I Hope Matt Ward Wrote 6th Edition!

[Chris Copeland]

I like Matt Ward. Codex: Necrons is one of the best army books I've ever read... the background is interesting and solid and the army is nicely balanced. Three cheers for Matt Ward!

“But, wait!” you say. “What about the Gray Knights?” Ward is just a human. I think (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion?s=t) he really screwed up Codex: Gray Knights... I like the fluff but the army is far from well balanced. However, his editors, playtesters, and supervisors also screwed up. Codex: GK never should have made it out the door in the form it did... Codex: Necrons shows what can happen when he and his supervisors are at the tops of their games.

He seems to have come a long way as a game-designer. Codex: Necrons is the proof. I hope Ward took some of that goodness and poured it into 6th Edition. I hope he wrote 6th Edition. Cheers. Cope

PS Some of you might think that I am trying to be ironical (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ironic?q=ironical#ironic__3). I assure you that I am not. I really do like Matt Ward.

[eldargal]

I wouldn't object, he did an excellent job with 8th edition WFB.

[Wolfshade]

I do have to agree with you to some extent, some of the stuff is lovely and fluffy and certain stretches the possibilities of the ruleset

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

He spells it as "Mat Ward"

Me and a friend have been discussing Ward for quite a while, and we've mellowed out with him somewhat. I hope that he's at least contributed to it. (as long as that contribution doesn't involve Raven Guard)

[DrLove42]

He is very good. he does tend to marine fanboi ism a little but should be ok.

Id still rather it wss Phil Kelly (6's be upon him)

[Wolfshade]

He spells it as "Mat Ward"
In Codex Necrons & BA its Matthew Ward

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Informally speaking.

[GrogDaTyrant]

Yeah, he's sunshine and roses... provided you play only armies he likes. I personally would rather he didn't write 6th, as I find 8th rather dull and uninteresting. And he apparently hasn't learned anything from his days of writing 7th ed Army Books.

My viewpoint ultimately is that Ward, Cruddace, and Kelly are all a case of 'pick your poison'. I don't like any of those 3, and feel that they're all terrible game designers. Especially Kelly. Oh sure, he's good with Eldar of any variety, but I personally don't appreciate what he did with the Orks.

[UltramarineFan]

I do agree but I wish all the rules writers would work on the main rulebook. It would be using up manpower but surely it would provide a better result overall?

[Wildeybeast]

I wouldn't object, he did an excellent job with 8th edition WFB.

Seconded, though I have feeling Jervis will have at least ahve had a hand in writing 6th.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, he's sunshine and roses... provided you play only armies he likes.

I think it's more of a case that Mat Ward writes more over the top than the other writers, and so it seems like he plays favorites, but only because he hasn't written all of the current codices. In the books he has written, he's been pretty consistent with 'this army is awesome".


Especially Kelly.

Yep, Kelley has been writing OP books long before Mat Ward ever showed up.

[Deadlift]

I said the very same thing in another thread awhile ago, I like Matthew Wards work very much. As a self confessed power armour fan I have Blood angels, Salamanders and Grey Knights army's. So I am familiar with his rules and generally think they are fun.

Yes the GK book is op, but only in the hands of a knob head. I play GK and use the models I like. An over equiped NDK always make an appearance because they look cooler to me than psy dreads, etc etc.

[eldargal]

But Kelly has also written some of the best, too. Eldar, Dark Eldar and Vampire Counts for example. Even his WoC book which is considered OP is in line with the Dark Elf, WoC (by Ward) and Daemon books of 7th edition. Really only Space Wolves stands out as OP in my opinion and it hasn't got a thing on GK.

[fuzzbuket]

to the OP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUP3A9imOYU

[GrogDaTyrant]

I think it's more of a case that Mat Ward writes more over the top than the other writers, and so it seems like he plays favorites, but only because he hasn't written all of the current codices. In the books he has written, he's been pretty consistent with 'this army is awesome".

You must not be very familiar with 7th edition Fantasy or Lord of the Rings. The latter, I don't blame you on. But Ward does indeed play favorites. All someone has to do is look at how royally screwed the Orcs and Goblins were in 7th ed, due in no small part to Animosity making each unit have a "1 in 3 chance to act pants-on-head retarded". Not to mention removing 2/3rds of the magic armor, and all but 1 (very generic) ward-save item.

Then there were chaos daemons...


Yep, Kelley has been writing OP books long before Mat Ward ever showed up.

Agreed completely. Though iirc Ward and Kelly have been working as rules-writers for roughly the same amount of time, just on different game systems.

[Lexington]

Codex: Necrons shows what can happen when he and his supervisors are at the tops of their games.
Middling, incoherent writing that makes a nonsense army out of a once-interesting one? Sounds like they need better supervisors, then. :p

It's also kinda weird that people will blame "supervisors" for letting Ward's particular brand of uselessness out of the Studio. He's not a caged animal or squalling child. He's a grown-assed man, and if he can't do his job, he shouldn't be doing it.

[MaltonNecromancer]

I like Matt Ward.

I think the intertubes (and BoLs in particular) is guilty of an assumption that all armies should be perfectly balanced against each other - that is, that any particular army should have an equal chance of beating any other army and it should come down to generalship.

This is an assumption I disagree with. To take a non-wargaming example, I love the Street Fighter series; I have been a massive fan since Street Fighter 2 back in the early 90's, and since 3, my character of choice is Hugo. Now, Hugo is not an easy character to play with - he's awkard and weird, and only works if you practice a lot. Which I do, and therefore I tend to win with him.

But everyone seems to love Ken, because he's brutally efficient and a combo machine. So does that mean Ken is the best character? Not remotely. Ken, Ryu, Akuma, Sakura, Dan... these are all the Shotoclones, who all have Dragon Punch, Hurrican Kick, Fireball moves, in much the same way as Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Space Wolves and the rest have Bolters, Rhinos, Power Armour, etc... The Grey Knights are basically Shin Akuma; unbalanced, and capable of decimating an unprepared player. Does that mean they shouldn't be in the game?

