6th Edition - Not Sure How Much I Care

[ElectricPaladin]

I've been thinking about it and realized that Warhammer 40k is going to have to do a lot to regain my trust. 6th Edition will be in my hands very soon, and I'm not sure how much I care.

A little background on me: I'm a relatively new wargamer. I started playing at the end of the last school year. 40k was my first game because it's so popular - I have a messy schedule and not a lot of time to play, so I liked the idea of starting off with a game I could play on almost any given evening - and from there, I've branched out into Warhammer Fantasy, Warmahordes, and, most lately, Infinity. I really enjoyed 40k, at first, but with every new game it has slid further and further down the totem pole, until now I can honestly say that it's my least favorite.

The first - and biggest - issue with 40k is the lack of balance and moribund tactical environment. My main army is Tau, and my secondary force is Blood Angels. I am sick unto death of losing to my friend's Imperial Guard wall-of-tanks. I am sick unto death of there being one and a half viable Tau builds. I've never faced Grey Knights or Space Wolves, and I can only imagine how that would go.

Contrast this with, say, Infinity, with its exquisitely balanced environment and huge variety of tactics. Contrast it with Warmahordes, where every Warnoun plays differently and very few of them are "bad."

I'm also frustrated with the price of 40k. It's not just that individual kits and boxes are expensive and rising in price - which they are - it's that the game is structured around buying tons and tons of stuff. To change the direction of a 40k army, you probably need to buy at least a boxed set, possibly a really expensive boxed set, and maybe even several boxes. In Privateer Press's games, you can totally transform how your army plays by buying a different Warnoun and - potentially - a new warjack/warbeast or box of soldiers. In Infinity, you can change the way your army plays with a $10 blister.

It's a bad combination. The extremely plodding, extremely static tactical world of 40k, combined with the relatively high price of changing directions, means that if you aren't lucky enough to start with something "competitive," you might never get there. If I trip upon an unfortunate synergy in Warmahordes, well, that's maybe $30 down the drain. If I manage to do that in Infinity, well... I'd probably be the first person ever. I started with Tau in 40k, and I'm still frustrated.

So, there's been a lot of talk about what 6th Edition is going to change. New close combat rules, overwatch is back, more complex and universalized psychic rules... what I want to know is, is 6th Edition going to make the game vital again? Are my Tau going to stand a chance in 6th Edition? What are they going to do to make tactics determine who wins a game, rather than build or faction? What is 6th going to do that will fix, not just change, 5th? As it stands now, I'm not sure how excited I am about 6th edition.

I'm not sure I know the answer to that question - but maybe you do. As I wrote above, I'm relatively new to this hobby, and while a lot has been said about what 6th may bring, I can't always put it together on my own. If you want to share - or have any other opinions - I'm eager to read them.

[Mr Mystery]

I'd give it a whirl.

And to be fair, main reasons I play 40k are the background, and the awesome local community. The points you raised are valid, and certainly still being in school, money is likely more of an issue for you than I. (got to love disposable income!)

But seriously, give it a whirl. I know it's anecdotal, but look to 8th Edition Fantasy. Cut through the whineosphere online, and notice what the actual player base are saying. The new core rules balanced the game, and the recent army books are all on a par in terms of quality etc.

Finally....there's no shame in not finding a game entertaining any more. You've just started out, and it could well be that skirmish games are more your cup of tea.

[Defenestratus]

Ok, Bye!


Its clear that you don't want convincing that you've made the wrong decision, so why waste keystrokes trying.

[Denzark]

Ha, where to start...

You took a tough choice with Tau. And Blood Angels are totally different. Actually, you are probably more than aware of this.

If this has got you into other games, and they give you what you want and 40K don't, you know what to do. Is 6th going to change it all and make the Tau uber? Are you annoyed because your friend's IG gunline outshoots your Tau and you want this to change? You might come top of the shooty tree, to find out that a Psyker Battle Squad with the alleged new card system, is harder than a reaver - what the tau gonna do for Psy defence?

I disagree with your assessment of the tactics or lack thereof in 40K - I have played in every edition and with Apoc/Planetstrike/Spear Head/The battle missions book/The new Deathworld blurb there is something to keep it fresh. Yes you can't go far wrong targetting troops choices but Warmahordes = kill the spellcaster.

As to price, its people like you falling on the side of leaving gets me cheap armies...

I could be flippant, and say I'm not sure I care how much you care, because I'm sure 6th will be amusing. The first 2 years of any new edition make me laugh as I inadvertantly try and use rules from older editions I have played.

