I can FINALLY get rid of the last Windows PC in my house...

[Chris Copeland]

...because Army Builder is FINALLY out for Mac! Yee-haw! I must say, I'm quite excited about this! I switched away from Windows YEARS ago. I've been running a lonely, lowly Windows PC for all of those years to run one program: Army Builder.

Today, I installed AB on my Mac and I can let the Windows machine go to it's long awaited grave! There has been talk of this coming for YEARS and now it's finally happened! Glory Hallejuha! Cope

PS Have I said how happy this makes me?!!!

[MajorWesJanson]

Grats!
Personally, I am waiting for the GW digital codices to be released on something cross-platform, so I don't have to buy a stupid iPad.

[Chris Copeland]

Personally, I am waiting for the GW digital codices to be released on something cross-platform, so I don't have to buy a stupid iPad.

Major, you might be waiting a while. I'm betting that GW is going to test the waters for a bit with Apple before they dive all the way into the pool... they seem to be a company that eases into things... Cope

[DrBored]

Congratulations, you will now have a house filled with Mac products, which are overpriced 'aesthite' versions of PC! Since their move to Intel, Mac has the exact same hardware as a PC. The only thing you're gaining is an obnoxious OS that Apple would have you believe is maintenance free. Oh, what's that? You can't play video games and you keep running out of virtual memory? That's probably because Mac comes stock with less RAM than an actual PC!

What's that? Mac OS is so much better? Immune to viruses you say? Think again! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12537279/ns/technology_and_science-security/t/macs-no-longer-immune-viruses-experts-say/#.T9VVr9VSTE0

You might have an auto-defragment, and you might have some shiny baubles and will enjoy paying for all that Apple-exclusive content that PC and Android users can typically find for free!

I do hope you enjoy paying twice as much for a shiny logo! :D /rant

Now I'm going to go enjoy using Army Builder and Hero Lab on my PC to build my next tournament Dark Eldar list, and then level up my Gunslinger/Witch in Pathfinder, like I've been able to do since those programs were released.

[antennafarm]

DrBored, are you 16?

[daboarder]

i dunno but he's pretty much right

[Chris Copeland]

Dear Doctor and Daboarder, I like computers that are easy to use all of the time. Apple filled that niche and found PLENTY of folks just like me. Sure, there are a LOT of tech heads out there who can build their own machines out of bits and then install Linux (or whatever) on them... bully for them. *I* am not one of those people. I am a regular Joe who wants a good computing experience every time. Mac has consistently delivered that to me over the years in a way that Microsoft never did. Yes, I pay more for that: but I've found the superior computing experience worth it. Cheers.

PS You can also buy a Zune for less than an iPod... but the experience won't be as good...

[Chris Copeland]

PPS: I don't play video games on my PC... I have a very nice console for that (made by Microsoft). Cheers.

[DarkLink]

Screw macs. I can literally buy like 6 windows laptops for the price of a single macbook. Even if PCs were the pieces of crap macs claim they are (they aren't), I'd just swap out laptops every couple of months and still save money. In reality, though, my last laptop lasted me almost four years.

And, of course, if you're more computer savvy, then go linux, but linux is terribly un-user friendly for anyone who doesn't have a degree in computer science.

Edit:
I don't like ipods, either. Itunes is extremely annoying, and again, there are plenty of mp3 players of just as good quality for much, much, much cheaper out there.

[Chris Copeland]

Screw macs. I can literally buy like 6 windows laptops for the price of a single macbook..

Please go do so. I shan't criticize you for it. We have a free marketplace... Apple caters to my wants and needs and Microsoft clearly meets yours... Cheers.

[Chris Copeland]

PS: I strongly encourage you to go buy whatever mp3 player you care to and squeeze whatever enjoyment out of it that you can... I highly doubt the interface will be as refined as the one Apple provides, but that is why we have free markets...

[Uncle Nutsy]

Macs are nice, they function well and it's a very pretty package. If I didn't play games and use a lot of windows-based applications (most are opensource, public domain, abandonware) that I've found because of different needs, I might end up using a mac. But then again, I'm smart with my money and don't like paying more than what something is worth.

Macs and PC's are just computers. I just happen to like building stuff and computers are very much included in that.

I prefer PC's because they're comfortable, I know the oddities and how to build them and how to fix them fast. Even when they go nuclear, I can be back up and running in about a half hour. Macs, when they go nuclear (ask me how I know) take HOURS to restore. and you never get your stuff back afterwards.

I can have a stable and solid windows PC built for about three hundred bucks. You can't even do that with a mac. And if anyone screwed up a PC they usually did something, got in over their heads and can't get back out (ask me how I know).


In case you're wondering: I hold three industry certifications, and have about fifteen years field experience to back it up.

[Chris Copeland]

In case you're wondering: I hold three industry certifications, and have about fifteen years field experience to back it up.

Right. That's the thing. I'm just an ordinary Joe who has no more desire to know how a computer works than a desire to know how a TV works... I want a clean, problem free experience every time. Windows never gave me that. Apple does. I pay more, sure. But the lack of hassle is worth it to me. :)

[Uncle Nutsy]

well if that windows machine was giving you some major-league fits, whoever you took it to or bought it from had no idea how to set it up.

[Chris Copeland]

well if that windows machine was giving you some major-league fits, whoever you took it to or bought it from had no idea how to set it up.

Right. Because (at least back then) Clones came 9 bazillion different ways from 9 bazillion different manufacturers... Macs come one way... and they work right out of the box and everything is integrated. I don't begrudge Windows users anything... I'm just glad I quit being one.

PS: I could play Mantic's science fiction war game cheaper than I play 40k... but I don't. I don't because I like the GW experience more... even if it is more expensive...
Cheers

[Uncle Nutsy]

blugh, don't remind me. it was a real mess when PC's were just getting into people's homes. even when win95 rolled around it didn't help much. 98 improved things a fair bit but it had it's problems. The real headway started happening around when NT started to meld with 98 in the form of win2000. Vista, let's not even GO there. Now with 7, things became nice and solid.

[Chris Copeland]

I was a Windows user from Windows 3.0 through Windows 95... by that point I'd had enough of clones, I jumped ship and never looked back. Like I said: I begrudge Windows users nothing. Apple gave me a clean and easy to use (non technical) computing experience and I thank them for that. I always laugh when some tech head points out how much cheaper their computer is than mine and how they built it themselves... here's the thing that Apple understands: lots of folks like me have no desire to either build or understand computers. We just want them to work every time we use them. We don't want to configure anything or download drivers. Like our toasters and TVs, we just want our computers to work... Macs do that. Cheers!

[Deadlift]

Right. That's the thing. I'm just an ordinary Joe who has no more desire to know how a computer works than a desire to know how a TV works... I want a clean, problem free experience every time. Windows never gave me that. Apple does. I pay more, sure. But the lack of hassle is worth it to me. :)

This is me ^

My father-in-law worked for the Canadian government and in his dept (education) they used nothing but macs, On my 1st visit to BC at their home I was allowed to have a fiddle on his imac, I was converted right away.

iPhones, iMac and now an iPod I am very happy with my choice. So easy to use. Oh and if I choose to play any windows only games I can. Bootcamp and a copy of windows and away I go.

Dont miss the blue screens and the virus's either.

