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MikhailLenin
09-24-2009, 02:26 AM
Now, I had a very bloody game tonight against Orks and I raised an argument which I find entertained but never truly clarified. Everyone knows my stance on the KFF and my deep hatred of it. Well tonight, I argued that a 3 Killa Kan unit cannot receive "Obscured" Status from the KFF if only 1 of them is within the KFF.

My argument was that since the Walkers are a Squadron and hence are under the Vehicle Squadron Rules, they need to be at least 50% Obscured to received total of their squadrons to be be obscured, to me at the time the Vehicle Squadron rule does not Contradict in any which form the rule from the Codex which I have right here:


Kustom Force Field: Meks will build or scavenge powerful force field projectors with which to protect their warty hides. A kustom force field gives all units within 6" of the Mek a cover save of 5+. Vehicles within 6" are treated as being obscured targets. The force field has no effect in an assault.

Now notice that the sentence in which refers to units: "A kustom force field gives all units within 6" of the Mek a cover save of 5+."

By that logic, the squadron is guaranteed a 5+ Cover save if 1 of the walker is within 6" because the sentence fails to specify if this only affects infantry or non-vehicle.

In regards to vehicles it says: "Vehicles within 6" are treated as being obscured targets."

To my understanding this means that for the Walker Squadron to receive "Obscure" status, it needs 2 of the 3 Killa Kans to be within 6" of the KFF. As this sentence does not refer anywhere to Vehicle Squadron.

So in conclusion, is that Vehicle Squadron who are covered by less than 50% of their number but within 6 inches have a 5+ cover save, but if they are 50% or more withing 6" of the KFF than they receive the "obscure" save.

Notice how no where in the rule of the KFF does it break the Vehicle Squadron Rules from the Rulebook and hence both rules exist to complement each other thus the Codex does not override the rulebook because there is nothing to override.

SeattleDV8
09-24-2009, 02:38 AM
Hmmm I was going to disagree but on re-reading the Squadron rules I believe you are correct.

BDub
09-24-2009, 07:30 AM
I mostly agree - with one slight exception. I think only the vehicles within 6" get the "obscured" status. Not all if more that 50% are within 6". This is a KFF after all and not actual terrain giving the status.

Churlton
09-24-2009, 12:21 PM
A damn good point, I think that you have nailed the 50% sqn idea; unless I am too lenient ... if the majority of an infantry unit (ie >50%) are in cover, then I give them the cover save. This in my eyes counteracts the "see 1 model of the squad .... hits/wounds are allocated to the whole squad" eg los to 1 model.

If 1/3 were in range of the KFF then only hits allocated to that particular vehicle/ walker within the sqn (I would firstly assign a hit to that vehicle ) & any pen/glancing to that vehiclewould get the coversave chance.

MikhailLenin
09-24-2009, 01:51 PM
In continuation to the argument, I have compiled a set of rules which to me points to the right direction of the KFF.

GW classifies Non-Vehicle or Non-Monstrous Creatures units as Normal Units, while the other two are classified as Extra-Normal Units, but both are classified as Units.


"Vehicle units include all kinds of war machines. Battle Tanks, grav-tanks, Monoliths and Dreadnoughts all fall into this category."

So now that vehicles are classified as a unit, lets review the KFF rule:


"Kustom Force Field: Meks will build or scavenge powerful force field projectors with which to protect their warty hides. A kustom force field gives all units within 6" of the Mek a cover save of 5+. Vehicles within 6" are treated as being obscured targets. The force field has no effect in an assault."

Clearly explained in the rules it refers to all units which just proven includes everything from Infantry, to MC, to Bikes and Vehicles. But what does it mean when vehicles within6" are treated as being obscured targets? So we look at page 62 for the rule on obscurement:


If a special rule or a piece of wargear confers to a vehicle the ability of being obscured even if in the open, this is a 4+ cover save, unless specified otherwise in the Codex.

Notice that this is a 4+ cover save, unless specified otherwise in the Codex, which to any English reader can clearly see that it is because the previous sentence says specifically that units are granted a 5+ cover save. Obscurement for vehicles is dependent on LoS and what terrain they are hiding in or behind. If your tank is obscured from behind tall grass than he receives a different save. Since the KFF overrides only the LoS hinder rule in conclusion to the question if the tank is obscure and jumps straight into the category of obscurity, the vehicle still only benefits of the cover save that is granted by the wargear / terrain it is obscured by.

