The Hive Mind vs Grandfather Nurgle

[FireHazard]

Hey all!

The other day, my friend and I were having a discussion regarding the backgrounds of our various armies when an interesting question popped up. As neither of us could come to a definitive conclusion, I thought I might put that question to the imaginative minds of your good selves.

The question is this: If the Tyranids got into a tussle with a force under the sway of Nurgle, what would the 'Nids do with the dead 'Nurglites'?

Would they turn their pointy noses up and move on? Would they eat it and get THE WORST case of food poisoning? Indeed, if they did consume the bodies, how would it affect their biological systems, if at all?

Apologies if this has already been discussed before but there are many, MANY pages and I wasn't able to look through everything :D

I leave the floor open to you, dear readers - have at it!

[The AKH]

I'd wager the Hive Mind exerts enough of a psychic dampening effect that it'd be able to overcome the worst of Nurgle's influences and probably just end up with some more effective Spore Mines, toxins, and maybe Venomthropes and Pyrovores?

[eldargal]

We don't know enough about how Nurgles diseases work to say with any certainty. If they require some kind of active influence from the warp then the Shadow in the Warp may shield the 'nids from the effects. It is also likely that their immune systems are highly developed and would be able to isolate/destroy the plague eventually.

If the plagues are purely physical and just 'designed' by Nurgle in the warp then they may pose more of a threat, at least temporarily (see above re: immune system).

Of course we don't actually know how the Hive Fleet absorbs biomass, it could be tha it is disassembled at such a level that the very virus/bacteria/whatever itself is dissassembled during the process and thus the tyranid organisms themselves are never infected.

Short version: we have no idea how it would work.

[FireHazard]

This was pretty much our thinking too, until we remembered Storm of Iron. In the book, there is a description of one of the Iron Warriors cargo vessels which was a 'Nid bio-ship that had been infected with the Obliterator Virus.

Could Nurgle's Rot not similarly take hold? It is described as being "completely incurable" as well as being part spiritual and part physical.

Your points about the Shadow in the Warp are very valid I think, but it does make me wonder, could Daemons (of any kind) actually manifest themselves on the physical plain if a 'Nid fleet is present?

[Kawauso]

Your points about the Shadow in the Warp are very valid I think, but it does make me wonder, could Daemons (of any kind) actually manifest themselves on the physical plain if a 'Nid fleet is present?

Well they have done so in the past, at least. There's fluff to that effect in the Tyranid codex and, I believe, the Grey Knight codex (who decide upon reviewing a Tyranid-infested brand-new Daemon World to promptly 'nuke it from orbit').

[FireHazard]

*Digs out GK Codex... blows dust away... thumbs pages*

Indeed you are right, sir! 'The Pandemonium of Sondheim V'.

So, Daemons can manifest themselves despite the Hive Mind's warp disruption. So, in theory, something akin to Nurgle's Rot (or, indeed, the Rot itself) could, very maybe affect 'Nids.

I suspect, however, that Eldargal is correct and we will never know.

Still, Nurgley 'Nids... gives me an idea for a new project...:cool:

[mjasghar]

for a long time chaos and tyranids were kept apart in the fluff, as were chaos and orks (exception of khorne stormboyz). recently we have seen plague orks though.
my guess is it's the usual from which side is the writer favouring.
so pronurgle the hivefleet gets infected by the biomass and becomes a living plaguefleet.
protyranid use of bioacids and superfast reaction to disease, combined with shadow in the warp, means hivefleet wins.
the exception to the above is that eldar almost always lose even in their own fluff, and the eldar avatar gets mashed by everything, even gretchin.

[DarkDesigner]

I remember talking to a staff member in GW Guildford one time and he mentioned a short story, or even just a small section in a black library novel somewhere about a Tyranid fleet that had gone into the warp and come out all gribbly, like gribblier. But he didn't know which book and no one else I've asked can think where it's from. If you know where it's from and can tell us without too many spoilers, it would definitely be relevant to this conversation!

