Necron Deathray

[Dlatrex]

Forgive me if this has been covered before.

The argument is for necrons, but I'm sure there are other obscure situations where the same questions apply:

Twin Linked + Deathray = ?

Using the Targeting Relay rules, it's pretty clear that for the purposes of shooting the affected unit every conceivable shooting attack in the Necron force. This got me thinking however about how it might affect weapons that do not have a standard 'to hit' roll.

We do know from the BRB that blast weapons which are TL re-roll both the scatter die and the 2D6 distance die. Would the same extend to the Doomscythe's Deathray? The 3D6 it rolls may have more to do with range than 'to hit', but the same could be said about the 2D6 rolled for blast markers. It may be reaching, but I do not see any clear rules one way or another, and the 3D6 will *certainly* determine which models receive a hit from the weapon.

To take this argument to the nth, how would TR/TL work for:

Staff of the destroyer
Portal of Exile
Template weapons


Bonus point: To play devil's advocate, is the deathray affected by night fighting rules? Its rules say nothing about targeting a model, only picking a spot on the battlefield.

[isotope99]

I would say no to both questions:

You don't target a unit with the ray so don't get twin linked from the stalker IMHO and even if you did I don't see how it would apply without a FAQ style or 6ed extension to the rules. You don't target a unit directly so shouldn't need to spot it for night fighting.

What I am unclear on for the death ray is cover saves apply for units hit. I would presume you get cover saves for area terrain and vehicle obscured based on LOS from the ray (so not likely with the flying stand) but what about shooting through multiple units?

Another interesting point, I just read the rules and it doesn't mention line of sight anywhere, can the ray blast through any terrain :D or is this an oversight :confused:?

[Dlatrex]

It's easy enough to say that cover saves apply to models obscured in relation to the firing weapon. This holds true for everything (even the subsequent arcs off the Tesla destructor) except in very specific cases which are stated explicitly: Barrage (cover determined from the center of blast), the Impaler cannon (cannot take cover unless in area terrain, or touching cover) and templates etc which ignore cover.



Another interesting point, I just read the rules and it doesn't mention line of sight anywhere, can the ray blast through any terrain :D or is this an oversight :confused:?

Hmmm. This takes the last point even further. While the Portal of Exile certainly talks about LOS, neither the Staff of the Destroyer nor the Deathray make any mention of it. Merely that a direction be declared. I think you may have something there!:eek:

[Tynskel]

twin-linked is re-roll to hit, except template weapons, which are re-roll to wound.

Unless stated otherwise, you re-roll the 'to hit' roll, in this case anything in regard to targeting.

[thecactusman17]

Most existing twin linked weapons that don't roll to hit instead roll to wound (example is the twin linked heavy flamer in space marine rhinos). That seems like a reasonable precedent for this weapon

[Dlatrex]

twin-linked is re-roll to hit, except template weapons, which are re-roll to wound.

Unless stated otherwise, you re-roll the 'to hit' roll, in this case anything in regard to targeting.

Had completely forgotten about TL flamers. Good call.

[Rapture]

The rules for the effects of twin-linked are (relatively) clear. I do not believe that anything like the death ray is covered in the rules. A weapon with a unique firing process that does not involve explained instances of benefiting from being twin-linked cannot be twin-linked. Either it gets FAQed or just fires as it normally would.

The night fighting question is more interesting. It would seem that, with the rules we have (and that I am aware of), night fighting has no effect on the death ray.

[Tynskel]

that is a little bit on the rubbish side. Twin-linked means re-roll to hit (or wound for template weapons). It is quite simple: Pick up ALL the dice, roll again.

[Rapture]

Twin-linked means re-roll to hit (or wound for template weapons [or re-roll of scatter dice for blasts]).
Regardless of anyone's opinion, this is the rule. Adding anything else is simply not playing by the rules as we have them. The death ray receives no benefit from being twin-linked.

[Tynskel]

you roll to hit with the Death Ray...
Twin-Linked allows you to re-roll the roll to hit...

Ergo...

[Col.Straken]

The death ray doesn't generate "automatic hits" just a number of hits equal to the number of model under the line. So any hits against the unit that has been target relayed will be re-rolled when rolling to hit.

[Nachodragon]

The Death Ray does automatically hit. It is a template style weapon. Same with the Staff of the Destroyer. You don't actually have to roll to hit, you still need to roll to wound though. You never say, I rolled 5 hits, now let me see how many hits they take. Nope.

I would say the Death Ray does not get any interaction with the Triarch Stalker as the Death ray is not shot AT anyone. Though, I guess it could be argued that you are not shooting a flamer AT a unit... potentially gets re-roll for wounds being that it is a template style weapon. It is just a line that is up to 12" from the scythe and 3D6 long. Anything underneath the line is hit.

Also, Twin linked does not mean you re-roll ALL of the dice. Per page 2 of the BRB

"This is exactly as it sounds- pick up the
dice you wish to re-roll and roll them again. The
second score counts, even if it means a worse
result than the first. and no single dice can be
re-rolled more than once regardless of the source
of the re-roll."

Per FAQ for Death Ray.
Q: If a death ray passes over 3 models out of 10 in a
unit, how many hits does that unit take? (p50)
A: 3.

[Tynskel]

the deathray has to target something, it is not like a template weapon with a predetermined hit. You re-roll the dice. Besides you re-roll all the dice with respect to the given shot: in this case the death ray isn't firing multiple shots (like a hv bolter) you are firing one shot that has a modifiable 'range'. If you re-roll, you gotta re-roll it all.

[Rapture]

The weapon does not roll to hit in a way where the twin-linked rule applies (or at all, really). Whether it hits automatically is irrelevant, the only question that matters is, "Does the death ray operate in a way the the twin-linked rule - as written, not as desired - will allow for a re-roll?"

Fortunately, the twin-linked rule is simple and offers examples/explanations for how it applies, so this question is very easily answered in the negative.

I don't see any actual arguments supporting any re-rolls for the death ray.

Edit:
There really shouldn't be a question here. Do the rules say the death ray gets a re-roll for twin-linked? They say that twin-linked weapons can re-roll to hit. They say that twin-linked blast weapons can re-roll the scatter dice. They say that twin-linked template weapons can re-roll to wound. They say nothing about any weapons that fires like the death ray. Any argument in favor of the death roll benefiting from twin-linked is completely groundless.

Unless someone has additional rules to add to the discussion...

Also, people seem to be caught up on the idea that the death ray does roll to hit. However, the death ray never selects a units, only a point. It always hits the target as that is where the line starts. The death ray fires at a point which it cannot miss, how can anyone reasonably argue that it has to roll to hit?

[Tynskel]

You roll dice to see what is hit!
Twin-linked allows you to re-roll.

If you note, you mention EVERY weapon in the game. I find this redonkulous that somehow excludes the death ray.

[isotope99]

I can see why people might want to apply the template rules to a line based weapon as the rule does generally seem to be targetted at weapons that don't roll to hit. I don't think it does without an FAQ extension but the argument is not unreasonable.

The more I read the death ray rules the more questions arise, does it have fire arcs or is it a 360 degree weapon? The model looks like the weapon is hull mounted (45degrees) but the rules imply total targeting freedom to fire in any direction.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2390160a_99120110023_Doomscythe06_873x627.jpg

[Nachodragon]

I think Tynskel might have multiple personalities. Because he seems to have forgotten his own post about reading rules. The rules for the weapon are pretty clear about how it works. So, i would suggest people read them and follow whatvthe rules state.

[Tynskel]

yeah, I read the rules-- I have the codex.. You hit by rolling dice! Twin-linked re-rolls to hit. Quite clear, here. Just pick up the dice and re-roll them. Quite simple.

Since you sniped at me first, allow me to retort:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=21435

The key step here is #1.

[Nachodragon]

Where does it say this rolls to hit. It does not. This is a line template weapon. It does not roll to hit, just like JAWS. You pick a point, and then another point 3D6 inches away, anything under the line is hit. How would you re-roll that?!?!?!?

[Tynskel]

simple--- you pick up the dice, and roll them again.

I don't know where you come up with the idea that it is a 'template' weapon. It doesn't follow any of the rules for template weapons.

[SeattleDV8]

The Death Ray does not roll to hit, it rolls 3D6" for the line that hits any models (friend or foe) that is under it.
One of the units under the line counts as targeted (in that the vehicles other weapons must fire at one of the units that are hit) but never actually targered.
Therefore you cannot re-roll the to hit roll as it never happened, you rolled for how long the line is.
It is not a Blast weapon and can't re-roll the scatter dice.
It is not a template weapon (though it does share some rules) and can't re-roll the to wound dice.
As it does not roll to hit,is not a blast or template weapon there are no rules that allow it a re-roll.
Reading fail Tynskel, no to hit = no re-roll

[Tynskel]

is it a weapon? Yes.
Are models hit? Yes.
Do you roll dice to determine who is hit? Yes.
You can re-roll.

I am not understanding why you are having so much trouble with this.
Here's some helpful advice:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.ne...ad.php?t=21435
The key step here is #1.

[Nachodragon]

Ok, read the rules and tell me where you roll to hit.

[Tynskel]

When you roll the line...
You cannot hit anything unless you roll the dice.

