insane heroism and chance deciding things.

Warmahordes probably is a better game for competitive play, but then Page 5 suggests that's what they intended it to do (and one of the reasons I don't enjoy the game).

And in my experience as an ex-staff member, those who play exclusively in tournaments do tend to put other players off. Their comments in-store are as those online. Always about 'optimal' and 'comp'. It's great if that's what you are into. But for those who a buying their models for more aesthetic reasons, it gets very boring very quickly. Now don't get me wrong, it's your Hobby to enjoy as you see fit, but Tournament players are a minority. GW's games have the widest market appeal, and that is why they continue to dominate the market. To realign the rule set for competitive play would risk losing a swathe of other customers. So how do you compete for the tournament dollar? Simply put, you don't. You make the game appeal more and more to those not that fussed for competitive play, and let the companies who do aim for the tournament market scrap it out amongst themselves.

Personally, there is no reason you can't have cinematic and competative play. Remove random movement for one thing, Random doesn't make it more cinematic, rather frustrating. And my whole time as a gamer, tourney gamers have helped me, only encouraged me to buy new stuff.

Also I would add, if your game can't be played competative at tournies, then there are clearly balance issues. In which case, what fun is there playing a game where your army is inherently going to lose based on the stats.

[Mr Mystery]

Personally, there is no reason you can't have cinematic and competative play. Remove random movement for one thing, Random doesn't make it more cinematic, rather frustrating. And my whole time as a gamer, tourney gamers have helped me, only encouraged me to buy new stuff.

Also I would add, if your game can't be played competative at tournies, then there are clearly balance issues. In which case, what fun is there playing a game where your army is inherently going to lose based on the stats.

Balance is largely perceived. A truly balanced game would mean an experienced player would have the same chance against a new comer as they do another experienced player. And in terms of Warmahordes, it's my opinion that it has trader the fun in for the competitive edge. The Feats bore me to tears, reducing the game into a race to pull yours off first. Unbreakable combos really put me off any game.

Random Charge ranges adds extra depth. For instance, as it stands now, my Tesla Immortals can extrapolate how far my opponents infiltrating unit is (typically set up 18" away from me). I move back an inch, and let rip. Said assaulting unit gets mauled in my turn, legs it toward me in his turn, and generally gets polished off the next. Keeping assault random, but overall extended (average charge will be 7") opens up more decisions to be made. Sure I can Overwatch at them now, but it's far better for me to conentrate fire, as it's more likely they'll make combat, no matter what I do. Making my opponents turn less predictable means Ihave to work a lot harder in my turn to ensure it all goes my way.

The risk is what keeps me playing GW games. The random chances keep me on my tactical toes. Now of course it's not for everyone, and I'm talking purely about my preferences!

[DarkLink]

Between improved rapid-fire and allies, I'll start using my sisters again. Good thing I didn't sell them after that WD codex came out.


And there's the rub. 40k and indeed Fantasy have their roots in the roleplaying side of things. The games have never been intended for highly competitive play. The mission statement of 40k, it's Page 5 if you like, is to tell a story. The games aim to provide a cinematic type game, wiith acts of insane heroism and chance deciding things.

I don't know why you assume that cinematics and engaging gameplay are ignored by competitive player.

And "not intended for competitive play" really means "won't be bothered to balance the game".

All you need for competitive play is good balance, and to not go overboard on randomness. And randomness does not negate competitiveness. Poker and magic are both pretty random, but are highly competitive.

So, really, all we "competitive" players ask for is a well balanced game. But it's not just us. How many people dislike the new wave of GK bandwagoners? That nonsense wouldn't happen in a not balanced game, so non-competitive players should ask for balance as much as everyone else.

Balance makes the game objectively better, without compromising the to side of things.

So why argue with each other?


And random charges are one of the few increases in randomness that I've seen so far, so I wouldn't worry much about that.

Edit:
And with premeasuring, random charges are important to keep you on your toes in the movement phase. Now instead of merely having to pay attention, you have to make calculated risks. And since 2d6 is a net buff (especially since I love jump infantry) over static 6" charges, assault becomes a bit more important. I just decided I like that particular change.