To me this is crystal clear and I am of the understanding that Phil Kelly didn't miss write the rule now. It is just that everyone failed to read the rule properly, including myself.

Nabterayl
09-24-2009, 02:46 PM
In continuation to the argument, I have compiled a set of rules which to me points to the right direction of the KFF.

GW classifies Non-Vehicle or Non-Monstrous Creatures units as Normal Units, while the other two are classified as Extra-Normal Units, but both are classified as Units.



So now that vehicles are classified as a unit, lets review the KFF rule:



Clearly explained in the rules it refers to all units which just proven includes everything from Infantry, to MC, to Bikes and Vehicles. But what does it mean when vehicles within6" are treated as being obscured targets? So we look at page 62 for the rule on obscurement:



Notice that this is a 4+ cover save, unless specified otherwise in the Codex, which to any English reader can clearly see that it is because the previous sentence says specifically that units are granted a 5+ cover save. Obscurement for vehicles is dependent on LoS and what terrain they are hiding in or behind. If your tank is obscured from behind tall grass than he receives a different save. Since the KFF overrides only the LoS hinder rule in conclusion to the question if the tank is obscure and jumps straight into the category of obscurity, the vehicle still only benefits of the cover save that is granted by the wargear / terrain it is obscured by.

To me this is crystal clear and I am of the understanding that Phil Kelly didn't miss write the rule now. It is just that everyone failed to read the rule properly, including myself.
I'm a little confused by which conclusion you just reached. Did you just conclude that the KFF provides individual vehicles a 4+ cover save, regardless of the disposition of their squadronmates, or did you just conclude that the KFF obscures squadrons according to the normal rules for squadrons?

MikhailLenin
09-24-2009, 03:23 PM
The conclusion is that vehicles obscured by the KFF are only granted a 5+ cover save and that for a squadron to be classified by a KFF they need to be at least 50% inside the 6" bubble.

sorienor
09-24-2009, 11:22 PM
And that is the wrong conclusion. Here is why:

BRB, Pg3 "if any model in a unit is within x", then the unit is within x inches"

Thus, if 1 can is "within" the kff, they all count as "within" the kff.

Thus they are all obscured.

Thus they all receive a 4+ cover save.

MikhailLenin
09-24-2009, 11:31 PM
That still does not satisfy the way Vehicle Squadron Rules work, since it requires you to measure from each vehicle in the squadron to determine if it is Obscured or not. Vehicles cannot have a cover save unless they are obscured.

And this 4+ Obscured save you claim to have, is stated to only be a 4+ unless otherwise specified in your codex as per page 62, since the KFF rules does otherwise specify in a global non discriminatory term that all units receive a 5+ save than I see no reason why you warrant to receive a 4+ save.

The reason the second line sentence states that vehicles are obscured is because the only way a vehicle in 5th edition can receive a cover save is if it is obscured as per what page 62 explains. [Edit] If if it is in the open, it must be granted obscure status to receive a cover save, as per Smoke Launcher Rules explains on page 62.

sorienor
09-24-2009, 11:35 PM
That still does not satisfy the way Vehicle Squadron Rules work, since it requires you to measure from each vehicle in the squadron to determine if it is Obscured or not. Vehicles cannot have a cover save unless they are obscured.

And this 4+ Obscured save you claim to have, is stated to only be a 4+ unless otherwise specified in your codex as per page 62, since the KFF rules does otherwise specify in a global non discriminatory term that all units receive a 5+ save than I see no reason why you warrant to receive a 4+ save.

The reason the second line sentence states that vehicles are obscured is because the only way a vehicle in 5th edition can receive a cover save is if it is obscured as per what page 62 explains.

-No you don't have to measure, because the "within" rules on page 3 *automatically* makes every single model obscured.

-Because they are two different sentences, and thus 2 different rules. The KFF does *NOT* specify a save for vehicles - it specifies they are obscured. It may be a consequence of 4e wording in 5e, but you can find those everywhere in every codex made before 5e came out.

MikhailLenin
09-24-2009, 11:52 PM
-No you don't have to measure, because the "within" rules on page 3 *automatically* makes every single model obscured.

