New Edition - the bad side...

[Denzark]

A new Edition is not simply a time for rejoicing. In the best spirit of pessimistic cynicism, and in no particular order, herewith the reasons why:

1. The Nerf Bat. The Lords giveth with one hand, and taketh away with the other.

2. The Rules Lawyers. Within 48hrs of release, debates of RAW vs RAI will be rife. Spurious claims and 'combos' which will create the most broken effects ever (thinking fliers will feature heavily) will be promulgated across the web. Until a FAQ clears it up in 8 months time, the Rules Lawyers will be ascendant.

3. Endless Reviews. Every internet 'personality' and his dog will wish to get their tuppence worth in. Some of the commentary will be on par with the BBC's Jubilee coverage.

4. The Fluff Destroyer. There could be retconning here. Hell if we're lucky the Tau, those manga lookalikes, may get Squatted! The Squats may bet Tau'd! Somebody will be upset. Those who want to see the End of Times with the Empire crumbling, may not get all they want. Those who are purists and don't want any more chop and changes, simply more development of existing fluff, will again curse Matt Ward...

5. Budgetary Woes. You've just realised the new rules make Roughriders supported by Ogryns, the most effective army bar none. You invested in Mech. To rectify this, is going to cost £500 and a vial of your firstborn's blood. Everyone WILL need something new. Before you post a dribbling rant online about how outrageous the price is, is your NEED like someone on a dialysis machine needs a new kidney or is it really not that important...

So, to sum up, don't say I didn't tell you....................

Cheers Easy!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

That's a fair viewpoint, I suppose we won't know what is going to change before we read it.
What I do know however is that I will read it from the moment it is in my hands, and learn to accept whatever changes are present.

[Wolfshade]

Yes I say!
Huzzah to fearing the unknown!
I think a lot of people are very excited at the prospect of a new edition, but do not look at the down sides.
I am all for moving the story forwards and making it more unified, but when your favourite peice of lore suddenly gets removed (or your new squat army...:mad:) then you do get annoyed.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

And anyone who welcomes change clearly wants the terrorists to win! :D

[DrLove42]

The biggest fear for me is that such a large shake up in rules as is rumoured (for me particularly random physic powers, casting dice pools, allies) will make the game unfun to play and I'll have a huge collection with no desire to use it.

Also I've only just prefected a good army list, its not gonna be any good after the change probably

[Psychosplodge]

And don't forget the unit cost deflation, 10 man fully tooled up space marine squads now 100 points?
standard game size 2500 points?

Anyways best get working on having a firstborn so I've got the correct currency :D

[Wolfshade]

The best deflation was 2nd->3rd everything got halved in value.
I spoke to black shirt about it and he was like "The community wanted to play larger games.."

[Psychosplodge]

I know I was there man...

There wasn't anything stopping you playing larger games, all the deflation did was mean you had to have more to play a "standard" sized game.....can't imagine why they'd do that....

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY, MONEY
etc.

[Psychosplodge]

I mean we once fielded a massive two companies of marines against every enemy of the imperium we could scrape together, took almost three hours to set up, then wiped them out in the pre-game with a virus bomb from orbit..... strategy cards were fun...

hilarious though it was, our opponents were less than amused....

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

WE ARE SPESS MEHRENES.

Even with Virus Bombs, I'd still prefer to engage the enemy in hand to hand combat. Such is the way of Sacris.

[Wolfshade]

2nd ed was crazy...

[Maelstorm]

Imagine if the Space Marine codex's fluff gets rewired like the Necron fluff...

The emporer is dead, shards of the emporer in everyones stockpile (C'tan).

All standard Space Marines reduced to 4+ scout armour (Warriors).

One of the (relatively) best looking models in the codex with the best weapon in the Codex is removed completely (Pariahs) with no reason as to why.

All original models get hit with the nerf-bat because they need to sell new models.

Only 1 of the original models gets moved to the top of the pile (Scarabs), you need 30+ of them, and you can only get 3 per $33 package by buying a completely different unit.

On the plus side - you get lots of shiny new toys and lots and lots of Ap(-) weapons!