[Psychosplodge]

Congratulations, you will now have a house filled with Mac products, which are overpriced 'aesthite' versions of PC! Since their move to Intel, Mac has the exact same hardware as a PC. The only thing you're gaining is an obnoxious OS that Apple would have you believe is maintenance free. Oh, what's that? You can't play video games and you keep running out of virtual memory? That's probably because Mac comes stock with less RAM than an actual PC!



I do hope you enjoy paying twice as much for a shiny logo! :D /rant

.

You missed out it's also not the latest intel kit, so literally is behind in technology.
Macs were worth using when the hardware was different and the were designed in house, and they excelled in some areas. Now they are just a marketing successfully an inferior product.

PC's are so simple you can build one with relatively little experience and be up and running in a matter of hours, and if anything goes wrong replacements are readily available, or you just re-install the OS.

[Wolfshade]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, where apple have the advantage is that since there systems are "sealed" they can ensure compatability a lot more easily, similiar to the way games consoles don't have issues, and they look pretty (my wife assures me that this is terribly important).
Where pcs have the advantage is that since there is much more open market you can (if you have the requiste skills) upgrade/tweak etc and have a much larger variety of software.
There are some things I dislike about both, I dislike apple's monopoly, there was a recent case in france whereby a 3rd party stockist essentially went bankrupt citing issues of Apple's stocking, I also dislike the price, but then I dislike the price of Aston Martins (so I am boycotting them untill I can afford one), they are going for a premium product just the way GW does with their minis
The "fanboi" both sides have these whereby they argue that their system is best and when you point out that their favourite feature just implemented had been done previously by the other system.
The issues I have with PCs are more to do with the Microsoft Operating systems rather than the PC per se, since you can coax a pc to run any OS (the hackingtosh was a good example)

It would however be a fallacy to say that the various apple OSs are free from maleware/virii etc.

[Psychosplodge]

opinions are for things that can't be measured.

And in most ways a mac simply cannot compete, and if you spend as much on a pc as mac costs you can build a very pretty pc...

[Col.Gravis]

Does discussion on the relative pros and cons of Macs vs PCs have any place on the 40k news forum?

I thought not.

OP good for you, and that AB is out on mac is news, there ends the value of the thread, please let it die. :rolleyes:

[Wolfshade]

Or moved to The Oubliette where all good threads should get derailled and die

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

My "wasting time" thread shall never die!

[Psychosplodge]

But no one would see him bragging about wasting his his money in the oubliette...

http://cheezpictureisunrelated.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/wtf-photos-videos-well-if-youre-a-mutant1.jpg

[Chris Copeland]

opinions are for things that can't be measured. And in most ways a mac simply cannot compete...

Here is where it CAN compete: user experience and interface. And I am willing to pay for that. User experience is one of those intangibles that Apples does perfectly in my humble opinion. Splodge, you sound like a reasonably technical person. Good. I admire that. I am not.



I don't want to know how computers work anymore than I want to know how microwaves work.
I don't want to configure anything.
I don't want to search for and install "drivers."
I don't want to worry about compatibility.
I want all of my programs to be designed from the word go to work together.
I want my computer to work seamlessly and easily with my iPod (I also have no desire to know how that works).
I want my computer to work seamlessly and easily with my iPad (I also have no desire to know how that works).
I just want a pleasant, hassle-free experience EVERY time I sit down at my computer.
Did I mention that I have no more desire to understand how ANYTHING works on a computer that I do on a television?

Apple's genius is that they've figured this out. They know that there are decidedly non-technical people in this world who still want a nice computing experience and are willing to pay more for that. Good for them.


Now back to Original Point of this thread: Wolf's Lair has been missing the boat on this for a LONG time. I came into this hobby midway through 4th edition. Wolf's Lair has been promising to release a Mac version of Army Builder since THEN. Year in and year our they've teased the wargaming Mac-using community with promises of a version of Army Builder for us. I also love Army Builder so I've kept a Windows 95 clone limping along all this time to run this ONE program. Yesterday I got (FINALLY... FINALLY... FINALLY) a Mac version of Army Builder. Yes, the Mac-using wargamers in this community will consider this news! This is big news to the segment of this community that is in the same boat I've been in.


So let the joyous news ring throughout the land: tabletop wargaming Mac-users, you can now run AB on your primary machines! You can finally let go of that one old clone that you've been nursing along for all this time. Wolf's Lair has finally come through for us!


Cheers! Copeland

PS I am NOT bragging about wasting my money. I am spreading the NEWS (in the News forum) to the Mac-using, tabletop wargaming segment of this community

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I'm happy for you Chris, this is a good day. *cries with joy and pats you on the back*

[Defenestratus]

PS: I strongly encourage you to go buy whatever mp3 player you care to and squeeze whatever enjoyment out of it that you can... I highly doubt the interface will be as refined as the one Apple provides, but that is why we have free markets...

Actually,

iTunes is one of the worst programs ever to grace a computer monitor, regardless of platform.

[Wolfshade]

Couldn't you just have run a virtual machine with WinX on it already?

[Defenestratus]

Now back to Original Point of this thread: Wolf's Lair has been missing the boat on this for a LONG time. I came into this hobby midway through 4th edition. Wolf's Lair has been promising to release a Mac version of Army Builder since THEN.

Colen has been working his fingers into little Scottish nubs on his hands trying to get this done.

FYI, every purchase of AB on mac donates to his "I need a new roof" fund :P

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Couldn't you just have run a virtual machine with WinX on it already?

He's not good with computer.

[Psychosplodge]

Maybe that means we need a news section in the oubliette...

[Chris Copeland]

Couldn't you just have run a virtual machine with WinX on it already?

I can't... I really, really can't. :) Copeland

[Chris Copeland]

Colen has been working his fingers into little Scottish nubs on his hands trying to get this done.

FYI, every purchase of AB on mac donates to his "I need a new roof" fund :P

I assume that the above-mentioned "Colen" is the coder who made this happen for Wolf's Lair. If so, I love him and happily contributed my $40 (American) to his new roof fund yesterday!

[L192837465]

PS You can also buy a Zune for less than an iPod... but the experience won't be as good...

Zune software is amazing, and the hardware is equally as good and far more durable. Also, I can stream music from my Zune to my Xbox wirelessly, auto-connect in my car, and instantly make playlists on the fly without having to save them permanently.


More power to you, I guess, but Macs and PCs are actually made by the same company, as well.

Have fun having to buy $80 keyboards because of hardware propriety.

[Defenestratus]

I assume that the above-mentioned "Colen" is the coder who made this happen for Wolf's Lair. If so, I love him and happily contributed my $40 (American) to his new roof fund yesterday!

Yes. He's a cheeky Scotsman who takes great pleasure in bombarding me with his Apple-loving nonsense and also pretty much the one dude responsible for AB, Hero Lab and other stuff.

[Chris Copeland]

Wow. Just wow. I guess I should expect this kind of nonsense on the interwebz. Listen, all of you PC users who keep tossing out little snarky remarks like the above: please stop. Seriously. Is this Middle School?

OK. I get it: you lot are better at computers than me and can't believe how dumb I am for using a Mac. You have no ability to see a perspective that isn't your own and you feel free (hiding behind the anonymity of the interwebz) to snarkily snipe at me for being a Mac user.

