Jump Infantry the new 'Must have"?

[Tepogue]

I was looking over the 6th ed rumors and the rumor of Jump Infantry geting a free strike at I10 kinda of stuck out to me. Each time GW changes editions they purposefully make weak stuff from the previous set more powerful. I was designing what will probably be my final CSM army for 5th edition and looking at the list, I have no fast attack units at all. Looking at my other saved army lists. None of my Space Marine, Ork, or Tau lists include more than 1 Fast Attack choice. And the few armies that did have fast attack were vehicles or bikes, not a single Jump Infantry choice to be found. Looking around at various army lists I see posted this is not an uncommon occurance in other peoples armies.

Would a free I10 Strike ( I'm guessing it's a free attack not a free hit, though a free hit would be OTT) Make you consider using Jump Infantry in your armies?

Assault marines,
Stormboyz
Raptors,
Swooping Hawks

The New "In" units?

[Black Hydra]

I use Wraiths for my Necrons. They are already good, so they are worth it. They might be worth a lot more when 6th lands.

But overall, I think the new edition will make jump infantry what they are supposed to be, lightning fast alpha strikers. The 12" movement is nice but it doesn't really exemplify jump packers. So yeah, they'll be more viable.

[Kawauso]

If the rumour does pan out, colour me happy.

I've always loved jump infantry - I've got 20 Skyclaws in my Space Wolf army, even.

[jonsgot]

I'm hoping it's not true. I can't see the background for it anyway. While busy trying not to kill themselves landing, they managed to catch the defending unit unaware, even though they are flying through the sky in plain sight of everyone. It does sound like a black hole the 40k universe, Unless this is to do with arriving from reserve on top off an enemy unit.

[Black Hydra]

I'm hoping it's not true. I can't see the background for it anyway. While busy trying not to kill themselves landing, they managed to catch the defending unit unaware, even though they are flying through the sky in plain sight of everyone. It does sound like a black hole the 40k universe, Unless this is to do with arriving from reserve on top off an enemy unit.

Well if you can assault after deepstriking then that I10 attack makes sense. Though this is 40k. If you're not putting your models in mortal danger eventually, then you must be playing Tau.

[DrLove42]

Actually I think Fast Vehicles are the must have in armies now. And fliers.

How would jump infantry with power fists work?

But this is only based on unsubstantaited rumours that don't offer the full picture. Lets wait till the 23rd and we get a WD overview to decide.

[Kawauso]

I'm hoping it's not true. I can't see the background for it anyway. While busy trying not to kill themselves landing, they managed to catch the defending unit unaware, even though they are flying through the sky in plain sight of everyone. It does sound like a black hole the 40k universe, Unless this is to do with arriving from reserve on top off an enemy unit.

I think it makes sense.

What comes to mind is in Dawn of War or Space Marine where marines with jump packs literally fall on/among their intended target. Because they're massive, and they weigh multiple tons with their armour on, and it won't hurt them - so why not use their bodies as weapons for that initial strike?

As for xeno jump infantry - swooping in real fast (Swooping Hawks, Scourges) or teleporting into enemy lines (Warp Spiders, Wraiths) seems like a great way to sow confusion and give yourself an advantage.

[Wildcard]

It's a bit vague still on the rumors, but if its true that assault weapons act as a second ccw on the first round of combat, effectively giving another +1A on the charge (normal model getting +2 total) then i would definately consider the following:

GK Interceptor squads with falcions (and flamer & hammer combo to an extend).. Interceptor with falchions would effectively hit 4 times +1 at I10 if they charged (1A base, +1A falchions, +1A charge, +1A assault weapon(stormbolter)). Totalling 5A in a charge per model.

That would seriously make me consider dropping one stormraven doe a squad of 10ish Interceptors

:)

[MaltonNecromancer]

How would jump infantry with power fists work?

Sweet mercy.

I assume that it would be up to I10, then down again to I1. But if not?

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Like_e0df3c_1544086.jpg

I like the idea. It's totally unrealistic, but very 40K. Frankly, if you play 40K for realism, you've kind of come to the wrong place. 40K is a game where the plot is not so much lost as checked at the door before you come in.

[isotope99]

If it's impact hits from landing on their enemy then it may just be at normal strength AP- ignoring their weapon. That would bring it back to being more sensible.

[plawolf]

It's a bit vague still on the rumors, but if its true that assault weapons act as a second ccw on the first round of combat, effectively giving another +1A on the charge (normal model getting +2 total) then i would definately consider the following:

GK Interceptor squads with falcions (and flamer & hammer combo to an extend).. Interceptor with falchions would effectively hit 4 times +1 at I10 if they charged (1A base, +1A falchions, +1A charge, +1A assault weapon(stormbolter)). Totalling 5A in a charge per model.