Crystal clear here.

[SeattleDV8]

Excuse me? How is rolling for the length of a line somehow a 'to hit ' roll?
Yes it is Crystal clear, it is NOT a 'to hit ' roll.
No way , no how.
Really, as you said, read the rules.

[addamsfamily36]

I think what tynskel is trying to get across is that the length of the line can vary how many hits are caused.

with normal shooting the amount of hits caused is determined by how many models you successfully hit, any failed rolls may be re-rolled due to the effects of twinlinked (if you have it)

The determining factor of hits for the ray is its distance dice roll. roll once you hit say 10 models. re-roll (due to twin linked) you now hit more say 15 or maybe less say 5.

I'm not saying i agree with this interpretation, but i think i sort of understand what Tynskel is saying.

[Tynskel]

I am glad at least someone understands what I am getting at.
The number of models 'hit' is determined by a roll of the dice, a 'to hit roll'.
Twin-Linked allows you to re-roll the to hit roll.


And it completely agrees with how the game is designed. The Doom Scythe receives specialized targeting data from the Triarch Stalker, allowing the necron pilot to accurately paint a path of the Death Ray.

[Rapture]

Blast weapons also have a non-'to hit' roll that can effect how many models are under the marker. The twin-linked rule specifically mentions this alternate firing methods and states that twin-linked applies to blast weapons and how it applies.

The death ray has unique rules that place it outside the standard rules for shooting. Just like blast weapons do not roll to hit in the typical way that a twin-linkable weapon does, the death ray also does not roll to hit.

"But that is just like a roll to hit" is, again, not a valid argument. The twin-linked rule is explicit and very easy to understand.

40k is played by allowing models to do what the rules say they can do. There is not a presumption of being able to benefit from twin-linked. The firing model must do so in a way that fits the structure of the rule.


I think what tynskel is trying to get across is that the length of the line can vary how many hits are caused.

The determining factor of hits for the ray is its distance dice roll. roll once you hit say 10 models. re-roll (due to twin linked) you now hit more say 15 or maybe less say 5.
All very obvious, but the twin-linked rule only applies where the rules say it applies.

[Tynskel]

Uniqueness does not override the 40k rule book. Specific wording overrides the 40k rule book. The Death Ray entry does not specifically state to ignore twin-linked. And, you a incorrect, blast weapons do have a 'to hit' roll. It is just different from your standard weapons. That's what I don't understand here: how could you say the blast weapon doesn't have a 'to hit' roll when you clearly roll dice to hit, that the OUTCOME of you DICE ROLL clearly changes the number of models hit!

The two linked rule does not state what weapons may use twin linked- by the way it is written, it applies to all weapons!!!! The blast weapon, a separate entry, just states what to do.

...

[Nachodragon]

Well, rolling a blast weapon and hitting one model constitutues hitting, so, if you hit one model with the death ray, according to your interpretation, you could not re-roll.

Also, the twin-linked rules tell you exactly what to do with specific weapon types. The only one it could be argued for would be a template weapon.

[Tynskel]

The weapon has a unique rolling mechanism (like the blast weapon), as the number of hits is dependent on length of line, not number of shots (which isn't unique, actually, multiple codexes have similar weapons, now). The only pertinent entry is the blast weapon entry, which has the player re-roll the entire set.

[Nachodragon]

To hit is to hit is to hit is to hit. You are making stuff up. If you hit one model you hit! Period, Exclamation, whatever. You can't re-roll to get a longer distance just because you want to hit more! That is not what twin-linking does. This is a 1 shot gun. If, for example, you chose a spot 12" away and rolled 3 1's and it did not hit anything, then your argument would potentially hold water. You are just using some words of rules and ignoring others.

Mr. Tynskel, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

:p

[Tynskel]

Bwahahahah!
Wow, 1 shot eh?
You make no sense:
Missile Launcher 1 shot
Lascannon 1 shot
Battle Cannon, 1 shot
Tesla rifle, 1 shot
Flamer 1 shot


Seriously dude. I could go on and on. All of the weapons can be 'twin-linked'.
You need to go back and read the rulebook again.
here's a hint:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=21435


Essentially, you are ignoring every fundamental in the rulebook to 'win' this argument.
1) All weapons can be twin-linked. There is no reason they cannot be without explicitly stating so.
2) The death ray does not explicitly state 'no twin-linked', which is required to overrule a Main Rulebook rule.
3) the 3 dice are all part of a single shot, therefore you would re-roll all 3 (there are rules precedents allllll over the place for this, both in FAQs and in explicit rules, eg blast weapons).

[Nachodragon]

When I say 1 shot, I mean Heavy 1. Missiles can also be Heavy 1, but if you miss then you can re-roll with twin linked, this is not in question. What I meant with 1 shot was the Tesla Destructor has 4 shots. I have to roll to hit. If I miss with one or all of those shots I can re-roll the misses. Since the Death Ray has 1 shot.. and it is a line that automatically hits what it crosses, there is no twin-linking for the Death Ray.

The question comes from WHERE ARE YOU MISSING TO HIT!!! The death ray makes a line and anything underneath is AUTOMATICALLY HIT!!!!! Where does the re-roll come from? You are applying rules to something that does not apply. This is not a blast weapon, does it say blast, large blast, or anything like that? NO. Again, if you were stating this were a template style weapon, the template being the line, then potentially a unit that was 'marked' could re-roll to wound. Otherwise, you have automatically hit the unit, therefore, you cannot re-roll as you have hit already and twin-linked only allows you to re-roll misses. Even if this was a blast, if you hit one model, you cannot re-roll as you hit the unit in question.

Please apply all of a rule to a given scenario, not just what you what to apply.

[Tynskel]

ah, but, the Missile can hit, and still re-roll--- you forgot, the missile launcher is ALWAYS Heavy 1. The models UNDERNEATH THE BLAST ARE AUTOMATICALLY HIT!
And, as I said before, the weapon style the Deathray has closely represents the blast rules. You would re-roll the entire thing, just like the blast, and you get the second results, even if it was worse than the first.

I am applying to all scenarios, I am accounting for all rules and situations! That's where you fail to apply the rules.

1) you say it can't be twin-linked---- there is no rule that says weapons cannot be twin-linked. There is only a rule that states weapons CAN be twin-linked.
2) there are rules for twin-linked weapons that automatically hit
3) there are rules for how to re-roll dice for mechanics that use multiple dice.
4) there IS a rule that EXPLICITLY states that all weapons are twin-linked
5) There is no rule in the Death Ray that explicitly states you cannot be twin-linked--- required for overriding the Main Rulebook

Please tell me the scenario I am missing here!

Considering my 'incoherent' argument covers everything, I think there might be an issue with your argument. Again, you are parsing words to 'win' an argument. But, even then, you are forgetting the most important rule! 4+ and I win, automatically, no matter what you say!

Bwhahahahahah!

[Nachodragon]

If you are re-rolling a blast that has hit the unit you are firing at, you are cheating, even if it only hit one of the models. You don't get to re-roll the scatter dice if you don't come up with a 'hit' on the scatter die. This is a different kind of hit, as you could still hit a model in the unit if it scatters 1". So, your argument is invalid. Also, closely resembling doesn't mean squat. A grenade closely resembles an apple, but it would not be good to eat a grenade.

With the missile example you have to roll to hit. The Death ray does not roll to hit. Where does your BS come in on the death ray? It does not. Any other rolls to hit are based on BS. Even with a blast weapon you subtract the BS from the scatter, if it does scatter. So, you need to subtract 4 from every line you make, or add to the line. Hmm, nope, that doesn't work, therefore; it does not 'resemble' a blast weapon. It more closely imitates a template weapon, yet, it is not a template weapon. See the difference? Template weapons don't use BS either, but guess what, they are defined in the BRB. The Death Ray is a completely different weapon that is not defined by preset rules.

"1) you say it can't be twin-linked---- there is no rule that says weapons cannot be twin-linked. There is only a rule that states weapons CAN be twin-linked." - I don't know what you mean buy this. The argument was never if the weapon counted as being twin-linked. It just does nothing for the weapon. Sort of like Heavy Gauss Cannons. If you roll a 6 you are already over any armor that would matter. So, the weapon has a rule that does nothing for it.

"2) there are rules for twin-linked weapons that automatically hit" - Yes, template weapons. You are not arguing this, again, your point is missed.

"3) there are rules for how to re-roll dice for mechanics that use multiple dice." - Yes, this does not apply to this situation. But, I agree if you could somehow re-roll a 3D6 roll, you would re-roll all dice, this was never in question. Point missed again.

"4) there IS a rule that EXPLICITLY states that all weapons are twin-linked" Yup, but it does nothing. See point 1, your point is missed again.

"5) There is no rule in the Death Ray that explicitly states you cannot be twin-linked--- required for overriding the Main Rulebook" - Actually, anything in Codex overrides BRB. It does not state that it needs to state explicitly it overrides something. There is a lot of inheritance in the codices so they don't have to spell out everything again. Twin-linked is in the BRB, sure, never in question, how do weapons get the TL? They get TL from the Targeting array, which happens to be in the Codex, not the BRB, so point... missed again.