[Defenestratus]

The depreciation of models isn't a problem for true hobbyists. Only the powergamers who invest in the FOTM will have to break out the benji's to get the latest and greatest FOTM list.

Personally, I'm looking forward to dusting off my Eldar Guardians and Shining Spears, My Blood angels captains and tac marines.

[Maelstorm]

The depreciation of models isn't a problem for true hobbyists. Only the powergamers who invest in the FOTM will have to break out the benji's to get the latest and greatest FOTM list.

Alas, I wish it was a power gamer issue. Instead I'm a "completionist": I must have all of the toys in the Codex and I won't place new toys on the table unless they are painted. It can take a while for the new toys to make it to the table... :rolleyes:

[gendoikari87]

Hell if we're lucky the Tau, those manga lookalikes, may get Squatted!**** you, Seriously just **** you!

[eldargal]

I know right? Bad Denzark, getting our hopes up like that.

**** you, Seriously just **** you!

[gendoikari87]

I know right? Bad Denzark, getting our hopes up like that.

Why do people hate the tau so much, I mean god, Grey Knights get more love. I'm personally holding out for all suit armies in the next codex.

[eldargal]

I don't*, I'm just teasing you.;)


*Not since they made their background more grimdark with pheremonal indoctrination, created by the Eldar and forced sterilising of resistant populations.

[gendoikari87]

I don't*, I'm just teasing you.;)


*Not since they made their background more grimdark with pheremonal indoctrination, created by the Eldar and forced sterilising of resistant populations.

I just want an answer to the vespid question: is it really mind control or not.

also cooler Tau battlesuits and battlesuit armies. Come on GW think more like gundam.

[Denzark]

**** you, Seriously just **** you!

Ha I wish the Bols filter was a bit more forgiving I'd like to see what I am supposed to be doing!

In all seriousness I was half joking, will you half forgive me?*
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* Couldn't care less about Tau, but remember my Squats getting retconned and wouldn't wish it on anyone - it was so unnecessary.

[gendoikari87]

What happened to the squats was horrible, a completely unnecessary massacre.

and yes I forgive you.

[Kawauso]

All standard Space Marines reduced to 4+ scout armour (Warriors).

One of the (relatively) best looking models in the codex with the best weapon in the Codex is removed completely (Pariahs) with no reason as to why.

All original models get hit with the nerf-bat because they need to sell new models.



1- Warriors are still about as tough as a marine with a 4+ armour save and 5+ reanimation roll. Not bad for a basic troop. And it makes a lot of sense in the context of the rest of the army. I mean, I guess I can see where you're coming from being upset at the change...lots of people (myself included) weren't happy when the 4+ rumour came about, but comparing it to new on power armour is a pretty big stretch...Warriors are supposed to be unending legions of cannon fodder, aren't they? That was true in the old fluff and the new. After the new book came out it turns out Warriors are still a good unit...it's pretty hard to judge those changes before you play with them yourself, after all.

2- Um...Pariahs are still there. I don't know what you're talking about. They're just called Lychguard, now.

3- Lords are still good. Warriors are still good. Immortal are still good. 'Pariahs' are still good. Wraiths are fantastic. Destroyers are still good (if the rumoured changes to Preferred Enemy in 6th are true, they even get a lot better). Spyders are still good. Scarabs are great. The C'tan are still usable, as is the Monolith. Flayed Ones are...less bad.
Are you looking at the same codices that I'm looking at? Because I don't see a single unit that was weakened to the point where it's not worth taking.

[deaddice]

Ok i have got to ask why does every one call Tau manga look alikes as some one who actually watches anime and reads manga they look nothing like any such mecha, they are too bulky and block like. Hell the loos argument they look maybe like robotech BUT even robotech is based off a 25 year old (Macross) franchise which has significantly updated the looks of their mech.

Even more weirdly if you compare the current aesthetic of anime and manga to the 40k universe the actual tau themselves look nothing like any anime or manga character i have seen. Oddly the eldar are the closest possible match in terms of pure visual style.

Ok now that the rant is done with I have nothing against the Tau they are an army which has a real sense of being alien in the 40k univerese,i just don't get why people compare them to something they are not.