That would seriously make me consider dropping one stormraven doe a squad of 10ish Interceptors

:)

Um, not quite.

Each model would get 1 hit, not 1 turn of attacks. Charge/weapons/whatever bonuses would only factor in what the actual CC phase happens.

I would also expect this to be just a normal hit at the model's baseline strength irrespective of what wargear they have (that again, will only come into play in the proper CC phase), so you won't have the ridiculous notion of I10 powerfists or thunderhammers and whatnot.

[DarkLink]

right, I think people are overestimating what the rule actually does. And besides, how many jump infantry units are there that are actually already good? Interceptors, Hellions, Gargoyles?

[inquisitorsog]

How would jump infantry with power fists work?

Very well.


Anyway, did someone mention something silly about realism? My point of view is colored by the fact that the first wargame I regularly played was battletech. Three beautiful words come to mind:

DEATH FROM ABOVE!!!!!!!

Anyway ... realism? In a world where we've got lascannons that can reach out and touch someone, we've got guys walking across open fields carrying nothing but melee weapons. I think realism got checked at the door already.

[Eberk]

I always thought Jump Infantry were good (or should I say: cool, nice, fun), hence the 10 or 15 strong Stormboyz unit in my army.

Granted they still have to survive their first game but, hey, that's the point of jump infantry/Ork Stormboyz: soften up the enemy and tying them up so they can't move/shoot... and when the Stormboyz are wiped out the sea of Orks is in charge range.


That said, I always found it kinda weird that the charging unit may not strike first (in the first round of combat). I think that's something I remembered from a previous edition.

But hey... rulez are rulez and I will cope with 6th edition (change army, change tactics,...) just as I did with 5th edition

These are exciting times my friends :)

[Wolfshade]

I play BA, Jump Squads have always been a must have!

[L192837465]

I love my raptor squads! 5 raptors with 2 meltaguns and a champ with a powerfist are HILARIOUSLY effective already!

[Mr Mystery]

I'm not sure I believe this rumour to be honest. Traditionally, the bonus of being jump infantry is..well....being jump infantry! Faster move, traditionally good weapon options, ability to deepstrike....

Not saying I know better like, but this just seems really, REALLY wishlisty.

[Wildcard]

Um, not quite.

Each model would get 1 hit, not 1 turn of attacks. Charge/weapons/whatever bonuses would only factor in what the actual CC phase happens.

You misunderstood my point. Let me put it more simply (still taking the rumors i listed before into account):

When you charge: you get to hit 4 times per interceptor and the bonus I10 hit at whatever profile it will.
Thats a possibility for 5 wounds per model total.

Thats a provess enough for me to justify the change from stormraven to a squad of X member Interceptor squad.

As a note: current normal loadout the attacks on the charge is 2 attacks per model, and with ridiculously high price to get it to 3 on the charge (at the same time giving up I6 for example)

[Defenestratus]

You misunderstood my point. Let me put it more simply (still taking the rumors i listed before into account):

When you charge: you get to hit 4 times per interceptor and the bonus I10 hit at whatever profile it will.
Thats a possibility for 5 wounds per model total.

Thats a provess enough for me to justify the change from stormraven to a squad of X member Interceptor squad.

As a note: current normal loadout the attacks on the charge is 2 attacks per model, and with ridiculously high price to get it to 3 on the charge (at the same time giving up I6 for example)

You're making a bunch of unfounded assumptions in your logic.

You assume that you still get +1A for charging.

You assume that you still get +1A for a second CCW.

You assume that the "bonus" hit happens in addition to your current attacks instead of perhaps in liieu of.

[Wildcard]

You're making a bunch of unfounded assumptions in your logic.

From my first post:


If

That pretty much sums it..

If it is so, i might find use for the Interceptors instead of stormraven.. Based on some rumors, none has the power yet to say if they are right or wrong ones..

:)


You assume that you still get +1A for charging.

You assume that you still get +1A for a second CCW.


You got a point, yet no last word for those two yet, hence i was refering to the rumors.


You assume that the "bonus" hit happens in addition to your current attacks instead of perhaps in liieu of.

In this you are correct. I wouldn't see any reason why any unit would want to trade their multiple lower ini attacks (and possibly special weapon rules) for one single I10 attack.

But, once again, we have no idea of the profile of the attack. Hell, it could even be so that you "drop" your jumping marines into the midst of the enemy, and before defenders reacts (as we know them now) you would place a 3" blast on top of each of your marines and calculated the "hits" (from a blastwave/smash you caused when you splashed in their midst)

Its gonna be funny two weeks ahead of us

;)

[L192837465]

But, once again, we have no idea of the profile of the attack. Hell, it could even be so that you "drop" your jumping marines into the midst of the enemy, and before defenders reacts (as we know them now) you would place a 3" blast on top of each of your marines and calculated the "hits" (from a blastwave/smash you caused when you splashed in their midst)

Its gonna be funny two weeks ahead of us

;)

Oh dear lord let THAT be true! That would be HILARIOUS!