Also, the 'incoherent' section was a quote from Billy Madison and I thought it was funny and applied nicely to this discussion.

[Rapture]

"1) All weapons can be twin-linked."

I agree. The death ray is twin-linked. Lets apply that rule and reap the benefits:

1) Does it roll to hit? The BRB give very clear example of the type of 'to hit' roll. A rapid fire, assault, or heavy weapon operates under this prong of the rule.

- After a few mere seconds of thought, anything other than a 'no' answer is intentionally obtuse.

2) Does it roll scatter dice as a blast weapon? Blast weapons can re-roll the scatter dice. A simple concept - for most people.

- No. Absolutely not.

3) Is it a template weapon? The rule allows these weapons to re-roll the 'to wound' dice.

- Well, do you use a template at any point? No. So definitely not.

:confused:Looks like that is the end of the twin-linked rule.:confused:

40k is permissive. Try to think of whatever clever (:rolleyes:) argument you can, the death ray receives no benefit from being twin-linked.


ah, but, the Missile can hit, and still re-roll--- you forgot, the missile launcher is ALWAYS Heavy 1. The models UNDERNEATH THE BLAST ARE AUTOMATICALLY HIT!
And, as I said before, the weapon style the Deathray has closely represents the blast rules. You would re-roll the entire thing, just like the blast, and you get the second results, even if it was worse than the first.

I am applying to all scenarios, I am accounting for all rules and situations! That's where you fail to apply the rules.

1) you say it can't be twin-linked---- there is no rule that says weapons cannot be twin-linked. There is only a rule that states weapons CAN be twin-linked.
2) there are rules for twin-linked weapons that automatically hit
3) there are rules for how to re-roll dice for mechanics that use multiple dice.
4) there IS a rule that EXPLICITLY states that all weapons are twin-linked
5) There is no rule in the Death Ray that explicitly states you cannot be twin-linked--- required for overriding the Main Rulebook

Bwhahahahahah!
Is something funny? The inability of certain people to grasp such a simple concept is not humorous, only sad. Even sadder are the attempts to twist the arguments.

Models underneath a blast marker are no more automatically hit than a model is where the opposing player rolls a '6' for a bolter shot. The dice determine what is hit. How you could suggest otherwise says something about your credibility.

Regarding the numbered rules that you made up to support your argument:
1) It can be twin-linked - just like a 'slow and purposeful' model can be relentless. Twin-linking the death ray does nothing.
2) True. Those rules are for template weapons - nothing else. This has been mentioned several times.
3) True. Those rules are for blast weapons - nothing else. This has been mentioned several times.
4) Yes. It does.
5) No there is not. But there is a firing mechanism that, as per the twin-linked rule, receives not possible benefit from the twin-linked rule. This has been mentioned several times.

The rules are permissive. Either play by them or make things up. But, do not claim to be doing the latter while actually doing the former.

[Tynskel]

Nope, you are mistaken by this 'permissive' bull.
Where does this state this? No where? Yup. So, I can flip it right back onto you for making stuff up.

The reality is that there ARE rules how to deal with non-standard weapons. And these rules offer solutions to issues that have been brought up. They are within the framework of the rules that the rulebook states (look at that wonderful 4+ rule). The fundamental principle is re-roll to hit. There is only one instance where you don't roll to hit, and that is templates, and you still get to re-roll. EVERYTHING else, pick up the dice, re-roll.

The method that you have stated do not solve the problem. You end up with something worse than you had before, a rule that is SUPPOSE to allow you to re-roll to hit–ie pick up dice, roll again–but somehow you have managed to prevent that. No, it is better to use the rules as THE guide.

The method I have shown you is quite simple. I get to the Answer in 2 Steps, whereas it takes you 5 steps to get there. Simple, My friendly behind.
1) Pick up the dice.
2) Roll them again.
This IS how Twin-Linked works at its fundamentals. As I said before, you guys are parsing words for NO REASON!

Woah! Completely within the design of the rules! Woo Hoo!

[Rapture]

Nope, you are mistaken by this 'permissive' bull.
Where does this state this? No where? Yup. So, I can flip it right back onto you for making stuff up.

Free Baneblades anyone?

The method that you have stated do not solve the problem.

There is no problem. The writer of the rule wrote the death ray right out of receiving any meaningful effect from the twin-linked rule. That is not a problem - it is a rule that you seem not to like for no reason.

The method I have shown you is quite simple. I get to the Answer in 2 Steps, whereas it takes you 5 steps to get there. Simple, My friendly behind.
1) Pick up the dice.
2) Roll them again.
This IS how Twin-Linked works at its fundamentals.
If I open my BRB to the twin-linked sections, I do not see what you have here anywhere. It is pure fiction crafted to support your argument. the rule applies to specific weapns in specific with specific effects.

Woah! Completely within the design of the rules! Woo Hoo!
Your design, perhaps.

See the red. It is not for your benefit, however. Just an effort to keep people from being misguided.

[Nachodragon]

Nope, you are mistaken by this 'permissive' bull.
Where does this state this? No where? Yup. So, I can flip it right back onto you for making stuff up.

The reality is that there ARE rules how to deal with non-standard weapons. And these rules offer solutions to issues that have been brought up. They are within the framework of the rules that the rulebook states (look at that wonderful 4+ rule). The fundamental principle is re-roll to hit.This was never under debate. You just don't actually roll to hit for the Death Ray. There is only one instance where you don't roll to hit, Blood Lance, JAWS and that is templates, and you still get to re-roll. EVERYTHING else, pick up the dice, re-roll.

The method that you have stated do not solve the problem. You end up with something worse than you had before, a rule that is SUPPOSE to allow you to re-roll to hit–ie pick up dice, roll again–but somehow you have managed to prevent that. No, it is better to use the rules as THE guide.

The method I have shown you is quite simple. I get to the Answer in 2 Steps, whereas it takes you 5 steps to get there. Simple, My friendly behind.
1) Pick up the MISSED dice. Breaking it down to the fundamental flaw of your argument. You are breaking your own made up rules here. If you would hit 1 model, you would not get to re-roll. The 3D6 rolled is not to hit, it is to determine the range of the weapon.
2) Roll them again.
This IS how Twin-Linked works at its fundamentals. As I said before, you guys are parsing words for NO REASON!

Woah! Completely within the design of the rules! Woo Hoo!
Added red to clarify the wrongness.

Also, I would like to see you have a rules debate where you do not have to resort to the roll-off. Many of the rules are clear enough to understand and this one is quite clear. The roll-off can be used for a lot of things but no one would ever paint an army and roll a die to see if they won or not and be done with it. They want to play with their little painted men. I used roll-offs if I can't quite measure something or have something that is on the line of being vague or not. NOT when there is perfectly valid rules for a given situation. If you are using roll-offs all the time, well, you are playing the wrong game.

[Tynskel]

Bwahaha, this one is quite clear!
Yeah, it is very simple, pick up dice, re-roll. The fact that you are ignoring every instance in the game that does re-rolls, is clear to me that you do not know how to play 40k.

nope. Sorry, your 'instance' is for a weapon that rolls 1 die to hit. The Deathray doesn't do that. As I said before, it is like the blast rules--- re-roll the whole batch.

Every single instance in the rulebook and every codex when twin-linked, you re-roll SOMETHING.

So, no matter how you try to convey that you cannot re-roll the Death Ray's to 'hit roll' you are NOT following the rules.



Bwahahahah! Tell me the last time you saw JAWS or Blood Lance twin-linked... Oh never? OH, so you are telling me that this is the FIRST time that this has become an issue? YUP. Okay, so NOW we look at all the rules, and WHOA! Everytime you are twin-linked you get to re-roll!!! WHOOAA! WHOA!!! Weapons that AUTOMATICALLY hit get a re-roll TOO? WHOAAAA!

[Rapture]

Troll.

[Tynskel]

no, you are the troll...

That's what's going on here.

You guys are ignoring EVERY instance that's available, just to say 'you are right'.
That's NOT how you play 40k.
Twin-linked conveys re-rolls no matter WHAT weapon it is. If you hit automatically, and you still involve dice to hit, you re-roll them all (ie blast weapons); if you hit automatically, and don't involve dice, you re-roll to wound! Whoa! I mean, seriously!!! Templates get a re-roll, even though they hit automatically!

SO, there is NO WAY that you can tell me that Death Rays don't get a re-roll when EVERY OTHER WEAPON IN THE GAME GETS A RE-ROLL!


The main rulebook covered every KNOWN situation at the time. So, it is QUITE CLEAR how to interpret this: Every weapon gets a re-roll No Matter what.



This is seriously how redonkulous you 'RAW' people are. GW goes, WHOA COOL rule. They don't go "WHOA COOL RULE, wait, I need to update the ENTIRE rulebook so people can play, because otherwise they won't know what to do..."

[Nachodragon]

Read the rules on heavy weapons on page 29. Then read the rules for Blast on page 30, paying attention to the Blast weapons and re-rolls. Now go to the section for Twin-linked on page 31. Now read the rules for the Death Ray.

