Why I hope FW don't do a Horus Heresy series

[eldargal]

If you read here (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=22343) you will see that we are rumoured to be getting a Horus Heresy series of books from FW in the now too distant future.

I hate this idea. So much. For two primary reasons:

1) We have a series of admitedly excellent Black Library series that cover the Horus Heresy and makes up a fair proportion of BLs output. This has also demystified what was a very fascinating, barely understood period in the Imperiums history. Whether you consider this demystification good or bad is up to you, personally I think it is a bit of a shame. But do we really need another wing of GW devoting much of its resources to the HH?

2) We have the Imperial Armour series already, itgoes like this:
IA1-2: Apocalypse units, mostly SM/IG
IA3: Marines & Guard vs Tau
IA4: Marines & Guard vs Tyranids
IA5: Marines & Guard vs Marines & Guard
IA6: Marines & Guard vs Marines & Guard
IA7: Marines & Guard vs Marines & Guard
IA8: Marines & Guard vs Orks
IA9: Marines (& Guard?) vs Marines
IA10: Marines (& Guard?) vs Marines
IA11: Marines & Guard vs Eldar
IA12: Marines & Guard vs Necrons

You see the pattern emerging?:rolleyes: Now on top of that we are going to have a series of books as follows:

HH1: Marines & Guard vs Marines & Guard
HH2: Marines & Guard vs Marines & Guard
HH3: Marines & Guard vs Marines & Guard
HH4: Marines & Guard vs Marines & Guard
etc.

Now unless FW double their staff or something there will by necessity be a slow down of non Marine & Guard releases. Even if IA starts including more Xenos forces or even Xenos vs Xenos (which FW have said they will never do) this means that a good half of the 40k playerbase (Xenos players) will be even more neglected than they are now. I mean there are more entries in the SM Dreadnought section alone than in the ENTIRE Eldar section as it is.

I understand why people want them to do a HH series, I understand why FW would want too both because they are interested and because it will sell. But I still don't think it will be a healthy thing for FW or the hobby in general to be inundated with even more Marine releases. Even if Marine models sell well, it is still catering to only half the playerbase at most. I can't see how this will be healthy when between GW and FW the Marine range already outnumbers the entire combined Xenos ranges several times over.

These are my opinions, I expect many will disagree with them. I'd love to hear why you think this would be a good thing for the hobby overall. Just keep things polite, we don't even know for sure it will happen.:)

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

I would see the Horus Heresy not seeing 'too much' more in the way of marines... By this I mean they are likely to expand a little on the armour patterns and tanks + more character, but other than that you could suggest alot of the older stuff is already being made :).

I'd imagine that they would look more at the Xeno's and Chaos side of things... But I dunno, that's just a perception of mine, seeing as the purging of the Xeno's makes up a fundamental part of the great crusades.. Megarachnid models would cool :D

I'd actually like more stuff like the Black Crusades from Forge World :)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I can see your point, constant Marine releases can be a pest...
I always look forward to seeing the Xeno forces with each IA release.
However, the Imperium is much more numerous and far reaching than any other faction in the galaxy. So they are countering all the threats.

[Psychosplodge]

Would FW release something that is essentially in direct competition to the core game?

I know if I still actually played as opposed to paint/collect/live in the fiction, I'd be tempted to go down the HH route as opposed to the 40k one...

[SotonShades]

To be honest I highly doubt they will. At the open day I asked the question (at the behest of several BoLSers I believe) and they catagorically stated that they had no plans to do Horus Heresy from a modelling side and really really didn't want to write rules for it because Heresy Era armies would not balance with 40k era armies. Similarly they also said they wouldn't make Primarch models, other than possibly maybe, some day in the far far future, potentially doing a set of busts (similar to ones they have done in the past) but it was unlikely because those kinds of pieces don't really sell too well. Same reason they had to pull a lot of their scenery pieces (particularly the foam bits).