[gendoikari87]

Ok i have got to ask why does every one call Tau manga look alikes as some one who actually watches anime and reads manga they look nothing like any such mecha, they are too bulky and block like. Hell the loos argument they look maybe like robotech BUT even robotech is based off a 25 year old (Macross) franchise which has significantly updated the looks of their mech.

Even more weirdly if you compare the current aesthetic of anime and manga to the 40k universe the actual tau themselves look nothing like any anime or manga character i have seen. Oddly the eldar are the closest possible match in terms of pure visual style.

Ok now that the rant is done with I have nothing against the Tau they are an army which has a real sense of being alien in the 40k univerese,i just don't get why people compare them to something they are not.

I don't know the xv-25 and the xv-8 do kinda resemble gundam/front mission mecha with spindly little legs.

[deaddice]

hmm feels like a stretch at best, the head of both models don't divide into the body enough times ( and they heads arent large enough to match SD gundam, their heads are even bigger).

Of course if they were any closer to actual models i am sure it would breech IP.

[gendoikari87]

Look similar?
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-20/art/fm3-recson-m4f.jpg

I hope though, that they go more along the lines of this:

http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-07/art/fm4-wanzer-blizzaia-l.jpg

[Psychosplodge]

I don't*, I'm just teasing you.;)


*Not since they made their background more grimdark with pheremonal indoctrination, created by the Eldar and forced sterilising of resistant populations.

Just like proper little blue commies lol

[Renegade]

I know there going to be changes, and I don't really care... after the CSM 4.0 destroyed the army I had lovingly painted, I cannot think of anything that they could do to mess up my armies. I have one all infantry and one mechanised... Bring it on!

If rumours are true about allies, and the game size goes up, I can always put BT in may guard list or the other way round.

What annoys me is having to wait so long for the new rule book!

[Uncle Nutsy]

screw the naysayers.

screw the wussies.

i'm diving in head first.

[Mr Mystery]

Anyone fancy joining a sweepstake to name which famous internet goon will declare the launch a flop, despite only offering unsubstantiated anecdotal information?

My bet is on HBMC from Dakka.

[EnglishInquisition]

I'm so looking forward to 6th!!
@£50 gets me 6 new armies (+ variants)! Thanks GW.
I buy armies because I like the models/background, I don't build "builds".
Will the models I've got suddenly lose their aesthetics because there's a new rulebook? I don't think so.
Will I have to adjust my armies to the new rules? Will I suddenly want to paint that unpainted unit so I can use it? Will I now want to buy cool new toys? God, I hope so!!

6th Edition - BRING IT ON!

[Lord Inquisitor]

I expect the worst but hope for the best. I'm afraid my armies will be unusable, but hope they make it even better than it is now. I also fear the fluff changes. A whole main rulebook influenced by Ward *shudder*.

[gendoikari87]

I expect the worst but hope for the best. I'm afraid my armies will be unusable, but hope they make it even better than it is now. I also fear the fluff changes. A whole main rulebook influenced by Ward *shudder*.

Codename for 6th? MS, Mary Sue.

[Wildeybeast]

I expect the worst but hope for the best. I'm afraid my armies will be unusable, but hope they make it even better than it is now. I also fear the fluff changes. A whole main rulebook influenced by Ward *shudder*.

The fantasy one was written by him and works perfectly well.

[Mr Mystery]

But regarding the wider changes...

I say bring it. A stagnant game is a dead game. Sure individual army books are said the change the 'meta' (though how you can work out the meta on purely anecdotal and incomplete data is another thread in itself!) but to really shake things up, tweak the core rules.

I'm looking forward to seeing some of the Necron oddities explained. Like Destroyers being given Preferred Enemy, a CC boost, when they're a shooty unit. Not to mention Phase Swords being described as Power Weapons, and Warscythes being described as ignoring armour saves.

On account I'm a suspicious, untrusting git, I tend to ignore rumours. That, and I can never be arsed to try to sort wishlist from playtest leak etc.

Although I'm mildly strapped for cash at the mo, I will be picking this book up on release day, and almost like a little piggy, I'll be going 'squee squee squee' all the way home. Or I can go full on hardcore and nick off up the Pub with it....

[Black Hydra]

The fantasy one was written by him and works perfectly well.