Of course not. To Ward's detractors, I suggest taking off your tournament goggles, and see the Grey Knights for what they are: the beginner's army. They are for the eleven and twelve year old boys who are new to the hobby. They are low financial cost and high damage, because you know what? If you're eleven and hideously beaten in a game by a much older boy (or man) who gives no quarter (and we all know those kinds of emotional pinheads), you're unlikely to come back for game number 2. You're also likely to badmouth the game to your friends. (And as we all know, word-of-mouth is the only real advertising Games Workshop uses. If all the kids at school decide 40K is lame because the cool kid lost to some emotionally stunted "person" in a GW store, and he's telling them it's lame, well, that's a ton of lost revenue for the company).

As for the ridiculous fluff, let me posit a situation. You're eleven, and very naive. You've not watched "Aliens", "Avatar" or anything truly cool yet. You still unironically love Star Wars episode 1 for no more reason than it's got lightsabres and explosions (and please, no comments about how you knew it sucked even when you were that young - you don't need to tell us how cool you are).

Now, you're shown this game and it's pretty cool, and you see these guys who are basically jedi in massive power armour with machine guns that shoot rockets and they fight demons. (Which is spelt "daemons" for that super-cool edge of real-world occultism.) You then read the fluff which has them tearing off heads and carving names and all that other nonsense.

Tell me honestly - how many pre-teen boys would be able to resist all that awesome?

As older gamers, of course we can see it for the painful narm it is, but that's because they aren't written for us. The Grey Knights are perfectly designed for very young, pre-teen boys taking their first tentative steps into gaming because:

They are easy to paint and have look relatively good.
They are quick to paint.
They are financially cheaper than most other armies.
Damn but those are some cool sculpts.
You can win games with less skill than most armies, which is good for when the local Neckbeard sees the nervous little boy and thinks nothing but "Fresh meat to feed my ego!"
They're everything awesome about the Jedi (lightsabres, psychic power, etc...) but times a million.


As for the Necrons, I think the new codex is great. Some nice synergies, it's not just another 3+ power armour force, it has a totally different way of suppressing enemy tanks, etc... It just works.

It is my genuine belief that Matt Ward's codexes and fluff are very clever pieces of work - especially as a business venture.

If you look at Grey Knights and Marines as the beginner's armies, and the Xenos forces as the armies that more mature players are supposed to pick up as they tire of endless 3+ armour saves, then the issue of balance is less one of tournament play, and far more one of an individual gamer's journey through the hobby, which makes far more sense for a business.

I suppose I'm just using different criteria to the rest of the community, but I'm not sorry.

[Brandoncbaker]

Awesome post above,very true.well written also..cheers

[D'Natagal]

To MaltonNecromancer,

**BRAVO**

I believe you hit that nail squarely on the head. That just might be one of the greatest posts I have read on this forum!

-Paul

[Wildeybeast]

I like Matt Ward.

I think the intertubes (and BoLs in particular) is guilty of an assumption that all armies should be perfectly balanced against each other - that is, that any particular army should have an equal chance of beating any other army and it should come down to generalship.

This is an assumption I disagree with. To take a non-wargaming example, I love the Street Fighter series; I have been a massive fan since Street Fighter 2 back in the early 90's, and since 3, my character of choice is Hugo. Now, Hugo is not an easy character to play with - he's awkard and weird, and only works if you practice a lot. Which I do, and therefore I tend to win with him.

But everyone seems to love Ken, because he's brutally efficient and a combo machine. So does that mean Ken is the best character? Not remotely. Ken, Ryu, Akuma, Sakura, Dan... these are all the Shotoclones, who all have Dragon Punch, Hurrican Kick, Fireball moves, in much the same way as Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Space Wolves and the rest have Bolters, Rhinos, Power Armour, etc... The Grey Knights are basically Shin Akuma; unbalanced, and capable of decimating an unprepared player. Does that mean they shouldn't be in the game?

Of course not. To Ward's detractors, I suggest taking off your tournament goggles, and see the Grey Knights for what they are: the beginner's army. They are for the eleven and twelve year old boys who are new to the hobby. They are low financial cost and high damage, because you know what? If you're eleven and hideously beaten in a game by a much older boy (or man) who gives no quarter (and we all know those kinds of emotional pinheads), you're unlikely to come back for game number 2. You're also likely to badmouth the game to your friends. (And as we all know, word-of-mouth is the only real advertising Games Workshop uses. If all the kids at school decide 40K is lame because the cool kid lost to some emotionally stunted "person" in a GW store, and he's telling them it's lame, well, that's a ton of lost revenue for the company).

As for the ridiculous fluff, let me posit a situation. You're eleven, and very naive. You've not watched "Aliens", "Avatar" or anything truly cool yet. You still unironically love Star Wars episode 1 for no more reason than it's got lightsabres and explosions (and please, no comments about how you knew it sucked even when you were that young - you don't need to tell us how cool you are).

Now, you're shown this game and it's pretty cool, and you see these guys who are basically jedi in massive power armour with machine guns that shoot rockets and they fight demons. (Which is spelt "daemons" for that super-cool edge of real-world occultism.) You then read the fluff which has them tearing off heads and carving names and all that other nonsense.

Tell me honestly - how many pre-teen boys would be able to resist all that awesome?

As older gamers, of course we can see it for the painful narm it is, but that's because they aren't written for us. The Grey Knights are perfectly designed for very young, pre-teen boys taking their first tentative steps into gaming because:

They are easy to paint and have look relatively good.
They are quick to paint.
They are financially cheaper than most other armies.
Damn but those are some cool sculpts.
You can win games with less skill than most armies, which is good for when the local Neckbeard sees the nervous little boy and thinks nothing but "Fresh meat to feed my ego!"
They're everything awesome about the Jedi (lightsabres, psychic power, etc...) but times a million.


As for the Necrons, I think the new codex is great. Some nice synergies, it's not just another 3+ power armour force, it has a totally different way of suppressing enemy tanks, etc... It just works.

It is my genuine belief that Matt Ward's codexes and fluff are very clever pieces of work - especially as a business venture.

If you look at Grey Knights and Marines as the beginner's armies, and the Xenos forces as the armies that more mature players are supposed to pick up as they tire of endless 3+ armour saves, then the issue of balance is less one of tournament play, and far more one of an individual gamer's journey through the hobby, which makes far more sense for a business.

I suppose I'm just using different criteria to the rest of the community, but I'm not sorry.

Two objections if I may.