Admittedly it has been a good few months since the Open Day, and we have seen GW and subsiduries make U-turns before, but this sounds like just too big of a U-turn. Especially considering their promises to get to the other races not yet covered by IA (So Necrons, Tzeentch, Dark Eldar and Slaanesh) and then starting the loop again, particularly with strong ideas for Orks, so doing a very different order.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Especially considering their promises to get to the other races not yet covered by IA (So Necrons, Tzeentch, Dark Eldar and Slaanesh) and then starting the loop again, particularly with strong ideas for Orks, so doing a very different order.

You called?

[isotope99]

I don't see the need for Heresy era books. As stated, the fluff has been covered pretty thoroughly by black library (which I am generally positive about as they have done a decent job of it on balance).

I would on the other hand like to see a continuation of releasing the old style armour and vehicles, particularly the iconic pre-heresy terminator styles as these are popular and useful. Branching out into heresy style chaos armour might be fun too.

I have no problem with every FW book including Imperial elements (marines/guard) as they are the biggest sellers and a xenos-xenos book is probably a pipe dream, but think they should stick to Xenos opponents to mix things up. The recent eldar releases have been nicely done and some proper attention for DE and Necrons would be good.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

It is called IMPERIAL Armour after all. :D

[westside]

I think it would be great if FW did Horus Heresy, here is why:

1) FW tends to kick it old school, they know, enjoy, and respect the fluff (unlike some current studio efforts)

2) Plenty of Xenos in the Heresy, and doing the proper Xenos thing too, getting exterminated by the Imperium (but, hey might mean lots of cool Xenos models, right?).

3) Dang near everything about it, a potential awesome, well cast FW model: Horus, the Primarchs, dark age of tech, flying rhinos, Sisters of Silence, Custodies, Xenos scum, Heritic non compliance humans.

Bring it on FW

[Col.Gravis]

3) Dang near everything about it, a potential awesome, well cast FW model: Horus, the Primarchs, dark age of tech, flying rhinos, Sisters of Silence, Custodies, Xenos scum, Heritic non compliance humans.

Bring it on FW

Quoted for truth, there are already plenty of third party options for some of these, but I'd love to see what FW would do with these concepts. Hell, even if it was a return to the display type models with busts etc of significant figures.

[eldargal]

There is no doubt that FW could make a lot of beautiful stuff, but one of the problem is how it relates back to the main game. Horus, the Emperor, the other Primarchs, Sisters of Silence and Custodes will all be useless for regular 40k. They either don't exist anymore (SoS, Primarchs) or don't fulfill battlefield roles (Custodes). Not to mention a Primarch would be obscenely powerful, basically a Reaver titan on a small base something that has no answer for any other race. So you either end up with what would effectively be a new game system (30k) or you introduce a real mess into 40k.

Also, not a huge amount of Xenos in the Heresy, Fulgrim had a lot of run ins with the Eldar but that was prior to the start of the first book in the series, which is the pyrrhic victory on Isstvan III.

[DrLove42]

Im kn your boat here, less marines and more xenos is good and it really would mess up the game

But its understandable they consider it. After all every Q&A session without fail FW gets the same 3 questions:
-are you going to do Ad Mech?
- are you going to do pre heresy
and Are you going to make Primarches

So it would sell. And hell i'd even do it just to stop people asking those damn questions

Also annoys me on the level of what i want. Marines get new stuff EVERY book (some more than others). Tjey grt conversion kits and bits constantly. Xenos get nothing between launches. Eldar just got a book and models. BRILLIANT. But they wont get anything now umtil their next book in 10 years time

[crazyredpraetorian]

I just want an opened top Rhino for the Space Wolves! And for GW to recognize the Praetorians again! That's all......and 1 billion dolars........and world peace. That's not to much to ask for is it?:D

[Wildeybeast]

I think it will be bad thing. I agree with all the points made so far and I'd like to add that I think it would have a serious impact on the range they already do. Unless they are hiring more staff, they risk taking on too many projects and other suffering. As EG has mentioned, I don't see this working with 40k so they will need a new ruleset or loads of models to let you play with 40k rules but using only 30k models. How are they going to continue supporting 40K with this competing for resources and customers? What they should do is look at well Warhammer Forge is running and adopt that model for their 40k releases, supporting a variety of armies, rather than just churning out more Imperial stuff.

