Dreadnoughts, Drop Pods, and Daemonhunter mystics

[Lerra]

Here's a doozy! We're got a SM Dreadnought in a drop pod, deepstriking right next to an Inquisitor with 2 mystics.

1. The Drop Pod and the Dreadnought both count as having entered play via Deep Strike. Does the Mystic player get one shot at each, or one shot total?

2. Do the shots happen before or after disembarking? Both rules state that they trigger "immediately."

3. Can the Dreadnought pop smoke as part of disembarking? Does this smoke count as active for the Mystic shots, or does it only come into effect after those shots are resolved?


"If . . . a deep striking unit enters play within 4d6" of an Inquisitor with a Mystic Henchman, both he and the rest of the retinue may immediately take a free shot at them. These shots are taken before the enemy moves, as an exception to the normal turn sequence, and the unit counts as stationary. Aside from this, the normal shooting rules apply."

"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark, as normal."

The way that we played it because we couldn't find an easy answer anywhere:
The Dreadnought hit the table, immediately disembarked and popped smoke as part of disembarking. While both rules say "immediately", we interpreted it as the Dreadnought disembarks first, and then the Mystic triggers so that they can give their shots to the nearby lascannon squad and shoot at the Dreadnought.

The mystics only got one shot because the drop pod and the dreadnought came in together. The Dreadnought did pop smoke while disembarking, but this smoke was not active for the mystic shots, and became active after those shots were resolved (in this situation, the smoldering ruins of the dreadnought were obscured by smoke ;).

We are still very hazy on how this situation is supposed to resolve, however. Thanks for any clarification.

[Nabterayl]

I'm not actually clear on whether the dread is Deep Striking. Ordinarily passengers in a Deep Striking transport (e.g., in a Valkyrie or Land Speeder Storm) aren't Deep Striking; the transport is. The Drop Pod entry does say "A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod ..." but I am inclined to read "via" as expressing the thought that "A unit that enters play in a Drop Pod ..."

Consequently I don't think the rules for mystics allow you to shoot at the passengers of a drop pod. Only the drop pod is Deep Striking, so only the drop pod may be shot at.

That said, I prefer your house rule to my reading of the rules as written. It seems to me best to play the mystic as like an Interceptor gun, even though it isn't written as one, and an Interceptor gun can fire at the disembarked passengers of a Deep Striking vehicle.

As for whether the dreadnought can pop smoke, I'd say no to that on the grounds that the mystic's shot interrupts the normal sequence of play, and smoke launchers don't have an "immediately" to counteract that. If the dreadnought survived the mystic's shooting, I would allow it to pop smoke then, once the normal sequence of play has resumed.

[Lerra]

As far as I'm aware, units that enter play via a drop pod count as having deep-striked, at least for the purposes of movement and assault. You can't assault out of a drop pod, and dreadnoughts can't shoot because they count as having moved "full out".

Here is my understanding of dreadnought smoke from a drop pod: You always have to pop smoke during the movement phase. A dreadnought coming out of a drop pod doesn't get its movement phase, but it can pop smoke while it is disembarking because it is deep striking instead of taking a movement phase. So either it pops smoke while disembarking, or not at all.

That's why we decided that it must pop smoke before the inquisitor shots go off. Either that, or the shots go off before the dreadnought disembarks, and the inquisitor can only shoot at the drop pod.

[docraven]

According to the GW Daemonhunter FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180153_Daemonhunters_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf) it is either pod or unit:

Q. Do Inquisitorial Mystics allow “free shots” at
units arriving by Drop Pod?
A. Yes. The shooting is resolved after the Drop Pod lands and the passengers have disembarked.
Either the Drop Pod or the disembarked unit may be the targeted, but not both.




As for whether the dreadnought can pop smoke, I'd say no to that on the grounds that the mystic's shot interrupts the normal sequence of play, and smoke launchers don't have an "immediately" to counteract that. If the dreadnought survived the mystic's shooting, I would allow it to pop smoke then, once the normal sequence of play has resumed.
For the Smoke I agree with Nabterayl.

[Nabterayl]

As far as I'm aware, units that enter play via a drop pod count as having deep-striked, at least for the purposes of movement and assault. You can't assault out of a drop pod, and dreadnoughts can't shoot because they count as having moved "full out".
Strictly speaking, according to page 95, non-vehicle units count as having moved, and vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed. So the dreadnought could shoot coming out of a pod, absolutely. See page 95:


In that turn's Shooting phase, these units [i.e., units arriving by Deep Strike] can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous Movement phase. Vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed.


Here is my understanding of dreadnought smoke from a drop pod: You always have to pop smoke during the movement phase. A dreadnought coming out of a drop pod doesn't get its movement phase, but it can pop smoke while it is disembarking because it is deep striking instead of taking a movement phase. So either it pops smoke while disembarking, or not at all.
It gets a Movement phase, it just can't do anything much in it. Again, page 95:


In the Movement phase when they [units arriving via Deep Strike] arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle.

So the drop pod gets its Movement phase, during which it Deep Strikes. During the dreadnought's Movement phase, it is only allowed to disembark from its transport. During the shooting phase, the dreadnought can fire, counting as having moved (which it did, by disembarking) - fortunately for dreadnoughts, moving doesn't affect their firing at all.

[DarkLink]

The first two are covered in the Daemonhunters FAQ: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180153_Daemonhunters_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

1. The mystic grants one shot total (or to be more precise, it allows one unit one shooting attack against the deepstrikers, the specific unit depending on the number of mystics).