-Because they are two different sentences, and thus 2 different rules. The KFF does *NOT* specify a save for vehicles - it specifies they are obscured. It may be a consequence of 4e wording in 5e, but you can find those everywhere in every codex made before 5e came out.

The Ork codex was written with 5th Edition in mind since it has "Rammming Wargear" how does the wording make a difference since the codex was written with 5th present in their writing of the codex.

You are not giving me a counter argument to how Vehicle Squadron Rules work other than claiming that a unit within 6" of the KFF is withing 6" of the KFF.

And I disagree, the KFF does specify a save for Vehicles in his first line where it says all units receive a 5+ cover save which according to page 4 and 5 of the rulebook states what considers something a unit.

Nabterayl
09-25-2009, 12:08 AM
-No you don't have to measure, because the "within" rules on page 3 *automatically* makes every single model obscured.

-Because they are two different sentences, and thus 2 different rules. The KFF does *NOT* specify a save for vehicles - it specifies they are obscured. It may be a consequence of 4e wording in 5e, but you can find those everywhere in every codex made before 5e came out.

They are different sentences, but you're misquoting them. The first sentence is:


A kustom force field gives all units within 6" of the Mek a cover save of 5+.

Because of the rules on measuring distance to a unit you quote, if a squadron of vehicles has at least one model within 6" of the KFF mek, the entire squadron receives a 5+ cover save.

The second sentence is:


Vehicles within 6" are treated as being obscured targets.

It does not say that vehicle units within 6" are treated as being obscured targets - just vehicles.

Thus, it is out of the question that if only one vehicle in a three-model squadron is within 6" of the mek the entire squadron would count as Obscured.

What is a question under those circumstances is whether
one vehicle counts as obscured and thus receives a 4+ cover save (for being a "vehicle within 6"") while the other two vehicles receive only a 5+ cover save (for being part of a "unit[] within 6""), or
one vehicle counts as obscured but does not receive a 4+ cover save, because being obscured only grants a cover save to models in a squadron if at least 50% of the squadron is obscured.

I was previously of the opinion that #1 was right, but MikhailLenin has convinced me that #2 is right. As you yourself note, the KFF does not ever explicitly grant vehicles a 4+ cover save (if it did, then #1 would be right, as you don't need to be in cover to receive a cover save). Instead, the KFF grants vehicles within 6" Obscured status.

The squadron rules on page 64 provide that no vehicle in a squadron receives a cover save from being Obscured unless at least 50% of the squadron is Obscured (in other words, at least 50% of 50% of the squadron's models must be non-visible to the firer). Hence, if only one vehicle out of a three-vehicle squadron is within 6" of the KFF, the analysis goes like this:

Is vehicle A obscured? Yes, because it is within 6" of the mek.
Are vehicles B and C obscured? No, because they are not within 6" of the mek.
Does vehicle A receive a 4+ cover save? No, because while A is obscured, not enough of A's squadron is obscured.
Does vehicle A receive a 5+ cover save? Yes, because A's unit is within 6" of the mek by virtue of A being within 6" of the mek.
Do vehicles B and C receive a 5+ cover save? Yes, because B's and C's unit is within 6" of the mek by virtue of A being within 6" of the mek.

DarkLink
09-25-2009, 01:52 PM
KFF saves do not follow the normal means for gaining a cover save. You don't have to ensure that 50% or more of the unit is within 50%, you don't need to have 50% of LOS blocked to the unit, etc. The KFF has its own, unique rules.

If a unit is within 6" (that is any single model within the unit), the ENTIRE unit gets a 5+ save. A vehicle squadron is a unit. A vehicle squadron with a model within 6" of a KFF gains a cover save on all of its models, because that is what the rules says the KFF does. You can't use the normal rules for getting cover saves, as they are irrelevant to the KFF's unique rules. If you had to follow the normal cover save rules, then a unit could only gain a cover save from a KFF if more than 50% of the unit was within 6", which is not the case.

MikhailLenin
09-25-2009, 02:42 PM
KFF saves do not follow the normal means for gaining a cover save. You don't have to ensure that 50% or more of the unit is within 50%, you don't need to have 50% of LOS blocked to the unit, etc. The KFF has its own, unique rules.