[Gotthammer]

It is called IMPERIAL Armour after all. :D

I still say they should have called IA:8 Armour of Gork (or possibly Mork) vol 1.


I love the IA series, but it does feel like they sometimes just stick marines in there because they have to, not because it makes any sense in the context of the story (IA3, 4 & 11 especially). Hell, I'm a Marine player and I'm sick of seeing them!

Don't really see what a Horus Heresy series could add that they couldn't quasi-do anyway. They've added Contemptor Dreads, Rapiers, Graviton Guns, Conversion Beamers, Land Raider varients etc... aside from new scuplts (which are independent as shown by the new termies) the background is handled perfectly well by Black Library.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I still say they should have called IA:8 Armour of Gork (or possibly Mork) vol 1.

Looted books for the win! :D

[Denzark]

There is no doubt that FW could make a lot of beautiful stuff, but one of the problem is how it relates back to the main game. Horus, the Emperor, the other Primarchs, Sisters of Silence and Custodes will all be useless for regular 40k. They either don't exist anymore (SoS, Primarchs) or don't fulfill battlefield roles (Custodes). Not to mention a Primarch would be obscenely powerful, basically a Reaver titan on a small base something that has no answer for any other race. So you either end up with what would effectively be a new game system (30k) or you introduce a real mess into 40k.

Also, not a huge amount of Xenos in the Heresy, Fulgrim had a lot of run ins with the Eldar but that was prior to the start of the first book in the series, which is the pyrrhic victory on Isstvan III.

Arguably you could go back through many codexes/IA and find characters who aren't in play anymore at the last known date in the canon (most of them IG I expect). It doesn't make them any less interesting on the table.

As to a Primarch the only official rules are for Angron as Daemon Prince. 500pts, not Reaver hard, and I don't think unbalanced.

[Wildeybeast]

Arguably you could go back through many codexes/IA and find characters who aren't in play anymore at the last known date in the canon (most of them IG I expect). It doesn't make them any less interesting on the table.

As to a Primarch the only official rules are for Angron as Daemon Prince. 500pts, not Reaver hard, and I don't think unbalanced.

Another issue is that beyond the likes of the Primarchs, you aren't going to get many characters from the books in the game as BL doesn't like it's chracters appearing in the game. So the likes of Loken, Tarvitz, Garro et al are unlikely to be made into playable characters which I imagine would be one of the things people would most want if FW were to do Heresy stuff.

[Renegade]

Didn't a Ork war boss have the Emperor down briefly?

Huge Orks, Laer and a whole load of other nasties... sounds good to me. It also mean Dark Mechanicum and more love for Chaos. The tourney scene would no doubt love it.

[Wildeybeast]

Didn't a Ork war boss have the Emperor down briefly?

Huge Orks, Laer and a whole load of other nasties... sounds good to me. It also mean Dark Mechanicum and more love for Chaos. The tourney scene would no doubt love it.

Given that Mechanicum has been one of the most requested things for them to do for quite some time and they have as yet to produce so much as single thing for it, I really wouldn't get your hopes for anything Dark Mechanicum, even if they do produce a Heresy series. Expect Marines on Marines action to be the main focus.

[eldargal]

The only character from outside M41 that i'm aware of was Lord Macharius in the 3rd or 4th ed IG codex. Even those characters that are deceased (Captain Tycho, Eldrad Ulthran, Nork Deddog) are still within the confines of the setting. The Emperor and Primarchs are not, they belong to the mythologised history of the setting.

Arguably you could go back through many codexes/IA and find characters who aren't in play anymore at the last known date in the canon (most of them IG I expect). It doesn't make them any less interesting on the table.

As to a Primarch the only official rules are for Angron as Daemon Prince. 500pts, not Reaver hard, and I don't think unbalanced.

Let's say FW decide to take on a few more staff to do it (they did with Warhammer Forge afterall) then why not have a sculptor or two focus on Xenos? I mean they have a chap there solely for terrain, there is at least one person (Edgar Skomowski) who is WarForge exclusive. Give us Xenos players something.:(

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Have a hug, eldargal. :(

[eldargal]

I'd rather have a Xenos release from FW, but i'll take what I can get.