But in reality, be patient, try playing 6th with someone elses copy so you save the money. If you think its pants, leave, sell your stuff cheap on Ebay, go to infiwarmalifaux or whatever. Just don't come back to tell us cause I am sure how much I care about them!;)

[Wildeybeast]

I'd give it a whirl.

And to be fair, main reasons I play 40k are the background, and the awesome local community. The points you raised are valid, and certainly still being in school, money is likely more of an issue for you than I. (got to love disposable income!)

But seriously, give it a whirl. I know it's anecdotal, but look to 8th Edition Fantasy. Cut through the whineosphere online, and notice what the actual player base are saying. The new core rules balanced the game, and the recent army books are all on a par in terms of quality etc.

Finally....there's no shame in not finding a game entertaining any more. You've just started out, and it could well be that skirmish games are more your cup of tea.

Exactly what I was going to say. Hopefully the codex creep which became so annoying in 40k will be replaced by a much more balanced system like Warhammer has done. As someone who plays Warhammer, I'm surprised electricpaladin hasn't already thought of this. And given we have no definite idea what rules changes will happen, I would sugggest waiting to see what the rules do change before giving up on 40k.

[Levitas]

GW is a model making company that tacked a gaming system on the end as collectors wanted something to do with their toy soldiers. 6 editions later that hasn't really changed.

After you realize that just enjoy the models, background and the community. Yes its expensive, but the quality of models is good. I totally agree though, new lists can often mean a wallet busting change. But See above!

It will never be cost efficient, it will never be balanced, and it will always have marines. But it will always be pretty.

[Aventine]

What are they going to do to make tactics determine who wins a game, rather than build or faction? What is 6th going to do that will fix, not just change, 5th?

I think if you gave the game enough of a chance to become more experienced you might realize that build/faction trumping tactics is an internet fiction. Becoming stuck in that mentality makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy (if you think your tactics don't matter then you will never develop them enough to make them matter).

[antennafarm]

a weird position, to feel the obligation of exposition. "i don't think i care!" "nobody asked?"

[Black Hydra]

What the heck happened to just posting for conversation? I mean there's nothing wrong with saying what's on your mind and asking what others think overall. What is everyone expecting to hear? More rumors to quarrel over and half arsed posts to enjoy condescending?

To OP, I also just started out recently and agree it sucks to meet that wall of bullets. My friend plays a hybrid blob/mech IG army. I used to think my Necrons could match his IG's quantity of firepower with their quality of firepower. Turns out, like a noob, I learned that's not the case. While running isn't my style, I figured out hanging back and letting himself get worn out works best.

Allow me to explain. IG have a very strong starting turn. With all the firepower they bring, even with crappy BS and full scatter, they are bound to hit something. But quantity doesn't hold out forever. Selectively take out some of their vehicles or infantry and they lose steam. Take out their command squad and they've lost a third of their army basically.

I don't know how you play your Tau against that IG army, but taking shots from far away using disposable units really is their bane. Keep your main forces in reserve or cover while pummeling their forward units with throw away vehicles is key. A great unit for this is the Piranha. Fast moving melta guns is what it's all about. In objective games move them towards Chimeras with vets flat out. Chances are if the IG player took ordnance, they didn't take hydras and vice versa. The points investment is too much. In kill points games Piranhas are a great first strike unit. Your main tanks should be taking shots at the Lemans and blobs that come out of the destroyed Chimeras.

Also, IG love the Master of the Fleet to screw up opponents reserve rolls. I'm pretty sure the Tau have something that allows to re roll failed reserve rolls. And the suits can re roll their scatter dice.

My 2 friends, the IG guy and Tau guy, usually end up tying their games. They're so evenly matched.

Don't give up on 40k because of a few bad experiences against the common lists. Tau are still great. They are a mobile shooting power to be reckoned with. Use them as such.

[pauljc]

OP, I can certainly appreciate your point of view, but allow me to offer some alternative perspective.

The price of things is never gonna make us happy. All hobbies are designed to make you buy more. I mean, sure, you *could* just stick with a Warmahordes battle group box, and not buy anything else, but chances are you won't. You like the minis, and they want you to buy more. In our commercial society, everything is based on getting you to buy more.

Personally, for the quality I'm getting, I find that GW minis are reasonably priced. Most of the time. Sometimes I think GW gets a little crazy, but such is their right. They are a company trying to make money. Also, people often forget that GW minis are not manufactured in a 'third world' country, where sweatshop labour can be bought for a few cents. People in the UK like to be paid a decent wage (though, having worked at GW in the past, I wouldn't call it decent ;) ). Cost discussions could take up entire forums, so I'm gonna skip that.