I will save you some trouble.
Range: 12"(special) Str: 10 AP: 1 Type: Heavy 1

Notice here that you have only 1 shot, as it is a Heavy 1. The range is 12" (special) and in the rules for Death Ray it tells you how to determine the range, by rolling 3D6. There is no scatter dice. There is no targeting. There is no rolling to hit. Anything under the line is hit automatically. You are trying to pervert the rules to allow you to re-roll a short roll of distance. You cannot do this.

It is not like the blast rules, because for one, you don't roll to hit for blast. You roll a special scatter die and 2D6 for distance. This is clearly defined in the BRB as Blast and anything that is a blast weapon is labeled Blast. So, did your Codex have the words Blast next to the Type? Because if it did, I'm sorry, otherwise it is not a blast weapon and you cannot make it a blast weapon. It also doesn't say template under range, so, it is not a template. The Death Ray is a special gun with it's own special rules.

"The main rulebook covered every KNOWN situation at the time. So, it is QUITE CLEAR how to interpret this: Every weapon gets a re-roll No Matter what." The BRB was written years ago before anyone thought of the Death Ray

[Nachodragon]

This is seriously how redonkulous you 'RAW' people are. GW goes, WHOA COOL rule. They don't go "WHOA COOL RULE, wait, I need to update the ENTIRE rulebook so people can play, because otherwise they won't know what to do..."

What the ever-living Fu.. are you talking about? Yes, you need the entire rulebook to play, otherwise you are just playing with plastic little men. They have rules in the Codices that say.. look in the main book. So, yes, you need the ENTIRE rulebook.

When playing any other game do you just play with half the rules? No, you play with all of them. Most board games don't have that many. This is a complicated game and there are many rules. If they are too complicated or you just aren't bothered to read them all then you are playing the wrong game. Go play tic-tac-toe. I hear that can be pretty challenging.

[Tynskel]

Yeah, but the COdex comes out, and you don't see a Rulebook FAQ that comes out too.

No. Read the rules EVERY WEAPON gets a re-roll. Every. Single. One. The RANGE of the Death Ray is 12". The NUMBER of hits is the 3d6" that you rolllllllllll

now, pick those dice up and Re-Rollllll!


Every single weapon. You guys are nuts to think that the Death Ray doesn't get a re-roll.
I know, you guys discriminatory towards DeathRays. I am sorry, but move over, or that death ray will zap you.


You can't win this argument. Every time you say no, you have to parse the rules to do so. It is so blatantly against the rulebook I am starting to get sick!

It isn't hard. You pick up 3 dice and re-roll them again.

[Nachodragon]

What does the 12" (special) mean?

Also, I play necrons. I love the Death Ray. I am not going to cheat with it though.

We have already won, you just don't realize it yet. We are parsing the rules, you are, just like your last post... what happened to the (special) in the range? You just skimmed right over that.

Also, the number of hits is determined by what the line crosses, not the 3D6. So, if my opponent is stupid enough to line up his whole army in a nice little row I could hit WAY more than 3D6. though, you know this already as you wrote 3D6" yourself.. so, you really are just trolling.

[Tynskel]

Oh noes! The High Ground Argument!
You aren't cheating with it!

You are parsing the rules.
And AGAIN, I'll repeat:
EVERY WEAPON RE-ROLLS.


Bwahahaha!! I am trolling? Riggggghhhhtt... What are you even saying in your last statement? Uh, duh, it is a line that is determined by a rolllllllllllllllll of the diiiiiiiiiiccccceeeee. The number of hits is determined by the ROooollOOOllllll of the DiiiiicccCCCeeee. Oh my, Blast Templates are determined by the RooooolLLLLLllllllLLLlll of the DiiiiiiiicCCCcccCCCceee.
Roll The Dice.

Sorry, but you are breaking every rules precedent with Twin-Linked on this one.

Just pick up the dice, and roll again.

[Rapture]

Every single weapon, as allowed per the rules, [gets a re-roll from being twin-linked].

It is tiring to continue to correct your blatant bad faith attempts to manipulate the rules to meets the needs of your unsupportable view/interpretation/delusion.

The rules are clear and have been stated - repeatedly. You choose the ignore the arguments and label them negatively instead of addressing them. We have even been so nice as to address and shoot down your ramblings with honest rebuttals that cite, in this case, the only reasonable interpretations of the rules. The answer to this question is obvious to anyone with IQ over that of a dog. Troll.

I encourage you to actually read all of the relevant rules, think about how they apply, and then attempt, abandoning your preconceived notions about how you want the rules to work, to apply them to the death ray. It will be a futile attempt, but it might help you to understand. Good luck.

Edit:
Feel free to take the last rebuttal. If you manage to do more than practice obnoxious typing and restate your stunted opinion, I might even bother with a response. Otherwise, feel free to reaffirm the fact that you are being obnoxious and obtuse only for the sheer joy of it.

[Tynskel]

yeah.

You guys have disregarded all precedent within the rulebook. Then you parse apart individual rules for your own benefit within the argument.

However, You have yet to find proof that Twin-Linked does not offer a re-roll. Every single weapon gets a re-roll. Every Single one.

Try to find one that doesn't.

[Nachodragon]

Where does it say "Every single weapon gets a re-roll. Every Single one."? Cause, it is not in my rulebook. Is it in yours? Wow, you have the special rulebook. We have proved our point to the extreme, it is time you prove your point and stop trolling.

[Tynskel]

bwahahahahahah! You can't touch this!

Your logic won't work here.
Every single weapon gets a re-roll. Find another example! Find it! You won't! That's because Twin-Linked Grants re-rolls to every weapon!

[Nachodragon]

What twin linked actually says, is any weapon that is twin linked gets to re-roll any dice to hit if you miss. It also mentions "twin-linked template weapons". It notes twin-linked blast weapons as well.

For special types of weapons they spell out exactly what to do with twin-linked, a la template weapons and blast weapons. They made the Death Ray much later then the BRB and yes, they won't go back and errata the BRB when they release a new codex, but if they have a weapon that is strange and new they will spell out how it works in the codex.

What is the Death Ray? It is a Heavy 1 weapon. It's range is determined by a 3D6 line that can start anywhere within 12" of the unit. Anything underneath the line is automatically hit. There is no actual rolling to hit. The 3D6 is the RANGE!!! Not the to hit. Since you don't get to roll to hit (as they are automatically hit) you do not get a re-roll to hit (again, would be pointless). Also, this is not a template weapon, denoted by saying template. This is very absent in the description of Death Ray so, this does not get to re-roll wound rolls.

Also, the Vibro Cannon from Eldar is a good example of a weapon that would be affected by twin-linking. It actually states you need to roll to hit, and then you draw a line and anything underneath the line takes D6 hits. This entry states specifically it needs to hit. The Death Ray does NOT roll to hit.

[SeattleDV8]

It 'counts as' twinlinked it just doesn't have permission or a way to use it, as there is no to hit roll.
Blast and template weapons also don't roll to hit pg. 29
Instead of rolling to hit....pg. 30
When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit.... but both of them have specific rules telling us how they are treated when twin-linked, so we have permission to use the rule, which is different from the general rule.
This is lacking with the Death Ray.
There is no 'to hit' roll, it is not a blast or template so their rules can't be used.
You are lacking the rules to use it.
Without the rules to do so the twin-linking does nothing.

[Tynskel]

Nope!

That's not the way to win this. You are using your only piece of evidence, the item being argued over, as your evidence. That's circular reasoning if I have ever seen it.

Hhahahahhahaa--- you are trying to use blast weapon??? Gosh you guys are silly! Bwhahah! hhahah, you try to tell someone not re-roll their twin-linked blast weapon!

[Nachodragon]

Where did we say you could not re-roll a TL blast weapon?

The Death Ray is none of those types of weapons and also does not roll to hit, therefore; it does not re-roll to hit... cause it didn't roll to hit. So, yeah that is circular i guess... but correct. You can't re-do something you didn't do in the first place?

How do you roll to hit with the Death Ray? It can't be the 3D6 because that is the range. The is not a roll to hit roll. Read that on page 17 of the BRB. It also give what you need to roll to hit with a give BS. You roll 1 die for every shot you have... not 3D6. Template weapons and Blast weapons are covered under their specific entries for how they work. The Death Ray is NOT ANY OF THOSE! It draws a line and auto hits anything underneath. This is a special weapon. It is a one-off type of wargear. All of the rules are encompassed within its rules. Just like all the other special wargear that is different than anything else. It is explained in the wargear section of the codex entry.

[Rapture]

Leave the troll to his own devices. The arguments are in the thread and anyone who reads them will have no trouble figuring out the correct answer.

[Tynskel]

bwahahah!!

Like I said---- Every Single Weapon when twin-linked gets to re-roll.


You cannot find a single instance otherwise. As far as I can tell, you guys do not understand what 'rules precedent' means.



As I said before. At the most basic: Twin-Linked means re-roll to hit, whether that's a standard weapon or a weapon with special rules.


I still chuckle with your 'hv 1' argument. Every weapon has a type... and yet every weapons still gets a re-roll...


I love that you saw the Death Ray "doesn't" roll to hit... yet you are specifically told to roll 3d6 and draw a line dependent on what you rolled, and what is touching that line is hit. Derp de Derp. Did you roll some dice? Oh yeah, you did, and those dice are critical to what you hit? Oh my they are!

