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View Full Version : Third Party Companies, Official Models and Strict Environments.



Mr Mystery
06-05-2012, 07:03 AM
Sup peeps!

So, Chapterhouse landed themselves in the poop by producing upgrade kits (fair enough I suppose) and then marketing them using GW owned trademarks and copyrights (whoops). Notably, the Tervigon, which if memory serves was a conversion kit for the Carnifex. And there are many companies out there churning out bitz and pieces for existing kits, or otherwise gap filling incomplete ranges.

Now, rather than focus on the various opinions on this practice (I'll freely state I'm against it, and I have a low opinion of such companies, but that's for another thread) I want to discuss more practical concerns.

For instance, now it's finally out, the Tervigon and Tyrannofex are considerably larger than most home made conversions and commercially available kits. Indeed, Chapterhouse, as far as I can see, have ceased production of their conversion kit for the Tervigon. I'd imagine this is mostly due to the GW model now rendering it a less than useful investment, rather than the ongoing (and tedious, so let's not discuss it here) court case..

But how does this affect those who have bought one or more already? I'm a self identifying casual gamer, but WYSIWYG is an important rule, as is True Line of Sight. Where a conversion or proxy has a significantly smaller sillhouette or mass, I feel the player has an unfair advantage, being able to hide the unit better, or worse, being able to use it to block line of sight to other units. From my limited understanding, this is even more likely to be seen as a problem in the more competitive circles, and that's before you take into account relative base sizes.

Is it a big enough issue that despite having invested in alternate models, those who seek to field a particular build in a Tournament style environment, to now make third party 'hole filling' conversion kits less attractive? For instance, though I'm not aware of any manufactured attempts, the Necron flier is significantly larger than the various home made conversions, enough to give a potential advantage under the 40k rules set.

Will this have a wider impact, in that players will wait for the official model first, and then if inclined that way, seek out a third party attempt of a similar size? And in terms of chicken and egg, will this mean we see reduced output from Third Party companies?

Of course, this won't affect bitz manufacturers, or indeed any third party bitz kit, as they're designed to be put on existing, known scale models. But third party attempts at gap filling? If we look to Dark Eldar, Necrons, Ogres and Vampire Counts, they have all their units out, barring the Bomber and a few special characters. This has already reduced the potential impact of third party sculptors, and way I see it, only those that are producing really nice models will continue in business, as it's inevitable someone will find their sculpt more appealing.

So yeah. Bit of a long winded one, but off we go!

Brandoncbaker
06-05-2012, 07:40 AM
Most every tournament setting will require that army's be made up of exclusively GWs model rage to avoid issues as such.

isotope99
06-05-2012, 07:49 AM
I think it's reasonable to expect someone to bring the right base, even if it's just resting on an unpainted version, as assaults get confusing otherwise.

As for the rest, hopefully the players are mature enough to figure it out.

Either one person gives the other the benefit of the doubt, compromise with a 5+ cover save etc. or call a ref.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect players to replace their conversions (third party or otherwise) just because GW has finally delivered the missing models.

L192837465
06-05-2012, 07:55 AM
GW no longer supports any major tournaments. It is now entirely up to the TO to determine if they're allowed or not. Proper base size IS a requirement though.

Denzark
06-05-2012, 08:58 AM
GW no longer supports any major tournaments...

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=3500001&section=&aId=18500077a

Wildeybeast
06-05-2012, 09:44 AM
Don't forget the doubles tournaments as well! http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=3500001&section=&aId=20900004a

I'm guessing L192837465 meant ones organised by third parties. He is correct that it will vary from one tournamnet to the next. GW themsleves do allow converted models and counts ones, so you could bring in your scratch built model, providing it is using GW parts.

All your models should be on the appropriate base size (ie- the base supplied with the model).
If Games Workshop produce a model for a unit entry, we expect you to use it. For example, plastic Ork Boyz painted slightly differently cannot be used for Kommandos. Similarly, you cannot use plastic Moria Goblins to represent Gundabad Blackshields. The exception to this is any conversions you may have done for thematic reasons.
All models must clearly show all the correct weapon options on them.
Any conversions should be clearly obvious as to what they are, and be the same size as the Citadel miniature sold.
All models and their components must be produced by Citadel Miniatures, Forgeworld or Warhammer Forge.

L192837465
06-05-2012, 02:58 PM
GW no longer supports any major tournaments...

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=3500001&section=&aId=18500077a

Yeah ok. I'll concede they support ONE tournament. And I mean directly sanction it.


Good show.

Denzark
06-05-2012, 03:42 PM
Yeah ok. I'll concede they support ONE tournament. And I mean directly sanction it.


Good show.

Maybe they think it is like ****-push-ups. One is all you need.

Psychosplodge
06-06-2012, 01:52 AM
When you've done one, you're up...

Wolfshade
06-06-2012, 02:14 AM
For instance, now it's finally out, the Tervigon and Tyrannofex are considerably larger than most home made conversions and commercially available kits...

But how does this affect those who have bought one or more already? I'm a self identifying casual gamer, but WYSIWYG is an important rule, as is True Line of Sight. Where a conversion or proxy has a significantly smaller sillhouette or mass, I feel the player has an unfair advantage, being able to hide the unit better, or worse, being able to use it to block line of sight to other units. From my limited understanding, this is even more likely to be seen as a problem in the more competitive circles, and that's before you take into account relative base sizes.


Regarding bases the only official rule is that if a model comes with a base they should be attached to it to play. Though lots of tournaments have their own particualar ruling on this which is outside of GW.

Though the issue with proxy/conversion sizes is another problem, but one GW has within its own range (historically). I have been playing 40k for a while now and if I compare the size of my old rhinos to the new ones, there is a clear difference (and so with anything that has the same chasis), similiarly, with old/new terminators and then you even have the concerns of different base sizes.
I was playing with my Orks yesterday and an interesting situation arose, one of my trukks (an old style one) was completely out of LOS behind a peice of terrain, but the trukk next to it (an new style one) was in LOS (though hulled down). Was I using the old trukk to gain some un-fair advantage? No, I was using every Trukk I have in my collection (current ration 4 old styles to 1 new).
I should not be discrimated against using my older models in a game, I tend to use the newest models I have (as they look so much better) but I am not going to replace all of my minatures just because a new model is a different size/shape.

Mr Mystery
06-06-2012, 05:38 AM
A fair point well made.

My brother and I likewise assembled a full company of Dark Angels in the late 90's, which of course involved the smaller Rhinos.

Has anyone ever run into accusations of gamesmanship from an opponent, perhaps asserting that you have sought out older models for that specific advantage? Happy to say it's not something I've personally encountered, but as stated I rarely attend tournaments.

And how about units with no current model, the Harpy being a good example. Clearly people are going to convert their own, and this is to be encouraged. Have you ever felt someone has modelled for advantage in this respect? I appreciate this is quite the grey area, and thus a good topic for conversation.

whargoul666
06-06-2012, 11:06 AM
My thoughts on the old style Rhinos (and I have a LOT of them) is that they do give an unfair advantage if fielded "as is". However, I have also figured out that building them a base out of particle board brings them well within the hight range of the newer Rhinos, so that is how I am going to "fix" mine.

Also old style Terminators (again I have a lot of these) come right up to the same hight as the newer Teminators if you just affix the old 25mm base right on top of a newer 40mm one. No, they don't look nearly as good as the newer models, but if you have a surplus of older models this is a good fix.