If a unit is within 6" (that is any single model within the unit), the ENTIRE unit gets a 5+ save. A vehicle squadron is a unit. A vehicle squadron with a model within 6" of a KFF gains a cover save on all of its models, because that is what the rules says the KFF does. You can't use the normal rules for getting cover saves, as they are irrelevant to the KFF's unique rules. If you had to follow the normal cover save rules, then a unit could only gain a cover save from a KFF if more than 50% of the unit was within 6", which is not the case.

That is true until you get to Vehicles, by definition a vehicle can only get a cover save if it is obscured. Even the Rulebook which states if a piece of wargear gives "Obscurity" than it receives a 4+ cover save unless otherwise specified.

The next step is reading the rules on Vehicle Squadron which states that each individual vehicle needs to be marked if it is obscured or not independently of the other vehicles in the squadron. If only 1 of 3 is obscured than yes they all cover from the KFF but only 1 is obscured which means that the overall squad is not obscured which means you cannot use that cover save since more than half the squad is not obscured. This has nothing to do with Infantry, that is how Vehicle cover works. You need to be obscured to be able to use a cover save. You can be in a Ruin or a Forest but if you aren't obscured than you do not get a cover save. Obscurity in a Vehicle sense has nothing to do with Infantry since these work differently for cover. The only reference the Vehicle Squadron states to use as Normal Unit rules for cover is in reference to which half is in cover or not. We determine that KFF gives them all cover but does not necessarily give them all obscurity.

Also, it is stated that obscurity given by a piece of wargear for vehicles is a 4+ cover save unless specified. The KFF specifically gives all units a 5+ cover, the only reason that second line exists in the KFF rules is to specify that vehicles are obscured because knowing full well how 5th ed works for Vehicle cover when they wrote this codex, a vehicle must have obscurity to have a cover save. To me this is a clear indication that both lines were written to compliment each other and in no way disagree or contradict anything in the rulebook.

sorienor
09-25-2009, 03:06 PM
It does not say that vehicle units within 6" are treated as being obscured targets - just vehicles.

um, vehicles ARE units - by definition - the number of vehicles in the unit is completely irrelevant, just like the number of infantry in a unit is completely irrelevant. Vehicle squadrons are units.

Thus by pg3 if one model is "within" a measurement, then all models in the unit are counted as being "within" said measurement. this is one of the most fundamental mechanics of the game. This is what allows an entire unit to assault if only one is actually in range, for example. Thus, if one kan is in range of the KFF, all the kans are counted as being within range, and are thus obscured.

MikhailLenin
09-25-2009, 03:26 PM
Page 3 Rule does not explain how to deal with cover and obscurity, all it states once again, is that if a model is withing range than the unit is within range. But that still does not apply to vehicles because vehicles cannot use cover unless they are obscured, and as previously said, not be me, the KFF only refers to Vehicles within 6" when it comes to Obscurity. Yes, the unit is in Cover, no the unit is not obscured, than no the Vehicle Unit does not get cover saves. A tank in forest does not get forest saves unless it is obscured by the trees. A infantry unit in a wooded area terrain can claim a cover save even if there is 1 tree and none them are obscured.

There is a giant difference between the two. Cover works differently for both vehicles/MC than Infantry.

Nabterayl
09-25-2009, 03:31 PM
um, vehicles ARE units - by definition - the number of vehicles in the unit is completely irrelevant, just like the number of infantry in a unit is completely irrelevant. Vehicle squadrons are units.

That's true, but beside the point. "Vehicles" is not the same thing as "unit," any more than "infantry" is the same thing as "unit." The fact that vehicle squadrons are units means that vehicle squadrons are subject to the rule "A kustom force field gives all units within 6" of the Mek a cover save of 5+." The fact that single vehicles are also units means that a unit of a single vehicle is also subject to the rule "A kustom force field gives all units within 6" of the Mek a cover save of 5+."

Saying "Vehicles within 6" count as obscured targets" is more like saying "Models within 6" count as being in cover" than saying, "Units of vehicles within 6" count as obscured targets." A single model in a squadron within 6" of X places that unit within 6" of X. It does not follow that all vehicles in the squadron are within 6" of X. Similarly, if a single model of an infantry squad is within 6" of X, the entire unit is within 6", but only one model is within 6".


That is true until you get to Vehicles, by definition a vehicle can only get a cover save if it is obscured.
That isn't true. Being obscured confers a cover save to a vehicle. It does not follow, and the rulebook does not state, that vehicles can only receive a cover save when they are obscured.