1) The cool kid does not play Warhammer. He is in a variety of sports teams (or possibly a band) and goes to parties with girls. If he does play Warhammer, he instantly loses his 'cool' status. :)

2) Armies should be balanced so that any army can beat any other (whether they actually are is a seperate matter). That is not to say that they shouldn't have very different aesthetics, army composition and playstyles, which appeal to different gamers. On a basic level, a horde army should have just as much chance of winning as an elite one. Of course it will depend on the actual units selected and the skills of the general, but Cruddace's preference for synergy should be just as competitive as Ward's for big killy stuff. Armies should never ever be designed so that one is only useful in the hands of a vet where as another can be used to deadly effect by a complete noob. They should always be balanced and if any rules writer has deliberately written a codex which is easier to win with, especially for commercial reasons (as you are suggesting Ward has), they deserve all the criticism they get. Although you are trying to defend him, you are actually doing him a far greater disservice by suggesting deliberate unfairness and of being a thrall to GW paymasters than those who accuse him of mere ineptitude (which does not include me).

[Denzark]

1. I was cool and played 40K*.

2. Good shout Malton but aren't necrons also somewhat easy to paint?

3. What are these GRAY Knights I was reading about, are they like GREY Knights? Never seen a GRAY knights codex.




* I lie I was actually prone to bouts of gratuitous violence and could therefore be left to conduct my teenage affairs including 40K with a minimum of derogatory comment. Before you kick off, this is simply Darwin my friends, simply Darwin.

[Mr Mystery]

On point 2 there...any army CAN beat any army. Simple fact. Now, can any player beat any player? Totally different quandry.

Now, as long as they've done for 40k what 8th Edition did for Fantasy, I will be one very happy bunny.

Well looking forward to meethin the Gents up the pub with our shiny new rulebooks! I've roped in 3 already, and there remains the promise of more. Best bit is, it's a group that hasn't gamed together in a long time. A long time.

And at the end of the day, that is everything this Hobby is about. Me spending quality relaxing time with my mates!

[Deadlift]

So basically because I like Grey Knights, the fluff and the models, I am 12 years old.

It's a nice read Malton but I am neither a power gamer or a 12 year old kid. I get what your saying and I agree with your points about balance.

But I am "cool" and I am 37. :o

[GrogDaTyrant]

I think the intertubes (and BoLs in particular) is guilty of an assumption that all armies should be perfectly balanced against each other - that is, that any particular army should have an equal chance of beating any other army and it should come down to generalship.

This is an assumption I disagree with.

A lot of that assumption comes from people who are well-versed in other game systems, particularly ones where balance is fine-tuned and painstakingly maintained. Because ultimately few players like playing a faction/army/whatever that has everything going against it before it's even out of the starting gate (see ref. Orks in Battlefleet Gothic, where up until recently even most of the die-hard Ork players didn't enjoy playing the fleet).

Now "perfect balance" is pretty much an impossibility. And I don't think anyone quite wants that, as the only true way to achieve it would be to not bother with separate factions at all. However, a fine-tuned system (that doesn't play favorites), and maintains a very close level of balance, is certainly achievable. And for me personally it makes for a much more enjoyable game system to play. The last game I saw GW do that with, was Epic. Which unsurprisingly drew a lot of it's rules from historical wargames.

In any case it should come to no surprise that when a game is rife with balance issues and in some cases blatant rules favoritism, that you end up with armies that are unpopular and leave players feeling like they picked the wrong army. And that's never good.

[L192837465]

Because ultimately few players like playing a faction/army/whatever that has everything going against it before it's even out of the starting gate (see ref. Orks in Battlefleet Gothic, where up until recently even most of the die-hard Ork players didn't enjoy playing the fleet).



What you are arguing is not "poor army writing" it's player reference. Orks have a BRUTAL fleet (ram ships are MURDER to Chaos and Imperial fleets!)

If you want to talk about imbalance in BFG, lets talk about Necrons.

Otherwise, you're arguing a subjective idea to a "relatively and well thought out" objective* argument.

*not really objective, but far less subjective than some people just not wanting to play

[Mr Mystery]

On the subject of balance, I would like to draw a comparisson between the perception of balance on the Intratubes, a child diagnosed with ADHD being prescribed Ritalin.

Now, having worked in a School at one point, I can pretty much point out kids who genuinely have ADHD, and those who have the altogether far more serious Crap Parent Syndrome. Ritalin for many acts more as a placebo than an actual drug, and for all I know about it's chemistry, it might very well be just that. Some kids just kept on acting up, not because they have ADHD, but because their parents have allowed it to become an excuse. Lines like 'it's not you being naughty, it's the condition'. Twaddle. Sure a kid with genuine ADHD will struggle to pay attention, but the second you make it an excuse, you're just taking away accountability.

And I see much the same in online chingwags. Player A has started off well enough with a new army. They're usually a newcomer to gaming in general, and are yet to learn some of the tricks of the trade. Much the same as a kid suddenly thrust into the social nightmare known as school. And they won't do that well to start with. Let's face it, nobody does start off well. EVERYONE is better at the game than you. They know the rules better. They've likely faced your style of force before. But you haven't. Being able to read and predict your opponents army by it's look on the table only comes with hard won experience. Now sooner or later, it's human nature to get fed up of being slapped around. So you look for advice. Woe betide those who look online for wisdom. There's precious little of it. Post up your army on certain websites, and rather than tips on how to get the most out of what you had, it's made clear you're a moron, and you should use this specific list instead. This isn't advice. This is hobby placebo. It's NOT you that's crap. It's your list. NOBODY could ever possibly win with that last. Here. Have this ritalin list. It'll make you think you're getting better, but you're not. You're just using a dull cookiee cutter list which is nasty to face, and ultimately very forgiving even in the incompetent hands of a new comer

How is either of these scenarios beneficial to their relative societies? Both take away personal accountability, and do nothing to develop the individual.

[MaltonNecromancer]

So basically because I like Grey Knights, the fluff and the models, I am 12 years old.

It's a nice read Malton but I am neither a power gamer or a 12 year old kid.

And not all fans of "My Litte Pony: Friendship Is Magic" are young girls. The "Brony" community is large and extensive.

I like Grey Knights quite a lot. I liked them since I first read about them back in the Lost and Damned supplements. I now have an extenisve Grey Knight army because they are awesome. Nothing I have said takes away from the army's awesomness, yes? It just reframes their "imbalance".