I've always loved the idea of Chaosified alien races. Like back when the Grey Knight's opponent could take a unit of lesser daemons or a greater daemon, that was great. The only thing is, it's always really easy to show a Khornate or Nurglitch army, and to a certain extent to do Tzeentch, but being primarily a slaanesh player it's much more difficult. Especcially with armies like Orks or Tyranids.

Leather-bound Tau on the other hand...

[FireHazard]

After a fair rummage around the interwebs, I found several references to the above being in a Space Wolf novel but no one knows which one. I've got all of them so I'll do some scouring but if anyone knows more or beats me to it, tell us what you know!

The 'webs have also taught me that I'm far from the first person to question this, and not just specifically about Grandpapa Nurgle. This whole Chaos 'Nid thing is giving me many interesting, and slightly disturbing (I'm looking at you, Slaanesh... well, not AT you 'cause that would be baaad...) ideas.

"Leather-bound Tau". That is so, so, SO wrong.

"So, which caste are you?"

"Pleasure caste. Wanna see my Hammerhead...?"

[Wildeybeast]

I'm pretty sure Tau are largely immune to the effects of Chaos as they are psycially inert, their entire species barely registering in the warp at all (hence why they can't use warp travel).
There was an acccount in the old codex (before they took all the fluff out, thank you for that GW) of Kroot eating Chaos infected beings and it having a rather unpleasant effect on them, to the extent the Tau and Kroot destroyed them. So it can be passed on at genetic level, though Tyranid biomass consumption is obviously more sophicticated than that of the Kroot so it effects may be lessened.

[FireHazard]

Yeah, I was thinking about that last night. Tau don't have psychic abilities and the presence of Ethereals kinda means no Chaotic mental manipulation. I'm not even sure it would happen if there wasn't an Ethereal around. The Tau would certainly change their thinking (like Farsight) but I'm still not sure Chaos could get a word in.

If they ended up on a Daemon world or were exposed to the Warp itself somehow, then perhaps they could be affected physically, and THEN perhaps mentally as well.

I know I'm deviating from my original post a little now, but it's my post and I can.

So ner.

All of this has made me wonder about the affects of Chaos and the other Xenos races in the galaxy. Which ones could be affected, how would it affect them and which Powers could affect them?

Orks: We know from the older fluff (especially Freebooterz, of which I haz a kopy) that they are reasonably susceptible, though aside from some mutation, you probably wouldn't be able to tell much.

Eldar/Dark Eldar: I know Slaanesh has the monopoly on them, but could the other Powers 'steal' one or two from time to time?

Tau: Tricky one. See above posts.

Tyranids: I figure Slaanesh has no hope here, but the other three big guys might get a shoe in.

Necrons: ++Query: Chaos? End Query++ Clearly, not going to happen.

I know there are various other minor races dotted around and books like Xenology have expanded upon their backgrounds but, even after 20 long years in the hobby, I confess to not knowing enough about them to make a call on them :confused:

[Wildeybeast]

I don't think Khorne would have any effect on nids either. Slannesh and Khorne both play to emotions/sensations which the nids don't have. Their sole purpose is already to rend all living matter in the galaxy into a nutrious goo, so I'm not sure what difference making them angry about it will have. Tzeentch and Nurgle could have a physical effect on them, but I don't think any Chaos power could really control them as such, since all the Choas derives it's power form emotions and nids don't have any. Even genestealers outside of synapse control have little in the way of sentience, never mind emotion.

Ditto for Necrons, if I understand the retconed fluff properly they don't possess much in the way emotions or physcial bodies so Chaos won't have much effect.

Orks are pretty much as you say. They generate massive psychic energy but like the Shadow in the Warp it seems to be too powerful for Chaos to control. They manipulate Orks all the time (at least according to THQ!) but tyring to actually control them is like trying to control the weather. And emotions wise, Orks only do agression and happiness and the two are based off each other, so not much room to exploit there.

It seems that races most at risk to Choas are the rational, independently minded ones like Eldar and Humans, whis is why.... SPOLIERZ....




the Alpha legion sign up to the Horus Heresy. Wipe out humanity and Chaos goes with it, saving the rest of the galaxy.