Please go back a few posts in this thread and read the post where I detail exactly why I use a Mac and how I have no desire to be be as technically literate as you all. I've laid it all out in black and white for you. Take a moment. Absorb it. Try to see a perspective that isn't your own. I begrudge clone users nothing. I am just happy not to be one any more.

Note: again, this thread is NEWS for the Mac-using, wargame-playing members of this community.

Cheers. Chris Copeland

[Chris Copeland]

Yes. He's a cheeky Scotsman who takes great pleasure in bombarding me with his Apple-loving nonsense and also pretty much the one dude responsible for AB, Hero Lab and other stuff.

Please pass along my deep love and affection for him! I passed along $40 to him yesterday! :)

[Defenestratus]

Wow. Just wow. I guess I should expect this kind of nonsense on the interwebz. Listen, all of you PC users who keep tossing out little snarky remarks like the above: please stop. Seriously. Is this Middle School?

OK. I get it: you lot are better at computers than me and can't believe how dumb I am for using a Mac. You have no ability to see a perspective that isn't your own and you feel free (hiding behind the anonymity of the interwebz) to snarkily snipe at me for being a Mac user.

Please go back a few posts in this thread and read the post where I detail exactly why I use a Mac and how I have no desire to be be as technically literate as you all. I've laid it all out in black and white for you. Take a moment. Absorb it. Try to see a perspective that isn't your own. I begrudge clone users nothing. I am just happy not to be one any more.

Note: again, this thread is NEWS for the Mac-using, wargame-playing members of this community.

Cheers. Chris Copeland

If this is in response to my post - its actually the truth. He really does love his Apple and he really does bombard it with me in a joking way - kind of like how friends give each other **** you know.

For the record I have no issue with the product Apple puts out (Except for Quicktime and iTunes) - I have an issue with the way in which Apple has turned its products into a cult following by misleading uninformed customers. That really plays second fiddle to all the frivolous patent trolling that Apple has done lately in the mobile world. That's really the core of my complaint against them - their insistence on using lawfare to maintain a competitive advantage.

Thats it.

[Chris Copeland]

If this is in response to my post - its actually the truth. He really does love his Apple and he really does bombard it with me in a joking way - kind of like how friends give each other **** you know.

For the record I have no issue with the product Apple puts out (Except for Quicktime and iTunes) - I have an issue with the way in which Apple has turned its products into a cult following by misleading uninformed customers. That really plays second fiddle to all the frivolous patent trolling that Apple has done lately in the mobile world. That's really the core of my complaint against them - their insistence on using lawfare to maintain a competitive advantage.

Thats it.

Defense, your post popped up whilst I was typing my response to a prior one. One more "Have fun paying more for XY&Z" comment. You and I posted almost simultaneously so your post ended up right above mine. No, mate, that wasn't directed at you. :)

[robrodgers46]

This is *hilarious* to see at this point in time. This argument has been going on since 1984, and it gladdens me to see that it has not lost any steam at all!

I bought a Mac in 1985, because it was cool. Way overpriced for what it did, but so much more sophisticated than a PC. I had PC's too, along with my old Commodore which ran games better than either one.

Now, 27 years later, I am all Mac, for basically the same reason. It's just so much cooler, especially when compared to the crap sold by Dell and HP. As far as the OS, MicroSoft lost me after Windows 95, which was elegant, clean, efficient, and frugal with resources. Coincidentally, it was the last one that Bill Gates was closely involved with the development. Since then the Windows OS has been garbage, and most of the readily available platforms are garbage too.

But don't stop arguing, it's fun to watch.

r

[Wolfshade]

It's just so much cooler
I'm not sure it is, mine's water cooled, compared that to air cooled macs, I think mine's cooler :)

[Uncle Nutsy]

wow.

chris and I were having a pretty decent conversation about our chosen platforms, and then people have to RUIN it by tuning it into another mac/pc war.

It accomplishes NOTHING but getting everyone in a sour mood. I just wish people would compare their computer sausages somewhere else. I'm done.

[Lockark]

This thread is awesome. I don't even know how to express what I have just read threw.

[inquisitorsog]

For me, it's not about Apple vs. Microsoft. It's about Apple vs. the PC vendors.

The PC vendors are not reasonably priced. They are priced WAY too low to produce quality hardware. I had to return a Dead On Arrival Lenovo because, despite it being a top end machine with top end upgrades, they couldn't be bothered to make sure it actually would power on.

Because that was for client work and a new project was starting in a week (and Lenovo would not prioritize me for getting the replacement), I ended up going to the big box store, getting the top end sony they had, buying a solid state drive and flopping that in. That laptop lasted me not even a year before all of the USB ports were so loose that they couldn't hold a plug anymore.

Right now, my HP gaming rig is close to useless. It doesn't even make it past power on most of the time. I have to reset it several times before it even gets past the self tests. It won't give me an error, mind you. It just sits there.

Meanwhile, I've got a 4 year old mac book plastic that's still trundling along nicely. It caught far more abuse than that sony b/c the mac book was my Dungeon Master's assistant and went places with me. The sony sat on my desk at home most of the time.

And the kicker is that both that mac book plastic and the mac book pro I got last year both run windows most of the time!

[Uncle Nutsy]

Lenovo & HP... a tech's worst nightmare.

I still can't believe they have the gall to saddle people with bottom-end hardware and terrible customer support. HP SHOULD have learned a few things from when they bought Voodoo PC. But no. they keep expecting people to just bend over.

[Psychosplodge]

I bought a Mac in 1985, because it was cool. Way overpriced for what it did, but so much more sophisticated than a PC. I had PC's too, along with my old Commodore which ran games better than either one.

But in 1985 apple designed their own hardware, so it actually had an advantage. Now they just use old intel parts, making it pretty much the same as a mid range pc.


I'm not sure it is, mine's water cooled, compared that to air cooled macs, I think mine's cooler :)

^lmao


For me, it's not about Apple vs. Microsoft. It's about Apple vs. the PC vendors.

The PC vendors are not reasonably priced. They are priced WAY too low to produce quality hardware. I had to return a Dead On Arrival Lenovo because, despite it being a top end machine with top end upgrades, they couldn't be bothered to make sure it actually would power on.

And the kicker is that both that mac book plastic and the mac book pro I got last year both run windows most of the time!

There's your mistake, buying cheap mass market stuff, if you're competent enough to change an hdd, it's not a massive stretch to build a unit, which generally costs you less for a better spec...
And of course they run windows easily it's just an intel system in a pretty box...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I, for one, love my PC. I also love my iPod.
I am fairly neutral.

[Deadlift]

All I know is being in an apple store feels so much cooler than being in pc world :p

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

All I know is being in an apple store feels so much cooler than being in pc world :p

Unless there's 50 million Japanese people there.
All I know is, I lost a ton of weight playing a game in GW the once, having no air conditioning sucks. :D

[Psychosplodge]

All I know is being in an apple store feels so much cooler than being in pc world :p
Idk going in either makes me feel tainted and dirty...

[Wolfshade]

It would be intering to see if in the future there will be a common architecture so if you buy a peice of software it doesn't matter if you are running WinX, Northamerican cat, or Andriod X and it would still work.
I doubt it would ever happen though since we can't even get DVDs that work in every country

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war. :D

[Psychosplodge]

I doubt it would ever happen though since we can't even get DVDs that work in every country

But that's because sony wanted region coding, because they are both a hardware producer and publisher.
Which gives them more control over distribution and pricing, unless ofcourse you buy a non sony dvd player and change the region setting to zero....