Re-roll them now!

[Nachodragon]

HOW DO YOU MISS THE AUTOMATIC HITS?!?!?! If I follow your retarded logic, I would still not get to re-roll as I DID NOT MISS!!!! WHAT IS YOUR ARGUMENT?!?!?! WHAT ARE YOU RE-ROLLING???? HOW CAN YOU BE THIS DENSE? I can only assume you are REALLY bored right now and that is why you are trolling. I do not understand how you are missing your own point.

YOU DO NOT GET TO RE-ROLL TO TRY AND GET ALL 6's!! Heavy 1 means you have 1 shot.. if any part of that line hits a unit it hits the unit... That is what I am trying to say. The to hit roll is made with the BS skill involved, unless otherwise noted by it's type, a la template weapons. You have 1 shot with the DR, it makes a line by rolling 3D6... this is not the to hit roll as everything under the line is automatically hit.

[Tynskel]

OMG Your logic means the Missile can re-roll! Oh NO!! My Missile Launcher Is a HV 1 weapon!

FLAWED!
ZING!

No, you re-roll the entire batch, just like that Magically Automatically Hitting Missile or the Magically Automatically hitting Template weapon!


Oh My!



You just don't get it. Every. Single. Weapon. Gets. A. Re-Roll.
You cannot name one that doesn't. Your logic here has failed.

[Rapture]

HOW DO YOU MISS THE AUTOMATIC HITS?!?!?! If I follow your retarded logic, I would still not get to re-roll as I DID NOT MISS!!!! WHAT IS YOUR ARGUMENT?!?!?! WHAT ARE YOU RE-ROLLING???? HOW CAN YOU BE THIS DENSE? I can only assume you are REALLY bored right now and that is why you are trolling. I do not understand how you are missing your own point.

YOU DO NOT GET TO RE-ROLL TO TRY AND GET ALL 6's!! Heavy 1 means you have 1 shot.. if any part of that line hits a unit it hits the unit... That is what I am trying to say. The to hit roll is made with the BS skill involved, unless otherwise noted by it's type, a la template weapons. You have 1 shot with the DR, it makes a line by rolling 3D6... this is not the to hit roll as everything under the line is automatically hit.

Not to mention the fact that the death ray does not select a target - only a location where it must begin (and therefore can never not hit its target). How he thinks that something that does not select a unit as a target can miss such a unit is beyond me, but I am really not surprised.

Don't bother with him.

[Nachodragon]

Yes, if you have a TL missile, it can re-roll to hit if it misses.

Re-read the twin-linked section, it says you re-roll the misses. It doesn't say grab all dice and roll all of them again regardless if they hit or not. Your reading comprehension is flawed.

[Nachodragon]

I shouldn't bother with him, but I am a little bored and I guess I am thinking if I hit him hard enough with a hammer he will either get it or shut up. :p

[Tynskel]

Nope. You are wrong. The missile launcher automatically hits! That's the flaw! How do you get a re-roll if it automatically hits!

That's the point I am bringing up.
Every
Single
Weapon
In
The
Game
When
Twin-Linked
Gets
A
Re-Roll.

You have yet to name a single other weapon that doesn't get the benefits of Twin-Linked.
That's because you cannot. Because the way the twin-linked rule works, everything gets a re-roll.

Even the weapons with a characteristic that allows them to automatically hit. There is no logic that you'll be able to come up with that would state the Death Ray does not get to re-roll the 3d6. The Death Ray rule doesn't not state ignore twin-linked, the ONLY thing that would override the Rulebook.

[Nachodragon]

How the frak does the missile launcher auto hit? I am talking about a single heavy 1 Krak Missile. I have to roll to hit, if I roll a 1, then I can re-roll. If I miss again then I am screwed for that missile. For Frag missile, if I roll the scatter die and I scatter off the intended target then I can re-roll because I did not hit the target unit.

The auto generating hits from the blast template are after the scatter die is rolled and this is not covered by the TL and this is talked about in the section for blast weapons.

Anyone can see you are an idiot and I am through with this discussion. Sorry to anyone reading this thread, I fed the troll to long.

[Tynskel]

uh, dummy, there's a Frag Missile. Blast weapons AUTOMATICALLY HIT, yet, when twin-linked they get a re-roll! Oh my your argument about heavy is mute! Because there's a special rule!! Oh my the Death Ray has special rules too!

However EVERY WEAPON GETS A RE-ROLL!

OH MY!

Name a Weapon! Name one! YOu cannot. Which means you are breaking every rules precedent. Nope. You cannot do that, not without justification. Your justification doesn't work, because dice were involved! The number of hits is dependent on 3d6". Just like a Blast Weapon! Oh and Blast weapons get twin-linked! Just Like EVERY OTHER WEAPON IN THE GAME!

[SeattleDV8]

Geez , really Tynskel?
The Frag missile (and all blast weapons) can re-roll because they have permission to, right there on page 30 and 31.
The Death Ray does not have that permission.
It does not have the rules that allow it to re-roll.

Quit being a silly troll, your opinion has no backing in the rules, learn to read and stop repeating the same crap over and over.
Really you have never stated a rule in this entire debate and have only repeated the same lame points over and over.
It isn't RAW and it doesn't make a lick of sense.

Play your silly house rules all you want, but stop pretending that it has any standing in the real rules.
You have proven again and again you have no understanding of basic game design and GW rules .
You just don't get it.

[addamsfamily36]

I wouldn't state that Tynskel's argument has no backing in the rules as such.

what we know:

-Twin linked = re-roll misses

-Can be applied to ranged weapons

-regular shooting is simple you re-roll those that miss

- flamers re-roll wounds

- blast weapons re roll the scatter

Now if a blast weapon scatters and hits, then argument a) is that you have hit at least a model and no re-roll. Argument b) is that you may have hit 1 but you could have hit 3 but the scatter caused you to miss. a re-roll could enable you to hit the original 3.

Argument b) has some support in the fact that say you shoot an assault cannon with 4 shots, you hit twice and miss twice. technically you have hit, but the re-roll enables you to try again on the misses, possibly increasing your hits to 4 or 3 or maybe you miss again and just get the 2. Which applying the same structure to a blast weapon would enable you to turn say 3 misses into a hit or no hit at all (depending on the re-roll result).

Apply this to the death-ray and it has similar synergies (range of the weapon increasing/decreasing the models hit or missed). Also if the death ray was too short and missed entirely, what then? it has missed, failed to hit by being too short. by the rules of twin linked you can re-roll to hit, in this case thats re-rolling the distance dice (as thats what determines your hit/hits) much like a scatter dice and 2d6 roll determines what you hit with blast weapons.

stating that twin linked can't be applied to the death ray and stating that blast weapons can because they have specific rules is a void argument seeing as "blast" is a universal term used across more than one codex, the death ray is a specific unique weapon that was released at a later date and is not shared across codex's. This doesn't mean it cannot be twin linked as the only requirement of twin linked weapons is that you are a) a ranged weapon and b) you re-roll misses.

thats my two cents on it.

not saying i'm right. not saying anyone is wrong either. But it's not a clear cut argument.

[Tynskel]

Well look see here!
Somebody is using their noodles!

Again, every weapon in the game gets a re-roll. Again, you have not pointed out a single weapon that does not get a re-roll. To tell me I have no legitimacy is a fallacy. Your argument is wasted on parsing up minor details: the interpretation you are using is the 'permission'. That is not the correct interpretation. The rule book clearly defines what twin-linked does, AND makes sure that ANY weapon that would not be able to receive a re-roll to be able to get one (ie blast and template addendum.). This argument is clearly in my favor.

The correct way to interpret rules is with parsimony. The minimalist approach. Considering the 'minimum' situation IS that ALL weapons BEFORE the Necrons Codex allowed twin-linked to re-roll, the MINIMUM situation is that this would be continued unless specifically stated not to. Considering the Necrons Codex does nothing to state no twin-linked, but instead does the opposite (grants twin-linked) the minimalist approach is to pick up the dice and roll them again.

[Rapture]

I wouldn't state that Tynskel's argument has no backing in the rules as such.

what we know:

-Twin linked = re-roll misses

-Can be applied to ranged weapons

-regular shooting is simple you re-roll those that miss

- flamers re-roll wounds

- blast weapons re roll the scatter

Now if a blast weapon scatters and hits, then argument a) is that you have hit at least a model and no re-roll. Argument b) is that you may have hit 1 but you could have hit 3 but the scatter caused you to miss. a re-roll could enable you to hit the original 3.

Argument b) has some support in the fact that say you shoot an assault cannon with 4 shots, you hit twice and miss twice. technically you have hit, but the re-roll enables you to try again on the misses, possibly increasing your hits to 4 or 3 or maybe you miss again and just get the 2. Which applying the same structure to a blast weapon would enable you to turn say 3 misses into a hit or no hit at all (depending on the re-roll result).

Apply this to the death-ray and it has similar synergies (range of the weapon increasing/decreasing the models hit or missed). Also if the death ray was too short and missed entirely, what then? it has missed, failed to hit by being too short. by the rules of twin linked you can re-roll to hit, in this case thats re-rolling the distance dice (as thats what determines your hit/hits) much like a scatter dice and 2d6 roll determines what you hit with blast weapons.

