Codex Tyranids: Summary in first post

[Madjob]

Lictors and Warriors with 3 wounds? I'm already happy.

Oh, and I might as well point out that this has put the rumor about Trygon/Mawloch in the Fast Attack Slot to rest - it's in the Heavy Support section of the Tyranid store. So people can stop having nightmares about 14 monstrous creatures in a single army. It's also shed some light on why Carnifexes will benefit from 1-3 per slot (aside from the removal of their Elites choice option) - the Trygon would likely heavily compete for slots with just a single Carnifex per slot if its statline turns out to be very good.

[Bigred]

New gribblies...

Advanced order page (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat1430057)

[Melissia]

Dayamn. The quality of GW minis have gone up, especially that plastic trygon...

[Tarrandus]

I was aprehensive about the new codex. Then I saw the Pyrovore. HELL FRIGGIN YES!
Now I'm totaly psyched. Warriors as troops is awesome, improved lictor is awesome, trygon is awesome, Broodlord as troops is awesome, Pyrovore is awesome, I could just keep going and going. Come on January!


The quality of GW minis have gone up, especially that plastic trygon..

Strangley, some of the painting dosn't seem up to par. The hivegaurd and the Pyrvore's box pic (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m730050a_99110106063_TyranidPyrovore2_873x627.jpg) seem pretty flat and low quality for 'Eavy Metal.

[Melissia]

I was just looking at the model itself ot be honest, but yeah, the painting on thta does seem kinda flat compared to the other minis released.

[RocketRollRebel]

Those models just look amazing. I'm really excited to be seeing this stuff on the table and to blow it up :p. Just wow tho.

[WABS McGEE]

looking forward to the release of the new models,already have 13,000pts of nids, with over 550 models. next target will be 20,000pts

[Brass Scorpion]

Note that due to a major flaw in the printing of the new Tyranid books involving missing pages, sample copies and the actual sale copies of Codex Tyranids are delayed. The release of the Codex Tyranids originally scheduled for January 4 has been tentatively pushed back a couple weeks. This also means there will not be preview copies in stores this month as originally planned.

[Duke]

Thanks for ruining christmas Brass, now Im going to have to cry. J/K

Duke

[oldone]

i just been to GW at the weekend and there having a preview at the nids on dec 17th in hull (england)

[Brass Scorpion]

i just been to GW at the weekend and there having a preview at the nids on dec 17th in hull (england)
If major delays in wide distribution of preview copies do occur as GW staff members have been telling me, then that preview may be one of the first. I'm sure a lot of people will be anxious to hear reports from that event. Of course it's always possible that a small number of corrected copies could get rushed through, but the memo staffers got on this announced a delay due to a serious flaw in the books.

[MVBrandt]

The preview copies via black boxes are still planned in stores despite the printing errors. It's just a question of whether it'll be this weekend, or next, etc.

[sirisaacnuton]

The preview copies via black boxes are still planned in stores despite the printing errors. It's just a question of whether it'll be this weekend, or next, etc.

The local store manager near me said he's been told explicitly that the black boxes will not contain a preview codex, and that he was told there wouldn't be one availalbe...the actual codex release date will be it. Has something changed since retailers were given that information (about a week or 10 back)?

[Deej]

Really not liking the fact that the Citizen's Reward thing ends soon, and if I want to take advantage of it, I'll have no idea how useful the units I'm buying will be. Obviously need a Trygon and possibly a Mawloc, but are Pyrovores going to be pants? I mainly play against an Ultramarines army and win 50% of the time, so not sure I need much anti-mech.

[MVBrandt]

You can use the Citizen's Reward thing for GIFT CARDS. So, you buy a $150 gift card, you get $15 voucher.

As for codex - I agree it's unlikely, but I don't think it's confirmed yet. They will have promo materials with lots of rules, though, according to my gw store manager.

[Sam]

I was aprehensive about the new codex. Then I saw the Pyrovore. HELL FRIGGIN YES!
Now I'm totaly psyched. Warriors as troops is awesome, improved lictor is awesome, trygon is awesome, Broodlord as troops is awesome, Pyrovore is awesome, I could just keep going and going. Come on January!