In any case it should come to no surprise that when a game is rife with balance issues and in some cases blatant rules favoritism, that you end up with armies that are unpopular and leave players feeling like they picked the wrong army. And that's never good.

Hence the Grey Knights - a perfect choice for beginners. And apart from the power of the Grey Knights (and the misstep of Tyranids), the 5th edition codicies have been undeniably the most balanced against each other.

[GrogDaTyrant]

What you are arguing is not "poor army writing" it's player reference. Orks have a BRUTAL fleet (ram ships are MURDER to Chaos and Imperial fleets!)

If you want to talk about imbalance in BFG, lets talk about Necrons.

Only now are Orks remotely worth playing in Gothic. Ram Ships, while cheap, are still slow as molasses and playing against Orks was more of an exercise in target priority than an actual game. Saying Ram Ships were good against Chaos and Imperial is a joke, because those were the two base average fleets in the game. In fact, they were the only fleets to even bother playing the game with if you were an Ork player. The Orks were the low-end of balance in Gothic, with Necrons being on the 'stupidly excessive' side. Just beyond that of Eldar and Dark Eldar.



5th edition codicies have been undeniably the most balanced against each other.

Well, of course... It's not hard to imagine why an edition where half the codices have been space marines of some kind would be relatively balanced. Especially when one of the other armies you didn't already mention is also MEQ. That leaves 3 wild-card armies that were not an MEQ of some kind... IG, Dark Eldar, and Nids. Dark Eldar and IG were both written by writers that really loved that particular army/race. The army most radically out of place in an edition that excessively penalized fearless hordes and made vehicles more durable, was of course the Nids.

Go figure.

[Mr Mystery]

Dude. Necrons are hardly MEQ.

The army has entirely different strengths compared to Marines, and operates in a completely unique manner.

But if we're talking sweeping generalisations...

[Wolfshade]

Jervis wrote an interesting article a long while ago about rule writing and play testing. He basically said that when you design a new game/codex you have in your mind how you want to play them and the rules reflect that and if player testers are too familiar with the army theme then they play as intended. The example was in Blood Bowl he plays the game to be a long passing game, but most players would agree that a ball in hand game is the most efficient.
You can't create lists which are perfectly equal, some say that meltas are too powerful/ too easily spammable but situationally can be rendered almost useless against a low T horde army, it is only because people play a meta game that such builds become strong or overly strong

[GrogDaTyrant]

Dude. Necrons are hardly MEQ.

The army has entirely different strengths compared to Marines, and operates in a completely unique manner.

But if we're talking sweeping generalisations...

The only major changes to the army as a hole, was the downgrade to 4+ saves on warriors, and downgrade for immortals to t5. Aside from that, they're still mostly 4's across the board, with Initiative 2. They received some new toys, light vehicles, and skimming transports, but they were prior to their more recent release considered very much an MEQ army. They've changed now to some degree, but we might as well not count Grey Knights or Black Templar as MEQ if we're splitting hair about having different strengths compared to other marine armies.

[bfmusashi]

Damn Malton, that's double points for working both Street Fighter and My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic in.

[Lexington]

I suppose I'm just using different criteria to the rest of the community, but I'm not sorry.
Well, sorry or no, it's not very good criteria, is it? People play 40K to enjoy the experience, not to marvel at GW's business logic.

That said, the strategy you're outlining here isn't particularly realistic, being mostly based on extreme caricatures of both players and perception. The Grey Knights aren't problematic at the "beginner" level so much as an intermediate competitive level, where spamming and rules trickery come into play. Rarely will you find a fresh player - especially the young-un's you're championing - walking around with a triplicate of Rifleman Dreads, batches of Purifiers, a Draigo list kitted out for wound-allocation shenanigans, Rad-happy Inquistorial forces, or any of the other problematic permutations the Codex. They'll come into a store with some middling mix of standard squads that your average mouth-breathing sociopath will be able to knock off the table with the same ease as a Tyranid force. The GK are a problematic Codex for whatever reason - probably GW's publicly-stated disinterest in good rules design - but it's not because of an attempt to sell to the kids.

Background-wise, though? Maybe? I doubt it. The whole Studio's working under the same directive of shallow battles dominated by superlative special characters, and none of them are adding anything good to the lore these days. Ward's just provided the laziest execution and worst prose hand.

[Mr Mystery]

Background-wise, though? Maybe? I doubt it. The whole Studio's working under the same directive of shallow battles dominated by superlative special characters, and none of them are adding anything good to the lore these days. Ward's just provided the laziest execution and worst prose hand.

And this is different to history how? I can tell you the names of the most renowned Generals of WW2, but other ranks? Nope. Well. I say nope. I could tell you what my Grandparents did, and their Brothers. But the rest? They don't get remembered in the same way.

I really like what they're doing with the current background. The Codecies are focussing on recent history for the most part, and as I buy each and every codex, I find it pleasing to read through the time lines, tallying various events together. Some stuff isn't fully explored yet, and could well be the harbinger of a return to campaign packs in one guise or another.

If you want in depth background, then the Black Library is there. How anyone can say the background is getting weaker when you have the Horus Heresy series, and dare I say it....Space Marine Battles out there baffles me. Hell, even the Xenos get some loving. Have you read Aspect Warrior? It's a fine book! I won't go into too many details here for fear of being spoilerific, but the background IS being expanded upon.

The stuff committed to Codex is there as hobby inspiration. It gives a glimmer of what happens outside the usual hierarchy, or helps to set just how wide ranging the variety can be within a single race.

One could say that with qualiity background, and a flexible main list, there is no real need for appendix Codecies which essentially just shake up the FoC, and cost you £8 for the privilege. Hell, unless you play exclusively and extensively in the tournament scene, the Codex is just there to provide you with the stats and rules. Two players arranging their own game can agree to any FoC, or to ignore it all together.

Sorry. Went off at a tangent there.....

[the jeske]

Rarely will you find a fresh player - especially the young-un's you're championing - walking around with a triplicate of Rifleman Dreads, batches of Purifiers, a Draigo list kitted out for wound-allocation shenanigans, Rad-happy Inquistorial forces, or any of the other problematic permutations the Codex. They'll come into a store with some middling mix of standard squads that your average mouth-breathing sociopath will be able to knock off the table with the same ease as a Tyranid force
I wish I could play where you play . here it is . new guys low cash =draigo . vet switching to GK cortez build. second army done for fun . draigo or puris. I have never seen anyone build an army with terminators , strikes[unless he was spaming razors and it was under 1500pts] .



