No Matter The Tactic: A Tau player's final lament.

[Panxer]

...

[ElectricPaladin]

Come play Infinity. Remember what you thought when you first saw the Tau?

"Oh, man. These guys are like a professional army, not a bunch of lunatics with skulls on their skulls. And they dance around the board, seeking cover while they shoot, acting all... all tactical like. That will be fun."

Everything in Infinity plays like that.

Feels good, man.

[Nightwolf]

I actually think Tau are a bit better off than some other races such as Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids, and Daemons. They are about on par with Eldar presently (which isn't exactly a great place admittedly). The biggest issue, however, is that certain armies trump them. The Blood Angels provide a superb example of this. With FNP the wounds that firewarriors cause will be easily shrugged off, fast vehicles run circles around your mobility, and the tons of melta will shred your tanks with ease. Space Wolves with Longfangs are another bad matchup. Grey Knights I find either trump Tau or visa versa. It all depends on the lists involved, the mission, and a skilled setup and lucky dice. It is really tough though.

Slightly off topic; I might suggest you look into an up and coming game called Dropzone Commander if you haven't already. If you like the Tau something tells me yo will love the Post-Human-Republic.

Addendum:

I know they are very odd, but I've had a friend who had a lot of success with MSU firewarrior units on foot with a leader w/ markerlight and a networked markerlight drone. Take a small handful of these squads and back them with other aspects of your army and they are little spitfires. Seeker missiles and lack of cover gets old for non MSU armies. It also keeps the enemy from being able to focus fire on a single squad to destroy all your markerlights (pathfinders). If you run a squad of pathfinders along with these guys your opponent begins to get worried.

I don't imagine that will be a fix for your problem, but I figured it couldn't hurt to mention it.

[Panxer]

I really appreciate the support. I'm looking at different gaming systems now, and I'll probably either get into dust, mercs, or infinity. They look very interesting.

Though I am pretty adamant about shelving my Tau until GW decides to grace us with a new Tau codex.

It'll give me time to master my IG or to start a whole new gaming system.

[woodenronin]

I suggest you set them aside and try your IG. I have been getting my *** stomped with my vanilla SM. So I am trying a whole new IG army. I am so unfamiliar with the codex that every time I play with them I get better. And have more fun with each game. Frustration is not fun.

[Drakkan Vael]

This will be my last Tau thread I post for a while.


I truly hope so.

[Tauownz]

Sorry you feel that way Panxer. Infinity is a good game from what I've heard, if you like tau xv8's a lot try out dreampod9's heavy gear line. 28mm mech suits that look a lot like tau. Hopefully a new dex and 6th edition help out the tau.

[Wolfshade]

I truly hope so.
Maybe a little harsh?

Anyway in a month's time we'll have 6th ed (or so the rumour mill goes) then you can see how Tau play in that brave new world.

[StraightSilver]

If the rumours about the changes to 6th are accurate you will find Tau will get quite a few boosts that should make them more playable.

Admittedly they will still suck big time in close combat, but let's face it they do already anyway so that won't change.

But you should find Fire Warriors much more effective than they are currently.

The only downside is Kroot being 33% less effective in CC due to the AP5 of CC wpns (if that's true).

[slobulous]

I play Tau and I rarely lose with them. I still think they are one of the top shooting armies even though their codex is outdated. At the 2500 level, I might even consider them highly competitive. It is really important to take 3 full squads of deathrains AND 3 full squads of Broadsides with 2 shield drones each though. Massed twin-linked railguns and missile pods destroy pretty much anything. Including Draigowing deep striking in your face.

[Kawauso]

This is anecdotal, but one of my best friends plays with Tau and he wins pretty consistently...against every 5th edition army.

I know that's not much help to you, but I'm just saying that it seems like you're giving up and throwing in the towel when there probably simple changes you could make to the way you play that would drastically improve your army's performance.
It really sounds like a play-style issue. I've seen Broadsides, Hammerheads, Devilfish, Pathfinders, Battlesuits and even Fire Warriors used to great effect many times.

Tau are a weaker army, yes. But a skilled player can make them perform just as well as any of the newer books.