[Pendragon38]

Its in the previous Daemon Hunters Codexs pg .53 . if that will help

[FireHazard]

Well played Pendragon :) There are some really interesting ideas there!

[mjasghar]

*cough* Genestealer cult armies could turn to Chaos *cough*

[Dlatrex]

I remember talking to a staff member in GW Guildford one time and he mentioned a short story, or even just a small section in a black library novel somewhere about a Tyranid fleet that had gone into the warp and come out all gribbly, like gribblier. But he didn't know which book and no one else I've asked can think where it's from. If you know where it's from and can tell us without too many spoilers, it would definitely be relevant to this conversation!


Just because what you mentioned rang a chord with me:
From the Codex Daemonhunters, section Daemonhunters Narratives. Page 53

Daemonhunters would fight Tyranids because:

A hive ship was sucked into the Warp and what emerged was corrupted beyond all reason. When the few surviving monsters make planetfall, the Daemonhunters are waiting to destroy them all.
A Tyranid digestion pool has formed around an ancient Warp gate and the departing souls flaring into the ether have reactivated the portal. Daemonic intrusion will soon be inevitable.
A corrupted Hive Tyranid has been infected with Nurgle's Rot and is spreading the plague ahead of its swarms. The Daemonhunters must find it and kill it to give the Imperial forces a chance of resisting.
The Daemonhunters know of a powerful, buried Chaos icon on a populated planet that the Tyranids have invaded. The scale of the death will awaken the Daemon chained within the icon and the Daemonhunters must halt the Tyranids before they reach it.


So we have at least *one* incident in the fluff that establishes Tyranids can be infected and proliferate one of Nurgle's maladies. Now that said, I suspect that most daemon/tyranid interactions occur at the edges of a hive fleet, where the shadow in the warp is weak/incomplete rather than in the middle where there are no souls to attract them, and the warp is being filled with tyranid chittering. My suspicion is that if the infected tyranids were absorbed into the bulk of the hive fleet, the hive-mind would eliminate the contagion, else we would already have seen a tyranid pandemic.

That said, perhaps the hive fleet excludes infected organisms, in the same way it does not re-absorb the ymgarl genestealers. :D

[DarkDesigner]

Just because what you mentioned rang a chord with me:
From the Codex Daemonhunters, section Daemonhunters Narratives. Page 53

Daemonhunters would fight Tyranids because:

A hive ship was sucked into the Warp and what emerged was corrupted beyond all reason. When the few surviving monsters make planetfall, the Daemonhunters are waiting to destroy them all.
A Tyranid digestion pool has formed around an ancient Warp gate and the departing souls flaring into the ether have reactivated the portal. Daemonic intrusion will soon be inevitable.
A corrupted Hive Tyranid has been infected with Nurgle's Rot and is spreading the plague ahead of its swarms. The Daemonhunters must find it and kill it to give the Imperial forces a chance of resisting.
The Daemonhunters know of a powerful, buried Chaos icon on a populated planet that the Tyranids have invaded. The scale of the death will awaken the Daemon chained within the icon and the Daemonhunters must halt the Tyranids before they reach it.


So we have at least *one* incident in the fluff that establishes Tyranids can be infected and proliferate one of Nurgle's maladies. Now that said, I suspect that most daemon/tyranid interactions occur at the edges of a hive fleet, where the shadow in the warp is weak/incomplete rather than in the middle where there are no souls to attract them, and the warp is being filled with tyranid chittering. My suspicion is that if the infected tyranids were absorbed into the bulk of the hive fleet, the hive-mind would eliminate the contagion, else we would already have seen a tyranid pandemic.

That said, perhaps the hive fleet excludes infected organisms, in the same way it does not re-absorb the ymgarl genestealers. :D

Thank you for that, that's really gone some way to helping me find this lost bit of fluff! I really hope there is a story out there (like Firehazard I had heard it's in a Space Wolves novel but couldn't be told which), but for the moment that's a nice little tidbit!


Necrons: ++Query: Chaos? End Query++ Clearly, not going to happen.