You are totally free to exercise your consumer rights to simply not buy stuff from GW. I don't mean that to sound provocative, but that's really all it comes down to at the end of the day. You make a conscious choice to pay top dollar/pound/euro for a high quality product. Or not. Or, like myself, you simply alter your spending habits to account for rising prices.
As much as it may seem like it to some, GW is not an evil corporate entity that exists in a vacuum and does whatever it feels like. A lot of research and evaluation goes into their policies and pricing.

With regards to 5th edition's lack of tactics, I agree somewhat. Having been into this hobby for about 25 years now, it's just the nature of the beast. 5th edition was designed to be much faster playing, more visceral, but, at the end of the day, it basically comes down to how many buckets of dice you can throw.
For older gamers like myself, I'd dare say that such a system - while fun - does eventually become a little dull or simplistic. Which is one of the reasons I am looking forward to 6th. If the rumours are true, it appears that there will be much more 'choice' with how I play the game. More tactical flexibility, and less having to take that 50pt Pask upgrade to my Punisher, just so that I can beat my crappy luck with rolling 4+. Less feeling like I have to take certain army choices just to have a chance of beating my buddy's new Necrons.

Also, this Codex-creep stuff people go on about isn't anything new. While it is a business decision to re-new a product, there's a certain amount of creative effort also. Game designers come up with new ideas for an army. The fluff changes. Someone sees something in another game and thinks, 'ooh, that would look cool if we altered it for the IG'.
This all eventually becomes a new book, with new rules, alterations, etc etc. I mean, why would you want to create something, and then simply leave it unchanged forever? Take any product; cars, food, computers. Same deal.

Codex-creep is real, to a certain extent. Newer Codices do have advantages of hindsight over older ones. The designers have gone back over older rules, re-written some, built new ones, and added new stuff purely because it's cool. Partly to get you to spend more money, and partly because it's just creative.

Thankfully, GW doesn't invalidate our model collections when they release new army books and rules. Sure, some things might change or disappear, but that's what 'counts as' is for. :)

Additionally, I don't understand your complaint about having to buy new stuff to alter an existing army and send it in a new direction. To say that Warmachine doesn't require this is incorrect. How is having 10 different units/models different in Warmachine than it is in 40K? If I have 3 different HQ choices and 4 different Troop choices sitting in my box, I can formulate many different army list combinations. Likewise, I can do the same thing in WM with 3 different Warcasters and 4 different 'jacks. But sooner or later, I'm going to decide that I need that extra Assault squad or Merc solo, and go out and buy it.
It may seem like Warmahordes has more list-building flexibility, but I disagree. What I do personally like about WM is the potential to build truly whacky combinations that still function on the battlefield. 40K has that too, but to a lesser extent. But that's the nature of Warmahordes. It has a lot more individual models and units, and I think it was built with this kind of flexibility in mind. And that's cool. They are two different games.

I too love Infinity, precisely because it is so completely different to 40K. It plays different. 40K is about skirmish-level warfare. Infinity is about small-unit actions and spec-ops. On that scale, you can really go in-depth on the individual actions of your little dudes. You can't compare them really. If you added the same level of individuality rules to a 2000pt 40K army, you'd never finish playing.

All in all, if you're finding 5th edition to be a little dull and devoid of tactics, then maybe you should care about 6th, because by all accounts it seems like it will be adding in a lot more choice to the game. It could end up like WHFB, or a combination of 40K, Infinity and WM. I'm hoping for a happy, fun medium. :)

[eldargal]

Very few of your points actually have anything to do with 5th/6th:

First, balance. Tau are a very, very old book. Codex creep is a bit of a mtyh (or highly overstated) but edition creep is quite real. 6th won't change that, but nor is the 40k ruleset to blame. Its relevence to 6th coming out is questionable. It won't fix any problems with codices, that isn't its purpose. If you look at 8th you will see the same old broken 7th edition books dominating but the 8th ed books are all extremely well balanced against each other. You should also remember the whole point of 40k is to have fun, fluffy games with freinds, not to achieve some mythical perfect balance.

Second, tactics. If you think tactics don't matter you either don't know what tactics are or you are playing the game wrong.

Third, price, again, has nothing to do with edition. Whether or not you are willing to pay it is up to you.

Will 6th fix your problems? Who knows. They aren't really problems with 5th edition, they are matters of personal taste. I for one still find 40k to be a fun, fast paced tactical game, as do many others. You may simply prefer to style of Infinty or Warmachine (I like Infinity, I rally don't like Warmachine). It may simply be that you don't really like 40k. Nothing wrong with that, but it certainly isn't the fault of the ruleset.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

Hate the playa, don't hate the game! Wait, what? Basically, yeah, it's expensive. But you already have models, so I'm guessing you aren't in poverty.