You know, I'm really impressed with the Pyrovore model. I don't like the name, but I like the model, which surprised me because it's supposed to be a variation on the Biovore, and I hate the Biovore model.

[Brass Scorpion]

Tyranid "Black Boxes" are arriving in stores this week. They contain a Ravener sprue and the two Trygon/Mawloc kit sprues. I watched the Mawloc get assembled today. Cool stuff. Of course no Codex is in the Black Box due to a printing error that caused rejection of large numbers of defective books, but the release date for the book only got pushed back to January 16 according to the GW web store, so not a huge delay on release from the original target of the first weekend in Jan.

[Madjob]

Source: Scryer on Warseer.

A trio of page previews of the codex have popped up, but here are the important ones - a nice shot of a fully assembled army showcasing the trygons, and a partial short of the new biovore page. The third is just a preview page of gaunt example paint schemes.

The biovore page confirms that spore mines are now large blast, s4 ap4, do not count towards any mission objectives, and that the spore launcher is an assault weapon. It only details one sort of spore mine however, which is odd unless there is an additional page with rules for the other two sort.

[Tarrandus]

From the 'Instinctive Beheviour- Lurk 'special rule of the Biovore, it looks like there will be different types of behaviours when out a synapse. Kewl. Some 'Instinctive Behaviour- Assault' units could mean you don't need complete synapse coverage.

The hint of the Pyrovore on the main page is interesting too. SOunds like it can gaing bonus shots/streghth from models killed in CC.

And look at the size of those Trygons. I've never seen one before, so dang, thats sucker is huge. For $50 that's a steal.

[miteyheroes]

From the 'Instinctive Beheviour- Lurk 'special rule of the Biovore, it looks like there will be different types of behaviours when out a synapse. Kewl. Some 'Instinctive Behaviour- Assault' units could mean you don't need complete synapse coverage.

Yes, that's exceedingly cool and very in-keeping with the fluff. It's an excellent change!

[the one]

Yet again I was struck down by tecnical difficulties on my computer, but have killed the bloody virus at last. (Had to pay someone to do it). Thanks for your patience everyone, updating now.

[sirisaacnuton]

Color me not impressed by the Biovore. I realize we don't know everything about it (particularly if there are other types of spores or its point cost), but what was in that preview seems underwhelming when you consider that it will apparently be competing with Trygons, Mawlocs, Old One Eye, and Carnifex squadrons for Heavy Slots. A S4 AP4 pie plate doesn't exactly scream amazing in comparison to those other choices.

Oh well, I'm sure anything that didn't have a model before now will be the new hotness, so we'll all have to go buy all the new models. But it would seem that the Biovore isn't the "Tyranid Basilisk" that was rumored.

[The Custodian]

Here you go guys... Feast on these juicy things :D From warseer,


Some of this has been posted before, I'll post it again, plus all I remember.


Generel rules:

Synapse Creatures

units within 12 inches are fearless. No eternal warrior.

Feral behaviour: each tyranid unit not in range of a Synapse creature has to pass a morale check or falls back to instinctive behaviour. Melee-creatures move as fast as possible to the next enemy, while shooting creatures go for the next cover and shoot at the nearest enemies. What they do is said in their entries.

Weapons: Weaponsymbionts are no longer modified by the creature they weald it. There are heavy variants of most of them for the bigger creatures.

Venom Cannon: uses 3" blast now. They suffer a additional -1 penalty against vehicles. So, a glancing hit is - 3, a penetration - 1. You can wrec vehicles with this weapon now =)

Heavy Venom Canon: S9, same as above.

Scything Talons: One pair of tham grants you rerolls on all 1's you roll to hit, two pairs allow you to reroll all of them. Bonesword causes instant death, as long as you do not pass a morale check after suffering a wound. If you bear two pairs, the morale check is made with 3 dice.

Tentacle whip: reduces the initiative of all models attacking the bearer to 1.