[gcsmith]

Between improved rapid-fire and allies, I'll start using my sisters again. Good thing I didn't sell them after that WD codex came out.



I don't know why you assume that cinematics and engaging gameplay are ignored by competitive player.

And "not intended for competitive play" really means "won't be bothered to balance the game".

All you need for competitive play is good balance, and to not go overboard on randomness. And randomness does not negate competitiveness. Poker and magic are both pretty random, but are highly competitive.

So, really, all we "competitive" players ask for is a well balanced game. But it's not just us. How many people dislike the new wave of GK bandwagoners? That nonsense wouldn't happen in a not balanced game, so non-competitive players should ask for balance as much as everyone else.

Balance makes the game objectively better, without compromising the to side of things.

So why argue with each other?


And random charges are one of the few increases in randomness that I've seen so far, so I wouldn't worry much about that.

Edit:
And with premeasuring, random charges are important to keep you on your toes in the movement phase. Now instead of merely having to pay attention, you have to make calculated risks. And since 2d6 is a net buff (especially since I love jump infantry) over static 6" charges, assault becomes a bit more important. I just decided I like that particular change.

I don't like random charge, but I believe the best thing for balance atm is to cut off Matt Wards Hands and tongue.

[egorene]

as a casual player and i need to say that i played 1 tournament till now , it is my opionon
that this edition is great as far i`ve seen it today.

Sure there are changes and that random charge can and will be the doom of some
games .
But Ok , this looks great and it feels good
so lets give it a chance .

And by the Warmachine / Hordes is also good , but i find the lack of high quality minis a bit disapointing .
But ruleswise they were better till now than GW.

So its up to all the players to decide .
And after seeing the all this years editions rise and fall , this will be for me the best change
since the change of 2nd to 3rd

2 sucked , with all the different dice and the odd looking miniatures

[Tepogue]

. My store manager said they make more money from non tourney players, and tourney players scare gamers away. Thats utter crap, as a gamer I know tourney gamers make you want to spend more money to copy their lists, and most tourney gamers switch army fairly often.

Nope you are the one wrong. I was the gaming manager at a Hobbytown USA for a couple of years. I knew who bought stuff. I saw the numbers at the end of the day, helped with ordering. unpacked shipments, etc. I had ~80-100 gaming customers. Of those 5-6 maybe came to the bi monthly tournaments. The other people spent more money, bought all the models in an army, not just the "good" ones. They bought paint, supplies, etc.

I look forward to the new book, just wish I wasn't an unemployed college student right now and could actually afford the new book.

[Uncle Nutsy]

well, if rapidfire is indeed two shots at full range, then...

ALL my crisis suits will pack plasma and missile pods, with the ballistic skill upgrade.

[Black Hydra]

Well this is a lot of stuff to read through, but my 2 cents on why random charge sucks. While it is true that it would make you think more about who to charge, that was already possible when people placed their models in terrain. Yeah, yeah, hail of bullets and your guys have to be more cautious. But honestly that much cinematic imagination is not going to be used. Random charging doesn't present you with the same visuals as, say, 2 HQ's challenging each other. Random charging just says "Oh bullets and explosions everywhere but nowhere near us? Let's move cautiously." I used to say assault wasn't dead in 5th, but this pretty much kills it mostly.

You honestly expect random charging to be good? That's fine. Just that there will be less of it going on in this edition.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Balance is largely perceived. A truly balanced game would mean an experienced player would have the same chance against a new comer as they do another experienced player. And in terms of Warmahordes, it's my opinion that it has trader the fun in for the competitive edge. The Feats bore me to tears, reducing the game into a race to pull yours off first. Unbreakable combos really put me off any game.