[LordGrise]

I would so dearly love this to be true it's not funny.

But there is no way I'm going to believe that my over-priced, next-to-worthless combat drones are going to be the new kryptonite.

[DarkLink]

I have to wonder, why don't Jump Infantry don't have Hit and Run by default? They can literally fly away, after all. They don't have to outrun their opponents or anything.

[sangrail777]

I've got over 80 Blood Angels with jump packs that are just gonna have a great edition if this turns out to be true.

[Wildcard]

I have to wonder, why don't Jump Infantry don't have Hit and Run by default? They can literally fly away, after all. They don't have to outrun their opponents or anything.

Well, depending on the source, jump pacs got either "hard wired" or "manual activation" mechanisms. If latter, you would have to stop fighting (atleast with one hand) to press the activation, and that could be fatal..

And if ruled out that jump packs are hard wired to some control mechanism, then the issue could be that if you just skyrocketed away, enemy could easily regroup and fire at your back with everything they have, not the most welcome scenario..

/EDIT
Ofc this wouldn't be a problem with units that equip teleportation packs, like GK interceptors and warp spiders.. but thats secondary ;)
EDIT/

OR

(atleast marine wise) Its just that, that when the object is chosen for the destruction, it will be destroyed, before moving to the next target :)

[Wolfshade]

I think the trouble is with these rumours/whiochlists that we only get part so we don't know how they interact with the whole ruleset. It might be perfectly balanced when taken into account the other rules.

[Chris*ta]

From my first post:

In this you are correct. I wouldn't see any reason why any unit would want to trade their multiple lower ini attacks (and possibly special weapon rules) for one single I10 attack.

But, once again, we have no idea of the profile of the attack. Hell, it could even be so that you "drop" your jumping marines into the midst of the enemy, and before defenders reacts (as we know them now) you would place a 3" blast on top of each of your marines and calculated the "hits" (from a blastwave/smash you caused when you splashed in their midst)

Its gonna be funny two weeks ahead of us

;)

I heard that in the new edition, with Jump Troops you can either "drop" the attacking minis on the attacking unit, or else "throw" the minis at your opponent's face.

So, who's converting up a metal BA Dreadnought Librarian for release of the new edition?

[Wolfshade]

Why convert there is already a nice model for it :p

[Chris*ta]

Why convert there is already a nice model for it :p

That models plastic. If you're throwing at your opponent you want the weight of lead.

That'll put them down and keep them down :)

Moving this thread further off topic, am I the only one who's tempted to take the force halberd arm of the Librarian Dreadnought and the power drill bit from the Killa Kanz kit to make a drill arm for an Ironclad?

The kits were even released in the same month.

[Wolfshade]

Oh I see what you did there!
Sorry Friday afternoon feeling a bit slow.
My furioso is all metal beasty rar rar rar that would cause trouble.
Also I find your thread de-railment abit ametuerish, behold Teentch's Dark Agent and I for the skillz ;)

But yeah that drill arm would work really well. Actually, I would lvoe to kit-bash some nob weaponry to some Space Marines I think it would be a really good Flesh Tearers theme

[bforber]

God so much rules lawyering on whether a Dreadknight or a Furioso Librarian with Wings gets to use this ability. Yes! So much internet arguing.

Anyway, for all we know it might be a free hit at half weapon skill or something like that. It could be awesome, but it could also just be a small bone to throw at the people who claim their jump infantry isn't good enough.

[Kawauso]

God so much rules lawyering on whether a Dreadknight or a Furioso Librarian with Wings gets to use this ability. Yes! So much internet arguing.
.

If this rule is true, and applies to jump infantry, then any 'rules lawyering' in this regard will be easy to shut down.

"Moves as/like jump infantry" does not make you jump infantry. You just move like them. No bonus.

[Wolfshade]

"Moves as/like jump infantry" does not make you jump infantry. You just move like them. No bonus.

Exactly! Unless of course you misinterpret it for your own advantage (read: cheat)

[Wildcard]

Why would GK interceptors get the bonus, but NDK wouldn't? Their means of movement is exactly the same?

Not trying to pick a fight, nor am i trolling, just genuinely wondering.

Its not about realism per se but more like being able to anchor your thought to something believable

I know its easy to say that basic jump pack marines land on top of enemy, hence the hit (i know that if someone would drop a car on me, it would probably hurt abit..)

But then, what about interceptors, they just materialise next to their oppoenents. Unless there is some serious psychic backslash from entering through warp (or whatever the teleportation itself uses as a conduit to movement), there is no similar bang that the assault marines deliver..

Yet, if the interceptors aren't ruled out of having such an ability, then what makes the NDK with teleport pack any different?