[Deadlift]

But that's because sony wanted region coding, because they are both a hardware producer and publisher.
Which gives them more control over distribution and pricing, unless ofcourse you buy a non sony dvd player and change the region setting to zero....

For those of us who remember the Betamax and VHS war, didn't go too well for Sony that time round. Which is I expect why we have regional disks (thanks to Sony) now.

Personally I think DVD, blu ray etc is a dying technology with the ability to stream movies now so easily.

OT, I wonder when Army builder is going to do an iPad app ?

[Psychosplodge]

I hope not, I don't want to be wasting bandwidth downloading a film when I can usually pick it up for a fiver on a dvd/blu-ray at somepoint

[Wolfshade]

I also hope not, as I would have to upgrade my TV. Currently my only way to get it on the web is via the Wii and we all know how great they are for rendering speeds/pixel density

[inquisitorsog]

There's your mistake, buying cheap mass market stuff, if you're competent enough to change an hdd, it's not a massive stretch to build a unit, which generally costs you less for a better spec...


Which just proves the point that I was making. What kind of answer is "build your own" anyway? I can do most of the work to build a house too, that doesn't mean I build one every time I move.

[Psychosplodge]

Which just proves the point that I was making. What kind of answer is "build your own" anyway? I can do most of the work to build a house too, that doesn't mean I build one every time I move.

The best one, you get value for money, exactly what you want and can customise it how you want for a lot less effort than building a house, though I might have a go at that too if I can find a reasonable priced plot of land...
But really compare a mac with the pc's available in the same price bracket, and the mac's simply can't compete...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

My custom PC is boss, I love it!
If it was legal, I would marry it.

[Psychosplodge]

lol, not this blokes (http://www.overclock.net/t/1200785/project-kapros-ikea-galant-pc-desk-mod) though it ?

[Chris Copeland]

But really compare a mac with the pc's available in the same price bracket, and the mac's simply can't compete...

Except in the areas I've already mentioned: for non-technical people such as myself Apple provides a first class computing experience. I can see why a tech-head might not value how easy Macs make things for people like me. However, Apple has done a great job of making computing easy for the non-technically inclined. Again: there are a LOT of customers (like me) who have no more desire to know how their computers work than how their TVs work. Apple caters to us.

Back to the OP: I think that Wolf's Lair is leaving money on the table by not having Army Builder out for the iPad. Of course, they've only just put AB out for Macs. I understand that a LOT of coding had to be done. I'm hoping that much of that groundwork will make it easy for them to release an iPad version in short order.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

lol, not this blokes (http://www.overclock.net/t/1200785/project-kapros-ikea-galant-pc-desk-mod) though it ?

Jesus! Want want want want.

[Psychosplodge]

Yeah we thoroughly derailed it from there,

I'm sure they can't be that simple, or do you just have to assume that everything isn't compatible unless it has mac written all over it?

[Wolfshade]

My custom PC is boss, I love it!
If it was legal, I would marry it.

Does it take a floppy disc drive, fnar fnar fnar.

Back to the OP, while the news of AB for OSX the rest I am so happy that I can get rid of my last WinX pc does have some political spin, either that or it is interpreted that way given your joy to be a single OS running house. (I know I was excited when I got everything in my house on the same OS, well aside from the Wii but we'll treat that as a console..)

[Psychosplodge]

Jesus! Want want want want.

I know right?
I'm already collecting parts for my own version, sourced some legs, stripped the drive brackets out of an old rack mount, along with the m/b tray, just need the wood, paint and electronics lol though i'm thinking of having a full tinted acrylic lid so it glows but looks black out of use....
Also don't know whether to put a vertical upright on the back for a floating monitor, as it will only be a single monitor set up for space reasons...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I wouldn't know where to start. :D

[Defenestratus]

Back to the OP: I think that Wolf's Lair is leaving money on the table by not having Army Builder out for the iPad.

There are several legal/contractual issues preventing that from happening right now. The way in which AB distributes its "army/game system files" via the agreement with GW is not permitted in the Apple iOS ecosystem without being completely cost-prohibitive for Wolflair.

[Chris Copeland]

I'm sure they can't be that simple, or do you just have to assume that everything isn't compatible unless it has mac written all over it?

Here is what I know: my computing life before Apple (DOS, Windows 3.0 through Windows 95) was a complicated nightmare/never-ending headache. Life since switching over to Apple has been smooth sailing. I never have to worry about how my computer works. Every piece of software I install works from the work go and everything is integrated. It is all so EASY... like watching TV or using the microwave.

So, I am a perfect example of Apple's core demographic: non-tech-heads who are willing to pay more so that their computing lives are easy... I think it's because Apple is a "top-down" company... more of a closed system than the wild west of the clone world.

PS Do people still use the term "clone" anymore? Back in the late 80s and early 90s the term PC applied to all personal computers and the world was split between Macs and clones (short for IBM-clones... IBM being the biggest hardware manufacturer of the time).

[Defenestratus]

Chris: Many of your complaints against PCs are outmoded. Certainly there is a bit more complication behind the windows ecosystem, but Windows 7 has made the setup process about as foolproof as it can be. My 4 year old machine hasn't had a problem since I originally loaded it with Win7 (I know, you can't believe its a Dell) and windows updates automatically deal with silly things such as "drivers" behind the scenes (which is how Mac does it)

If you're basing your opinions on the PC world on an operating system that came out almost twenty years ago then do yourself a favor and just see what has been improved since you left.

[Chris Copeland]

If you're basing your opinions on the PC world on an operating system that came out almost twenty years ago then do yourself a favor and just see what has been improved since you left.

I see where you are coming from. I really do. Actually, I left the clone world 8 years ago (except for the one that I've kept limping along to run Army Builder). So my bad experiences are about a decade old, not two. :)

The thing is, Apple was there to fill the void and make my life easier (SO MUCH easier). I don't feel any real desire to test the Windows-waters again. I am akin to a man that used to get crappy service at one restaurant, switched to a more expensive one that he REALLY likes on the other side of town, and doesn't really feel like driving back to the original place to see if it's good these days.

There was a whole advertising campaign in the mid-90s that was SO aimed at folks just like me. It was the /switch campaign and you can see an example here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fupFba-_7-M&feature=relmfu). It featured folks JUST LIKE me who were just DONE with Windows and just wanted things to work. Heck, Microsoft pretty much created the marketplace FOR Apple by making everything so difficult for us non-technical types.

Who knows. Perhaps someday I'll give Microsoft another go... perhaps not... I'm pretty happy with Apple...

Cheers

[inquisitorsog]

Back to the OP: I think that Wolf's Lair is leaving money on the table by not having Army Builder out for the iPad. Of course, they've only just put AB out for Macs. I understand that a LOT of coding had to be done. I'm hoping that much of that groundwork will make it easy for them to release an iPad version in short order.

There's a lot of constraints that come with putting an app in the apple store. They force you into certain types of business model and I'm not entirely sure Lone Wolf would be able to pull off its "rent" based model via the app store. Along the way, you also get a lot more technical constraints imposed by Apple on what you can and can't do (mostly for security, but also for battery life and other mobile computing concerns). iOS development comes with rules that a typical desktop developer simply isn't used to thinking about.