Buy stuff on eBay, trade, and I'm sure there's certain "services" you could "perform" if you really wanted more plastic crack. Like washing cars. lol.

[the jeske]

well first of all most players quit after a year or so , so your not alone OP .

as the armies go. Dont pick bad old armies or armies with hard game play , specialy when your closest game group plays with good armies .

as the no tactics goes . well what will make the 5th ed was know about 1 day after the rule book was leaked . everyone knew that las/plas is dead. mecha is king . melta is new weapon of choice and MSU is very cost efficient [to play , not to buy] . The new dex didnt change much about it . You take a look at the big 3 and it is realy not that hard to notice the good options [and in the case of SW/GK almost lack of realy bad ones]. So yeah the game is simple , the "tactics" are offten mirror copies of each other with the only difference being who has the better rules . not bad per se , but only if all dex are made by the same designer or at least with the same efficiency in mind . + it once again proves that one should not pick an army by looks , but by game play of an army [specialy with counts as being fully supported] . you sound like one of those dudes that picked up BAs because of the "awesome" factor and then found out that they are a hard army to play with [when to play the same game the big 3 plays and not an up hill struggle against your own rules]. tactis in games were rarely a GW thing anyway . you dont win because of "tactics" , you win because your rules are better . If my army has double the fire power and ignores stunlock and yours doesnt and we both play gunlines then unless I roll a lot of 1s , you just lost hard. IF w40k had hidden objectives for both players[possibly different for each player] then there would be tactics . Right now it is a question of "can you out assault/out shot my unit on objectice?" or "am I playing draigo or not in a kill points game" .



as what will the 6th change . It will change nothing . armies with more options[GK/SW for example] will attune themself to the new edition better . LF suck? here come the land speeders . mecha is dead , covers/FnP/inv go down ? welcome my footslogging GK army with even more psycannons . On the other hand armies with few or no options to change their key army pices are left in the cold . If something makes broades and suits suck then one may as well not play tau till the new dex comes.
But sm will get a new dex soon and it will be made with the new edition in mind , so unless they dont go overboard with simplifing sm , they will give a nice base codex for the 6th ed. Ah and after 3-4 dex it is going to be the same as it is now . It was always like that , sometimes it was faster [rhino rush being king in 3 , las/plas +rending gunlines for sm] and sometimes it was there from the very start [ SW get their 2ed dex and they have better ws better gear and 20 cyclons+20
AC on their termis with better gear for their dudes].

[Panxer]

Meh. I'm a hardcore Tau guy too, and I can't even fake enjoyment anymore. 6th ed? I've got a guy who'll get the rule book, I'll read through it, maybe play a few games, if I like it- I'll play it for a while, if I don't, I've got an IG army and a Tau army for sale.

But I do think the gentleman was correct about GW being a model manufacturing company (who added a gaming system on the back end). Actions being louder than words, its patently and empirically clear that as a collective, GW doesn't really CARE what it's consumer base thinks or is able to buy. Want to send a message to GW? Don't buy their stuff. Play a different gaming system. Sell your models (or in my sick mind, melt them down and send them back with a note pinned stating 'thanks for the ride')...but I digress.

All and all? 6th ed?! I'm curious...cautiously so. with a 70.00 landraider I can't help but be. Infinity is looking better and better by the moment.

[eldargal]

Panxer, why not wait for the new Tau book next year rather than having a hissy fit and quitting over the 6th rulebook? Tau need a new book, a new edition isn't going to fix that pinning your hopes on it is just ridiculous.

[Mr Mystery]

I guess some people just don't like change.

But my advice remains the same. Give it a whirl. Now you're exact definition of a whirl is down to you, but I'm counting as a good few months of regular gaming. This way, I can get used to not only how it affects my army, but everyone else.

But resist the rage quit. Hell, I worked for GW when 8th Edition Fantasy was released, and all staff were given their choice of Batallion. I plumped for Ogres, as I kind of liked the models and they were very different to the other armies. Now, in 7th, they were a really hard army to play. In 8th Edition? Even before their new book, they became a force to be reckoned with!

Chill, and enjoy as best you can!

[the jeske]

Panxer, why not wait for the new Tau book next year rather than having a hissy fit and quitting over the 6th rulebook? Tau need a new book, a new edition isn't going to fix that pinning your hopes on it is just ridiculous.

the tau dex may as well be coming in 2014 and then its a waste of almost 2 years time waiting for it ?

[Mr Mystery]

Seems you've already made up your mind chap.