I'm not actually complaining about what FW do now, just to clarify. IAs cycling through Xenos/Chaos as the antagonists is fine. It at least means Xenos are getting a decent % of FWs attention, now that they have the Badab War out of their system. What bugs me is that if they start a ssecond range of basically Imperium exclusive books xenos will go from being a secondary focus to almost an afterthought.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

It's a good point. As mainly a Necron and Marine player I am in quite a content position as I'm waiting for IA12. Hopefully FW will release new C'tan shards and Lord/Cryptek models.
Unfortunately, my Storm Wardens will only ever be loved by generic kits. :(

The potential Eldar player in me is rather happy with the contents of IA11, but I could do with more. A new codex would be excellent.

[inquisitorsog]

Maybe while they're doing an HH series, they could tell us what book the rules are in for a given model on that model's web page.

Seriously though, EldarGal brings on a great point... we're drowning in Imperial models.

OTOH, if Imperial models sell so well, maybe that just means the fluff is wrong. Maybe it does mean Heresy (or even Apostasy) would be a better setting for selling models and representing the background on the table than 40k.

[Psychosplodge]

I'm not really familiar with the contents of the IA books, but have they never done anything to support the elder range? I mean at one point they seemed to have a fair few elder vehicles and flyers available...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

They have released the Avatar and the Shadow Spectres, then there are Corsairs...

[Psychosplodge]

I meant background books wise

[Denzark]

The only character from outside M41 that i'm aware of was Lord Macharius in the 3rd or 4th ed IG codex. Even those characters that are deceased (Captain Tycho, Eldrad Ulthran, Nork Deddog) are still within the confines of the setting. The Emperor and Primarchs are not, they belong to the mythologised history of the setting.


Let's say FW decide to take on a few more staff to do it (they did with Warhammer Forge afterall) then why not have a sculptor or two focus on Xenos? I mean they have a chap there solely for terrain, there is at least one person (Edgar Skomowski) who is WarForge exclusive. Give us Xenos players something.:(

I can't see the difference between the dead of say 1-500 years of the 41st Millenium (I assume they're not all alive within 30odd years of each other) and the long dead of the entire canon. After all Abaddon, Fabius, Cypher, Ahriman, Bjorn (etc etc) would remember...

And anyway to a xenos heretic-witch eldar maybe the primarchs are mythological but try telling that to any SM Chaplain without eating hand flamer.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I meant background books wise

Resurrecting a dead aspect shrine was good, Imperial Armour 11 told us about the Doom of a Craftworld (Mymeara), and I think there was another story involving Eldar.

[MarneusCalgar]

Well, Eldargal, just understand that the most selling armies from GW are the marine ones... because of their highly easy converting, their adaptability for being either any of the Chapters...

That´s why they mainly do marines

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Not meaning to speak for the lady, but I think she gets it.

[Vaktathi]

I find myself agreeing largely with Eldargal in that a HH series would, as a whole, be rather boring in terms of gameplay. We get Marines vs Marines enough in normal play, we don't need the game to be built specifically around it.

EDIT: Case in point, new FW newsletter announcing...yet another Space Marine set, this time with roman centurion looking stuff slapped on, and some brass etch for some minor irrelevant chapter. Zero interest, can't even bring myself to admire the sculpting work anymore, email deleted.

The demystification also is a big thing, and I've stopped reading the HH series as a result (well...partially, the non-stop ALL MARINES ALL THE TIME and the marines all being ridiculously overdone in powerlevel and largely boring as characters hasn't helped). It really took a lot of what made the Horus Heresy interesting and just made it too...obvious.



If FW or GW really wanted to do a Horus Heresy thing, I'd say just make it a whole new game designed around Space Marines fighting Space Marines, when they've all got the same stats and weapons and whatnot you can cut out a whole lot of stuff and make it relatively simple and quick playing.

[eldargal]

I do understand that, I'm not saying FW should ignore what sells well or necessarily do more Xenos (though that would be nice), I'm arguing that for the health of the hobby they shouldn't be doing any LESS. Otherwise all we have will be Marines vs Marines or Guard and that would be incredibly boring.

Well, Eldargal, just understand that the most selling armies from GW are the marine ones... because of their highly easy converting, their adaptability for being either any of the Chapters...