Further, AB is simply not going to be a good touch tablet app as is. In fact, it would be an absolutely horrible experience.They'd need to completely redo the UI. The port to OSX was a trivial one compared to porting to iOS when you consider that they'll have to not just translate the code, but also rethink the UI.

[Neelam]

I think what annoys me in this thread is the OP's use of the term "tech head" and also going on about Dell , for starters any PC user will tell you Dell is useless. The majorty of regular PC users will have sourced their own parts and had it assembled / assembled it themselves .

As for the term "Tech Head" , it really doesn't take much to have a basic understanding of how to build and maintain your own PC , if you've played with Lego as a child then you already have a working knowledge of how to build a PC - it really is that simple , it's clearly explained in the manuals that come with the parts. If you run into any issues (which for myself is very rare) then there's nothing a quick google won't solve .

For example I don't consider myself particularily intelligent (I scraped through highschool with minimum grades) but learning to build / maintain a PC was barely even a challenge when I was a teenager . Since then I've been through several versions of Windows and several builds of my PC without a problem and enjoyed the learning experience.

So in my mind Macs are for the kind of people that would rather have a microwave ready meal/ McDonalds than look up a recipe online or even have a little experiment for themselves in the kitchen. Or call up a mechanic to change a tyre instead of figuring it out yourself. Lazy People

[Chris Copeland]

I think what annoys me in this thread is the OP's use of the term "tech head" and also going on about Dell , for starters any PC user will tell you Dell is useless. The majorty of regular PC users will have sourced their own parts and had it assembled / assembled it themselves .

As for the term "Tech Head" , it really doesn't take much to have a basic understanding of how to build and maintain your own PC , if you've played with Lego as a child then you already have a working knowledge of how to build a PC - it really is that simple , it's clearly explained in the manuals that come with the parts. If you run into any issues (which for myself is very rare) then there's nothing a quick google won't solve .

For example I don't consider myself particularily intelligent (I scraped through highschool with minimum grades) but learning to build / maintain a PC was barely even a challenge when I was a teenager . Since then I've been through several versions of Windows and several builds of my PC without a problem and enjoyed the learning experience.

So in my mind Macs are for the kind of people that would rather have a microwave ready meal/ McDonalds than look up a recipe online or even have a little experiment for themselves in the kitchen. Or call up a mechanic to change a tyre instead of figuring it out yourself. Lazy People

What amazing arrogance. Something comes easy to you and anyone who doesn't follow your path is lazy? Someone is lazy because they have different strengths and interests than you? Pfffft.

There are probably plenty of things that interest me and that I probably do better than you (I'm just guessing since we've never met). I'm a fair hand at cooking. I teach children to read. I'm good with an airbrush. Do I look down upon you for not having the same skill set? (Note: that is a rhetorical question. The answer is obviously "no"). Grow up. Cheers. Copeland

PS The A/C went out in my house recently. Was I lazy for paying $5,000 to a HVAC tech to come and replace my entire system? Should I have run off to Air Conditioning school, earned a HVAC license, and done it myself? (Note: also a rhetorical question).

PPS Most of my tech-head friends are proud of being tech heads. Also, I've never mentioned Dell. Again, cheers...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Also, my laptop is a Dell, and it is quite good to be honest. Quiet and reliable.

[Wolfshade]

This is getting rapidly more divergent.

IF Chris does not wish to upgrade a computer then he should not be berated for not doing so. Similarly, the last couple of upgrades I did to my PCs were new shop stock options, I have the expertise to build a new one, I could have just upgraded some of my components but I chose not to bother.
His chosen OS is apple and that is his opinion and not matter how "wrong" you think it is, it is his.
I have pointed out in this thread that a lot of what he can do on Mac he can do on PC, the opposite is also true.

For anyone who has any work with Quality Management the term quality is defined as the extent to which an object/system meets your demands. So it is purely down to each persons experiance of it. For example a Ferrari F50 is not a qualtiy car for someone who requires it to have seeting for 5 adults and take shopping in the boot.

Mac vs. PC arguments are fine but don't have a go at someone just because they don't possess the same skill set/world view as you

[TDA you are not a greengrocer you shall use the apostrophe correctly :-p]

[Deadlift]

Whoa there Neelam, hold your horses buddy, I am lazy because I don't want to build a PC ?

I have a family, a small business, I start my day at 7:30 and at the height of the season I get home around midnight. I am not lazy, I just want a computer that I can unpack after purchase and plug it in and then off I go. Apple provide that with their products that no other company does. It fits my needs perfectly. Don't tell people like me I am lazy, that's just ignorance mate, maybe unintended but it is what it is.

As for mcdonalds, sure I have been known to chow down on a burger or 5, but I throw away the buns :)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

That better?

[wittdooley]

What amazing arrogance. Something comes easy to you and anyone who doesn't follow your path is lazy? Someone is lazy because they have different strengths and interests than you? Pfffft.

There are probably plenty of things that interest me and that I probably do better than you (I'm just guessing since we've never met). I'm a fair hand at cooking. I teach children to read. I'm good with an airbrush. Do I look down upon you for not having the same skill set? (Note: that is a rhetorical question. The answer is obviously "no"). Grow up. Cheers. Copeland

PS The A/C went out in my house recently. Was I lazy for paying $5,000 to a HVAC tech to come and replace my entire system? Should I have run off to Air Conditioning school, earned a HVAC license, and done it myself? (Note: also a rhetorical question).

PPS Most of my tech-head friends are proud of being tech heads. Also, I've never mentioned Dell. Again, cheers...

Chris-- You may want to define rhetorical for him; I fear he may not understand what it means.

@Neelam-- The point here is that there are plenty of people using Apple because they have other things to do with their time than build and maintain a PC. It has nothing to do with being lazy. It all depends on how you value your time.

How long is the time period of your "several PC" builds? I've had the same MacBook since I was a freshman in college (so about 10 years) and I replaced it a month ago. It still works for the internet and word processing, but it still maintained for a decade without having to do much of anything to it.

In regards to Army Builder in general: They're losing a ton of money not having an iPad app. Site all of the 'restrictions' you want, but I'd love the opportunity to have the program on my iPad, and it couldn't hurt the program by 'upgrading the UI;' Army Builder, as it stands, is incredibly utliitarian and could stand for a graphical face lift.

[Chris Copeland]

In regards to Army Builder in general: They're losing a ton of money not having an iPad app. Site all of the 'restrictions' you want, but I'd love the opportunity to have the program on my iPad, and it couldn't hurt the program by 'upgrading the UI;' Army Builder, as it stands, is incredibly utliitarian and could stand for a graphical face lift.