2. The player controlling the mystic may pick either the passangers or the drop pod to shoot.

3. BRB, pg 62. "Once per game, after completing its move, a vehicle with smoke launchers may trigger them... but will count as obscured in the next enemy shooting phase..."
Smoke launchers only grant you a cover save in the enemy shooting phase, so while a Dreadnought could use them, it wouldn't get a cover save.

[jeffersonian000]

DarkLink is spot on.

SJ

[ductvader]

I have an important question.

What if say...I were to choose to shoot the drop pod.

Seeing as this shooting happens immediately I can only assume that the Dreadnought is still inside as movement would of course be after something that occurs immediately.

Is the Dreadnought destroyed, does it have to take an explosion save, or does it happen to go to the deep strike mishap table? (The latter I believe is not probable.)

Seeing as the Dreadnought/ or troops as I usually come across have not made it to the field I am confused as to how this might work.

[Nabterayl]

In the case of a dread it doesn't matter, because drop pods explode at S3, and thus no exploding pod can ever threaten a dread.

Related question, though - if the pod is exploded, do the passengers still get to disembark, or must they be placed where the destroyed pod used to be?

I'd be inclined to say that they get to disembark still, since they disembark at the same time the pod is exploded ("immediately" after landing, in both cases). Which raises another question: if the passengers are all deployed 2" away from the hull of the pod, and the pod explodes with an explosion distance of 1", are the passengers still affected by the explosion, or no?

[DarkLink]

I have an important question.

What if say...I were to choose to shoot the drop pod.

Seeing as this shooting happens immediately I can only assume that the Dreadnought is still inside as movement would of course be after something that occurs immediately.

Is the Dreadnought destroyed, does it have to take an explosion save, or does it happen to go to the deep strike mishap table? (The latter I believe is not probable.)

Seeing as the Dreadnought/ or troops as I usually come across have not made it to the field I am confused as to how this might work.

What's an explosion save? :p


In the case of a dread it doesn't matter, because drop pods explode at S3, and thus no exploding pod can ever threaten a dread.

Related question, though - if the pod is exploded, do the passengers still get to disembark, or must they be placed where the destroyed pod used to be?

I'd be inclined to say that they get to disembark still, since they disembark at the same time the pod is exploded ("immediately" after landing, in both cases). Which raises another question: if the passengers are all deployed 2" away from the hull of the pod, and the pod explodes with an explosion distance of 1", are the passengers still affected by the explosion, or no?

Read the DH FAQ. Shooting comes after disembarking. You deepstrike the drop pod, disembark, pick which unit you want to shoot, and shoot. Simple.

[rle68]

As far as I'm aware, units that enter play via a drop pod count as having deep-striked, at least for the purposes of movement and assault. You can't assault out of a drop pod, and dreadnoughts can't shoot because they count as having moved "full out".

Here is my understanding of dreadnought smoke from a drop pod: You always have to pop smoke during the movement phase. A dreadnought coming out of a drop pod doesn't get its movement phase, but it can pop smoke while it is disembarking because it is deep striking instead of taking a movement phase. So either it pops smoke while disembarking, or not at all.

That's why we decided that it must pop smoke before the inquisitor shots go off. Either that, or the shots go off before the dreadnought disembarks, and the inquisitor can only shoot at the drop pod.

if you can find where it says a dread can move full out then id agree with you but as a dread can move 6" and fire, riding in a drop pods doesnt change that. from what i know and what i have read the dread can land disembark and then fire he cannot assautl but he can shoot

if you know something i missed please provide page and rule

[Nabterayl]

Lerra's wrong about dreads not being able to shoot after exiting a pod, as I explained (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=21808&postcount=5). A walker exiting a pod counts as having moved at cruising speed (as it has entered by Deep Strike), which would ordinarily mean it cannot fire any weapons, unless the walker was Fast (which no walkers currently in the game are). However, as page 72 explains, walkers always shoot as if they were stationary vehicles, even if they've moved - so even though this is the one time a walker's existence it counts as having moved at cruising speed, it can still shoot as if it were stationary.

[rle68]

as i thought.. thanks for putting it into proper context

[Mycroft Holmes]

3. BRB, pg 62. "Once per game, after completing its move, a vehicle with smoke launchers may trigger them... but will count as obscured in the next enemy shooting phase..."
Smoke launchers only grant you a cover save in the enemy shooting phase, so while a Dreadnought could use them, it wouldn't get a cover save.

I'm confused about why you say a dred will not get a cover save in the next enemy shooting phase; just like any other rhino/whirlwind/landraider/vehicle?

Mycroft

[Nabterayl]

He meant you wouldn't get a cover save against the mystic shots. What DarkLink was saying is that the total sequence goes like this:

FRIENDLY MOVEMENT PHASE
Drop pod carrying dreadnought Deep Strikes.
Dreadnought disembarks.
Dreadnought pops smoke.
Inquisitor with mystic shoots (or inquisitor with two mystics gives his shots to another eligible unit).
ENEMY SHOOTING PHASE
Dreadnought receives a cover save for popping smoke.

[Okidus]

what are you using that can affect a dread anyway?

[Nabterayl]

If the inquisitor has two mystics, how about a triple helping of bastion-breacher shells? ;)

[Strangleweb]

Or Multimelta Gun-Servitors :D

Nabterayl is spot on with his comments about the turn order. I'm a frequent user of mystics, and because they act outside the 'normal' sequence of play it often gets confusing.