That´s why they mainly do marines

[Mr.Pickelz]

I'm with the Gal on this one. Unless the HH series offers SM vs Xenos/SM or something along those lines, then it will just overflow the SM model range, and give Xenos even less.

I would like to see FW make more Ork stuff personally, but other Xenos need that attention too.:D

[inquisitorsog]

If FW or GW really wanted to do a Horus Heresy thing, I'd say just make it a whole new game designed around Space Marines fighting Space Marines, when they've all got the same stats and weapons and whatnot you can cut out a whole lot of stuff and make it relatively simple and quick playing.

After reading that, I find myself nodding to the notion of another game, but then I think the battles of the heresy (and great crusade) were EPIC and not simple squad level fights. These EPIC scale battles could be done so that the emphasis is on battalion or large sized battles, not the platoon/company sized battles we see with 40k.

Wouldn't it be nice if they had a ruleset for EPIC battles they could just dust off and produce some HH models for?
Oh wait, they do, it's just in a lousy scale. Who want's to play with ant sized figures?

[Denzark]

What if they're throwing us a blinder and all the old armour marks are, as the frog eating crapauds from across the English Channel would say, 'Une Poisson Rouge'.

Maybe they are re-releasing epic scale Space Marine, with the 1st ed rules, as forgeworld goodies.

I'd buy that for a dollar.

[ChacoStylez]

FW is a company that specializes in kits for hardcore (and sometimes I think richer) 40k enthusiasts. That is why if you do have something of theirs you need to agree with your opponent if you can play with FW minis and their rules. Is it right that they mainly specialize with IG and SM? No. Heck, if I had the funds right now I would love to make an Eldar Corsair Army after the new IA book came out! But as a SM player I love the fact that there are so many options for me because of it.

If we’re lucky, they will come out with two books for the HH, just as they did with the Badab War. Throw in a section with different army compositions and some special characters with their stats, and that should be it. The marks of armor are already out, so all they would be throwing out are some more shoulder pads and that should really be it. Maybe they’ll come out with models for their special characters or maybe not, but it’s not like they will be overhauling and adding a lot more SM stuff for it.

Just my 2 cents :D.

[Wildeybeast]

I'm with the Gal on this one. Unless the HH series offers SM vs Xenos/SM or something along those lines, then it will just overflow the SM model range, and give Xenos even less.

I would like to see FW make more Ork stuff personally, but other Xenos need that attention too.:D

They couldn't do marines vs xenos in HH since the marines murderise everything they come across, the rules will have to be heavily weighted in their favour :D

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

They couldn't do marines vs xenos in HH since the marines murderise everything they come across, the rules will have to be heavily weighted in their favour :DWell, they do use a lot more attrition tactics than in modern era stuff, so Xenos would still stand a chance!

These might not wind up receiving significant model support beyond character models, since so much pre-heresy appropriate stuff has already been made. Do we know if they'll be working on HH stuff in parallel to IA stuff? HH books could wind up being more along the lines of campaign books with only a few released models.

[Wildeybeast]

Well, they do use a lot more attrition tactics than in modern era stuff, so Xenos would still stand a chance!

These might not wind up receiving significant model support beyond character models, since so much pre-heresy appropriate stuff has already been made. Do we know if they'll be working on HH stuff in parallel to IA stuff? HH books could wind up being more along the lines of campaign books with only a few released models.

An interesting idea, but I don't see it myself. The models make them the money and GW is first and foremost a model company. The books just give people a reason to use the models. Campaign books would require quite a lot of effort putting into them and without models to go with them they just don't seem viable.

[Levitas]

I agree, we dont need any more HH. The novels and home brew conversions are enough.

GW just loves feeding us more and more marines, until we vomit shoulder pads all over our sweaty rhino bits. So wouldn't be surprised to see it happen at some point.

[energongoodie]

I understand peoples reservations and I agree that the compatibility issue is definitely cause for concern, but........ shiny new Horus Heresy stuff would be AWESOME!!! :D

I can offer nothing to a reasoned debate right now as all I can think about are the model possibilities. Both for the Marines and the Xenos.