Witt, the AB I just bought has a new skin which is MUCH easier on the eyes than the old blue/black interface. Also, there is an option to output lists in an iPad compatible format... not the same as a real iPad version, but a nice nod in that direction. Defensestratus (who seems to know the coder who built AB) indicates that the main reason there won't be an iPad version has to do with how the Apple store works and the way data comes to AB. I would LOVE to have an iPad version... but I'll take what I can get! After years of being promised a Mac version of AB I finally have one! I am so happy! Cope

[Defenestratus]

For what its worth, I've had AB running on my Xoom for more than a year. Works great over 4G LTE.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-i9VoMi1fiZI/T9i0C5d9qoI/AAAAAAAAWDc/FEdmUO_TVSo/s800/Screenshot_2012-06-13-11-36-09.png

I've also configured AB to output mobile rosters to my Google Drive folder, so I have instant access to all my Rosters on any of my devices at any time. Sure I can't modify them, but as you can see, I really don't have a shortage of lists to pick from (over 200 lists):
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-gvHoOt6L51c/T9i1XoaDPZI/AAAAAAAAWDk/jTCoW5Sr2_M/s640/Screenshot_2012-06-13-11-43-59.png

Another thing that I forgot to mention - is that I can use my "remote" setup of AB to create or modify a list, and once I save it, its automatically added to my Gdrive so I can just pull up the HTML file in two presses (or voice actions) of my tablet or phone.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I wish I had this file...

[Chris Copeland]

See above? THAT'S the skin I am referring to! It is MUCH easier on the eyes! Love it!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Could someone please forward me this program? Do you need to be constantly online to use it?

[Chris Copeland]

Could someone please forward me this program? Do you need to be constantly online to use it?

Army Builder? No. It is an "offline" program. you can download it here (http://www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=army_builder).

[wittdooley]

Witt, the AB I just bought has a new skin which is MUCH easier on the eyes than the old blue/black interface. Also, there is an option to output lists in an iPad compatible format... not the same as a real iPad version, but a nice nod in that direction. Defensestratus (who seems to know the coder who built AB) indicates that the main reason there won't be an iPad version has to do with how the Apple store works and the way data comes to AB. I would LOVE to have an iPad version... but I'll take what I can get! After years of being promised a Mac version of AB I finally have one! I am so happy! Cope

I wont lie; I wish GW would either officially license AB or make their own product. It would solve a ton of these problems and would eliminate any wait times presently associated with AB. Sadly, we all know GW is never interested in the "best solutions" for much of anything :P

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Army Builder? No. It is an "offline" program. you can download it here (http://www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=army_builder).

Cheers matey, time to get on the wagon! :D

[wittdooley]

See above? THAT'S the skin I am referring to! It is MUCH easier on the eyes! Love it!

Blah. I still think it's kinda ugly. You can put lipstick on a pig..... At least pork belly tastes good, I guess.

I'd have no interested using the program "as is" on a tablet. I want nice, big, sausage finger proof buttons. Honestly, I'd be fine if it worked like selecting your produce in the Self Serve check out line at the grocery store.

[Chris Copeland]

I wont lie; I wish GW would either officially license AB or make their own product. It would solve a ton of these problems and would eliminate any wait times presently associated with AB. Sadly, we all know GW is never interested in the "best solutions" for much of anything :P

I seem to recall that GW came up with it's own army building program. It was sold in two parts (Imperial & non-Imperial), each part cost MORE than AB, and it didn't work as well as AB. I remember seeing it for sale during 4th edition but I didn't know anyone who had purchased it... I take it that it finally lost all support after getting it's butt kicked by AB.

Does anyone here remember that program? What was it called? Was it any good?

[Defenestratus]

I seem to recall that GW came up with it's own army building program. It was sold in two parts (Imperial & non-Imperial), each part cost MORE than AB, and it didn't work as well as AB. I remember seeing it for sale during 4th edition but I didn't know anyone who had purchased it... I take it that it finally lost all support after getting it's butt kicked by AB.

Does anyone here remember that program? What was it called? Was it any good?

GW did do that, and I remember the xenos one was called "Enemies of the Imperium" and it was honestly horrible.

There's a reason why they haven't tried again.

[Defenestratus]

I'd have no interested using the program "as is" on a tablet. I want nice, big, sausage finger proof buttons. Honestly, I'd be fine if it worked like selecting your produce in the Self Serve check out line at the grocery store.

Does Battlescribe mobile exist on the Apple Ecosystem?
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-gIV1jNefnwU/T9i75o7J79I/AAAAAAAAWD4/dEc4LMvDq70/s640/Screenshot_2012-06-13-12-12-00.png

[Danno]

I don't know what's better, the news of AB finally coming to Mac's or the comedy of the Mac vs PC argument...

I might have to print this entire thread out just so I can re-read it later. Not on a monitor.

[Deadlift]

I don't know what's better, the news of AB finally coming to Mac's or the comedy of the Mac vs PC argument...

I might have to print this entire thread out just so I can re-read it later. Not on a monitor.

Maybe you should get out more ;)

[Chris Copeland]

I don't know what's better, the news of AB finally coming to Mac's or the comedy of the Mac vs PC argument...

The truly bizarre thing about this thread is that it isn't a Mac vs Clone thread at all. The Mac side has never done any PC bashing. Some PC users have mocked the Mac users for being Mac users (and some have defended us) but nowhere in this thread did any Apple user bash PC use. Mostly, it went, "Hey, I'm glad Army Builder is finally on Mac!" followed by "Ha! Yer a dumba$s for liking Macs. I can build a better computer cheaper!"

In all fairness, the majority of posters to this thread have tried to stay on-topic and have not tried to start a PC vs Mac flame thread. I would have liked to hear more from Uncle Nutsy. He seems to be very well versed in the evolution of modern computers. It seemed like he knew exactly what I'd been through as a former clone user. It also sounds like, perhaps, the clone world isn't as awful as it used to be...

Back to the OP: I predict that Wolf's Lair is going to clean up on this release! It's almost a license to print money given all of the pent up demand amongst Mac users out there (who are also wargamers).

[Deadlift]

How is it to use, being a self confessed neanderthal is it quite intuitive ? Or will I have to spend awhile getting used to the system. :confused:

To be perfectly honest my "list building" is on a note pad and usually consists of wishful thinking and what I actually own . This could (a) be very useful and (b) quite expensive.

Oh thanks in advance Chris me old matey.

[Deadlift]

Does Battlescribe mobile exist on the Apple Ecosystem?
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-gIV1jNefnwU/T9i75o7J79I/AAAAAAAAWD4/dEc4LMvDq70/s640/Screenshot_2012-06-13-12-12-00.png

I couldn't find it in the app store, closest I got was battlefrite, which like some warrior chip app.

There a few free list building apps but you have to input the unit details yourself by the looks of them, and none were rated very well at all.

[Defenestratus]

The Mac side has never done any PC bashing. Some PC users have mocked the Mac users for being Mac users (and some have defended us) but nowhere in this thread did any Apple user bash PC use.

To be a mild-mannered "Clone" defender (which in itself is a derogatory term towards the people that use these machines),

Apple based their entire marketing campaign for 5+ years on the "I'm a PC, I'm a Mac" which was tongue-in-cheek making fun of PC's and their users.

PC: Outdated, boring, beige, businesslike, pedantic
Mac: Hip, trendy, sexy, artistic, superior

Apple basically *created* the Mac vs. PC flamewar but had a multimillion dollar ad campaign to creatively make their side in a way that made people think that they were being cute and innocent.

[Defenestratus]

I couldn't find it in the app store, closest I got was battlefrite, which like some warrior chip app.

There a few free list building apps but you have to input the unit details yourself by the looks of them, and none were rated very well at all.

Here's the issue in a nutshell as I understand it.

Per AB's agreement with GW, they cannot distribute the XML army data files, which would necessitate them being hosted on a "neutral" third party. As far as I understand it, GW would not like their army data files being on the iTunes store.