If you enjoy the army as much as you say, where does regularly winning come into the equation? I have a Savage Orc army for Fantasy that is purely for fun and games!

[Panxer]

I don't believe its pessimism. I believe it's being a Tau player. Do you own or play a Tau army? You don't? Then what do you know of it? I don't claim to be an expert on any other army nor do I give out advice to people about armies I don't play or own. Space dogs? Chaos? Dark Space Elves? Nope. I don't play them, so I don't speak from a seat of authority about them. I know a couple things I've read from forums and tactics boards, but other than that I'm pretty ignorant regarding their army list builds and special tactics used. So...myeh!

I'll take change. I'll take anything if it means a viable army to play and not be tabled by turn 3. Go on! I dare you! Borrow your friend's Tau army. Take it down from the dusty shelve and play it for 6 months and tell me that a new game edition will make up for no codex for 2 editions. But it'll come out in 2014! Really? Thanks.... A lot...

[Mr Mystery]

Thank you for your assumption.

Whilst I do not currently own a Tau army, I have owned one during 5th Edition. I had to sell it when I lost a job to keep my head above water. And I do miss that army, it was fun! Even though I usually got my teeth kicked out. What I didn't do was attempt to martyr myself to the army.

When a new job came along, and things steadied out, I went back to my various Fantasy armies, as 8th Edition was pending. Now I'm getting back into 40k, I plumped for Necrons because I like the models, and the new stuff is awesome.

But yes. Thank you for your assumption all the same. I'll put it with my collection.

[Panxer]

Presumption of fact runs the galaxy my friend. Just look at the American (in)justice system. Regardless. I'm sorry you've fallen on hard times. I'm not sure what that has to do with 40k, but I'm glad you at least owned and played the army. I'm also glad you have hope! The world needs more of it. I ran out years ago and stocks are on back order since I requisitioned.

40 makes you happy? Keep playing it! Necrons?! Superbly awesome army. I lose to them on a weekly basis. I recommend them. They are efficient and lethal (now that they have a new book).

Does this thing accept pay pal? I have to pay for our opinions, and I don't know if my mastercard will be accepted on this site being that it's only a .04 cent charge for the two, and I think the surcharge for the transaction will be more than the cost of our venerable and indispensable opinions on an internet thread.

[Deadlift]

For me the hobby is so much more than playing the game. As GW say their a model company 1st and foremost and a new edition for me is more about the exciting new modelling and painting aspect, so I love the conversions, the fluff, the painting and the chit chat that accompanys all of the aspects of our hobby. It's a personal thing and if the OP has taken a turn in a new hobby direction and enjoying something different to what GW has to offer, well good luck to him. It's your spare time matey and you should enjoy it as you want to.

Having dabbled in warmahordes, as much as I like the models, I do find them personally lacking in character and conversion possibilities compared to GWs products. PP produce some nice kits but for me they are not upto GWs standard.....yet.

As for Tau getting the shaft, don't worry you can always allie with some SMurfs and get them to hold your little blue hands in battle.

Seriously though I don't EVER play in a competative environment, just friends drinking a few brews and throwing some dice. The dedicated Tau player still seems to have fun.

And you never know the rumours of a tau flyer around the corner could be true and with a new rule set as well, the cause for "the greater good" could be fun for some of you guys once again.

[Panxer]

Thanks Deadlift.:)

It was getting a little 'heavy' in here. Glad you around to 'lift' things back up...:o No?

:D

Danke.

[Deadlift]

Thanks Deadlift.:)

It was getting a little 'heavy' in here. Glad you around to 'lift' things back up...:o No?

:D

Danke.

No problem.
We're all passionate about our hobby, it's why we're here ;)

[eldargal]

How is next year 2014?:rolleyes: Tau codex is due early 2013.

[ksoh75]

How is next year 2014?:rolleyes: Tau codex is due early 2013.

I think he was just making a simple opinion that they keep saying Tau were coming and coming and now it's early 2013. But who says they back them up more? It happens. I've since it happen since '05 when I started playing.

No big deal. I just chose to go to a different game. I love GW models, just not all the BS that comes with it. It repeats itself over and over and over like watching Groundhog Day with Bill Murry. Release a new edition and the process wash, rinses and repeats. But you get that with any gaming system.

For me, I'm taking my money and if I'm investing into anything sexy, is Dropzone Commander and Dust. I spent a whopping $200 and I have a complete Army with all models represented in the line for the faction I'm playing.

DzC.....just the detailed quality of the line and the fact that it's SPACESHIPS dropping in tanks to destroy things that get me all jizzed up in excitment.