Random Charge ranges adds extra depth. For instance, as it stands now, my Tesla Immortals can extrapolate how far my opponents infiltrating unit is (typically set up 18" away from me). I move back an inch, and let rip. Said assaulting unit gets mauled in my turn, legs it toward me in his turn, and generally gets polished off the next. Keeping assault random, but overall extended (average charge will be 7") opens up more decisions to be made. Sure I can Overwatch at them now, but it's far better for me to conentrate fire, as it's more likely they'll make combat, no matter what I do. Making my opponents turn less predictable means Ihave to work a lot harder in my turn to ensure it all goes my way.

The risk is what keeps me playing GW games. The random chances keep me on my tactical toes. Now of course it's not for everyone, and I'm talking purely about my preferences!

A truly balanced game would have a newcomer not standing a chance against an experienced player, unless they got very lucky. When you have an unbalanced game you have things like inexperienced newcomers playing Grey Knights beating experienced Tyranid players, that's not to say an experienced Tyranid player can't beat Grey Knights. I don't see how a balanced game is one where someone who barely knows the rules has a 50% chance of winning just like the experienced player. That would be a stupid game where no matter how good you are you have just as good a chance as losing to a newcomer as another experienced person. I mean look at Chess, the most balanced game there is basically. An experienced Chess player is going to beat a newcomer 100 out of 100 times.

[Wolf Brother Hellstrom]

from everything i heard and read and seen it seems to me that the game has gottan WAY more shooty. which doesnt surprise me since assualty armies have been fairly dominate. from the random charge and the new rapid fire rumors, codexes based on being assualt(ie blood angels, orcs) orientated just got seriosly nerfed. i also foresee games being much faster due to higher rate of shooting casualties. i believe armies like tau, eldar, certain dark eldar lists are going to get real sick cause of all the rapis fire weapons, heck even vanilla marines and all the bolters. with this in mind the i beileve it does balance out the game as a whole. except for one codex- imperial guard. between the leafblower and the chimera rush IG (and maybe even tau:D) will dominate.

just one mans opinion and my first impression

[Demonus]

Gotta agree with some of the above, I do not like 2d6 charge ranges at all. What about beasts and calvary? if my 12 inch assault range on scarabs and TWC suddenly becomes 2d6 instead, that changes both units immensely.

I like some of the other rumored changes. Guess we will see how it goes.

Saw some people playing with the new flyer rules at GW store today. Board was blue, with cotton balls spread out in spots. Every one had 1-2 flier units in a huge dogfight, and you got a cover save if behind clouds hehe.

[Mr Mystery]

Gotta agree with some of the above, I do not like 2d6 charge ranges at all. What about beasts and calvary? if my 12 inch assault range on scarabs and TWC suddenly becomes 2d6 instead, that changes both units immensely.

I like some of the other rumored changes. Guess we will see how it goes.

Saw some people playing with the new flyer rules at GW store today. Board was blue, with cotton balls spread out in spots. Every one had 1-2 flier units in a huge dogfight, and you got a cover save if behind clouds hehe.

White Dwarf doesn't mention troop types beyond Infantry and Jump Infantry, so we'll need the rule book to know how it affects Beasts et al. Assuming it takes a cue from Fantasy, I'd expect 3d6 pick the highest two or similar.

[Xenith]

as a gamer I know tourney gamers make you want to spend more money to copy their lists, and most tourney gamers switch army fairly often.

Note, that even in your own example, it is the non tourney player spending the money.

Only in it for tourneys player makes and tests an efficient/optimised 2000pt list, buys it, never fields anything else unless faq/rules change.

Collector player buys 2000pts of random stuff, boshes together an army, then buys new stuff as it comes out.

[gcsmith]

Note, that even in your own example, it is the non tourney player spending the money.

Only in it for tourneys player makes and tests an efficient/optimised 2000pt list, buys it, never fields anything else unless faq/rules change.

Collector player buys 2000pts of random stuff, boshes together an army, then buys new stuff as it comes out.

Every tourney gamer I know, has bought new armies for nearly every tournament. They provide solid income, and even the regular non tourney gamers play to actually win once in a while. People can't say the game shouldn't be balanced, and a perfectly balanced game, is perfect for tournaments.

[juliusb]

From my observations I would have to say that non-competitive players spend more. I build armies based on models I like, fun special rules etc. None of my armies spam any units (except Deathwing for obvious reasons) and I always collect a wide variety of kits.