Fantasy doesn't have marines. Ward loves marines. That's why he shouldn't write a lot of 40k fluff. Necrons are fine. Fantasy is fine. Sisters not so much.... You get the idea.

[Kawauso]

Fantasy doesn't have marines. Ward loves marines. That's why he shouldn't write a lot of 40k fluff. Necrons are fine. Fantasy is fine. Sisters not so much.... You get the idea.

Sisters was written by Cruddace...? And I wasn't aware of any big stink about their fluff in the WD codex - was there?

The only thing I can think of involving Sisters fluff that had people all upset was in the GK codex. Which was Ward. But it was in the GK book.

So what is it you're worried that Ward would do to the fluff?

For the record I think his fluff is pretty good. He's written, what...half of the 5th-ed books, and they all have really solid fluff and -very- solid rules.
The bits people actually complain about are quite small in relation to the books themselves - one bit of fluff in the BA book about Necrons and BA teaming up, plus the 'blood this, blood that' name on things; the fluff for Draigo and the bit about SoB in the GK book combined with some options/unit/wargear combinations that can be kind of nuts; I think that pretty much sums up the most commonly-heard complains about his books. And that's out of, what, 4 books full of fluff and rules?

I get where and why people get a dislike of Ward, but it gets blown way out of proportion.

I'm sure the internet would have an aneurism but if it turns out Ward wrote a good chunk of the 6th Ed rules, put me in the camp of people thinking that's a good thing.

[Black Hydra]

The problem with Ward writing the overall fluff of the 40k universe is that there is a chance he might make it even more marine friendly. Writing individual books not including a lot of marines is fine. I was even surprised to find the Imperial Fists getting pawned by the Necrons. Though as some have pointed out, the Necrons lost their grimdark due to Ward not understanding the 40k universe. That I get. Though the new Necron fluff is good IMO. Point is, marines get supercharged with Ward in their own books. Now give the reins for the 40k overall fluff and there is a good chance there will be problems.

Undeniably there are staples of Ward writing that bleed through his works. Which end up being bad marks.

And I heard Ward co wrote the SoB codex with Cruddace. That that's why it ended up being meh to begin with.

Also, Ward's rule writing is better than his fluff writing-agreed. Too bad it involves making everything marine pretty ridiculous sometimes. It doesn't matter that he wrote the fantasy book. 40k is a different animal.

Progress of his most important books IMO: vanilla marines (god level fluff, balanced rules), Blood Angels (no idea on the fluff, but pretty crazy rules though not broken), Grey Knights (stupid fluff and stupid rules). And yes the Knights are broken. Yes an inexperienced player can lose using them. Yes they aren't unbeatable. But they are overpowered.

tl;dr?

I don't know why some people praise Ward. He's alright. I like the Necrons. But he's biased as all hell. That's why his works are so inconsistent. If he threw out the marine love and became sensible, pair that up with Phil Kelly, and GW have something awesome. Too bad that won't change any time soon for Ward. Get ready for some Tau-Marine love (for some odd reason...).

EDIT: Not to mention he hates any other chapter other than Ultrasmurfs. He even said that chapters such as the Space Wolves and Black Templar are in decline due to unstable geneseeds. And yet both those chapters have well over a thousand marines. Yeah right Ward. All I know is he'd better keep his mitts off the cooler chapters.

[DrLove42]

Sisters was written by Cruddace...? And I wasn't aware of any big stink about their fluff in the WD codex - was there?


No there was just NO fluff in the WD codex....

And I agree. I think he's a good rules maker. Some of his stuff is a little stupid and crazy (rad Grenades, psybolts on Dreads, mindshackle scarabs, regular scarabs) but most of his stuff is perfectly reasonable and fun. He adds a lot of crazy into the mix, which helps break up armies. I'd like to see what he could have done with CSM and in the future Orks. His only downside is that in some armies some choices are clear winners and some are clear losers

His fluff is generally average. Kelly (6's be upon him) is the king of fluff in my opinion (and as DE shows, can write a book where every unit is equal)

[gendoikari87]

does ANYONE know who's writing the new Tau book?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

John Freeman - saver of humens.