Misinformation.

stating that twin linked can't be applied to the death ray and stating that blast weapons can because they have specific rules is a void argument seeing as "blast" is a universal term used across more than one codex, the death ray is a specific unique weapon that was released at a later date and is not shared across codex's. This doesn't mean it cannot be twin linked as the only requirement of twin linked weapons is that you are a) a ranged weapon and b) you re-roll misses.

thats my two cents on it.

not saying i'm right. not saying anyone is wrong either. But it's not a clear cut argument.
But it is a clear argument. Every weapon can benefit from being twin-linked. The rules say how different types of weapons benefit. The death ray was written in a way that, even if it is twin-linked, there is no opportunity for any dice to be re-rolled as they do not fit the framework of the rules.

Relevant to this discussion, the BRB lays out (1) what twin-linked applies to and then (2) how it applies. The death ray is failed by the rules regarding (2). There is no legal way to apply twin-linked to rolling for the distance of a line created by a weapon that does not target units.

Also, you say that the death ray can miss - it cannot. Read the rule. It targets a point where the line must start. Because it must start on its only target, it cannot miss. Ever. It simply always hits its target. Always. No counter-argument is possible (unless the person is completely unreasonable or bordering on being legally retarded).

People can argue that it is similar to other forms of weapons that receive an actual benefit from being twin-linked, but any such comparison could not be less relevant. We are discussing the death ray and how the rules apply to it - not how rules apply to similar weapons. The death ray is so unique (as the rules for shooting are mostly overridden by its unique method of firing) that simply looking to its own rules is more than enough to easily disqualify any real benefit from the twin-linked USR. We must assume that the author of the necron codex was somewhat familiar with the rules in general. That author wrote the death ray outside of the benefits of twin-linked.

It is really a simple plug in test. Anyone who is arguing that the distance dice of the death ray can be re-rolled through the weapon being twin-linked is attempting to pile drive a square peg through a star shaped hole.

I can appreciate that you are trying to support the losing side, but in this case, it is the losing side for a good reason.

[Tynskel]

Nope, you are still missing the fundamental: ALL WEAPONS GET A RE-ROLL.

You cannot deny this!
even weapons that automatically hit get a re-roll!

Parsimony wins the day!

And boy, that's real rich, the author wrote the rules beyond the rulebook.

You guys are nuts! You pick up the 3d6, and you roll them again...

This last post was hilarious, there was nothing in there. Seriously, read the rules. Every weapon gets a re-roll, whether they automatically hit or not. That's what twin-linked does. so you now know what the author was thinking 'I will write a rule beyond the rules without explicitly stating it is beyond the rules and that will be so complicated that people will then spend so much time in the rulebook to justify not using the rule or wait I forgot what I did'.

Parsimony: simplest viewpoint-- all weapons receive a re-roll, whether they automatically hit or not.

[addamsfamily36]

But it is a clear argument. Every weapon can benefit from being twin-linked. The rules say how different types of weapons benefit. The death ray was written in a way that, even if it is twin-linked, there is no opportunity for any dice to be re-rolled as they do not fit the framework of the rules.

Relevant to this discussion, the BRB lays out (1) what twin-linked applies to and then (2) how it applies. The death ray is failed by the rules regarding (2). There is no legal way to apply twin-linked to rolling for the distance of a line created by a weapon that does not target units.

Also, you say that the death ray can miss - it cannot. Read the rule. It targets a point where the line must start. Because it must start on its only target, it cannot miss. Ever. It simply always hits its target. Always. No counter-argument is possible (unless the person is completely unreasonable or bordering on being legally retarded).

People can argue that it is similar to other forms of weapons that receive an actual benefit from being twin-linked, but any such comparison could not be less relevant. We are discussing the death ray and how the rules apply to it - not how rules apply to similar weapons. The death ray is so unique (as the rules for shooting are mostly overridden by its unique method of firing) that simply looking to its own rules is more than enough to easily disqualify any real benefit from the twin-linked USR. We must assume that the author of the necron codex was somewhat familiar with the rules in general. That author wrote the death ray outside of the benefits of twin-linked.

It is really a simple plug in test. Anyone who is arguing that the distance dice of the death ray can be re-rolled through the weapon being twin-linked is attempting to pile drive a square peg through a star shaped hole.

I can appreciate that you are trying to support the losing side, but in this case, it is the losing side for a good reason.

I support neither side in full, but i am seeing some failed arguments on the supposedly "winning" side and therefore give my reason for it not being a clear cut case. or a "simple plug in test" as you put it .

So on that matter:

The ray can miss. you pick a point and roll 3d6 if that distance is small then there is a chance that your shot was too short to clip any units therefore resulting in a miss . You have hit when you get hits from models underneath the line. anything else is a miss. there is a start and an end point and you can shoot anywhere between these points determined by the distance on dice rolled. These "points" on the table are not counted as you hitting. The distance and how many models underneath the line determines how many models are hit. if you miss, and you have twin linked your are allowed to re-roll to hit. the only way you can hit in this instance is to increase the length of the line, therefore in this instance you re-roll the distance of the line.

Twin linked is an applicable rule whereas "blast" is a given rule. "blast" rules specifically apply to blast weapons. twin linked has no such clause, especially now that the triarch stalker can "give" twin linked to weapons which normally would not have it. (it is an oversight by GW for sure)

I agree that if you hit, then you should not be able to re-roll the result in an attempt to gain more hits, but there is a chance you can miss and in that event and i am more inclined - as this discussion goes on - to favour a re-roll based on following sequence.

0- i roll to hit (which is done by a distance roll - a unique form of rolling to hit, but a roll to hit all the same)
1- i have missed (by rolling too less)
2 - triarch stalker hit that unit earlier i have the twin linked rule in effect
3 - check twin linked rule. you may re-roll failed misses
4- how do you 'hit' with the deathray? You hit by rolling a distance, that causes hits by those underneath its line.
5- i re-roll to hit (which is done by a distance roll) and my distance is greater and i get some hits.
6- i have now hit

and before anyone says "but thats no the definition of - to hit" , The world of 40k has Multiple ways of "to hit" scattering being one of them (as an example).

[Tynskel]

I don't agree with that. The weapons allow you to re-roll to hit to get MORE hits (or wounds). That's why blast weapons can re-roll, because scattering and still hitting doesn't mean you maximized hits. The point of the rule is to MAXIMIZE hits. You are doing what the others are doing. Coming up with the most complicated set of circumstances to use the rule the way you think it works.

Parsimony states:
Every weapon is granted a re-roll, whether you fire multiple shots, or have a scatter, or if you are a template, lascannon, missile, tesla coil. It doesn't matter. All weapons, under twin-linked are allowed the POTENTIAL to MAXIMIZE their hits.

That's the rule at its simplest form. All the other rules that have been added were to correct for situations where the initial rule doesn't apply (like automatic hits).

If you are dissatisfied with the first result, you pick up the 3d6, and roll them again. That's what the Targeting Arrayz is doinz. The computer gets to correctz for errorz.

[addamsfamily36]

I don't agree with that. The weapons allow you to re-roll to hit to get MORE hits (or wounds). That's why blast weapons can re-roll, because scattering and still hitting doesn't mean you maximized hits. The point of the rule is to MAXIMIZE hits. You are doing what the others are doing. Coming up with the most complicated set of circumstances to use the rule the way you think it works.

Parsimony states:
Every weapon is granted a re-roll, whether you fire multiple shots, or have a scatter, or if you are a template, lascannon, missile, tesla coil. It doesn't matter. All weapons, under twin-linked are allowed the POTENTIAL to MAXIMIZE their hits.

That's the rule at its simplest form. All the other rules that have been added were to correct for situations where the initial rule doesn't apply (like automatic hits).

If you are dissatisfied with the first result, you pick up the 3d6, and roll them again. That's what the Targeting Arrayz is doinz. The computer gets to correctz for errorz.

I am at work currently, so can't check specifics, but i thought that twinlinked specified "missed hits", if it does not then apologies and scrap the part of my post that says


I agree that if you hit, then you should not be able to re-roll the result in an attempt to gain more hits,

[Tynskel]

That's totally not what Twin-linked does.
Every weapon gets the chance to re-roll to gain more hits!

If you have the potential to roll 18" and hit something 18" away, then you 'missed'. Just like you fire the missile and scatter but hit a model, you have the potential to hit more. Just like the flamer has the potential to flame more. Twin-Linked grants a re-roll to EVERY weapon in the game, granting them the potential to hit more.

If you have bolter that fires one shot at 24", it only has the Potential to hit one model. if you miss, you get to re-roll, but if you hit, there is no need to re-roll, you cannot 'maximize' your hits beyond the maximum. The rule completely about the 'potential'.

Every weapon is granted a re-roll in twin-linked. The thread has YET to find a weapon that does not get a re-roll. Just pick up the 3d6 and re-roll!