However, pulling data in and "executing it" from outside the iTunes store is something that Apple has pulled apps for before.

[Chris Copeland]

To be a mild-mannered "Clone" defender (which in itself is a derogatory term towards the people that use these machines),

Apple based their entire marketing campaign for 5+ years on the "I'm a PC, I'm a Mac" which was tongue-in-cheek making fun of PC's and their users.

PC: Outdated, boring, beige, businesslike, pedantic
Mac: Hip, trendy, sexy, artistic, superior

Apple basically *created* the Mac vs. PC flamewar but had a multimillion dollar ad campaign to creatively make their side in a way that made people think that they were being cute and innocent.

Defense, I didn't know the term "clone" was offensive to anyone. It is short for "IBM-clone." Back in the late 80s and early 90s there were two types of computers: IBMs and Macs. IBMs ran on DOS (later with Windows 2.0, 3.0, and then 3.1 layered over it) and Macs ran the Mac OS. Lots of companies started coming out with IBM-like machine which were generically called "clones." Most people in the world were using DOS and Windows either on real IBMs or clones. A small minority had Macs. I had a 486DX 25megahertz clone (it was awful... it was one of the first 486 machines). Back then PC was a generic term that referred to any kind of personal computer.

Has the term clone changed over the years?

I seriously have no intention of deriding anyone for the computer system they use and I quite admire people who take the time to become skilled in the area. Copeland

PS The marketing campaign that preceded the "I'm a Mac, I'm a PC" was the Apple/switch campaign. It was awesome. It SO spoke to me. You can see an example of it here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fupFba-_7-M) (also here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPz5I0xTZT0&feature=endscreen&NR=1), here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9pxYlvPm0Y&feature=relmfu), and here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YP_MCU6jc8&feature=relmfu)).

[Chris Copeland]

How is it to use, being a self confessed neanderthal is it quite intuitive ? Or will I have to spend awhile getting used to the system. :confused:

Deadlift, I've found Army Builder to be an easy to use and intuitive program. Here is how much I liked it:



I've kept a Windows 95 machine running with only ONE program on it for years: Army Builder.
That machine isn't part of my home network nor is it attached to a printer.
When I wanted to print a list for a game I had to go upstairs, work out the list on AB on the Windows machine, save the file as a PDF, and then take it downstairs to print it on my Mac.
When I had to update data files I had to download them on my Mac, put them on a flash drive, and then carry the drive upstairs to the Windows machine.

Even given ALL OF THAT I still found Army Builder so useful that I kept using it all of these years. Heck, with this purchase I've bought Army Builder THREE TIMES now. You can see why I'd be so happy to finally have one of my favorite programs running natively on my Mac...



PS When you purchase AB you get two licenses so you can either split it with a mate or install it on two machines... the licenses aren't format specific.


Cheers

[Defenestratus]

Chris,

Thats all well and good, but as we can tell in this thread alone, there are touchy people who anthropomorphize their computers, much like Apple did with their ad campaign against PC's. You call their PC a "Clone" and what does that say about them? It also reinforces the Mac/Apple "unique, trendy, hipster" marketing mentality that as a Mac user, you're not a clone (Again, take a look at Apple's 1984 commercial).

My first PC computer was a 286, 4mhz. I was 12 years old. Before that, I had a commodore 64/128 that I taught myself QBASIC on.

[Chris Copeland]

...as we can tell in this thread alone, there are touchy people who anthropomorphize their computers, much like Apple did with their ad campaign against PC's. You call their PC a "Clone" and what does that say about them?

It's all good. I did not mean the term clone pejoratively. Back when I was getting into computing clone just meant any DOS/Windows based machine. Here is a quote about those days from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clone_%28computing%29):


When IBM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Business_Machines) announced the IBM PC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC) in 1981, other companies such as Compaq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq) decided to offer clones of the PC as a legal reimplementation from the PC's documentation or reverse engineering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering). Because most of the components, except the PC's BIOS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BIOS), were publicly available, all Compaq had to do was reverse-engineer the BIOS. The result was a machine with better value than the archetypes that the machines resembled. The use of the term "PC clone" to describe IBM PC compatible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_compatible) computers fell out of use in the 1990s; the class of machines it now describes are simply called PCs.
While the term has fallen mostly into commercial disuse, the term clone for PCs still applies to a PC made to entry-level or above standard (at the time it was made) which bears no commercial branding (e.g., Acer, IBM, HP, Dell).

I shouldn't assume that the language has stayed stagnant. Apparently, the term "clone" has fallen into disuse since my college days. :)

The Apple campaign that hooked me in was not the one that focused on coolness. The Apple/switch marketing campaign was keyed to the frustration that users like me felt at everything not always working. The "I'm a Mac/I'm a PC" campaign came later. By that point I was already a convert.

[Tynskel]

hah. I work with super computers.
I just tunnel to them with my mac. Works like a charm.
Fortran, baby!

[flekkzo]

hah. I work with super computers.
I just tunnel to them with my mac. Works like a charm.
Fortran, baby!

Ever had a bottle of Old Fortran? :)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Army Builder seems very cool! Tried it last night.
I'll have to buy it when I move out and get internet. :)

[Wolfshade]

Slightly off topic, but Macs are PCs...
It is just the Vendor/Operating systems which make the differences...

I always was a pen & paper or spreadsheet, then I used a mate's AB and I have to say it is briiliant. I've recently found out that you can drag and drop ICs into squads! which I never realised that you could do. I was chuffed to bits.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I was all like "wait a minute, I can print this out into a lovely, tidy army list that's all in the same format as every other list that I do?? SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!"

I have an issue with consistency when it comes to listing squads and wargear.

[Psychosplodge]

Also, my laptop is a Dell, and it is quite good to be honest. Quiet and reliable.

From the internet reviews you're the exception than the rule, but as dell are generally the budget end of the market you could ask yourself how well people look after their "cheap" laptop


I don't know what's better, the news of AB finally coming to Mac's or the comedy of the Mac vs PC argument...

I might have to print this entire thread out just so I can re-read it later. Not on a monitor.


Maybe you should get out more ;)

Like outside, with the sun and breeze and everything?:confused:


The truly bizarre thing about this thread is that it isn't a Mac vs Clone thread at all. The Mac side has never done any PC bashing. Some PC users have mocked the Mac users for being Mac users (and some have defended us) but nowhere in this thread did any Apple user bash PC use. Mostly, it went, "Hey, I'm glad Army Builder is finally on Mac!" followed by "Ha! Yer a dumba$s for liking Macs. I can build a better computer cheaper!"


I think that's n over simplification somwat, but Apples' entire marketing is based around criticism of PC's so it's hardly surprising...
I mean they started it first:p



Defense, I didn't know the term "clone" was offensive to anyone. It is short for "IBM-clone." Back in the late 80s and early 90s there were two types of computers: IBMs and Macs. IBMs ran on DOS (later with Windows 2.0, 3.0, and then 3.1 layered over it) and Macs ran the Mac OS. Lots of companies started coming out with IBM-like machine which were generically called "clones." Most people in the world were using DOS and Windows either on real IBMs or clones. A small minority had Macs. I had a 486DX 25megahertz clone (it was awful... it was one of the first 486 machines). Back then PC was a generic term that referred to any kind of personal computer.
.

Prior to this thread I'd never heard the term, was just a north american thing, or was it common in the wider English speaking world?
Of course it's got negative connotations it's not far off calling someone a sheep...