[westside]

I complained to FW about their lack of Epic support (you know the 'ants' that can actually manuver on the space a gaming table provides rather than just be nice looking, crowded together tokens for a game of dice) And FW quite logically explained that they tried, and the sales just weren't there. Makes sense, GW sells models not wargames.

Then they asked me if I had purchased models of the Epic scale they still had available, even just the items that I wanted, and honestly I had to reply no (and I still haven't, guess I'm waiting for them to be OOP so I can pay 10x the cost on ebay).

If all the people that complain about the lack of Xenos releases (both FW and GW) actually would buy the Xenos they release there would be more Xenos releases. I think the only thing that keeps some of the Xenos from being 'squated' are the interests of the designers rather than sales.

In one of the intros to an early Imperial Armour book FW explains that it will always be the Imperium vs. the enemy. Because the focus of the 40k mythos is Humanity vs. everything else occupying the same niche in the ecosystem of the universe, and the heroic struggle that ensues. (so far we have seen Tau, Tyranids, Eldar, Orks, Chaos vs. the Imperium, not bad for the Equal Opportunity quota)

Why couldn't HH just be a series of books from FW much like the Vraks series? You could have Crusades against Xenos (Iron Warriors vs. Hrud, Luna Wolves vs. MegaArachnids, etc.), SW vs. Thousand Sons on Prospero(work in the new psyker system?), and Mars (AM vs dark AM) The campaigns and scenarios would be specific but the majority of the models could be used rather generically.

[Deadlift]

I understand peoples reservations and I agree that the compatibility issue is definitely cause for concern, but........ shiny new Horus Heresy stuff would be AWESOME!!! :D

I can offer nothing to a reasoned debate right now as all I can think about are the model possibilities. Both for the Marines and the Xenos.

Might even see some new Iron Hands models, that would be nice would it not ? :D

[the jeske]

If all the people that complain about the lack of Xenos releases (both FW and GW) actually would buy the Xenos they release there would be more Xenos releases. I think the only thing that keeps some of the Xenos from being 'squated' are the interests of the designers rather than sales.
and do you know why people dont play xeno armies ? because they are updated slow [orks waited what 10 years for a new dex . same with DE] sm player know that their dex is going to be the first one in every edition and if they want to switch there will be other dex along the way . a nid player has no other army to switch to , neither has a tau player or an ork . then there is the problem of meq being well meq given easy mode rules , rules that let them ignore game mechanics [and realy base ones like for example loyalist ignore the Ld stat unless it is for casting psychic powers] . xeno armies sometimes get bad dex and when you combine a bad dex with a possible 10 year wait for a new one , you get fewer players . meq also rise their sells by doing new dex . BA come out people by crusaders/ravens/thundercannons/ironclads[and it doesnt matter if they want to switch or that someone lied to them that their army will be able to use those]. some xeno armies have to wait years to get units which are basic for most army builds and no sm player is going to start stacking up ork bombers .
So this is all GW foult not the xeno armies players . Giving more units and more options to meq armies will only make the xeno dex sell worse. And it is not going to help with the meq on meq games we get all the time .

[energongoodie]

Might even see some new Iron Hands models, that would be nice would it not ? :D

My thoughts exactly buddy :)

[eldargal]

Ok:

1) Epic is a dead system, 40k is not, hard to compare the two. Also there is no evidence that Xenos sell poorly for any other reason than lack of support. Drk Eldar have gone from being one of the worst selling to one of the best selling ranges. Indeed for the first time ever they outsold Space Marines in some of the GWs local to me.

2) A lot of people do complaing about a lack of support and don't buy things themselves it is true.

3) How do you know they don't? I see a lot of FW Eldar stuff in the Warseer Eldar plogs, I own a lot, msot of the Eldar players I know own some FW Eldar. Most of the Ork players I know have some FW Ork stuff. How do you know xenos releases are poor selling? Have you asked FW if their xenos releases aren't selling enough to warrant more? It is also beside the point, I'm n ot saying Xenos should be getting more attention, I'm saying they shouldn't receive less attention than they already are which would be inevitable if another series of HH books are introduced.