Incidentally this friend's other army is Sisters of Battle, so maybe being stuck with outdated, weaker armies has forced him to become a much better player?
All I'm saying is you shouldn't give up yet. :P

[thecactusman17]

People who pay with weaker armies seem to invariably become better players quicker. Give this man a space wolves army and he will probably be winning with them in no time

[Brandoncbaker]

I played in a Atlanta area circuit tourney recently and one of the top players there was a Tau player who used a lot of rail gun toting suits, along with a couple token troops and even a outflanking unit of kroot. He kicked some ***,and beat some power type army's so it can definitely be done

[Panxer]

I truly hope so.

Feel free to ignore this one then. Your opin would be better served elsewhere I'm sure. Thanks for the contribution though!

[Panxer]

I'm not quitting. I'm shelving. Going into stasis, if you will. Let me assure you. I've tried EVERY tactic there is under the astrinomicon and N-O-T-H-I-N-G has worked for me.

My typical armies facing against me in our local gaming group are Necrons, Black Templars, Eldar, Tyranids, and Dark Angels (with myself providing both Tau and Imperial Guard). Not to mention we have a couple new players who are bringing Dark Eldar and Space Wolves to the table...

And I have to say, given that I've tried everything (and I can provide references to substantiate this from people who've been playing against me on the regular for about a year now) Necrons = more shootier and more lethal than Tau with their new dex, Space Wolves and Eldar are tougher and outflanking melta-ier (sp?), Tyranids, I don't typically have trouble with (as long as their not using spores or trygons), Templars and Angels have me in the back field by turn 2, and Dark Eldar (once they lock in combat) are harder to get out than an Alabama tick (and yes, I don't have time to bleed...wa wa).

Trust me, Kroot shields, mobile tank cover, fish-sticks of fury, XV88 spam, you name it, I've done it and had it blown up in my face. and after close to 100+ games in a year's time playing fairly consistently (at least 2 games a week) and being very willing and able to research, try, and implement different tactics and stratagems, I'm still facing a .074% win ratio, which is really crushing to the psyche when after a year you can't even sock away (or even remember) 10 wins throughout that timeline. It is to say (me being a highly competitive and mentally conditioned *thank you military enlistment* to WIIINNNNN!) so it is safe to say that I keep the razor blades and warm water well hidden...:D

This is why my fishy friends are going to be in dry dock for a while.

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement though!

[Uncle Nutsy]

I've been there panxer. My first army was tau and every time I played an army that had 5th in mind, I was tabled by turn four at the latest. Sure, my hammerhead still ran rings around fexes but.. yeah. I started playing DE. I set it up like tau, play it like tau (without the JSJ of course) and guess what: I haven't lost a game yet. Same opponents, same armies, same tactics.

So yes, tau is definitely lacking in both shooting ability and weight of fire. and those two things are what tau depend on most to survive.

Anyone who wins consistently against 5th ed armies is either very lucky, or plays mediocre opponents.


On an anecdotal note: the guys I play with have been playing for much much longer than I have. years longer. they are good. tournament-winning good. I'm also one of the guys who's played competitive video games for quite a number of years and i've gone up against the best. Combine those two elements, add in my own fiercely competitive streak and you can just imagine what happened when I walked into an independent GW store. I asked someone to play a pickup game and because I played DE like I would tau, I took them out so fast, it was over before they knew it.

[Kawauso]

Anyone who wins consistently against 5th ed armies is either very lucky, or plays mediocre opponents.



BS.

Tau are viable. They have an uphill battle - like Eldar or Orks, but they're not an abject failure of a codex. They're book is old, lacking options, and overcosted in a lot of areas. But they have tons of good things going for them in marker lights, rail guns, disruption pods and battlesuits.

They're not a top-tier tournament army. But they're not an auto-lose army, either.

If you're consistently getting tabled by turn 4, I'd posit that you're either very unlucky or a mediocre player. :P

[Tynskel]

I'm not quitting. I'm shelving. Going into stasis, if you will. Let me assure you. I've tried EVERY tactic there is under the astrinomicon and N-O-T-H-I-N-G has worked for me.

My typical armies facing against me in our local gaming group are Necrons, Black Templars, Eldar, Tyranids, and Dark Angels (with myself providing both Tau and Imperial Guard). Not to mention we have a couple new players who are bringing Dark Eldar and Space Wolves to the table...