How anyone can say the background is getting weaker when you have the Horus Heresy series, and dare I say it
because if it isnt in the codex the chance for someone to actualy see/read it is slim for rather large part of the community , for example . some translations of the HH [or any BL books] suck realy hard , and I mean like realy, it is impossible to read proof read them , not to mention read for enjoyment. You guys think that the GK or SW dex sounds bad in english ? trust me there are worse.


Two players arranging their own game can agree to any FoC, or to ignore it all together.
and that generaly doesnt happen as a rule . If GW had to FAQ the DA/BT dex , because people were still not letting their "friends" use the more up to date rules for sm gear , then coming to a shop and trusting that people will let you modify your FoC or use FW models , is a like puting your money in to a spanish bank.

[MaltonNecromancer]

People play 40K to enjoy the experience

I think you'll find that that that was my argument: Grey Knights are an excellent "entry-point" army, very forgiving for new players. This allows all players to enjoy the game.

I think it's just a question of putting yourself in GW's shoes. They genuinely do not care about the tournament scene. This means that the codicies will always be, to some lesser or greater degree, unbalanced. This means moaning about the imbalance is kind of like moaning that the sky is still blue. They've explicitly said it's not balanced for tournament play, so why complain? Accept that it's part of the game, and either deal with it, or find a new game. I hear Warmahordes is well balanced.

I also know that if you don't like Grey Knights, Dark Eldar and Necrons are two extremely powerful codicies.

There will always be a "King Of The Meta" codex. At the moment it's the Grey Knights' turn. It'll probably be Chaos Marines next.

As far as Mat Ward being the King Of All Evil? He wrote a codex that some people don't like. He also made Necrons awesome. He's not Captain Fail McSuckypants or the saviour of the game. His work is both interesting in game terms and flawed. Frankly it's more exciting than the previous stuff. As for his "poorly written fluff", it's no worse than anyone else's. If I want to read quality writing, well... shall we say that a GW codex won't EVER be my first port of call. Not while Caitlin Moran and Neil Gaiman are still alive.

[Mr Mystery]

I wish I could play where you play . here it is . new guys low cash =draigo . vet switching to GK cortez build. second army done for fun . draigo or puris. I have never seen anyone build an army with terminators , strikes[unless he was spaming razors and it was under 1500pts] .


because if it isnt in the codex the chance for someone to actualy see/read it is slim for rather large part of the community , for example . some translations of the HH [or any BL books] suck realy hard , and I mean like realy, it is impossible to read proof read them , not to mention read for enjoyment. You guys think that the GK or SW dex sounds bad in english ? trust me there are worse.


and that generaly doesnt happen as a rule . If GW had to FAQ the DA/BT dex , because people were still not letting their "friends" use the more up to date rules for sm gear , then coming to a shop and trusting that people will let you modify your FoC or use FW models , is a like puting your money in to a spanish bank.

Define rather large, and provide citation. Round my way, the locals are nuts for the Black Library. Store regualrly sells out on release day (provided Waterstones haven't jumped the gun. Again).

And if your local scene is that strict, get a board at home. My flat is tiny. I have to push the sofa into the kitchenette to get my 6x4 down, but get it down I do! The more you depend upon official settings, the more you are restricting your hobby experience. Even if you have no room for a board (Which is perfectly feasible) then you still have the various scenario books out there to shake things up. Make use of them!

[Mr Mystery]

I think you'll find that that that was my argument: Grey Knights are an excellent "entry-point" army, very forgiving for new players. This allows all players to enjoy the game.

I think it's just a question of putting yourself in GW's shoes. They genuinely do not care about the tournament scene. This means that the codicies will always be, to some lesser or greater degree, unbalanced. This means moaning about the imbalance is kind of like moaning that the sky is still blue. They've explicitly said it's not balanced for tournament play, so why complain? Accept that it's part of the game, and either deal with it, or find a new game. I hear Warmahordes is well balanced.



I see it more as complaining that your Ford Focus doesn't have the same acceleration as a MacLaren F1. It's not designed to. And you knew that when you bought it. Sure, they coudl do that, but then....that's not what they intended for the product.

[Uberbeast]

Ward could probably contribute some great stuff to the 6th edition so long as he's not having the final say. He may have learned some stuff from the disaster that was 8th edition WFB, and that experience could well lead to some good ideas for 6th 40k.

[gendoikari87]

I wouldn't object, he did an excellent job with 8th edition WFB.

That's all I need to know. 8th was a very fine book. I think people get caught up in how mary sue GK fluff was. Well get over it, they are the best of the best of the best of the best.... with psychic powers.

[Foosh]

Long live Graham McNeill! lol
Please come back! I do NOT want Ward fudging up the next Templar codex!

[Kawauso]

That's all I need to know. 8th was a very fine book. I think people get caught up in how mary sue GK fluff was..

That term gets thrown around a lot...GK aren't really a good example of it.



There are a number of instances in the fluff from the codex which depicts them in an unflattering light:
Their pragmatism manifests itself in ruthless efficiency when it comes to how they view and treat their allies. They are knights in shining armour, but they have a -very- dark side to them.

Their hubris allows them to think that they alone are capable of being entrusted with some of the gravest threats to humanity, consequences be damned - even if this runs the risk of them -becoming- a grave threat to humanity (i.e. capturing daemons to stash on Titan - what happens if they get out? Also, purifiers like Crowe wielding daemon weapons which could come back to bite them in the ***).

They don't come across as always winning/getting their way, and sometimes they win only by the skin of their teeth (Space Wolves openly defied them...and are still around, a number of their victories are pyrric in nature, etc.).

They are supposedly incorruptible, but then why do they have to fight off temptation from Chaos at all? There are a number of examples where this occurs...and while I may be drawing on some instances of old fluff, I seem to recall that some of their psychic/Chaos protection is there as much to -kill them- if they're at risk of corruption as it is to shield them from corruption to begin with.



Yes, the fluff is superlative and over-the-top. I think you'll find pretty much every codex is slanted that way towards the faction it's depicting, however.

A few goofy examples in the GK codex do not an entire book of bad fluff make.