4) That has never been in question, we know FW will only do things from the Imperiums point of view.

5) It may be that, and if so it wouldn't be quite so bad. But it is strongly implied by the wording of the rumour that we are looking at a series of HH books, not a HH IA.

I complained to FW about their lack of Epic support (you know the 'ants' that can actually manuver on the space a gaming table provides rather than just be nice looking, crowded together tokens for a game of dice) And FW quite logically explained that they tried, and the sales just weren't there. Makes sense, GW sells models not wargames.

Then they asked me if I had purchased models of the Epic scale they still had available, even just the items that I wanted, and honestly I had to reply no (and I still haven't, guess I'm waiting for them to be OOP so I can pay 10x the cost on ebay).

If all the people that complain about the lack of Xenos releases (both FW and GW) actually would buy the Xenos they release there would be more Xenos releases. I think the only thing that keeps some of the Xenos from being 'squated' are the interests of the designers rather than sales.

In one of the intros to an early Imperial Armour book FW explains that it will always be the Imperium vs. the enemy. Because the focus of the 40k mythos is Humanity vs. everything else occupying the same niche in the ecosystem of the universe, and the heroic struggle that ensues. (so far we have seen Tau, Tyranids, Eldar, Orks, Chaos vs. the Imperium, not bad for the Equal Opportunity quota)

Why couldn't HH just be a series of books from FW much like the Vraks series? You could have Crusades against Xenos (Iron Warriors vs. Hrud, Luna Wolves vs. MegaArachnids, etc.), SW vs. Thousand Sons on Prospero(work in the new psyker system?), and Mars (AM vs dark AM) The campaigns and scenarios would be specific but the majority of the models could be used rather generically.

I'm not saying a HH book series will be the end of the world, or that it would be bad in itself. I just think it won't be particularly healthy for the hobby as a whole as half the playerbase is already neglected. I certainly don't begrudge FW making the kits they want and that sell well either.

Also, I'm not trying to 'shut you down' or stop you expressing your opinion I'm asking you to elaborate on why you think so and explain it further and support it with evidence.

[Denzark]

Strictly speaking the Great Crusade would have lots of Xenos being slaughtered into compliance. The Horus Heresy is the actions of traitor Horus against the Imperium.

So nowhere near as much xenos.

However Eldar have always popped up on the fringes since the earliest fluff, and many of the imperial chapters not at Istvaan were in contact with the Xenos when it kicked of.

So a small opportunity for xenos to be there.

[GrogDaTyrant]

Eh, I gotta agree (for once) with Eldargal. Horus Heresy would just be yet another nail in the coffin for me, as far as 40k is concerned. There was a time, not long ago, when my favorite faction in the game had an astounding 9 different army lists it could run, each of which unique and varied despite just a few minor tweaks for thematic purposes. Those lists were the Green-Codex "vanilla" Orks, Speed Kult, Feral Orks, and each of the 6 clans which took the basic list and made relatively minor modifications that made a colossal impact on how each played. Anyone who built more than 1 Ork army will tell you that the difference between say Deathskulls and Bad Moonz, was pretty massive. One had Lootas as Troops, with KFFs everywhere and looted-vehicles limited only by Heavy Support slots, while the other had as many 'Ard Boyz as they believed they could get away with and tons of battlewagons. Now, all of that has been stripped down and removed in favor of one semi-customizable codex with fewer unit options, and painfully clear 'power-builds' and Monte Cook style 'noob-traps' (*cough* Weridboyz, Zzap Guns, Flash Gitz).

Forge World gave the Orks the most extensive facelift both for what IA8 added to the army, as well what it did for the fluff of the army. If anything, the Imperial Armor series has done a great job of giving Xenos fans a story worth reading (as even our own codices have tended to be crap), as well as fleshing out what GW would rather let rot in previous editions. The Badab war IA was pretty dull in my personal opinion. And the Horus Heresy and pre-heresywould just be a recap of that, but over the course of several installments.

As much as I dislike something like with it's inevitable deluge of *yet more marine crap*, it ultimately will only serve as a painful reminder as to why I've moved on to other games (no, Warmahordes is not one of them).