Again, not picking up for a fight, just wondering the logic.

[Wolfshade]

If rumours are to be believed nemisis dreadknights would get the MC buff when assaulting

[Wildcard]

Hmm, what rumors gave MCs buff (and what kind of buff, i must have missed that)?

[Wolfshade]

Something like this:

Monstrous Creatures have access to a special "Smash" attack, allowing them to halve their attacks, but double their strength. It mentions that this gives them the ability to destroy tanks more easily.
(http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/480/455813.page#4420307)

[Defenestratus]

Can my Librarian Dreads do a jump attack at I10 at S10? :P

[Wildcard]

hmm, that doesnt seem like a grand buff for ndk especially with sword. Str 6-7 +2d6 ap, rerolling pen rolls. Unless ofc, there will be some new modifier to the damage table. 2rolls for each damqge, +1 like current ap1 or similar. Its never been about tanks that cause trouble to the ndk, but infantry. oh well :)

[Xenith]

Can my Librarian Dreads do a jump attack at I10 at S10? :P
No.

[Kawauso]

Can my Librarian Dreads do a jump attack at I10 at S10? :P

Not according to our (limited) understanding of the rules as of now.

Though if jump infantry get 'impact hits', anything on a 60mm base or larger should get a large blast 'impact hit' before it lands in a combat. xP Wonder if there would be any way to balance that...

[Wolfshade]

Defensive springs,
When assaulted by minatures with large bases, the defenders may deploy springs. on the result of a successful impact attack the large based minature can be bounced D6" scatter without a wound being inflicted. The bounced minature may need to take difficult/dangerous terrain tests.

[Kawauso]

Sounds like something Orks would concoct.

And it would be fueled by their power of positive thinking!

[Gwyidion]

It doesn't really appear to change the overall mechanism of jump infantry, or, in other words, JI that were already worth taking will be better, but JI that weren't worth taking won't be worth taking now.

Swooping hawks might - might - be worth taking to deal with hard-to-hit skimmers with haywires. If glances take hull points, whatever they charge is very dead... but they're still 20+pt t3 4+sv models. Though could be made tougher by being hard to hit.... sigh. Too SOON!!!

more rumors please!

[Kawauso]

I dunno, I think it goes a way towards improving some of the less desirable jump infantry, like vanilla assault marines, Skyclaws, etc. To the point where they might be worth taking aside from just for fun.

[plawolf]

I'm surprised GK haters out there have not been more happy with the JI I10 attack bonus. It would certainly make 5 men Purifier spam lists become a hell of a lot more risky.

It would also be interesting to see at what sequence these bonus attacks apply wrt cleansing flame.

Even if cleansing flame does still go first, JI would suddenly be a lot more effective against high I opponents like Halberts, genestealers and wenches etc, although admittedly, JI will be far more effective against units with poor armor saves like wenches and stealers as opposed to PAGK or TAGK. So it continues the trend of more power to power armed armies sadly.

[Kawauso]

It would also be interesting to see at what sequence these bonus attacks apply wrt cleansing flame.



Cleansing Flame goes before blows are struck, so it still trumps I10.

[Gwyidion]

GK with a trump card? Say it aint so.

[plawolf]

Cleansing Flame goes before blows are struck, so it still trumps I10.

Well, at least in 6th Ed a full JI squad would get a chance to take down a good number of purifiers before they get to jab at you with their pointy magic sticks. ;)

You should be able to take down a couple of purifiers on average with 10 JI even with cleansing flame, so that's fewer halberts attacks back, which gives your JI a decent chance of ending CC against a 5 men squad on their turn, thus avoiding another roasting by cleansing flame next turn.

Not ideal, but far better than how they would fare at present.

[DarkLink]

Cleansing flame isn't exactly overpowering againt, say, Assault Marines. In fact, Cleansing Flame is really only super awesome against Orks, nidz, and one or two DE units. Other than that, it's just a small situational bonus, but Hammerhand will often do more damage.

[eldargal]

Not to mention it may be more difficult for GK to get the powers they like up. If the WFB precedent follows there may be more than just passing a leadership test, they may need to use a limited number of power dice and there may even be dispelling or miscasts.

[bforber]

If this rule is true, and applies to jump infantry, then any 'rules lawyering' in this regard will be easy to shut down.

"Moves as/like jump infantry" does not make you jump infantry. You just move like them. No bonus.

Well, I know that, but there are still people arguing about rules that came out when the edition was released however many years ago. I expect vague phrasing to be almost as prevalent as imagery of space marines stomping everything with a face going HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

So, yea.

[GrogDaTyrant]

I think the boost and 'must-have' status for Jump Infantry will largely depend upon the army, and the unit itself. I can't see the I10 impact hits doing much for Swooping Hawks for instance, and Stormboyz currently need a lot more than a handful of I10 attacks.