But maybe I'm in the minority: I think all of Draigo's stuff (bar the thing with Mortarion) is pretty much what it should be. :)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Mat Ward is a fine writer, the only let down he has is the Grey Knight codex. Even then, that's only on two things; Khornate Knights and Draigo.
I just don't understand how Draigo is still the Supreme Grand Master, he spends most of his time IN THE WARP. Y'know, that thing that the Grey Knights hate?
His fluff is just silly, if he was JUST an expert master daemon blaster then I would be happy. Get rid of all of this M'kar gay curse thing, it's stupid!
As for Crowe? He's a badass on so many levels. :D

[Thiazi]

it is only because people play a meta game that such builds become strong or overly strong

it needed repeating.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

In regards to what?

[Wildeybeast]

I think it's just a question of putting yourself in GW's shoes. They genuinely do not care about the tournament scene. This means that the codicies will always be, to some lesser or greater degree, unbalanced. This means moaning about the imbalance is kind of like moaning that the sky is still blue. They've explicitly said it's not balanced for tournament play, so why complain? Accept that it's part of the game, and either deal with it, or find a new game. I hear Warmahordes is well balanced.

I disagree entirely. If they truly did not care about the tournament scene they would not bother to run so many of their own at Warhammer World. It is low down on their list of priorities, yes, because they are a model making company who produce rules to encourage people to buy more models.

Secondly, GW not caring about tournaments is no reason for imbalanced rules. All the 8th ed army books are well balanced agaisnt each other, with none of the 'codex arms race' that has occured in 40K. I firmly believe GW has learnt a lot from the current ed of fantasy which they will employ in 40k, one of which will be codex balance.

Thirdly, just because the rules are not designed for competitive use does not people should nto complain when they are inherently unfair. People like myself who play purely for fun recognise that the most fun games are the really close fought ones between too even matched armies, not ones where you know you are in for a hiding as soon as your opponent pulls out his codex.



As for his "poorly written fluff", it's no worse than anyone else's. If I want to read quality writing, well... shall we say that a GW codex won't EVER be my first port of call. Not while Caitlin Moran and Neil Gaiman are still alive.

I do however agree enitrely with this point!

[gendoikari87]

That term gets thrown around a lot...GK aren't really a good example of it.



There are a number of instances in the fluff from the codex which depicts them in an unflattering light:
Their pragmatism manifests itself in ruthless efficiency when it comes to how they view and treat their allies. They are knights in shining armour, but they have a -very- dark side to them.

Their hubris allows them to think that they alone are capable of being entrusted with some of the gravest threats to humanity, consequences be damned - even if this runs the risk of them -becoming- a grave threat to humanity (i.e. capturing daemons to stash on Titan - what happens if they get out? Also, purifiers like Crowe wielding daemon weapons which could come back to bite them in the ***).

They don't come across as always winning/getting their way, and sometimes they win only by the skin of their teeth (Space Wolves openly defied them...and are still around, a number of their victories are pyrric in nature, etc.).

They are supposedly incorruptible, but then why do they have to fight off temptation from Chaos at all? There are a number of examples where this occurs...and while I may be drawing on some instances of old fluff, I seem to recall that some of their psychic/Chaos protection is there as much to -kill them- if they're at risk of corruption as it is to shield them from corruption to begin with.



Yes, the fluff is superlative and over-the-top. I think you'll find pretty much every codex is slanted that way towards the faction it's depicting, however.

A few goofy examples in the GK codex do not an entire book of bad fluff make.

But maybe I'm in the minority: I think all of Draigo's stuff (bar the thing with Mortarion) is pretty much what it should be. :)

I was specifically referring to draigo.

[Kawauso]

Get rid of all of this M'kar gay curse thing, it's stupid!


It would be awesome if M'kar cursed Draigo with 'the gay'. :P
Then maybe those Daemonettes would have actually succeeded at something other than Draigo chopping them to bits.



You're right about it being strange that he's still 'Supreme Grand Master' though.
I imagine it's just an honourary thing, really. There's an elected SGM in his place, but whenever he stumbles out of the Warp the GK present cede command of their forces to him. Because he must be doing something right.

Wouldn't they be surprised if one day he shows up tainted by Chaos and leads an entire GK strike force to their doom... :P
If he could be corrupted without his brain boiling, first, I mean.




I was specifically referring to draigo.


So, not GK fluff, then, as you'd said...just Draigo's.

[gendoikari87]

So, not GK fluff, then, as you'd said...just Draigo's.

Yeah, I was using it as short hand, seeing as that's most peoples problem with GK fluff. To the point that it's become meme.

[bfmusashi]

Draigo is still Supreme Grand Master as he did not get sent on his warp walk (for cup checking M'kar) until 999.M41. The warp is a place where time doesn't count and there is no mention of when his first 'summoning' occurred and may have been before he was banished in the first place. As much as people dislike the Draigo story (even though it doesn't break any of 40k's rules) it is not nearly as glaring an error as Mortain being both an agricultural world and a fortress world. There are other things that don't add up in there but I can't recall them right now.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

It would be awesome if M'kar cursed Draigo with 'the gay'. :P
Then maybe those Daemonettes would have actually succeeded at something other than Draigo chopping them to bits.

If instead of blood he bleeds a deadly corrosive acid, you've got a gay!

[Kawauso]

Wat?

[eldargal]

Quote from American Dad.

[Kawauso]

Ah. Went right over my head. :p

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

It's actually Family Guy. :p

[Wolfshade]

Burn,

but that's for the explaination I was at a loss

[Learn2Eel]

Up until a few weeks ago, I thought the Grey Knights were a severely over-powered codex and I flat out refused to play anyone who had them unless it was a) one of my friends or b) someone I knew wasn't taking a cheese list they got off the internet.
Now I'm writing dual Storm-Raven lists with psyflemen dreadnoughts.
My justification? It is a 16 model 1500 point army that needs some ranged anti-tank power. As cheesy as psyflemen dreadnoughts are, Grey Knights don't have much else that can really deal with tanks at long-range as effectively. The Vindicare is decent until he fails two saves, which is pretty easy actually.