This is what I mean by reading ALL the rules. An individual rule means nothing. It is how they fit together. That's why you guys cannot defeat this argument, because you are parsing the rules, and only picking the 'select' quote that helps your argument. Quotations are meaningless without the context. The context for twin-linked is that EVERY Weapon gains a re-roll. From that baseline, alone, parsimony steps in, and every weapon will CONTINUE to receive a re-roll unless EXPLICITLY overriding the main rulebook. The Death Ray NEVER explicitly overrides the rulebook.

[Nachodragon]

Re-rolls
In some situations the rules allow you a 're-roll' of
the dice. This is exactly as it sounds- pick up the
dice you wish to re-roll and roll them again. The
second score counts, even if it means a worse
result than the first. and no single dice can be
re-rolled more than once regardless of the source
of the re-roll. If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll. you
must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of
them. unless the rule granting you the re-roll
explicitly specifies otherwise.
This states how you re-roll and the limitations of re-rolls

Blast weapons and re-rolls
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit and
chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon, the player
must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.
You don't have to re-roll if you don't want, but if you do, you have to roll it all

TWIN·LINKED
Weapons are sometimes linked to fire together in order
to increase the chances of scoring a hit through the
crude expedient of blasting more shots at the target.

A set of twin-linked weapons count as a single weapon
of that type, but to represent their fusillade of fire you
may re-roll the dice to hit if you miss(including twin linked
blast weapons). In other words, twin-linked
weapons don't get more shots than normal ones, but
you get a better chance of hitting with them.
This says nothing about maximizing shots, only about what happens if a shot is missed

Twin-linked template weapons
Twin-linked template weapons are fired just like a
single weapon, but they can re-roll the dice to wound.
When fired against a vehicle you may re-roll the
armour penetration dice instead.
This is about template weapons and how it interacts with Twin Linked

Example: A Space Marine Land Raider is firing its twin linked
heavy bolters at an enemy_It gets three shots (as
heavy bolters are Heavy 3) and may re-roll any to hit
dice which don't score a 3 or higher (which is a hit for
a Space Marine's BS of 4) because the weapons are
twin-linked.

Death Ray
To fire the Death Ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere with in the weapon's range. Then nominate a second point within 3D6" of the first. Then draw a straight line between the two points. Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line. If the vehicle's other weaponry is fired in the same shooting phase, it must be fired at one of the units hit by the Death Ray.

Range: 12" (Special) Str: 10 AP: 1 Type: Heavy 1


Where in the rules does it state you can MAXIMIZE your hits? It does not, you can re-roll misses. The Death Ray does not target any unit at all. All it does is draw a line on the battlefield. Anything underneath is hit (and will potentially be vaporized). There is no missing of the Death Ray as it doesn't target anything. You are nominating points on the group.. so, unless you are too stupid to hit the group, you would never get a re-roll for this. Also, I state again, where does it state all weapons get a re-roll? It doesn't. It tells you the common weapons that interact with twin-linked. This happens to not be a common weapon. This may be the only one. But this does not fall within the restrictions of any rules for Twin Linked. It may get twin linked, but the Tesla Destructor is already Twin Linked so does nothing, and the Death Ray does not interact with Twin Linked as it does not target any unit at all.

[Rapture]

The ray can miss. you pick a point and roll 3d6 if that distance is small then there is a chance that your shot was too short to clip any units [therefore resulting in a miss] (This is not supported by any rules. Many would likely claim that common sense is the appropriate thing to apply in a situation as simple as this, but the specific details of the rules govern what the death ray targets, and therefore how it can 'hit.'). You have hit when you get hits from models underneath the line. anything else is a miss. there is a start and an end point and you can shoot anywhere between these points determined by the distance on dice rolled. These "points" on the table are not counted as you hitting.(Why? The codex says that the point is the target of the weapon. If the weapon hits its target, how can you reasonably argue that it has 'missed?') The distance and how many models underneath the line determines how many models are hit. if you miss, and you have twin linked your are allowed to re-roll to hit. the only way you can hit in this instance is to increase the length of the line, therefore in this instance you re-roll the distance of the line.

The weapon's target - as listed in the firing description laid out in the Necron codex - is the point where the player declares the line to be starting. This point is always hit. The weapon can be shot at any point. It can even be fired where there are no units within the potential range of the line. The ray might not hit any enemy units, but, by definition, the ray has has not missed its target.

[Tynskel]

Again you guys are parsing words!

All weapons get a re-roll to hit.
Every single one. If it isn't to hit, then it is to wound.

Every single weapon BENEFITS from Twin-Linked.
It is unprecedented to think otherwise.

Bwhahahahahahah! A rule doesn't have to state something to demonstrate what it is doing. Bwahahahahahha! Like I said, you haven't read the rulebook.
Just look at what happens when you re-roll to hit! Ohhhh my! You are maximizing hits!! BUT bbut but! The rule doesn't say that! Bwahahahah!

Just pick up the 3d6 and re-roll them.

[Nachodragon]

All of the information I posted was verbatim form the rulebook. Nothing parsed. Stop trolling. If you have something that you can prove in a mature manner please do. Otherwise you have proven that are are unable to come up with an intelligent response and are indeed just a troll.

[Rapture]

*Random nonsense ignoring logical arguments and making patently false generalizations*

*Obnoxious typing*

Bwwwahahwahahahahaha!!!

(Does fighting stupid with stupid help to kill a troll?)

[Nachodragon]

Eye for an eye leaves everyone blind. So.. stupid for stupid leaves everyone dumb?

Science has yet to come up with a sure fire way to combat stupid... other than fire. :D

[addamsfamily36]

well at the end of the day, tynskel can play it his way. i shall play it that you can re-roll the 3d6 if you miss by not hitting any models and everyone else can play it there way. That way everyone has fun.....just as long as we never play each other.. :D

[Naffanya]

you are right

[Tynskel]

All of the information I posted was verbatim form the rulebook. Nothing parsed. Stop trolling. If you have something that you can prove in a mature manner please do. Otherwise you have proven that are are unable to come up with an intelligent response and are indeed just a troll.

If you guys want to talk about stupidity, here we go!
There is a difference from quoting a rule(s) and demonstrating an understanding of them.

Every weapon gets a re-roll, whether it is to wound or to hit. Again, you guys have YET to find a weapon that does not re-roll.
You ROLL 3d6 to HIT with the Death Ray– oh but you say you don't! Hahahahahah! What's the result? Number of models hit is DEPENDENT on the length of the line! Bwahhahahahaha!

This is what's hilarious, all you guys are doing is parsing the words of the rules, you are not trying to look at what the rules DO. Twin-Linked, when you APPLY the rule, is MAXIMIZING hits (or wounds).

There is NOTHING in the Death Ray entry that negates Twin-Linked.

Just pick up the dice, and Roll them Again!

[Nachodragon]

We have never said that you don't pick up the dice to re-roll them, so you can stop telling us that. Also, no where does it say you maximize hits. It says you have a better chance to hit. When i keep talking about heavy 1 it means the death ray has 1 shot. Like a heavy bolter has 3. So if a heavy bolter misses two, you re-roll 2 of them, not the first, because it hit. The death ray hits if it hits ANYTHING as it has heavy 1, it has hit, there is no miss. It has frakking hit, so you cannot re-roll. Read what twin-linked actually does. Read what Death ray actually does. Now tell me if it interacts with twin-linked. It does not.

We have also shown a weapon that deos not get re-rolls, the death ray. There is always a first and guess what, this is the first then. Also, we have read the rules and are able to comprehend what they say. You are the one using differnet words and interrpreting the rules. No where does it say 'every weapon gets a re-roll' all the rule says it was happens to some of the common types of weapons. Currently, most of the weapons are these types, will they all be in the future, i don't know. But at least one, the death ray, does not get any benefit from twin-linked. If you want to look at other weapons that have a abilities that dont work look at the heavy gauss cannon like i mentioned before.

So, instead of acting like a 4 year old covering your ears going lalalalalalalalalalalala and ignoring what we are saying, support your argument with actual facts and examples. Not just conjecture.

[Tynskel]

No, and I am stating that EVERY WEAPON GETS A RE-ROLL!

So, your method is incorrect--- the Death Ray is akin to the Blast weapons, which change number of hits based upon the area of coverage. The Death Ray Rolls to hit, and the only way to change is to re-roll the dice.

Rulebook: Every Weapon Gets to re-roll to hit!
Flaw 1)
Your method CANNOT find a weapon in the game that does NOT gain a re-roll.
Codex: Does not explicitly state no re-roll to hit
Flaw 2)
Your method prevents re-rolls.

The codex does not explicitly override the rulebook. You are using conjecture and rules parsing to 'win' this argument.
However, the combined effect of the rules is that EVERY WEAPON GAINS A RE-ROLL whether it is to wound or to hit. The crucial defining step there is whether you AUTOMATICALLY HIT and the POTENTIAL to MAXIMIZE hits.


This IS the simplest form within the rules. Parsimony states that the simplest solution is the correct one, unless the solution does not explain the outcome.

The outcome is that EVERY WEAPON IN THE GAME GETS A RE-ROLL.
Your solution DEVIATES from this.
The correct solution is that 3d6" is the 'to hit' roll, because of the DEPENDENCY on the dice. You re-roll the 3d6". It is the simplest outcome.


Parsimony ALWAYS wins. It is the basis from which we define all systems.