Crusher Claws grant d3 additional attacks.

Lots more similar changes.


Biomorphs:

They grant general special abilities now.

Examples: Toxic Glands grant you poisonod attacks (4+), adrenalin grants furious charge, etc. A injector grants Instant death on each to wound roll of 6. I don't remember them all, though.

Units:

HQ: Hive Tyrant, Alpha Warrior, Tervigon. Named ones: A special Hive Tyrant, already mentioned, and a parasite-spreading winged horror.

Hive Tyrant: Initiative 6, Weaponskill 8. Starts of with a pair of cything talons, a tentacle whip and a Bonesword. Might be given wings or heavy carapace (2+ armour save)

May chose from 4 different psychic powers:
Mental scream:
all enemy units within 18 " have to pass a morale check. if they fail it, they suffer the difference between the roll and their morale characteristic as casulties with no armour saves allowed.

Lifeleech: one unit within 12 " suffer D3 autohits S3 AP2. for each casulty they suffer, the Hive Tyrant is granted one life point, up to a maximum of 10.

One that forces a unit to do a morale check or to fall back.

One shooting attack.

He might be given tactical advances, as for example to grant one standard unit outflank and +1 to reserve rolls.

Has lots of wapons available.


The special Hive Tyrant has Weaponskill 9. Wardsaves passed against wounds from him have to be rerolled.

He may buff one unit within 18 inches with prefered enemy, furious charge or two other special abilities.


Alpha Warrior:

Weaponskill 6, which he passes to a unit of warriors he joins.

Tervigon: Creates 3d6 termagaunts with standard loadout each movement phase, even if he's in close combat.

If he dies, gaunts near him suffer heavy losses.

He has his own psychic powers, though i don't remember them.


The horror is a hit and run monster with wings. Each enemy unit outflanking may suffer casualties: your oponent names one model within the unit, it has to pass a toughness test. if it fails it is killed and the tyranidplayer gets D6 Ripperswarms. He may do thesame to victims he kills in close combat.

Each Hive Tyrant may be given a Tyrant guard.

Elite

Hive Guard: up to 3 per unit, Ballistic skill of 4.

their weapons are 24 inches, S8, AP4 and assault 2.


Lictors: 1 - 3 per slot, they act together as one unit. Deployed like marbo.
still grant +1 to reserve rolls. Deep striking units do not scatter if deployed within 6 inces of a lictor, as long as he was on the table for at least one turn.

Ymgarls Genestealers:

They are NOT a named unit. basically, they are Genestealers, which can morph: they may increase their Attacks, Toughness or strength characteristic at the beginning of each close combat phase.

they have the rule "hibernation": note one piece of terrain. whey the genestealers become available, they are placed in this piece of terrain. they may move, shoot and charge.

Unit size 5 - 10, no broodlord for them.

Zoanthropes:
Warp field grants 3+ ward save.
have to psycic powers: warp lightning and warp lance. warp lightning is S6 AP3 3 blaste, while the warp lance is S10 DS 2 Assault 1, lance at 18 inches.

squads of 3.

There is a named Zoanthrope which is a real pain in the *** for everyone, leachinglots of lifepoints with a strong 5 " template shooting attack.

The death leaper is his own elite choice, named. WS9, Initiative 7. Me is deployed like a lictor, but may retreat and be replaced text turn.



Core

Hormagaunts:
Weapon skill 3, S3, Initiative 5, 2 attacks.

Infantery.

May be given poison glands and adrenalin. Unit size 10 - 30

Gaunts:
come with.... no idea what the weapon is named in english, but it's S4 AP 5 assault 1.
For each 10 gaunts, one may be upgraded with a S2 flamethrower that wounds against the strength characteristig.

Warriors: Weapon skill 5, lots of options. 4+ Armour save.
If led by a Alpha warrior they take up his Weaponskill.

Genestealers: Mostly the same as before, less options. Point cost lower than Grey hunters, though. No way to boost their armour save.

Have infiltrators and fleet.