And I have to say, given that I've tried everything (and I can provide references to substantiate this from people who've been playing against me on the regular for about a year now) Necrons = more shootier and more lethal than Tau with their new dex, Space Wolves and Eldar are tougher and outflanking melta-ier (sp?), Tyranids, I don't typically have trouble with (as long as their not using spores or trygons), Templars and Angels have me in the back field by turn 2, and Dark Eldar (once they lock in combat) are harder to get out than an Alabama tick (and yes, I don't have time to bleed...wa wa).

Trust me, Kroot shields, mobile tank cover, fish-sticks of fury, XV88 spam, you name it, I've done it and had it blown up in my face. and after close to 100+ games in a year's time playing fairly consistently (at least 2 games a week) and being very willing and able to research, try, and implement different tactics and stratagems, I'm still facing a .074% win ratio, which is really crushing to the psyche when after a year you can't even sock away (or even remember) 10 wins throughout that timeline. It is to say (me being a highly competitive and mentally conditioned *thank you military enlistment* to WIIINNNNN!) so it is safe to say that I keep the razor blades and warm water well hidden...:D

This is why my fishy friends are going to be in dry dock for a while.

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement though!

I figured out what the issue is. You can know every tactic in the book, but still not know how to use these tactics. You need to think about what your opponent wants. You need to think 3-4 turns ahead, with every move you make, and I mean thinking what your opponent will be doing.

This reminds me of a game of Battle Fleet Gothic a while back. My opponent was so proud of the 'tactic' they were using, explaining to me what it is for. My retort was, you don't use a particular tactic just because you can. Tactics are like a tools in toolbox. You don't use a hammer on a screw, and you don't use a screwdriver on a bolt. The tactics need to be applied to the correct situation. One needs to think about the consequences of the actions you are taking.

In the end, you want to control how your opponent plays. At that point, then it is up to the Fickle Dice Gods.

[Panxer]

BS.

Tau are viable. They have an uphill battle - like Eldar or Orks, but they're not an abject failure of a codex. They're book is old, lacking options, and overcosted in a lot of areas. But they have tons of good things going for them in marker lights, rail guns, disruption pods and battlesuits.

They're not a top-tier tournament army. But they're not an auto-lose army, either.

If you're consistently getting tabled by turn 4, I'd posit that you're either very unlucky or a mediocre player. :P

XV Suits suck as a model/unit. They have no special rules beside relentless (which they can only use with assault weapons), and acute senses (which markerlights and blacksun filters negate the use of or need for). Ok, they're 2 wounds at 3+ armor, but there are TONS of weapons out there that defeat 3+ armor and also S8 weapons at AP1 which cause instant death. Oh, AND! If they take drones, you can lose one and (easily) fail morale and run up to 18" off of the board. Happens every time without fail.

Disruption pods ARE cool...except for one thing...they are defeated at -12", oh, and everything in 5th ed. can close that distance or outflank, deepstrike, etc, which renders your dis pod completely ineffective and useless (70% of the time).

Markerlights are vital, and anyone who knows Tau KNOWS that those units need to be taken out FIRST and without them, your little more than a high-tech guardsman with a S5 AP5 lasrifle. TL railguns are a little more scary, but aren't as scary at BS3 with no marker support.

Railguns are nice (and indeed the most scary gun in the game), BUT every other army has a similar variant in 5th ed, Guard, Eldar, Orks (which can steal and use whatever), Necrons, Space Marines or other variant or other special rule which makes these weapons the equivalent of a railgun. So it's not a special gun that no one else has.

I could go on with this for days, but I have to get me some pancakes..."Tau are viable"? Sorry if I bust out laughing on that one. It works for you? That's great! It works for YOU! You know a guy who it works for? That's great! It works for HIM! Not me. Not ever. End of story.

[Panxer]

I figured out what the issue is. You can know every tactic in the book, but still not know how to use these tactics. You need to think about what your opponent wants. You need to think 3-4 turns ahead, with every move you make, and I mean thinking what your opponent will be doing.

This reminds me of a game of Battle Fleet Gothic a while back. My opponent was so proud of the 'tactic' they were using, explaining to me what it is for. My retort was, you don't use a particular tactic just because you can. Tactics are like a tools in toolbox. You don't use a hammer on a screw, and you don't use a screwdriver on a bolt. The tactics need to be applied to the correct situation. One needs to think about the consequences of the actions you are taking.

In the end, you want to control how your opponent plays. At that point, then it is up to the Fickle Dice Gods.