Slightly off topic, but Macs are PCs...
It is just the Vendor/Operating systems which make the differences...


Exactly but they play that down as much as possible...

[Uncle Nutsy]

running windows 95.. there's your problem. a heaping, stinking, pile of turd that they had the gall to call an OS.

[Chris Copeland]

running windows 95.. there's your problem. a heaping, stinking, pile of turd that they had the gall to call an OS.

Right? When I switched over to OSX I was in HEAVEN. Suddenly everything WORKED! I'd never known that computing could be so easy: no "config.sys," no more "autoexec.bat," no "highmem," no constant tracking down of drivers nor trying to figure out compatibility. And the APPS! iTunes, iPhoto, and iMovie had been implemented better than any similar software I'd seen up until then... and they all worked together seamlessly!

Uncle Nutsy, do you remember that back then all such computers were called PCs? Someone else asked this earlier: was the term clone (as in IBM clone) a North American term or did it enjoy worldwide usage?

[flekkzo]

Right? When I switched over to OSX I was in HEAVEN. Suddenly everything WORKED! I'd never known that computing could be so easy: no "config.sys," no more "autoexec.bat," no "highmem," no constant tracking down of drivers nor trying to figure out compatibility. And the APPS! iTunes, iPhoto, and iMovie had been implemented better than any similar software I'd seen up until then... and they all worked together seamlessly!

Uncle Nutsy, do you remember that back then all such computers were called PCs? Someone else asked this earlier: was the term clone (as in IBM clone) a North American term or did it enjoy worldwide usage?

I wouldn't have batten an eye if you had brought up the term clone. It's not anything unusual. Also I remember the Amiga (awesome) vs Atari (buuh!) wars :) But to be honest I don't really call them clones anymore, I call them POS. All work laptops I've used in my career have been terrible sans for the MacBook Pros. Terrible screens, overheating, constantly breaking, creaking, and crashing, and running some double *******ized version of windows (HP, Lenovo, etc with some IT department madness mixed in).

Chris, I hope you enjoy Army Builder btw, because it should make it easier for you to get to the table top, where the *real* wars happen :) Btw, Battle Scribe is worth checking out for those of us not using Army Builder :)

[Chris Copeland]

Prior to this thread I'd never heard the term, was just a north american thing, or was it common in the wider English speaking world?
Of course it's got negative connotations it's not far off calling someone a sheep...

Back then it didn't. It just meant, "machine that uses IBM's architecture and runs on DOS and Windows." You could pay top dollar for a machine actually made by IBM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PS/ValuePoint) or you could go with a less expensive computer that did the exact same thing for less... a clone of an IBM. Back then clone didn't have any negative connotations... Dell was starting to make a name for itself selling clones as was some company that sold clones that shipped in cow-pattern boxes (I cannot remember the name of that company).

I had a clone. It was an early 486DX, 25mghrtz machine with 4 megs of ram and 110 megs of hard drive. It had DOS 4.something and Windows 3.0 on it. It had a 1200 baud modem. I wanted more RAM but 1 meg of RAM cost about $100 at the time (and you had to buy two megs at a time)... yeah... I'm old...

:)

[Chris Copeland]

Chris, I hope you enjoy Army Builder btw, because it should make it easier for you to get to the table top, where the *real* wars happen :) Btw, Battle Scribe is worth checking out for those of us not using Army Builder :)

Earlier I detailed the hassle I've been going through to use Army Builder lo these many years:


Go upstairs to the Windows 95 machine (which has ONE program on it: Army Builder).
Work out list on the Windows 95 machine.
Output to PDF file on a jump drive.
Print out PDF from jump drive on downstairs Mac (Win 95 machine not networked into anything and had no printer).
When AB files needed to be updated they had to be downloaded to the Mac and then hand delivered to the Win 95 machine.

Yeah: I love Army Builder. I love Army Builder for Mac even more! :)

PS If Battle Scribe ever comes out for iPad I will definitely give it a go!

[Gir]

I wanted more RAM but 1 meg of RAM cost about $100 at the time


THAT'S why you love Apple so much. RAM pricing that you were used to.

[Psychosplodge]

I had a clone. It was an early 486DX, 25mghrtz machine with 4 megs of ram and 110 megs of hard drive. It had DOS 4.something and Windows 3.0 on it. It had a 1200 baud modem. I wanted more RAM but 1 meg of RAM cost about $100 at the time (and you had to buy two megs at a time)... yeah... I'm old...

:)

Go look at todays price of a 486 and 4Mb of sdram lol:eek:

[Wolfshade]

THAT'S why you love Apple so much. RAM pricing that you were used to.
Fixed.
:D
But seriously, the issue about things working "out of the box" used to be a justified complaint, but that is more to do with the vendor you brought it from. I would suggest that now-a-days it is the exception that you have to install any software on a shop brought machine.

[Psychosplodge]

Thanks you saved me doing it, that was doing my nut in, the only thing worse is where people use your instead of you're...

[Deadlift]

Thanks you saved me doing it, that was doing my nut in, the only thing worse is where people use your instead of you're...

that would be me then :o

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Awkward.

[Wolfshade]

As a famous supermarket tagline suggests: "Every little helps"

[Psychosplodge]

that would be me then :o
I think it's two thirds of the internet...

[Chris Copeland]

THAT'S why you love Apple so much. RAM pricing that you were used to. I would ding you for being snarky but I find this to be a genuinely funny comment! :P

[Defenestratus]

I would ding you for being snarky but I find this to be a genuinely funny comment! :P

Really funny considering the RAM is soldered to the motherboard in the new MBP.

Now if you want to upgrade your RAM, you have to buy a whole new laptop instead.

[Uncle Nutsy]

I had a clone. It was an early 486DX, 25mghrtz machine with 4 megs of ram and 110 megs of hard drive. It had DOS 4.something and Windows 3.0 on it. It had a 1200 baud modem. I wanted more RAM but 1 meg of RAM cost about $100 at the time (and you had to buy two megs at a time)... yeah... I'm old...

:)

and these days, an i5 quad core cost about $230, and 8 gigabytes of ram costs about fourty bucks.

[Skeith154]

forgive me but what exactly does this army builder do and can it be used for warhammer fantasy? i'm more or less new to the hobby my self and i've been working out army lists on paper. and enough about macs and PC. this is a 40k forum.

[Wolfshade]

Hey Skeith, Army Builder (AB) is a 3rd party program that lets you build army lists and validates them. For each army it has all the options for each unit including points so you can quickly build a list, they then enable a print-out of the list which can be used in-game. It does have fantasy modules so you can build fantasy army lists with it, it also covers a large number of non-GW argames.

[Chris Copeland]

forgive me but what exactly does this army builder do and can it be used for warhammer fantasy? i'm more or less new to the hobby my self and i've been working out army lists on paper...

What Wolfshade said. Army Builder is fantastic (in my humble opinion). You can also get it cheap: split the $40 buy in with a buddy. You get two licenses when you purchase it! Earlier in the thread one of our brethren posted screen shots of what it looks like.

It works for a whole range of games but it really shines with GW games! I've never found it particularly useful for WarmaHordes.

Good luck! Try it. You'll love it! Cope

[Skeith154]

thanks for the reply. i had no knowledge that this thing existed.