[Nachodragon]

It is hard to gauge jsut how incredibly wrong you actually are. I have to say on a scale of 1-10, um, probably 12.


No, and I am stating that EVERY WEAPON GETS A RE-ROLL!

So, your method is incorrect--- the Death Ray is akin to the Blast weapons The Death Ray is not a blast weapon. No where does it say blast, or large blast. You are adding extra rules to something that has its rules clearly spelled out. , which change number of hits based upon the area of coverage. Yes, the hits can potentially change on the length of the line, this has nothing to do with twin linking though. The Death ray does not roll to hit, show me where it actually rolls to hit. Because the three methods to hit are rolling dice based on BS, rolling a scatter die and 2D6, or having a template weapon (which doesn't roll to hit but is defined separately). The Death Ray has none of those. Therefore; it is a completely new weapon that is outside of those rules. The Death Ray Rolls to hit, and the only way to change is to re-roll the dice.

Rulebook: Every Weapon Gets to re-roll to hit! Where does it state this? No where in the book does it state that all weapons get a re-roll. No where. This is YOUR biggest flaw in reading the rules. This is not spelled out anywhere. What is defined in the rules is how different types of weapons interact with twin-linked. The basis of twin-linked is anything that rolls to hit can re-roll that hit if it misses. It does not say anything about maximizing the hits. No where.
Flaw 1)
Your method CANNOT find a weapon in the game that does NOT gain a re-roll. The Death Ray, I don't need to find another as this is potentially the only one. Will there be more.. I don't know, we shall see.
Codex: Does not explicitly state no re-roll to hit It also doesn't state it gets re-rolls. It also doesn't state how it hits, so how would you be able to re-roll the hit when it doesn't actually hit. The 3D6 is the distance, nothing more.
Flaw 2)
Your method prevents re-rolls. My method.. which is dumb, cause it is the way it works, does not prevent re-rolls for anything but the Death Ray, because it does not actually roll to hit.

The codex does not explicitly override the rulebook. You are using conjecture and rules parsing to 'win' this argument.
However, the combined effect of the rules is that EVERY WEAPON GAINS A RE-ROLL whether it is to wound or to hit. The crucial defining step there is whether you AUTOMATICALLY HIT and the POTENTIAL to MAXIMIZE hits. You are adding an idea to the rules that is not supported by the rules as written or by the Errata/FAQ.


This IS the simplest form within the rules. Parsimony states that the simplest solution is the correct one, unless the solution does not explain the outcome. You like pointing out that this game is not permissive because it doesn't say it is permissive, well, where does it state it is based on Parsimony? It does not state that. They give a way to continue a game if there is a rules question in the middle of a game. this prevents hours of discussion for something and the potential to play more games. It does not state use the simplest form of the rule you can think of.

The outcome is that EVERY WEAPON IN THE GAME GETS A RE-ROLL.
Your solution DEVIATES from this.Flawed logic again, the only way to read it is the correct way and not add extra ideas that are not stated.
The correct solution is that 3d6" is the 'to hit' roll, because of the DEPENDENCY on the dice. You re-roll the 3d6". It is the simplest outcome. Flawed logic


Parsimony ALWAYS wins. It is the basis from which we define all systems.Flawed logic. There is always something different. Occam's Razor does not always win, it just allows for outrageous ideas to be potentially understood when the understanding is complex

[Tynskel]

Bwahahahah! Nothing to do with Twin-Linked? Bwahahahah? I think you never have played 40k, because you would know what twin-linked does if you did: it maximizes your potential hits (or wounds).

bwhaahahah! You are talking about flawed logic? Your one 'example' is the one we are arguing over. That's circular!

bwahahaha, you clearly don't understand Occam's Razor. The point is that simplest solutions are what work. You have NO evidence to contradict that every weapon gets a re-roll. The point of Occam's Razor is to not propose redonkulous ideas. You are proposing an idea that completely contradicts the precedents of the rulebook!

EVERY WEAPON GETS A RE-ROLL.
The simplest thing to do is: Pick up the 3d6, and re-roll them. Your 40k steps to refusing the Re-roll is not simple, but pointless, baseless, and without precedent.


gosh, I mean really. You have to make soooo many assumptions to PREVENT the death ray from gaining a re-roll. step one: is it a weapon, yes. oh gosh, failed there already. step two does it roll to hit: yes, ooopps failed there too! Does the game allow re-rolling of dice: yes oh my, failed again. Is there another weapon that does not re-roll, nope-- failed yet again! Seriously, you have to pull some wonky stuff to get the deathray to not re-roll.

[Nachodragon]

Please follow your own advice. Nothing you are positing is actually in the rules. You are adding additional context to the rules.

Step 1:
(this one is hard)
READ THE RULES!

Step 2:
READ THE FAQs

[Tynskel]

Please follow your own advice. Nothing you are positing is actually in the rules. You are adding additional context to the rules.

Step 1:
(this one is hard)
READ THE RULES!

Step 2:
READ THE FAQs

You need to read the rules. You clearly don't have an understanding...
here lemmy give you an example:
Find a weapon that does not get twin-linked (and won't be circular to this argument).

[Rapture]

+1

Don't feed the troll.

For anyone who may be reading this thread,

step two does it roll to hit: yes
that is either a blatant lie or just patently stupidity.

[Nachodragon]

Here is the rule for you to be able to read again. I have read the rule. Many times.

TWIN-LINKED
Weapons are sometimes linked to fire together in order
to increase the chances of scoring a hit through the
crude expedient of blasting more shots at the target.

A set of twin-linked weapons count as a single weapon
of that type, but to represent their fusillade of fire you
may re-roll the dice to hit if you miss(including twin linked
blast weapons). In other words, twin-linked
weapons don't get more shots than normal ones, but
you get a better chance of hitting with them.

Twin-linked template weapons
Twin-linked template weapons are fired just like a
single weapon, but they can re-roll the dice to wound.
When fired against a vehicle you may re-roll the
armour penetration dice instead.


Please point out where is says all weapons get a re-roll. Please point out where is says you maximize hits.
This is more important than finding a weapon that does not interact with Twin-Linked, because Death Ray does not have the necessary requirements for Twin-Linked to work. This is not a circular argument. This is proving the argument.

BUT, show me those two points above, all weapons get a re-roll, and maximizing hits.

Now, here is the bonus, how does Death Ray roll to hit? Hint, it is not the 3D6 which is part of the Range. Your argument for 3D6 is akin to saying a bolter misses because the enemy is 25" away, so I should be able to roll the dice again.

[Nachodragon]

+1

Don't feed the troll.

I can refute his argument all day. I don't have much else to do. If he wants to continue to show he has a complete lack of understanding of ... well, simple logic and comprehension, I will be more than happy to help him achieve this.

Though, it would be nice if this thread got locked so I didn't have to keep telling this child he is wrong. Or if he got banned... trying to think when I have seen a valid post from him that was not condescending or immature.


For anyone who may be reading this thread,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tynskel View Post
step two does it roll to hit: yes
that is either a blatant lie or just patently stupidity.

He must be in 1st grade or something, where he can understand some words but can't quite read a book without pop up pictures.

[Tynskel]

but you haven't.

You have yet to show a weapon that doesn't re-roll to hit! Because you can't! bwahahahahah! That's what you don't understand, you have lost. EVERY WEAPON GETS A RE-ROLL.

Bwahahahahahahahh! Oh my. You are getting desperate here. Here let me help you: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=maximize&l=1

[SeattleDV8]

Any weapon can be twin-linked, not all of them can use the rule.
That happens quite often in GW rules.
Like the SW HQ choice that has Rending but no way to use it.
To make the Death Ray able to have used Twin-Linked you had to add a rule.
That being the distance roll counts as the to hit roll.
The death ray does not have permission to do that.
Also you don't 'get' Occams razor either.
"The principle is often incorrectly summarized as "other things being equal, a simpler explanation is better than a more complex one.""

[Rapture]

The blatant nature of the nonsense is making it difficult for me to pull myself away as well.

[Tynskel]

+1

Don't feed the troll.

For anyone who may be reading this thread,

that is either a blatant lie or just patently stupidity.

Yes it does roll to hit. Can you fire the weapon without roll the dice? No. Is there a functional DEPENDENCY inherent within the rule here: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=functional+dependency&l=1

[Jwolf]

Okay, this is silly. Death Ray gains no benefit from twin-linked as it doesn't roll to hit in the first place, so there is nothing to reroll.

Tynskel is acting badly here, but I blame it on the box of Moon Pies he was last seen eating while watching reruns of "Doogie Howser" at the VFW lodge.

[Tynskel]

Parsimony Wins Again!

[Rapture]

EVERY WEAPON GETS A RE-ROLL.
The death ray does get a re-roll - it just never has the opportunity to use it. There is nothing wrong with that. There is no rule that says that there are no exceptions to the rules.

[Tynskel]

Okay, this is silly. Death Ray gains no benefit from twin-linked as it doesn't roll to hit in the first place, so there is nothing to reroll.

Tynskel is acting badly here, but I blame it on the box of Moon Pies he was last seen eating while watching reruns of "Doogie Howser" at the VFW lodge.

you need to click on my functional dependency link...