A KFF potentially does two things to a vehicle unit. It will confer a 5+ cover save to any unit, including a unit that consists of one or more vehicles, within 6". It will confer Obscured status to any vehicle within 6".

In order to find out whether Obscured status has any effect on a unit, we need to know how many vehicles are in that unit and how many of them are Obscured. If the unit consists of a single vehicle, then the unit receives a 4+ cover save, according to page 62. If the unit consists of more than one vehicle, Obscured status only provides a 4+ cover safe if 50% or more of the unit is Obscured, according to page 64. It is entirely possible, if a vehicle is in a squadron, for a vehicle to be Obscured and not receive a cover save. It is even possible for a vehicle, if that vehicle is in a squadron, to be completely hidden from the firer's point of view and not receive a cover save.

DarkLink
09-25-2009, 03:43 PM
Page 3 Rule does not explain how to deal with cover and obscurity, all it states once again, is that if a model is withing range than the unit is within range. But that still does not apply to vehicles because vehicles cannot use cover unless they are obscured, and as previously said, not be me, the KFF only refers to Vehicles within 6" when it comes to Obscurity. Yes, the unit is in Cover, no the unit is not obscured, than no the Vehicle Unit does not get cover saves. A tank in forest does not get forest saves unless it is obscured by the trees. A infantry unit in a wooded area terrain can claim a cover save even if there is 1 tree and none them are obscured.

There is a giant difference between the two. Cover works differently for both vehicles/MC than Infantry.

Vehicles only getting cover saves from LOS blocking and obscurity are general rules. They cancel out the normal area terrain type saves. But Codex>BRB. The KFF is a specific rule that grants whole units 5+ saves. Vehicles are units, and vehicle squadrons are units. Because this is a specific rule and Codex>BRB, KFF's grant vehicles (and vehicle squadrons) cover saves.

Mentioning obscurity in the vehicle cover save section is included because pretty much all the non-5th ed codecies only ever use the term obscured when referring to vehicles. GW had to include that statement so that all those codecies wouldn't get gyped out of some of their special rules.


There seem to be two parts to the "no coversave" argument:
1. Vehicles don't get cover from a KFF at all. I disagree with this, as mentioned above. I also read about Ork players using KFF's to get cover saves on trukks and such regularly, so I think the majority of them will disagree with this argument as well.

2. Vehicle squadrons somehow don't count at units, and so only the vehicles within 6" get the saves (if they get them at all from a KFF). This is flat out wrong. Vehicle squadrons are a unit consisting of vehicles. In fact, the BRB has this to say (emphasis mine):
"Units of Vehicles - Squadrons
Most vehicles fight as individual units and are represented by a single model. However, some small vehicles, like Ork Warbuggies and Eldar Vypers, operate in units of more than one vehicle, known as squadrons. These follow the rules for normal units, with the following exceptions..."
The only exception mentioned that could deny a unit of vehicle(s) a cover save is the one mentioned in the point above. Anyone claiming that vehicles don't get cover saves because they aren't units needs to reread the BRB.

MikhailLenin
09-25-2009, 03:48 PM
Vehicles only getting cover saves from LOS blocking and obscurity are general rules. They cancel out the normal area terrain type saves. But Codex>BRB. The KFF is a specific rule that grants whole units 5+ saves. Vehicles are units, and vehicle squadrons are units. Because this is a specific rule and Codex>BRB, KFF's grant vehicles (and vehicle squadrons) cover saves.

Mentioning obscurity in the vehicle cover save section is included because pretty much all the non-5th ed codecies only ever use the term obscured when referring to vehicles. GW had to include that statement so that all those codecies wouldn't get gyped out of some of their special rules.


There seem to be two parts to the "no coversave" argument:
1. Vehicles don't get cover from a KFF at all. I disagree with this, as mentioned above. I also read about Ork players using KFF's to get cover saves on trukks and such regularly, so I think the majority of them will disagree with this argument as well.