Also, I've noticed that "collectors" are more likely to keep their armies; sure the tourney guys may always buy the new build but they're also the first to sell the old tourney list.

On a side note, it's fun for me to watch people complain about what's gotten nerfed/buffed. When you don't collect for competitive advantage you don't have to worry; some of your stuff gets buffed, some nerfed; no sweat. Case in point; I recently built a unit of Deathmarks because I thought they were cool, in spite of the fact that everyone says they're overpriced. Now it looks like they might be getting a buff...

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

One remark to all those saying the game lacks balance, well... We havent seen the book yet. I mean this is all complete conjecture, which has it's merits but I just feel we shouldnt jump the gun is'll

I do not, however think Assault armies are going to be nerfed, I do feel that all aspects of the game will be more brutual though, especially considering the changes to Monstrous creatures, Jump Infantry :). But yeah, we'll see :P

[Defenestratus]

Every tourney gamer I know, has bought new armies for nearly every tournament. They provide solid income, and even the regular non tourney gamers play to actually win once in a while. People can't say the game shouldn't be balanced, and a perfectly balanced game, is perfect for tournaments.

Relevant but anecdotal I know -- but here's my story.

I've played exactly 3 tournaments in my life. 1 of which was when I was 15 years old or so back in 2nd edition.

One day I calculated the net worth of all my GW/FW goods. It comes out to over $15,000. Thats not counting all the innumerable hobby supplies that I've bought over the years. (Christ I have a problem)

And yes - it has to do with the fact that I just HAVE to have 30 swooping hawks, 30 warp spiders and 30 Striking Scorpions. Not because they're GOOD, but because they are fun to play games with or the models are awesome.

I just spent over $150 on bits to make a land raider Ares complete with FW extra armor and doors. Think I'll ever use that in a tournament? Nope. Never.

I have a squad of GK termies here, on a bunch of custom bases with the most retarded weapon loadout outfitted. Why? Because they models look cool.

Very rarely do I ever buy something because the unit is OMFGWTFBBQPWN in a game. Most of the tourney players I know, on top of being insufferable pricks around the old LGS, buy only what they need to make the list that they want for the next tournament, and often on a bit-by-bit basis or from internet retailers. The only industry that they seem to keep floating is the commissioned painting services. Personally I wasn't shedding a tear when those guys made the jump to warmachine.

[Anggul]

I like the sound of most of it but not 2D6" charge distance. In fantasy at least you add your movement to it to guarantee a minimum. In this case you can go anywhere from 2 to 12, and situations will abound where a squad is about 6 inches away and they somehow manage to trip across open ground and the player's well thought-out plan will go out of the window.

Also is it me or is shooting getting a lot better than assault? I don't recall assault being overpowered compared to shooting, in fact a lot of the more powerful lists just sit back and blow everything away from a distance.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

I like the sound of most of it but not 2D6" charge distance. In fantasy at least you add your movement to it to guarantee a minimum. In this case you can go anywhere from 2 to 12, and situations will abound where a squad is about 6 inches away and they somehow manage to trip across open ground and the player's well thought-out plan will go out of the window.

Also is it me or is shooting getting a lot better than assault? I don't recall assault being overpowered compared to shooting, in fact a lot of the more powerful lists just sit back and blow everything away from a distance.

In Fantasy, though, you don't move then assault. It's all one thing.

As for assault, there was a point where it was insane: 4th Edition. Sweeping Advance into other units to protect yourself? Yikes.

[Mr Mystery]

I like the sound of most of it but not 2D6" charge distance. In fantasy at least you add your movement to it to guarantee a minimum. In this case you can go anywhere from 2 to 12, and situations will abound where a squad is about 6 inches away and they somehow manage to trip across open ground and the player's well thought-out plan will go out of the window.

Also is it me or is shooting getting a lot better than assault? I don't recall assault being overpowered compared to shooting, in fact a lot of the more powerful lists just sit back and blow everything away from a distance.