Broodlord comes with his old profile, at a point cost of a longang with a heavy boltgun.
May have two psycic powers: Confusion, which makes both player roll a D6 and add the morale characteristics of a model chosen by the tyranid player. If the result of the tyranid player is the same or higher, the chosen miniature may not attack in this close combat phase.
The other ability reduces the morale characteristic of surrounding enemies by 1.

Assault:
Winged warriors are assault.

Gargoyles: we knewe about them.

Harpies:
The Harpie is a flying, Trygon-sized creature that acts as a bomber. It may deploy Spore mines at a unit it flies over. Is a monstrous creature.

Raveners: come with two pairs of scything talons. May have a thorax swarm: thorax swarms are a special weapon, the ammunition is chosen at the beginnig of the game. 3 different flamer variants.

Heavy Support:
Carnifexes: In squads of three. Have to carry the same loadout.

You cannot boost their initiative, and I am almost sure that you cannor surpass 3+ Armour save.
when charging, carnifexes increase their initiative by t. If you buy them adrenaline ,that grants you Initiative 4 and strength 10. They still have 9 in the profile.
Carnifexes start with two pairs of scything talons and 4 attacks.

Trygon: WS6, S6, 6 Lifepoints and 6 attacks.

Has a shooting attack, S6, ap5, assault 6, 12 " range.

If upgraded to a Alpha Trygon, he has 18 " and assault 12.

Tyrannofex: My favorite. a walking weapon battery.

Weapons are: Fleshborer swarm, S4 ap 5 assault 20

pyroacid spray: S6 ap 4 flamer templated, used exactly like the hellhound.

Capsule cannon: S10, AP4, assault 2, 48 " range.

unneccesary to mention that he's a monstrous creature with high toughness.



Thats all I remember so far. I will try to update it. Enjoy =)

[gcsmith]

sorry but IM LOVING NEW NIDS, found a new 40k army it seems

[Maxis Lithium]

Other stuff that has been said by Bram Guant reagrding his read though of the book:



Ha - I almost forgot the best part.

After HQ, Core, Elites, Assault and Heavy Support, there is still one more to cover.

Dedicated Transports

Yes.

Yes, there are.

Spore Capsule

You may buy a Spore Capsule for lots of units: it may transport 1 Monstrous Creature or up to 20 Infantry.

The Spore Capsule is Deep Striking, and the unit within disembarks. It may neither move nor attack. It may still

shoot.

The Capsule has WS and BS 2. It has Toughness 5 or 6 and 3 Lifepoints. It has, if i remember correctly, 3 attacks S 6.

It has a Assault 6 Strength 6 shooting attack with a range of 6 inches.

They can attack, they simply cannot move. I meant Weapon skill and Ballistic skill are both 2.

The capsule may neiter move, run, regroup or persue a enemy unit. It is 100 % immobile.

I imagine it really being a pain in the *** when you place one directly on a mission objective after you brough up

some lictors near it, so the Spore Pod won't scatter.

DoomedDiceThroer (nice name =D) is right - a barrier of translation. I meant charge.


Oh, yeah. About the great tunnel the Trygon leaves behind: would be really cool if smaller creatures... say... gaunts

or raveners... could follow through it, won't you all say?

[DarkLink]

I like the sound of the spore capsule. Not so much the stealing wounds powers.

[Melissia]

As long as it's seriously expensive for all the crap it has.

[Duke]

So this is all based on someones actual read through of the codex? Or just collected rumours?

Duke

[DarkLink]

I have heard someone claim to have read the codex, and posted a few similar rumors to these. So these may not be exact, but they're probably pretty close.

[Duke]

I hope that some of these aren't right. If only for selfish purposes.

St 10 Lance? Holy ouch

[Scoota]

Oh, come January 16th I will be climbing out of my spawning pool and going all weak at the knees for the next incarnation of the Nids.

I'm a bit peeved though that for what I want to order, it's $100AUD cheaper to order it from the UK (that's including shipping) than it is to go down to my local GW store and buy it.
(Insert pouting fat lower lip here.)