One of my buds says I'll be back to 40k. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. But unless the new box set comes with a mini rulebook, I'm not dumping $90 for a game rulebook and psycher cards just to play a game. $90 will buy me 4-6 boosters of soon to be spaceship/walker/tank sexiness......

RIP Tau.......My Detroit Lions right now have a better shot at seing a superbowel than you guys with a codex:p


OH and again......this is just my opinion.....not trying to start an argument or people getting on pedistils going ape**** over a simple "how you feel about the hobby" comment.

People need to take a little critisism and grow a pair. We all have a right to our mind.

[Wolfshade]

RIP Tau.......My Detroit Lions right now have a better shot at seing a superbowel than you guys with a codex:p
What is a super bowel? and if it is what it sounds like, I am not sure I would want to see it.

If people hear rumours about things (or pass off wishlisting as rumours) and they don't pan out it isn't the fault of games publisher, similarly if you hear rumours about a good player being signed for "Detroit Lions" and it didn't actually happen that isn't the Detroit Lions' fault it is the person with the bad information. At the end of the day (urgh I hate that phrase) the only people who know exactly what the GW schedule is, is GW and until it is WD or has been annouced officially by them then you can't say if it is going to happen or not.

[ksoh75]

What is a super bowel? and if it is what it sounds like, I am not sure I would want to see it.

If people hear rumours about things (or pass off wishlisting as rumours) and they don't pan out it isn't the fault of games publisher, similarly if you hear rumours about a good player being signed for "Detroit Lions" and it didn't actually happen that isn't the Detroit Lions' fault it is the person with the bad information. At the end of the day (urgh I hate that phrase) the only people who know exactly what the GW schedule is, is GW and until it is WD or has been annouced officially by them then you can't say if it is going to happen or not.



Super Bowl....HA!!! LOL

And Calvin Johnson made the dreded Madden cover this year....might as well sign his death warrent...LOL

[the jeske]

How is next year 2014?:rolleyes: Tau codex is due early 2013.
dream on . the work on the model line hasnt even started yet and it take 6+ months to do . longer for xeno armies because unlike marines they dont have half or more units that stay more or less the same .
to get a tau dex in end of 2013 they would have to start today . +2013 is more WFB year.


ah and that flyer people are talking about is not GW . it is a FW ray variant and being FW , for a lot of people , it may as well not exist at all.

[Deadlift]

dream on . the work on the model line hasnt even started yet and it take 6+ months to do . longer for xeno armies because unlike marines they dont have half or more units that stay more or less the same .
to get a tau dex in end of 2013 they would have to start today . +2013 is more WFB year.


ah and that flyer people are talking about is not GW . it is a FW ray variant and being FW , for a lot of people , it may as well not exist at all.

Going on past rumours, I think I will go EG on this one.

[Panxer]

Yeah, buddy of mine who used to work for GW here on the east coast assures me that typically GW has things done WAY in advance and just like any other company, has release dates (which are subject to change) which has the side effect of keeping army/product loyalists chomping at the bit forever (until we abandon hope and move on to greener pastures). Then, by then it's too late.

Key point in economics* Demand to Supply ratio: Butt tons of people screaming for a Tau codex (which can probably be heard on the moon) + arbitrary zero fulfillment of market demand by production company = 0 profit from market. I'm sure Keynes is twirling in his grave about now.

This is why I've shelved my Tau and will be concentrating on my guard forces; or even a whole new gaming system.

[Wolfshade]

But as GW figures themselves show, the majority of players want Space Marine stuff hence the larger range, more frequent updates.

[GrogDaTyrant]

But as GW figures themselves show, the majority of players want Space Marine stuff hence the larger range, more frequent updates.

Those figures also don't show how many non-marine players stop playing 40k out of frustration (very common occurrence in my region), and they certainly didn't account for all models that were purchased by Ork players for looting. Think about this for a second, prior to the plastic gretchin release, how well do you think GW's figures accounted for the multitude of Ork armies world-wide that fielded grots? Even in the days of 3rd, 4th, and 5th ed? They have always been a must-have unit, with exception to the last 6-months of 4th when they were literally useless. Players (myself included) regularly built and fielded 30-strong units of the blighters... But few actually used more than a blister or 3 of the metal grots. The most common piece of advice given out to burgeoning Ork players was to get gretchin by buying Goblin, Night Goblin, or Gnoblar boxes and convert them up with spare pistols. You see a similar situation currently with Ork players and Rokkit-Buggies/Trakks. Despite there being a (hideous) model, a lot of players just scratch-build or convert one out of wartrukk kits.