A well timed assault can wipe out entire enemy units. Give them a good shoeing, watch them break, run them down. Most dedicated assault units have a healthy initiative rating, meaning they can run down fleeing enemies with greater ease.

With shooting? I can thrash hell out of a unit, and it's still basic Ld for it to break.

The main trouble with 40k is people not using enough terrain. Many moons ago on Warseer, someone gave a photo demo of what a quarter of a tables worth of terrain actually looks like. There's a lot of it! So with suitable terrain, shooting loses some of it's lustre due to los restrictions.

But before drawing any firm conclusions, I'm waiting for the book in my hands!!

[gcsmith]

Relevant but anecdotal I know -- but here's my story.

I've played exactly 3 tournaments in my life. 1 of which was when I was 15 years old or so back in 2nd edition.

One day I calculated the net worth of all my GW/FW goods. It comes out to over $15,000. Thats not counting all the innumerable hobby supplies that I've bought over the years. (Christ I have a problem)

And yes - it has to do with the fact that I just HAVE to have 30 swooping hawks, 30 warp spiders and 30 Striking Scorpions. Not because they're GOOD, but because they are fun to play games with or the models are awesome.

I just spent over $150 on bits to make a land raider Ares complete with FW extra armor and doors. Think I'll ever use that in a tournament? Nope. Never.

I have a squad of GK termies here, on a bunch of custom bases with the most retarded weapon loadout outfitted. Why? Because they models look cool.

Very rarely do I ever buy something because the unit is OMFGWTFBBQPWN in a game. Most of the tourney players I know, on top of being insufferable pricks around the old LGS, buy only what they need to make the list that they want for the next tournament, and often on a bit-by-bit basis or from internet retailers. The only industry that they seem to keep floating is the commissioned painting services. Personally I wasn't shedding a tear when those guys made the jump to warmachine.

I know what you mean about buying stuff just for their army, I was like that recently, but not really through choice. Before I went to university this last year, I didn't have much income. It meant if I wanted to have fun, and be in for a chance of winning, I had to be careful with what I buy. As a student who doesn't waste money on booze, I can buy more warhammer than I could before.

However, My point was that my local manager gave two reasons they don't do tournies. The tourny gamers don't spend enough, and the rules are cinematic.

Tourny gamers spend loads on models, often buying bits to convert their army, or at least most tourney gamers I've met. And you can have a balanced rules set with cinematic moments. The only time you say the Cinematics come before balance is if you're lazy at writing.

[Tynskel]

Every tourney gamer I know, has bought new armies for nearly every tournament. They provide solid income, and even the regular non tourney gamers play to actually win once in a while. People can't say the game shouldn't be balanced, and a perfectly balanced game, is perfect for tournaments.

they buy their army on ebay...
Almost every tournament player I have met does not buy from GW. They buy pre-used models. Now, some of them clean 'em up.

Seriously, GW wants people like me. I like tournaments, but I haven't had time to play... however, I purchase models all the time, and not just 'tournament' models.

[Uncle Nutsy]

Very rarely do I ever buy something because the unit is OMFGWTFBBQPWN in a game. Most of the tourney players I know, on top of being insufferable pricks around the old LGS, buy only what they need to make the list that they want for the next tournament, and often on a bit-by-bit basis or from internet retailers. The only industry that they seem to keep floating is the commissioned painting services. Personally I wasn't shedding a tear when those guys made the jump to warmachine.

warmachine. lol. you just described my one roomate. sold a bunch of 40k stuff off for a collection of warmachine. It's been sitting on the shelf for two months now, collecting dust because no one around here plays warmachine. It's kind of funny, really.


I still have my 40k stuff. my triple ravagers, my jetfighter (bought it because it looked cool and it twisted up the internet, hehehe), two venoms (venom spam is boring), a ton of footslogging warriors, one raider, NO wyches, a handful of hellions (because cmon.. dudes on skyboards with double bladed polearms), five incubi, the duke and baron sathypants.

my tau stuff, well.. a boatload of firewarriors, three tanks, one broadside, three suits and... that's about it.