2. Vehicle squadrons somehow don't count at units, and so only the vehicles within 6" get the saves (if they get them at all from a KFF). This is flat out wrong. Vehicle squadrons are a unit consisting of vehicles. In fact, the BRB has this to say (emphasis mine):
"Units of Vehicles - Squadrons
Most vehicles fight as individual units and are represented by a single model. However, some small vehicles, like Ork Warbuggies and Eldar Vypers, operate in units of more than one vehicle, known as squadrons. These follow the rules for normal units, with the following exceptions..."
The only exception mentioned that could deny a unit of vehicle(s) a cover save is the one mentioned in the point above. Anyone claiming that vehicles don't get cover saves because they aren't units needs to reread the BRB.


I am not trying to argue that Vehicles cannot receive cover saves, I am pointing out that in order for a vehicle to receive cover he needs to be obscured, which is something the KFF clearly points out. An argument is if the KFF portion regarding vehicle obscurity was removed, than by RAW everything gets a 5+ cover save but the Rulebook states that a piece of wargear can only grant cover to vehicles if they are classified as Obscured. So the second line of the KFF is necessary, look at smoke launchers, it states specifically that a vehicle is both obscured and receives a 4+ cover save. It is pretty clear that the only time a vehicle can claim cover is if he is obscured. Cover does not generate obscurity automatically, it needs legitimate obscurity or a wargear that states obscurity.

Nabterayl
09-25-2009, 04:12 PM
but the Rulebook states that a piece of wargear can only grant cover to vehicles if they are classified as Obscured.

That's not true. Re-read page 62:


If a special rule or a piece of wargear confers to a vehicle the ability of being obscured even if in the open, this is a4+ cover save, unless specified otherwise in the Codex.

The rulebook says that if wargear classifies a vehicle as Obscured it receives a 4+ cover save. That is not at all the same thing as saying a vehicle can only receive a cover save if a piece of wargear classifies it as Obscured.

MikhailLenin
09-25-2009, 04:44 PM
That's not true. Re-read page 62:


If a special rule or a piece of wargear confers to a vehicle the ability of being obscured even if in the open, this is a4+ cover save, unless specified otherwise in the Codex.

The rulebook says that if wargear classifies a vehicle as Obscured it receives a 4+ cover save. That is not at all the same thing as saying a vehicle can only receive a cover save if a piece of wargear classifies it as Obscured.'

On that same page it says specifically that "If the Target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it." which leads me to believe that the intention is only obscured vehicles may take cover saves. The rule you quoting also states that is a 4+ save unless specified, as I recall the first line of the KFF says explicitly that all units receive a 5+ cover save. A Vehicle can be in cover and not be eligible for a cover save:

"At least 50% of the facing of the vehicle that is being targeted needs to be hidden by an intervening terrain or models from the point of view of the firer for the vehicle to claim to be in cover."

which, to my reading

means that a vehicle can indeed simply have the condition "in cover" but does not grant it cover save unless it is obscured.

Nabterayl
09-25-2009, 05:20 PM
On that same page it says specifically that "If the Target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it." which leads me to believe that the intention is only obscured vehicles may take cover saves.
But that isn't what it says, or logically implies.

If A, then X implies If not X, then not A. It does not imply If not A, then not X.

For instance, if a person lives in the United States, then that person lives in North America tells us that if a person does not live in North America, then that person does not live in the United States. It would be false to infer that if a person does not live in the United States, then that person does not live in North America.

Similarly, the sentence you quote says that if a target is obscured and takes a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save. Therefore, if the target may not take a cover save, then it is not obscured. It would be false to infer that if the target is not obscured, then it may not take a cover save.

A "cover save" is just a status that a model has. A model doesn't have to be "in cover" to claim a "cover save" - they just sound alike, because being "in cover" is the most common way to get the "cover save" status.

DarkLink
09-25-2009, 07:23 PM
I am not trying to argue that Vehicles cannot receive cover saves, I am pointing out that in order for a vehicle to receive cover he needs to be obscured, which is something the KFF clearly points out. An argument is if the KFF portion regarding vehicle obscurity was removed, than by RAW everything gets a 5+ cover save but the Rulebook states that a piece of wargear can only grant cover to vehicles if they are classified as Obscured. So the second line of the KFF is necessary, look at smoke launchers, it states specifically that a vehicle is both obscured and receives a 4+ cover save. It is pretty clear that the only time a vehicle can claim cover is if he is obscured. Cover does not generate obscurity automatically, it needs legitimate obscurity or a wargear that states obscurity.