Now granted, that is just one army that has a long (very long) history of not being accurately tracked via GW's sales figures. However it should be noted that on 2 separate occasions an army has gone from bottom rung sales to soaring above that of everything else for months on end, all because it actually got a release (no matter how bad). Most notable were the Dark Eldar and before that the Orks. Neither army generated remotely decent sales prior to their revisits, and both armies went an apalling 10± years without any shred of attention what-so-ever. Then once they got a revisit, stores couldn't keep them on the shelves for well over a year. They are also still doing fairly well despite 1 being used as the intro-game punching-bag, and the other having a challenging glass-cannon play-style.

When no support is given to an army, and it's models look outdated and/or bad, then it tends to not sell well. Tau and Sisters being fine examples of this. A significant reason as to why marines sell so well (but not all of the reason), is self-perpetuated through always having new codices, being in every starter-set, and being hyped continuously by store staff.

[Denzark]

Now granted, that is just one army that has a long (very long) history of not being accurately tracked via GW's sales figures. However it should be noted that on 2 separate occasions an army has gone from bottom rung sales to soaring above that of everything else for months on end, all because it actually got a release (no matter how bad). Most notable were the Dark Eldar and before that the Orks. Neither army generated remotely decent sales prior to their revisits, and both armies went an apalling 10± years without any shred of attention what-so-ever. Then once they got a revisit, stores couldn't keep them on the shelves for well over a year. They are also still doing fairly well despite 1 being used as the intro-game punching-bag, and the other having a challenging glass-cannon play-style.

.

Source please - I mean GW HQ figures, not some Indy FLGS you may be privy to the bottom line of.

[GrogDaTyrant]

I disagree with your assessment of the tactics or lack thereof in 40K - I have played in every edition...

[Citation needed]. I would like a full spreadsheet outlining the potential tactical and strategic applications of each individual army and unit in direct comparison to every other game system on the market. Especially historical. And I don't want your personal opinions on the matter, either. Just quantifiable proof.

Asinine requests aside, I have 4 local GWs in my region that during the time of the Ork codex, could not get any of the sets in and were only receiving at best a single boy box or two to replenish their missing stock. And believe me, I was visiting every one in my area at the time. And each had sold the large box-sets containing every new model release by within a few days of it hitting the shelf.

This is what is called a 'shortage', often caused by excessive market demand. In contrast, every one of those GWs had little issue keeping new BA or SW releases on the shelf.

Also of note, is that the Dark Eldar and Orks both received a 3rd wave release (unless I'm mistaken on Dark Eldar part). Why would they bother with a 3rd wave consisting of kanz, dreads, and 3 extremely minor characters? It's not like kanz and dreads, let alone Ork ones, are popular choices... (sarcasm). How many other armies have received a 3rd wave? Oh I know one... IG, with it's Manticore/Deathstrike and final variant kit for the Russ.

[Mr Mystery]

Actually it's to do with channeling sales to their own online provider.

Seriously. GW Stock Levels are set centrally. You get your release allocation, which is pretty big (duh!) and after that? Stock is usually a coupe of boxes of everything. Stops dead stock to boot.

Want something that isn't presently on the shelves/out the back? Why, here's our friend Mr Terminal. Stick your order on that (and the good sales staff always get the odd add on. Lord knows I did!) pay at the till. Boof. Same result as having had it in stock, for a fraction of the cost to the company. Have it sent to your house, or the store. Eitherway it's most likely free.

And the other affect is to create a sense of demand. Hell, my local store keeps selling out of Necrons, and had the same thing happen with Grey Knights. Soon as the delivery arrived on a Thursday, people would be in, asking for stuff to be dug out and price up first. Half the time it doesn't get as far as the shelf! If your stock is 2, and demand is presently 4, then demand might as well look like 50 to the untrained eye.

ANY army that has a release is naturally going to see an upswing in sales. If it doesn't something has gone horribly, horribly wrong somewhere.

[Denzark]

[Citation needed]. I would like a full spreadsheet outlining the potential tactical and strategic applications of each individual army and unit in direct comparison to every other game system on the market. Especially historical. And I don't want your personal opinions on the matter, either. Just quantifiable proof.

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Well allow me to retort. My comment you quoted is purely opinion so needs no justification. Of interest backed up by some other quite veteran gamers on here. The potential tactical applications of every army is hugely varied (I can say this because you didn't specify SUCCESSFUL applications). I can't see how you could do a direct comparison against other games systems as they use different rules. You couldn't do a strategic outline as 40K is a tactical battle - even an Apocalypse game really. If you don't know the military accepted (both US and UK) definitions of tactical-operational-strategic-grand strategic you can't debate this with me.