40K has about 3 variants on the game (excluding the ad-on battle missions books, planet strike, apocalypse etc.). What is my opponent's objective? Kill more units than me. Take more objectives than me. Take over my base. ? That's it. The only variants on this, is what is your opponent trying to complete those objectives with? More troops? More Mech? More Shooty? More choppy? What special rules are we dealing with? Does everything have FNP, Etc. If you're insinuating that I've never heard of military tactics, ACOKA, requisitions, service support, fields of fire, shoot move communicate, etc.; you'd be wrong. 8 years of applied military small unit and large scale logistical tactics has taught me at least the basics of standard, consistent, and historically proven modes and means of successful military strategem...oh, wait...it's pseudo military game constructed by a British modeling company which has very little to do with military as it's applied in a realistic scenario.

Thanks, you've helped me strengthen my position as to why a reasonable person who's looking for a hobby would walk away from GW all together. There is only war? War by definition implies two relatively equal forces facing off with the possibility of either side coming out with a win. What? Everything you have has FNP, is fleet, and can make the entire board difficult terrain or night fight, oh, AND all your vehicles are fast? Yeah, I'm 'equal'. What do I have? I have a S10 stick with awesome range, but little chance of hitting you without my friends out there with flashlights.

This is all academic and just a retread of a million other arguments about Tau that have been done better by smarter people. I'm putting them away for the time being. Thanks for your couched insult based on presumption of facts not in your first hand knowledge, and be looking for the .02 cent check I'm going to be mailing to you for your opinion on me and my tactical acumen. Now...on to pancakes!:D

[Tynskel]

Spend some time to learn about your opponent's artwork.

You completely disregarded what I was saying. I wasn't saying look at the main objective, I was saying break down how your opponent was going to play. You only lose at 40k to yourself. Your opponent is just you. You need to learn how to think your opponent does with their army. You need to think-- what do I target in my army? What is the best thing to kill this round? How do I force my opponent to move to the location I WANT them to be?

I NEVER play to the objective of the game until it is the last turn of the game. It doesn't matter what army I use. I am playing for control of the board every game. Once you control the board, just like in chess, Go, Connect4, tic-tac-toe, Risk, Axis and Allies, or even War, you start making moves for your opponent. It becomes like reading a book!


You need to do some exercises. For example: when I play small point games, I take the minimum amount of space marines. 11 men. Then you start playing games: Never lose a space marine. Or, lose only one marine. These exercises are what you need to do with the Tau.

The point is: work toward an achievable goal first. Make a unit, keep it alive, but make it MVP.

People tell me that the Carnifex sucks. Hands down, I think the carnifex is one of the most powerful units in 40k. I almost never lose them, and they usually outright kill the most in every game I use them. I have spent a lot of time thinking about, "how do I take a unit that 'sucks' and use them to kill my opponent?'

[Panxer]

I was pretty harsh. I apologize. I do believe my tactical acumen to be sound though. I am surely a victim of bad dice rolls. I have similar problems with my guard army, but I haven't explored them fully yet.

I do have to note that Tau are completely lacking in Cheese though. Buddy of mine was noting Space Wolves have this jaws of the world wolf ability where they roll 3 d6 and any model in the players declared direction under the range of the dice roll is removed from play. That's pretty cheesey.

Necrons have their scarab spam, night fight, and difficult terrain abilities (to name but a few)

Space Wolves have the jaws of the world wolf and rune priest spam

Guard have the hellhound wall of fire or Valkyrie spam .

Space marines have drop pods and landraider lightning claw terminator spam

Blood Angels have fnp usr for almost all of their infantry, mephiston, blood rage etc

Dark eldar have pain tokens

Eldar have farseer abilities, screaming banshees, and bright lances

Chaos has nurgle spam

Dark angels have terminator spam

Grey knights have paladin spam

Tau? I can deepstrike and re-roll scatter. I can trickle in my reserves with positional relay. I can get a 4+ cover save for vehicles outside of 12" range. I can field a farsight army and have 17 xv suits on the table at one time. I can fire markerlights from a tetra and hit on a 3+. The only thing that makes people shake in their boots (even marginally) is S10 AP1 TL railguns. 9 Railguns at one time, but those can be taken out any number of ways and there are no upgrades to make them T5.