Part 1 of my post was directed at you, part two at some of the earlier posts. Obviously there are things vehicles can get cover saves from, including wargear. However, as Nabterayl mentioned (using formal logic), the BRB does not say that wargear can only grant a cover save by obscuring the vehicle. It says that if a piece of wargear mentions obscuring the vehicle, this means it gets a 4+ cover save. This doesn't prevent wargear from granting a cover save under other circumstances.

StrikerFox
09-25-2009, 10:42 PM
Now, I had a very bloody game tonight against Orks and I raised an argument which I find entertained but never truly clarified. Everyone knows my stance on the KFF and my deep hatred of it. Well tonight, I argued that a 3 Killa Kan unit cannot receive "Obscured" Status from the KFF if only 1 of them is within the KFF.

My argument was that since the Walkers are a Squadron and hence are under the Vehicle Squadron Rules, they need to be at least 50% Obscured to received total of their squadrons to be be obscured, to me at the time the Vehicle Squadron rule does not Contradict in any which form the rule from the Codex which I have right here:



Now notice that the sentence in which refers to units: "A kustom force field gives all units within 6" of the Mek a cover save of 5+."

By that logic, the squadron is guaranteed a 5+ Cover save if 1 of the walker is within 6" because the sentence fails to specify if this only affects infantry or non-vehicle.

In regards to vehicles it says: "Vehicles within 6" are treated as being obscured targets."

To my understanding this means that for the Walker Squadron to receive "Obscure" status, it needs 2 of the 3 Killa Kans to be within 6" of the KFF. As this sentence does not refer anywhere to Vehicle Squadron.

So in conclusion, is that Vehicle Squadron who are covered by less than 50% of their number but within 6 inches have a 5+ cover save, but if they are 50% or more withing 6" of the KFF than they receive the "obscure" save.

Notice how no where in the rule of the KFF does it break the Vehicle Squadron Rules from the Rulebook and hence both rules exist to complement each other thus the Codex does not override the rulebook because there is nothing to override.

Okay, i play orks, and this is the way we rule it. (doesnt matter about 50% or more, any part of that unit being touched is counted as being in the KFF range)
Any unit being withing 6" of the KFF will be granted a 5+ coversave.
any vehicle within 6" is obscured (which as a 4+ cover save).
Any squadron of vehicles (killakans etc) must have 50% or more of the squadron within the 6" to get the KFF per squadron rules. (again, if they are touched by 6" they get it)

so for 3 killa kans, 2 of them have to be touched by the 6" bubble to get obscured. doesnt matter if they are "wholly" within the 6" or not, just as long as 2 are touched..

thats just how we do it...

MaidenManiac
09-27-2009, 05:54 PM
... any vehicle within 6" is obscured (which as a 4+ cover save).
Any squadron of vehicles (killakans etc) must have 50% or more of the squadron within the 6" to get the KFF per squadron rules. (again, if they are touched by 6" they get it)

so for 3 killa kans, 2 of them have to be touched by the 6" bubble to get obscured. doesnt matter if they are "wholly" within the 6" or not, just as long as 2 are touched...

The reasonable and most likely intended way;)

sorienor
09-27-2009, 08:12 PM
I have come to accept that only the kans within the KFF are obscured, so only if 2 of the 3 can the squadron get the 4+ obscured save.

However if only 1 model is in the KFF, they would still get the 5+ cover save for being a unit, completely independent of the squadron rules because the KFF gives the unit a de facto cover save and that over-rides any rules in the BRB for vehicle squadron requirements.

Nabterayl
09-27-2009, 08:36 PM
I have come to accept that only the kans within the KFF are obscured, so only if 2 of the 3 can the squadron get the 4+ obscured save.

However if only 1 model is in the KFF, they would still get the 5+ cover save for being a unit, completely independent of the squadron rules because the KFF gives the unit a de facto cover save and that over-rides any rules in the BRB for vehicle squadron requirements.

The most sensible (and rules-literal) way to do it.

DarkLink
09-28-2009, 09:23 AM
I think that's correct.
If a unit is within 6", it gets a 5+ cover save. Vehicles are units, and vehicle squadrons are units, so they get a 5+ cover save.
If a vehicle is within 6", it gets a 4+ cover save, replacing the 5+ cover save.

So a vehicle squadron will always get at least a 5+ save if any are within 6", and the vehicles within 6" get a 4+.