[crazyzombie]

This Came from warseer

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey guys. So I got to do a little light bug related Codex reading today ^.^ I know you have all kinds of rumors collected already but I'm gonna write it

all anyway. This is what i remember from the Codex. As always if you don't belive me your own fault.
And I am doing this after maybe hour of reading. So don't stone me if I get some WS or the names wrong or smth :P

Additionally thank you to all you guys out there who helped me with the proper names. And again, this stuff is true, but it is based on my memory so there of course may be minor mistakes.

I marked the second wave of changes green

Tyranid army rules:
- Synapse creature is pretty much the same except, and I cannot stretch that enough, NO more eternal warrior and before you ask: no nowhere, not on

Genestealers, not on Hive Tyrants not on Trygons NOWHERE
- there are no boss biker like wound groups for tyranids. Squads all need to take most weapon and morphes or none
- Instinctive behavior is split into 2 classes of Tyranids:
Lurkers: instantly take cover and shoot at the next target when they fail their check
Hunters: get the "blood lust" rule from te rulebook (always move and assault next enemy)
- Tyranids don't suffer normal warp attacks when rolling 11 or 66 on Psychic powers
- Tyranids never have additional close combat weapons, their profile is all they get

I'll get all the weapons and morphs out of the way first and ten just list the name in the entries.

Weapons:
(all weapons are assault so I'm not gonna mention that every time), I may have missed one or two simply because there are to many ^^

Venom Cannon:
R 36 S 6 AP 4 Assault 1 Blast
get -1 on the tank damage chart

Heavy Venom Cannon:
R 48 S 9 AP 4 Assault 1 Blast
get -1 on the tank damage chart

Barbed Strangler:
R 24 S 4 AP 6 Assault 1 Large Blast

Stranglethorn Cannon:
R 36 S 6 AP 4 Assault 1 Large Blast

Fleshborers:
R 18 S 4 AP 5 Assault 1

Spinefists:
R 18 S 4 AP 5 Assault X (X= Number of Attacks), always twinlinked

Sting blaster:
R 12 S 5 AP - Assault 1

Spike blaster
R 18 S5 AP 5 Assaukt 4

Someother weirs sounding weapon:
R 18 S 3 AP 6 Assault 2


Texorin Bugs:
3 fire modes, may be fired additionally to all oter weapons
R Flaming S * AP - Assault 1, allways wounds on 2+ against non Tanks
R Flaming S 5 AP 5 Assault 1
R Flaming S 3 AP 6 Assault 1, rending

Death blasters:
R 18 S 5 AP 5 explosive

Biomorphs:

Toxin Sacs:
ALL units may buy these, the squad gains poison attacks (4+)

Adrenal Gland:
ALL units may buy these, the squad gains Furious Charge

Spore launcher:
Grants Frag granades (only bigbugs)

Injectors:
To wound rolls of 6 cause the loss of all wounds instead of one


Felsh hooks:
Weapon R 6 S 5 AP - Assault 2

All kinds of Chitin stuff:
Ranging from 6+ Armor save to 2+

Toxic blood:
When this model loses a wound in melee the model that caused the wound must stand an I check or lose a wound with no AS allowed, tanks are hit on 4+ with a glancing hit

(Eldar scream huray)

Toxic miasma:
All enemy units in CC range with this model must take a T check or lose one wound with normal AS (Eldar don't scream huray any more :P)


Lashwhips:
All enemy units in CC wit this model have I 1

Boneswords:
A model losing a wound by a horn sword must pass an LD test or is killed outright. If the wound was caused by a pair of horn swords he must use 3D6 for the check

Scything talons:
Models with scything claws may reroll 1s to hit, models wit a pair may reroll all to hit rolls

Rending claws:
give rending rule in CC

Crushing Claws:
Give +D3 attacks and lower own I to 1

Regeneration:
At the start of each turn the model recovers a wound on a 6

Wings:
Model flies

HQ:

Hive Tyrant:
- has WS 8
- Old profiles
- No ward save as far as I recall
- Shadows of warp: All psychers using their powers within 12 must roll 3D6, double 6 or 1 still result in an attack from the warp
- comes with scyting claws and can equip about any weapon and morph in the book
- may have two of the following psychic powers for free:
The Horror: One enemy unit within 18 must take a panic test
Life leech: R 18 unit recives D3 S 3 hits no AS, hive regains one wound for every lost wound caused this way
warp scream: R 12 enemy units WS and BS is reduced to 1 for 1 round
Dominate: Hive tyrants synapse range is 18 inches for one round
- May buy any number of these abilities for some points:
Unspeakable Horror: Units wishing to charge or shoot at the hive must pass an LD check or........ well Not shoot/attack
Vicious mind: A core unit may flank and you get +1 to all reserve rolls
Ancient enemy: All Tyranid units within 6 have arch enemy rule
- May still buy a set of guards who stayed pretty much the same except their stuff does different things now (see biomorphs) and they have 2 wounds and get furious assault and blood lust when Papa is taken down

Tervigon:
WS 3 BS 3 S 6 T 6 W 4 I 1 A3 LD 10 AS 2+

- may spawn 3D6 termagants per movement phase which may be activated as normal, but on a double number he can no longer spawn anything fromnow on
- has spike blasters, is monstrous
- termagants within 6 may use his LD and gain counterstrike
- Has dominate psi power and may exchange it for:
The catalist: a unit within 12 gains feel no pain
The force: unit within 12 may run/sprint AND shoot

Alpha Tyranid Warrior:
WS 6 BS 5 S 5 T 5 W 4 I 5 A 4 LD 10 AS 4+

- synapse creature, shadow of warp
- may buy almost everything except the REALY heavy stuff
- tyranid warriors in his unit may use his WS and I

Elite:

Hive Guards:
WS 4 BS 4 S 5 T 6 W 2 I 2 A 3 LD 7 AS 3+
- Carry Harpoons: R 48 S 8 AP 4 Assault 2, don't require LOS (just like swarmer missile systems of the Tau)
- may buy some biomorps like wrenching claws and stuff


Liktors:
- have 3 wounds now
- use cover, move through cover bla bla
- gives +1 to reserve rolls and acts as an teleport homer within 6
- apears anywhere on the table when available but may not move or charge that turn
- has catchers claws and AP and scyting claws

Zorantrophs:
- have only 5+ armor but 3+ ward save
- same profiles
- have two psychic powers
warp lightning: R 24 S 5 AP 3 Explosive 1
Warp Lance: R 18 S 10 AP 1 Assault 1, Lance
- Don't pay for psychic powers any more so relatively cheap

Toxontroph:
- Zorantroph profiles only with 2 attacks
- has tentacle whips and toxic Miasma
- has poison attacks 2+
- all tyranid units within 6 gain a 5+ cover save, defesive granades and every enemy that charges them must test for dangerous terrain

Pyrovore:
- Biovore profile only 3 wounds
- his attacks CC ignore armor saves
- as a heavy flamer
- when killed outright explodes in flaming acid and damages everyone around

Troop:

Tyranid Warriors:
- 3 wounds now
- scyting claws as a basic
- may get all weapons except for the REALLY heavy ones
- may have 2 melee biomorphes (check all the clwas in the list) even boneswords or pairs of boneswords
- synapse creatures ofc

Hormagaunts:
- NO longer may charge 12
- very cheap
- 2A profile
- fleet with 3D6 and use the highest result

Termagaunts:
- even cheaper
- have two individual weapons
Toxic stinger: R 18 S 3 AP 6 Assault 1
Grapling choker: R Flaming S 2 AP - Assault 1, wounds against S not T
- every unit allows one Tervigon to be played as core