Khorne Necrons: War Machines.
Tzeentch Necrons: Change Machines.
Nurgle Necrons: Dialysis Machines?
Slaanesh Necrons: Love Machines. I'm just a love machine

Hey, why is no one talking about Chaos Squats I wonder?

[Dlatrex]

Yeah, I'd love to see that type of interaction in a novel as well. Here's hoping someone out there knows every Space Wolf story. ;-)

I must admit, I almost disturbed my fellow healthcare workers here at the office with my laugh when I read "Dialysis Machines".

=D

[DarkDesigner]

Yeah, I'd love to see that type of interaction in a novel as well. Here's hoping someone out there knows every Space Wolf story. ;-)

I must admit, I almost disturbed my fellow healthcare workers here at the office with my laugh when I read "Dialysis Machines".

=D


Yeah sorry about that, I didn't know what else to put for Nurgle... I was taking the piss...

[papa smurf]

Hmm, as a Tyranid player I have a strong leaning towards both the evolutionary and psychic resistance of Tyranids, but I think it would very much an arms race between the different diseases of Nurgle and the Evolutionary change rate of the 'Nids.

In the Tyranid codex, there is a hive fleet that attacks tau space and the different attack waves constantly evolve to match the technological 'evolution' the tau use to counter the Tyranids.

Meanwhile, Papa Nurgle is always making new brews of diseases, poxes and plagues to use on the galaxy. I imagine the physical damage Nurgle's diseases would inflict on the Tyranids would be very taxing for the swarm, but the next wave of tyranids would have evolved to stave off the (physical) effects of that certain disease. In turn, Nurgle and/or his followers would throw a new disease into the equation. Rinse and repeat, may the best gribbly-monsters win...

As for the psychic affects of the disease, I do believe the Shadow of the Warp would make it much harder for daemons (and their diseases) to exist and/or be effective on the mortal plane, however, if you get Tyranids in some kind of Warp Rift, Warp area, daemon world etc. etc. where the powers of the Warp have more sway, the rules of the normal galaxy don't apply.
Tyranids are very opposite to chaos in that they are not random, conceived from raw emotion, but cold, calculating killers down to the cellular level. In a domain completely full of randomness and chaos, I don't think even the evolutionary power of the Tyranids would be able to keep up.

That said, with the new fluff in the Tyranid Codex they don't actually use warp travel for moving across the galaxy, but a Tyranid bioship called a Narvhal. It uses its advanced sensory tendrils to detect gravity signatures from planets even at extremely long distances across space. Somehow the Narvhal can use the planet's own gravity to kind of create a 'gravity tunnel' that allows the hive fleets to move at faster-than-light speeds. The side-effect is that they have to stop in open space outside the planet system (slowing their arrival by long margins, even years) but this effectively removes much of the dangers of warp travel. A bit of a tangent there I know, but this would mean there would be significantly less opportunities for Tyranids to fight with Daemons. For those interested, the Narvhal stuff is on page 19 of the current Tyranid Codex.

TL;DR folks: in conclusion, Tyranids could evolve fast enough to cope and if they were in realspace, they will pretty much always be able to handle it. Put them in an area heavily influenced by the warp though and the game is no longer played by the Tyranids' rules.

EDIT: also along with the other psychic defenses, the Tyranid's lack of emotion would make it hard to influence them in any significant way (at least spiritually).

[Chris*ta]

Tyranids: I figure Slaanesh has no hope here, but the other three big guys might get a shoe in.

Tyranids + Slaanesh = Zoidberg sucking on the Professor's fish-pheromone-soaked head, saying "I'm so into you".


TL;DR folks: in conclusion, Tyranids could evolve fast enough to cope and if they were in realspace, they will pretty much always be able to handle it. Put them in an area heavily influenced by the warp though and the game is no longer played by the Tyranids' rules.

This reminds me of the "who would win in a fight between ..." arguments comic book nerds have. And the correct answer is always "depends on whose comic it's in" ;)

Oh, and nothing negative meant buy the "comic book nerds" comment above. Some of my best friends are comic book nerds :p