My only problem with Grey Knights is if you want to write semi-competitive or tournament lists it is very difficult to not use the more cheesy elements, like the psyflemen dreads, dreadknights, purifiers and so on. Aside from that, and Kaldor Draigo, I think they are a pretty nifty force. They have a horrid reputation in Australia because of WAAC gamers writing disgustingly cheesy lists designed to ruin everyone else's day. Apparently, Grey Knights are banned in tournaments throughout Queensland, which is actually unsurprising in a way.

Aside from his Grey Knights codex having the potential to absolutely annihilate certain codexes almost by default and writing the most abusive lists in the game, and obviously his Daemons codex, I've liked his other codexes. The Blood Angels codex is hardly OP, but it is a funny army to use that can be devastating if used right. For fun games, take all the deep-striking land raiders you can fit in or do massive death company blobs. You'll lose more often than not but it would be hilarious (especially for your opponent when the LRs mishap). Mephiston and flying dreadnoughts with force weapons aren't fun but that's about it.
The Necrons are awesome now though, I think Imotekh is almost as cheesy as Draigo though with his damned lightning. That and wraiths are brutal.

[Wolfshade]

Mephiston I do not think is OP, yes he has the statline of a MC, but he has no invulnerable save, doesn't have eternal warrior and is the same cost as a land raider.

[Learn2Eel]

Yeah there's that but you still need to hit him 5 lascannons or something to that extent to kill him before he charges you.
He's got enough weaknesses to not be OP really but he's still not a fun guy to be around. It's hilarious if he dies before he makes combat though.

The one game I played against him, I just ignored him. He ate a vindicator and an empty rhino whilst I wiped out my opponent's army by using a funny tri-dreadnought chaos list.
I've never laughed so hard when my three dreadnoughts all raged on the same turn and charged into his hapless assault squads.
Lesson number 1; TAKE POWER FISTS!

I think if hidden and used well Mephiston can be deadly but he's probably too big a point sink to be worth it, unlike Draigo and co. He can only realistically kill one thing a turn, and the killing won't start until at least turn 2.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

up until a few weeks ago, i thought the grey knights were a severely over-powered codex and i flat out refused to play anyone who had them unless it was a) one of my friends or b) someone i knew wasn't taking a cheese list they got off the internet.
Now i'm writing dual storm-raven lists with psyflemen dreadnoughts.
My justification? It is a 16 model 1500 point army that needs some ranged anti-tank power. As cheesy as psyflemen dreadnoughts are, grey knights don't have much else that can really deal with tanks at long-range as effectively. The vindicare is decent until he fails two saves, which is pretty easy actually.

My only problem with grey knights is if you want to write semi-competitive or tournament lists it is very difficult to not use the more cheesy elements, like the psyflemen dreads, dreadknights, purifiers and so on. Aside from that, and kaldor draigo, i think they are a pretty nifty force. They have a horrid reputation in australia because of waac gamers writing disgustingly cheesy lists designed to ruin everyone else's day. Apparently, grey knights are banned in tournaments throughout queensland, which is actually unsurprising in a way.

Aside from his grey knights codex having the potential to absolutely annihilate certain codexes almost by default and writing the most abusive lists in the game, and obviously his daemons codex, i've liked his other codexes. The blood angels codex is hardly op, but it is a funny army to use that can be devastating if used right. For fun games, take all the deep-striking land raiders you can fit in or do massive death company blobs. You'll lose more often than not but it would be hilarious (especially for your opponent when the lrs mishap). Mephiston and flying dreadnoughts with force weapons aren't fun but that's about it.
The necrons are awesome now though, i think imotekh is almost as cheesy as draigo though with his damned lightning. That and wraiths are brutal.


tl;dr

[Learn2Eel]

tl;dr

Grey Knights are OP. Matt Ward is ok. ;)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Hahahahaha! I was joking, I read it. :p

[Learn2Eel]

Haha I wouldn't blame you if you didn't lol. Aussies are either long-winded or can't put two words together without saying either 'mate' or 'sheila'. Fortunately (or unfortunately), I am the former.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Crikey! Dingos! and Babies! And all that bollocks. :D

[Learn2Eel]

There's a primitive sub-species of human living in the western NSW regions, they are called "bogans". They wear short-shorts, dress in tank tops and go to the beach when its raining.
They make Crocodile Dundee look like a member of the English royal family!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Hah, Australian colloquialisms make me laugh.

[Kyban]

Up until a few weeks ago, I thought the Grey Knights were a severely over-powered codex and I flat out refused to play anyone who had them unless it was a) one of my friends or b) someone I knew wasn't taking a cheese list they got off the internet.
Now I'm writing dual Storm-Raven lists with psyflemen dreadnoughts.
My justification? It is a 16 model 1500 point army that needs some ranged anti-tank power. As cheesy as psyflemen dreadnoughts are, Grey Knights don't have much else that can really deal with tanks at long-range as effectively. The Vindicare is decent until he fails two saves, which is pretty easy actually.

My only problem with Grey Knights is if you want to write semi-competitive or tournament lists it is very difficult to not use the more cheesy elements, like the psyflemen dreads, dreadknights, purifiers and so on. Aside from that, and Kaldor Draigo, I think they are a pretty nifty force. They have a horrid reputation in Australia because of WAAC gamers writing disgustingly cheesy lists designed to ruin everyone else's day. Apparently, Grey Knights are banned in tournaments throughout Queensland, which is actually unsurprising in a way.

Aside from his Grey Knights codex having the potential to absolutely annihilate certain codexes almost by default and writing the most abusive lists in the game, and obviously his Daemons codex, I've liked his other codexes. The Blood Angels codex is hardly OP, but it is a funny army to use that can be devastating if used right. For fun games, take all the deep-striking land raiders you can fit in or do massive death company blobs. You'll lose more often than not but it would be hilarious (especially for your opponent when the LRs mishap). Mephiston and flying dreadnoughts with force weapons aren't fun but that's about it.
The Necrons are awesome now though, I think Imotekh is almost as cheesy as Draigo though with his damned lightning. That and wraiths are brutal.
Yeah, I don't understand why people think GK are so over-powered. I've played as GK a fair amount and the biggest problem I've seen is most players just don't know how to deal with the army even when their list is perfectly capable of winning. They just prioritize their targets wrong and tend to make the wrong tactical decisions, it's like they just dismiss the army as overpowered and don't bother learning how to fight it. Sure, the psyfledreads are little cheap, but they're just about the only long range anti-tank since purgation squads have a 24" range.