-edit-

1) ... Also there is no evidence that Xenos sell poorly for any other reason than lack of support. Drk Eldar have gone from being one of the worst selling to one of the best selling ranges. Indeed for the first time ever they outsold Space Marines in some of the GWs local to me.

This, a thousand times this. The whole argument of -x army doesn't sell well- is fallacy. Dark Eldar, and Orks, both proved this. Neither army sold very well 5 years ago, and both were near the bottom of the sales charts. Hell a lot of the sales generated by Orks was chalked up as 'Fantasy Goblins' or '-insert imperial vehicle faction here-', due to no decently priced plastic gretchin and looted-vehicles. When each of those armies received their update, sales surged far above what they'd ever seen prior. Local GW stores in my area couldn't keep either the Ork or Dark Eldar kits on the shelves when they received their 'big releases'. 2nd (and 3rd) waves were a slightly different matter, though it was difficult for me to get a hold of any killa-kan boxes for the first month or so after their release.

The primary reason non-marine armies don't sell well, is a combination of a lack of support, and long (long) periods of being out-dated (see Tau currently).

[crazy_irish]

They call themself Forge World. Would be as if a Butcher would sell vegan food. They need to supply the Imperial Forces with weapons to fight the Xenos! ;-)

But reguarding the HH Books. I would love some more Heresy Era Rules and Models. They could even make a small Laer book, small as it didn't take to long, Go Fulgrim Go!

But Reguarding Primarchs. I hope they leave them out, or give'm models but no rules as i don't wanna see them on each and every Apo gaming table. They would need to be to good, to epic, they are friggin Primarchs. They even got their own clothing stores! :D

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Keep in mind that Primarchs aren't necessarily THAT tough, physically. The Emperor nearly got choked by a Warboss once, and Fulgrim would've been killed by a Wraithlord, then an Avatar, if it weren't for daemonic intervention. Magnus has solo-ed a couple of Xenos Titans though, but he's something of an anomaly (and the Eldar one would've killed him if another Thousand Son hadn't intervened).

They primarily had two things going for them - they were good strategists and very inspiring, so would get some good strategy/inspiration rules like Calgar, Kantor and Stormlord, and in the stories we've seen them they were either super important protagonists or antagonists, of course they defeat all challenges posed to them!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

The plot armour is strong!

[AnEnemy]

Also, not a huge amount of Xenos in the Heresy, Fulgrim had a lot of run ins with the Eldar but that was prior to the start of the first book in the series, which is the pyrrhic victory on Isstvan III.

So you're saying that you don't want a HH expansion from FW. I can understand that. What about a Great Crusade expansion?

Tons of Xenos in the GC. We can go back before the Astartes exterminated most of them.

Maybe an Exodites army via FW?

[GrogDaTyrant]

What about a Great Crusade expansion?

Tons of Xenos in the GC. We can go back before the Astartes exterminated most of them.

Because contrary to what a lot of 'imperium' player may like to think, not all the fans of -insert Xenos army here- are fans of every xenos army. Hell the whole term 'Xenos' factions is wildly inaccurate, because technically the game is currently divided down the line of 'Marine armies' and 'non-marine armies', with the latter having lost all it's sub-factions and variant lists (including the Imperial Guard).

In my personal opinion, I wouldn't be too ecstatic about a Great Crusade book, either. It is almost guaranteed that it would come across more along the lines of "superman pre-heresy marine fanboyism + punching bag aliens". I would rather see more of what they've been doing. These Imperial Armor books tell evocative stories regarding massive campaigns, and the forces that fought. And it's exactly what I personally think 40k should be like instead of it's current codex release setup.

If anything, they should do more IA books like this, and even vary up the factions involved. Why stop with just Marines+Guard vs -Adversary-? Why not do something crazy like the war between the Orks and the Tyranids in the Octurus sector? Something far better than the Nid codex's retcon of what is the greatest stalemate in the galaxy would be much appreciated, and nothing short of awesome. Or why not an Adeptus Mechanicus Explorator fleet vs Tau? Forge World was showing so much potential, and it is quite saddening to see it wasted on *boring Horus Heresy*. We know the story... half the legions go traitor, chaos loses and flees... we've been though all this before.