Genestealers:
- same profile
- not subjected to instinctive behavior
- may buy a Brood Lord for almost 50 points who has more W, S, T, A, LD, WS....everything ^^
may have one of two psychic powers: one that makes genestealers count as having frag granades and one that may hypnotise , meaning bot roll an D6 and add their LD. If you are higher, the enemy may not attack
may buy some biomorphs like toxic blood

ripper swarms:
- may deep strike
- when they fail instinctive behavior they eat each other (one wound per point failed)
- not very expensive


Fast Attack:

Winged Tyranid Warriors:
- only 5 points more expensive than normal ones but worse AS (5+)
- fly obv ^^
- no options to medium heavy weapons

Gargoyles:
- SO cheap they make stormboyz seem like grey knights against them
- have FANTASY poison attacks in CC
- Termagant profiles
- have bug throwers
- fly ofc

Harpy:
WS 3 BS 4 S 6 T 5 W 4 I 5 A 3 LD 7 AS 4+
- monstrous creature, flyes, has a twinlinked Stranglethorn Cannon
- every unit he charges gains -1 I
- may shoot 3 spore mine on a unit he flyes over (like screamers) which causes a great blast S4 or 5 (don't remember) or three spore mines if he misses

Winged ripper swarms:
- well they are ripper swarms with wings, what else is there to say? ^^

Bulk of spore mines:
- 3-6
- deep strike and... well what do spore mines do? land somewhere and explode near smth
- explode in large blast S 4 AP 4 per guy

Raveners:
- still beasts
- 3 wounds WS 5 and 4 A profile
- scyting claws and wrenching claws as a given with a few options for exchange


Heavy support:

Carnifex:
WS 3 BS 3 S 9T 6 W 4 I 1 A 4 LD 6 AS 3+
- may be taken in squads of 1-3
- pretty expensive
- need I to mention that tey may buy freaking EVERYTING? :P
- no more profile upgrades
- have "Bulldozer Rule" that gives them +2 I on charge
- Have Bio-plasma which is a shooting attack R 12 S 7 AP 2 Explosive 1

Trigon:
WS 5 BS 4 S 6 T 6 W 6 I 4 A 6 LD 8 AS 3+
- may sprint
- may deep strike and leaves behind a tunnel through which other units may deep strike in subsequent turns
- may NOT charge the turn he deep strikes
- bio electric field has R 12 S 6 AP - Assault 6
- may be upgraded to alpha in which case he is a synapse creature, has LD 10, has shadow of warp, and is bio electric field has Assault 12
- slightly more expensive than a carnifex

Mawloc:
WS 3 BS 0 S 6 T 6 W 6 I 4 A 3 LD 9 AS 3+
- may deep strike, if he apears under a unit he places a large template there which has S 6 AP 2 ten moves all remaining models aside and is placed there (not in CC)
- has fall back and sprint rule
- may dig himself in again if he is not in CC in your movement to automaticly reapear in your next movement phase

Biovores:
- pretty cheap
- may shott one spore mine each that explode like descrbed above

Tyrofex:
WS 3 BS 3 S 6 T 6 W 6 1 A3 LD 10 AS 2+
- monstrous
- has Texorin Bugs and ONE of the 3 following weapons :
R 48 S 10 AP 4 Assault 2
R 36 S 4 AP 5 Assault 20
R Flaming S 5 AP 4 Assault 1, is shot like the inferno cannon of the imperial hellhound

Stuff I missed so far:

Mycetic Spore:
WS 2 BS 2 S 6 T 4 W 3 I 1 A2 LD 4 AS 5+
- deep strikes
- may be bought as an transport option for most units (not trigon, Mawloc, Venators, everything with wings)
- may carry 20 infantry guys or one monstrous creature
- may shoot: R 6 S 6 AP - Assault 3
- may not move
- has tentacle whips


Special Chars
First on No EXACT profiles here. I spent more attention on the rest of the list.