Suits are hobbled right out of the gate (lose a drone- run away, S8 instant death, relentless for only rapid fire and assault weapons *whoopee, etc) Ethereals cause either preferred enemy or run away after their deaths, Kroot have no armor save and bad initiative (unless dogs are taken), Stealth suits don't have stealth, firewarriors can do anything but fire with no options for specialweapon upgrades, there are no armor 14 tanks or upgrades to provide armor 14 for a facing side, vespid are pointless and expensive, skyrays can run out of ammo on turn 2 now with tetras on the field, I could go on and on and on.

The only deathstar unit we can boast is a 8 member XV suit team with TL missiles and plasma/meltas that can be taken out in a single turn with how shooty, choppy, and fast most armies are now.

I'm sure I'm missing a lot of the positives they can do, but they are a sad spot in the face of all the shenanigans and spam other races can pull out of their 5th point of contacts.

Give us all a new book, maybe I'll become interested again. 'Til then? GW can suck on a tailpipe.

[Phototoxin]

Tau are stupid good at low points games. Once you max out on elites though it becomes harder. 4+ cover saves on vehicles and JSJ should keep stuff alive longer.

[Learn2Eel]

No one at my store plays Tau because most people there share your view. However, even though the codex is definitely outdated and certain armies should kick your butt by rights, looking at the codex a list running MSU style with multitudes of 3-man crisis and broadside battle suit teams will worry a lot of people. Whenever your opponent puts nine broadsides on the field at 1500 points, plus about 9 crisis suits, you know he means business.

Mind you, my perspective is hardly that of a competitive gamer. But still, there's not a lot that dakka of that level can't deal with. Your broadsides can only shoot three targets a turn, sure, which won't work against highly mobile armies, but it is still a dirty tactic and any opponent investing in big tanks will cry.

Even then, there are plenty of competitive options with the Tau; they are a tough army to use, but they are highly rewarding, especially when you blow Mr Grey Knight's Dreadknights and psychic Stormravens/Land Raiders off the field in one round of shooting. Priceless.

[woodenronin]

Buy new dice!

[Learn2Eel]

I was pretty harsh. I apologize. I do believe my tactical acumen to be sound though. I am surely a victim of bad dice rolls. I have similar problems with my guard army, but I haven't explored them fully yet.

I do have to note that Tau are completely lacking in Cheese though. Buddy of mine was noting Space Wolves have this jaws of the world wolf ability where they roll 3 d6 and any model in the players declared direction under the range of the dice roll is removed from play. That's pretty cheesey.

Necrons have their scarab spam, night fight, and difficult terrain abilities (to name but a few)

Space Wolves have the jaws of the world wolf and rune priest spam

Guard have the hellhound wall of fire or Valkyrie spam .

Space marines have drop pods and landraider lightning claw terminator spam

Blood Angels have fnp usr for almost all of their infantry, mephiston, blood rage etc

Dark eldar have pain tokens

Eldar have farseer abilities, screaming banshees, and bright lances

Chaos has nurgle spam

Dark angels have terminator spam

Grey knights have paladin spam

Tau? I can deepstrike and re-roll scatter. I can trickle in my reserves with positional relay. I can get a 4+ cover save for vehicles outside of 12" range. I can field a farsight army and have 17 xv suits on the table at one time. I can fire markerlights from a tetra and hit on a 3+. The only thing that makes people shake in their boots (even marginally) is S10 AP1 TL railguns. 9 Railguns at one time, but those can be taken out any number of ways and there are no upgrades to make them T5.

Suits are hobbled right out of the gate (lose a drone- run away, S8 instant death, relentless for only rapid fire and assault weapons *whoopee, etc) Ethereals cause either preferred enemy or run away after their deaths, Kroot have no armor save and bad initiative (unless dogs are taken), Stealth suits don't have stealth, firewarriors can do anything but fire with no options for specialweapon upgrades, there are no armor 14 tanks or upgrades to provide armor 14 for a facing side, vespid are pointless and expensive, skyrays can run out of ammo on turn 2 now with tetras on the field, I could go on and on and on.

The only deathstar unit we can boast is a 8 member XV suit team with TL missiles and plasma/meltas that can be taken out in a single turn with how shooty, choppy, and fast most armies are now.

I'm sure I'm missing a lot of the positives they can do, but they are a sad spot in the face of all the shenanigans and spam other races can pull out of their 5th point of contacts.

Give us all a new book, maybe I'll become interested again. 'Til then? GW can suck on a tailpipe.