[eldargal]

They aren't particularly overpowered, what they are is undercosted and absolutely no fun to play against.

[Learn2Eel]

Yeah, I don't understand why people think GK are so over-powered. I've played as GK a fair amount and the biggest problem I've seen is most players just don't know how to deal with the army even when their list is perfectly capable of winning. They just prioritize their targets wrong and tend to make the wrong tactical decisions, it's like they just dismiss the army as overpowered and don't bother learning how to fight it. Sure, the psyfledreads are little cheap, but they're just about the only long range anti-tank since purgation squads have a 24" range.

Exactly. People forget that outside the psyfledreads, the codex revolves around a 24" bubble of death (30" if you include movement). The other problem is that I've noticed a lot of people don't understand the rules fully. A lot of people in my store are under the impression each Grey Knight unit can take multiple psychic tests in the same turn - the same assumption I used to be under - because of the only regular player in the store not knowing his rules, and also because he cheats. After looking through the rules, whilst its clear that Chaos Daemons may as well not even bother fighting against Grey Knights (deep strike near my strike squads :cool:), they are nowhere near as OP as people claim. It's probably because of the cheese lists you see online used at tournaments.

That's the big problem for many players, it's a basic lesson that many simply do not learn; you need to work out your target priority and focus fire on that target until it is made redundant. As a Dark Eldar player, it's typically "stun their vehicles" for the first two turns and then "blow them up". If you face three dreadknights, you don't take pot shots at all of them with the hope you kill all three before they charge you; you shoot one until it dies and then shoot the other one. Or, tarpit them whilst you mow down the rest of their army. Dependent on the list, I'd usually focus on their transports so that I can dictate the charges to them and also to manipulate their short-range focus.

[Learn2Eel]

It is kind of silly that for 4 points more per model than a Tactical Marine you get a force weapon, a storm bolter and two psychic powers, one that if used correctly can screw over deep-striking armies and the other that makes Plague Marines cry.

On that same note though, it is still quite a bit of extra points, and those squads don't get long-range weaponry like tactical marines. Running ten man squads in rhinos with a psycannon or two and a daemon hammer will set you back nearly 250 points, which is Thousand Sons-esque.

[Kyban]

They aren't particularly overpowered, what they are is undercosted and absolutely no fun to play against.
Although some of the Eldar and Dark Eldar anti-psyker equipment can be hilarious against a GK army.

[eldargal]

Yep, once took out Draigo and a tooled up Librarian with teh crucible of malediction against a Draigowing list.:) Posted about it here (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=21221). Added a bunch of GK helmet trophies to my Bloodbrides.

[Captainparty]

Grey Knights aren't over powered and bad to play against unless you play with terrible people who don't care if you have fun while playing a game, avoid those people and you'll enjoy playing against any army.

This may mean avoiding proper tournaments, but **** it, playing with friends is much better.

[GrogDaTyrant]

Grey Knights aren't over powered and bad to play against unless you play with terrible people who don't care if you have fun while playing a game, avoid those people and you'll enjoy playing against any army.

This may mean avoiding proper tournaments, but **** it, playing with friends is much better.

I have had far more enjoyment playing against the most WAAC IG army, then I have ever had playing against any GK army since the release of their codex, no matter how much of a bro-tier friend my opponent was. I am personally under the opinion that the GK codex is a (and I quote) "Gimmick Infested Mess of Under-Costed Units and Options". 5th in general hasn't been a very fun edition to play, as it's joke of a combat resolution system proved to me. But GK took the cake of being the army that no matter how close of a game it was, it was still an unenjoyable waste of my time to play against... Win or Lose. It's already bad enough that 12 out of 13 games of 40k tend to be against marines.

[The Sovereign]

I hope Phil Kelly wrote 6th Edition...

[Captainparty]

I have had far more enjoyment playing against the most WAAC IG army, then I have ever had playing against any GK army since the release of their codex, no matter how much of a bro-tier friend my opponent was. I am personally under the opinion that the GK codex is a (and I quote) "Gimmick Infested Mess of Under-Costed Units and Options". 5th in general hasn't been a very fun edition to play, as it's joke of a combat resolution system proved to me. But GK took the cake of being the army that no matter how close of a game it was, it was still an unenjoyable waste of my time to play against... Win or Lose. It's already bad enough that 12 out of 13 games of 40k tend to be against marines.

Bye then, have fun with the other games

[GrogDaTyrant]

Bye then, have fun with the other games

Already do, thanks! The game I have begun devoting most of my time for generally has a much more mature player base, as well.

[bfmusashi]

I only play toy soldiers with the most discerning of my peers. We partake of wine and cheese as we discuss topics of the day.

[Wolfshade]

I only play toy soldiers with the most discerning of my peers. We partake of wine and cheese as we discuss topics of the day.

Seriously, beer goes better with cheese, the flavours are much more complementary.

[eldargal]

I'd have to agree on that, the GK codex is horrendously boring to play against even when you're winning and it is a fluffy list.

I have had far more enjoyment playing against the most WAAC IG army, then I have ever had playing against any GK army since the release of their codex, no matter how much of a bro-tier friend my opponent was. I am personally under the opinion that the GK codex is a (and I quote) "Gimmick Infested Mess of Under-Costed Units and Options". 5th in general hasn't been a very fun edition to play, as it's joke of a combat resolution system proved to me. But GK took the cake of being the army that no matter how close of a game it was, it was still an unenjoyable waste of my time to play against... Win or Lose. It's already bad enough that 12 out of 13 games of 40k tend to be against marines.


Croquet?:p

Already do, thanks! The game I have begun devoting most of my time for generally has a much more mature player base, as well.

[Deadlift]

Already do, thanks! The game I have begun devoting most of my time for generally has a much more mature player base, as well.

Nah its Lawn Bowls :p

Gotta dig the whites

[Wolfshade]

My local (or rather one of my regular pubs) has a bowling green attached to it that sees regular bowling action

[GrogDaTyrant]

You're all wrong, it's DISC GOLF!

[Veteran Sergeant]

He spells it as "Mat Ward"

You Brits screw up the spellings of all kinds of things in American. ;)


But I'll agree, Ward isn't nearly as bad as people make him out to be. All of the codex books are OTT in favor of their race except the Tyranids, who kinda have to ultimately lose because otherwise the game would be over, lol.