Admittedly my comment which spawned your banality needs clarity - how do you know GW sales figures do not accurately track Orks? Can you state for a fact that it is not the case that they are tracked hyper-accurately and it is merely a supply problem keeping it from the store shelves? If so feel free to do so.

BTW Seattle is not the centre of the known universe by the way. It might be one of the haemorrhoids but you basing a fact on 4 local GWs ain't like gospel.

[GrogDaTyrant]

Admittedly my comment which spawned your banality needs clarity - how do you know GW sales figures do not accurately track Orks? Can you state for a fact that it is not the case that they are tracked hyper-accurately and it is merely a supply problem keeping it from the store shelves? If so feel free to do so.

Fair enough, allow me to retort to your inquiry. Believe it or not I was actually employed through Games Workshop, under their current US til system (and prior Microbiz one). Their system keeps track of product sold for restock purposes, and divides the SCUs up via category (as in army and game system). A vehicle purchased for the purposes of making a looted vehicle, let alone goblins purchased for the express purpose of making gretchin, did not (nor would they) be categorized under Orks.

Orks have historically been one of the armies in the game that have had the least accuracy for sales tracking, simply due to looted vehicles. That has changed however, as Looted vehicles are not as popular now, and Gretchin are conveniently sold in plastic box-sets.


BTW Seattle is not the centre of the known universe by the way.

Odd, I don't remember saying it was. In fact, I don't see how or why you would bother to think that.


In any case Denzark, one jack-hole post deserves a second in response. I could honestly care less about how much actual tactics and/or strategy you think 40k has.

[Wolfshade]

Those figures also don't show how many non-marine players stop playing 40k out of frustration (very common occurrence in my region)
I would argue that GW don't care how many non-marine players stop playing 40k while it remains profitable.
Also sales figures do not show how many people are active on the periphery, when the new BA codex came out I brought 2 boxes of sanguinary guard, 3 storm ravens and all the new finecast minis, that was when they were released, I haven't added to that army but I do play it weekly.
As for your point about Grots, I have none in my ork army...

[GrogDaTyrant]

I would argue that GW don't care how many non-marine players stop playing 40k while it remains profitable.
Also sales figures do not show how many people are active on the periphery, when the new BA codex came out I brought 2 boxes of sanguinary guard, 3 storm ravens and all the new finecast minis, that was when they were released, I haven't added to that army but I do play it weekly.
As for your point about Grots, I have none in my ork army...

Generally speaking, I'm in agreement with you and therefore not arguing that GW doesn't care how many players quit so long as there's profit. Anyways there's a lot of things sales figures don't show, which is my initial point. They don't show players who are still playing but not buying new models. And they don't show people buying models purely to convert for something else entirely. They are far from infallible.

[Mr Mystery]

Generally speaking, I'm in agreement with you and therefore not arguing that GW doesn't care how many players quit so long as there's profit. Anyways there's a lot of things sales figures don't show, which is my initial point. They don't show players who are still playing but not buying new models. And they don't show people buying models purely to convert for something else entirely. They are far from infallible.

There is a world of difference between a player, and a customer.

And how do you know people are 'quitting'?? I've been knocking about the intertubes long enough to have seen people declare that they are quitting 4 or 5 times, yet always complain about how the latest army they just bought is underpowered.

Sales figues won't show stuff people aren't buying. And frankly, if you're not buying, why would any company give a monkey's about you? Hell, I work in Insurance these days. Doesn't really bother us if someone jumps ship. Good luck to them. As long as we remain attractive within the industry, they'll be replaced in short order. Indeed, overall the companies I do claims handling for year on year increase the number of policy holders.

Ditto with GW. I worked for them 2009/2010 (third time around) and I would always chuckle when someone rage quit, and declared their action as being the death knell of GW. And why would I chuckle? Because that day I'd have sold 2 full starter kits to new comers, and a buttload of models to established gamers. And it wasn't just one store. In that year, I worked in Tunbridge Wells, Brighton, Epsom (turned that store around in 4 weeks!) Blackpool, Stockport and Northampton. Sure. Weekdays were quiet, but then welcome to retail. Weekends? Let's just say I never missed my Core Games KPI in the entire 12 months.

New blood is coming in all the time. And if my experience is anything to go by, a healthy percentage are lapsed gamers coming back into the fold. It's surprisingly easy to tempt someone back onto the plastic crack. Black Library helps loads! Bloke comes in 'oh I used to do this years ago'. Quick gibber about what they liked (typically the background) and one £7.99 sale and two weeks later 'yeah, whiich one is the rulebook? Oh, and I'd best get some paints. And some glue. Can I book a time to play a full game'. Bing. Bang. Pow. It's that easy!