Jaws of the World Wolf works a bit differently to what you describe. You roll to pass your psychic test, then you measure a line on either 3D6 or 4D6 (can't remember exactly). Every model touched by the line takes an initiative test, and if they fail, they are then removed from play as a casualty.
It's cheesy and also hilarious against Necrons or Tervigon-spam lists. However, if you are a Necron player and you lose some models to this power, always note the wording of the power; "removed from play as a casualty". You can still make your Reanimation Protocols and Ever Living rolls.

Also, as far as cheesy stuff that each codex has, I'll simply say; TH/SS terminators. A Blood Angels player at my store runs 10 of them, one with a Sanguinary Priest and the other with a Librarian, at 1500 points. One squad is mounted in a Storm Raven, the other in a Land Raider Redeemer. It's not nice.
And hell dude, Tau have Broadsides which, given the other stuff you post, I would consider cheesy. They are a two-wound terminator that has the strongest gun in the game (not counting Warp Lance), and they need 4s to hit with re-rolls with a gun that has artillery-esque range.
Spam them and people will hate you.

And even then, as you say, it comes down to dice rolls. Math-hammer won't help you in an actual battle.
Take my Thousand Sons army; they are not a competitive army, and I am nearly always outnumbered. I rarely lose with them though because my opponents who often spam terminators/plasma/AP3 crap are suddenly rendered virtually useless. One of my Thousand Sons squads was charged by a five-man terminator squad twice and beat the Terminators back both times in a single game without suffering a casualty. You'd think three lightning claws and two thunder hammers would make mince meat of Thousand Sons. Nope. Didn't lose one, killed a terminator each time and both times he failed his leadership and ran away.
My point is, cheese isn't everything. Do something unexpected, that you like, and the dice will start working for you. Trust me.

[Panxer]

Thanks for the heads up for the Jaws of the world wolf. My buddy plays necrons and he hhhhhhaaaaaattttteeeesssss it when our space wolf representative in our gaming group has runepriest spam and runs that cheese for about 2 turns before it gets ugly. I don't think he knows about the ever living and rp rolls.

Danke.

[Panxer]

Oh! And I forgot, farsight bodyguard spam isn't that hot unless you give them meltas and deepstrike them (backing them up with tetras with marker beacons if you can)...

and as far as 9 broadsides being considered 'spam', I'd have to disagree there. I've had Eldar and Space wolves take out all three units in one turn before. They are a HUGE target and can be taken out with any number of means (even just tying them up in close combat works)

I've tried GW dice AND science dice. I've even done casino dice...no dice (so to speak). Doesn't work. Ask anyone who's played me... every time without fail, Deepstrike XV melta suicide suits, marker beacons ensure a safe landing, close enough for side armor on vehicle target, roll to hit...x2 suits...nothing...twin linked...one hit, roll to penetrate...nothing...Enemy comes about, one swift roll of the dice and my unit's gone. Multiply this by the whole game and by turn 3 it's not even worth continuing. I've done the numbers and honestly...They're on the shelf and are probably going to stay there for the time being. Give every loyal tau player a new book and maybe we'll talk.

[Chexmix282]

I'm going to agree with some of the posters here in that it seems as though you just have awful luck. If you consistently change your dice and still roll poorly, that isn't Tau's fault.

But then I agree with you, in that Tau Empire is a crappy, out-dated codex.

I will disagree that Markerlights are essential, however. I almost find them to be a waste of points, based on how quickly they are targeted and shot off the board.

It's a sad day when you have to field 9 Crisis Suits and 9 Broadsides just to keep up in a "friendly" game... then the Tau player will likely be reprimanded for taking so many suits, even if he is defeated.

Tau can still compete (imo) in mid-tier tournaments such as Rouge Trader events though, I have had some great success with them recently. They do suffer more from bad matchups then almost any other codex, though, which is why I have stopped playing them (and my Eldar) at tournaments - lack of reliability.

My Tau - like yours - are shelved until 6th. If the rumors are true, then Tau might be "okay" again. Luckily I have BA and SW armies to keep me busy til then.

[Anggul]

The OP just sounds like rubbish tactics with rubbish execution. I've seen Tau work well, and I've done it myself the very few times I've played them so far. Sure they probably won't hold up against the boring Space Wolf Imperial Guard spam but that's only two armies and most armies have a fairly hard time with them anyway.

[Uncle Nutsy]

BS.

Tau are viable. They have an uphill battle - like Eldar or Orks, but they're not an abject failure of a codex. They're book is old, lacking options, and overcosted in a lot of areas. But they have tons of good things going for them in marker lights, rail guns, disruption pods and battlesuits.

They're not a top-tier tournament army. But they're not an auto-lose army, either.

If you're consistently getting tabled by turn 4, I'd posit that you're either very unlucky or a mediocre player. :P

have you ever dealt with a massive tyranid horde rush before their new dex? ever dealt with shrikes rushing and engaging your suits in CC before you take out the group? ever dealt with seven gaunts within six inches of your suits, even when you JSJ as much as possible to stay out of assault range?

i'm thinking... no. so you can't say they're viable UNTIL you've dealt with builds other than mech AND found ways to win.



yes i've played orks aswell. i've won with orks because I went shootaboy/ghazghull kommando combo. easy for me to do. But tau, no matter how many builds i've tried, no matter how many tactics I've used, they almost always ended up being overwhelmed simply because they didn't have the necessary weight of fire. Everyone can be unlucky, but me being mediocre with tau when I can win with other armies? you need to quit pontificating about stuff you don't know anything about.

[Anggul]

have you ever dealt with a massive tyranid horde rush before their new dex? ever dealt with shrikes rushing and engaging your suits in CC before you take out the group? ever dealt with seven gaunts within six inches of your suits, even when you JSJ as much as possible to stay out of assault range?

i'm thinking... no. so you can't say they're viable UNTIL you've dealt with builds other than mech AND found ways to win.



yes i've played orks aswell. i've won with orks because I went shootaboy/ghazghull kommando combo. easy for me to do. But tau, no matter how many builds i've tried, no matter how many tactics I've used, they almost always ended up being overwhelmed simply because they didn't have the necessary weight of fire. Everyone can be unlucky, but me being mediocre with tau when I can win with other armies? you need to quit pontificating about stuff you don't know anything about.

Perhaps you just haven't grasped their style of play. I consider myself fairly good with Tau and Eldar, but I don't imagine I'd be particularly good with Orks, and although I play Dark Eldar I don't think I've quite figured out just how I should play my army yet.

I don't know, just a thought, maybe your usual style of play doesn't really suit how Tau should be played, whereas it does suit other armies?

[Rapture]

I will say that Tau are very highly susceptible to high speed assaults. Pitched battle with 5 Blood Angel assault squads lined up to sprint across the board is almost unbeatable for Tau.

Some older books just have match ups like this. Tau feel the heat from several popular lists, but most of the other are not impossible to overcome. Tau are still old and weak, though.


overwhelmed simply because they didn't have the necessary weight of fire
This is a problem that can only be overcome by slowing down the enemy - something that is not really possible in 40k outside of trying to put something in the way or feeding perfectly spaced sacrificial units.

[Tynskel]

15" baby! w00t!

[Uncle Nutsy]

Perhaps you just haven't grasped their style of play. I consider myself fairly good with Tau and Eldar, but I don't imagine I'd be particularly good with Orks, and although I play Dark Eldar I don't think I've quite figured out just how I should play my army yet.

I don't know, just a thought, maybe your usual style of play doesn't really suit how Tau should be played, whereas it does suit other armies?

move as much as you can, keep the valuable assets (crisis suits) out of assault range, target their most valuable assets first (synapse) and destroy it as fast as possible using combined arms?

It's the fact that shrikes were just faster and there just was not enough firepower available to deal with the unit effectively. Burst cannons and pulse rifles did a decent job at removing most of the models but the lucky few that got through was enough to remove an entire group of suits.

Tervigons, even though I was able to destroy two of three, still meant there were enough gaunts on the field to whether the storm of pie plates and still reach my units.

Even when I used kroot and kroot hounds as a speedbump/rapidfiring shooters it was still not enough.



But with dark eldar, I don't need to worry about such things. They DO have the weight of fire necessary to deal with fast moving targets such as shrikes and other jump infantry. They also have more effective counter units to slow down or even stop an impending assault (beastmasters, hellions) and using the tactics I developed with tau made me a force to be reckoned with. There's only three things that changed when I started playing DE. All mobility was shifted to the movement phase (from 6" to 12"), weight of fire increased and access to better counter-assault units. Everything else is exactly the same.

Tau just need a few things to be adjusted to become a solid force again. a boost in the movement phase, and a little higher rate of fire.