The Swarmlord (HQ):
- bigger bader Hive Tyrant
- Carries two enhanced boneswords
- Whirl of blades: has a 4+ ward save in CC
- May use two psychic powers per turn
- may give one unit within 12 counterstrike, furious assault or sharp senses for one round

One Eye (heavy support):
- Carnifex char
- Regenerates on 5+
- has a small temper problem which lets him get additional attacks for hit "basic attacks" and sometimes go berserk[/color]
- units within 12 may use his LD

Horror of Malanai (Elite):
- has stat line pretty similar to an alpha warrior with T 4
- Supersonic scream: Every enemy unit within 6 must take an LD test with 3D6 and lose the amount of wounds they failed it by
- whenever he causes wounds in any way he gains one wound up to the max of 10
- Has S X where X is the number of his wounds
- Psychic storm: can fire multiple DS 3 bolts with S equal to his wounds (so X)

Death Leaper (Elite):
- better Liktor
- has some "disappear again" rule like the old sly marbo
- VERY good at backstabbing people
- VERY good at scaring people from behind for no reason ^.^

Terror of Mantrax (HQ):
- larger gargoyl
- may shoot parasites at enemies tat can turn them into ripper swarms
- every enemy non tank model that flanks must take a T test or become a ripper swarms if they fail

Ymgarl Genestealers (Elite):
- Genestealers which can Either morph up their S, T or A by one at the beginning of their turn
- may start in "tranquil rest" which means they can ambush from a certain piece of terrain instead of beeing deployed (pretty likely to the old catachans)


So that's it from me. If any questions arise please post them or send me a pm and maybe I will not overlook it and answer (if I can). Hope you enjoyed this

[Melissia]

Anyone wanna have a go at properly translating it to English and editing out the WFB references, or should I?

[oldone]

well from these rules i going to go with a list like this

high tryant + revs thing

warrior alpha

3 lictors

vemonthorpe

30 hormagunats

20 termgaunts

10 stealers with brood lord

20 termgaunts

6 warrirors

6 warriors

20 garagolys

6 ravers

trygon

mawloc

3 fexs

this seems ok to me may drop a few things depending on rules though

[Tarrandus]

Erm, is it just me or have the nids been nerfed?!

Okay, I don't really believe that but these stats don't sound too impressive. Seems there is a push for ridiculous special characters, which I don't like at all.

"- Synapse creature is pretty much the same except, and I cannot stretch that enough, NO more eternal warrior."

This is a massive blow to half the nids. Warriors and everything else are now in for some major pain.

"- Tyranids never have additional close combat weapons, their profile is all they get"

Better be a pretty darn good profile then.

"Pyrovore:- Biovore profile only 3 wounds"

$33 paperweight anyone?

[ninja skills]

i like the sound of this, some weaknesses have been added/exgaerated but this is to balance the things that have got better/new, i like that biomorphs and guns don't change statlines now as that could get very confusing mid game as some could easily be 'forgotten' or vica verca.

i don't play nid but face them alot and i'm going to like this new challange. lots of the new stuff seems powerfull but it will be fun to kill them!, and if the guard book is anything to go by the nid one will be balanced too

[crazyzombie]

Well if you only look at the negative aspects then yes they have been nerfed, but me who's less of a pessimist would like to point out the positive side of things.

1. Toxic misma will kill hords quickly

2. physic powers own

3.ws 8 hive Tyrants!

4. Trygons eat everything!

Their are many more high points as well

[Scoota]

Wow - if this is the actual Nid list (and not the mis-print version), then I am looking forward to giving my friends a good working over. SOOOO many little bits of goodness there.

I think everything that has been downgraded (Hormagaunts particularly) will have their points cost represent this, and it looks like GW are trying to make Raveners more of a viable option (although certainly not $$$-wise - I'm happy to use my old metal ones rather than pay Terminator prices for 3).

I hope that the Pyrovore isn't just a Biovore with a different weapon. It looks like it's on a 60mm base in the photos. Maybe I'll have to cross that one off the order for the moment.

Once again, I think I will be losing my soul to the Great Devourer.

[Vepr]

From the sounds of it Cruddace really took the nerf bat to the fex. Base stat line with no way to upgrade it with a base price of 160? So same thing we have now for twice the cost before weapons and no extra wound, armor etc. Woot? :confused: It also sounds like all our uber cheap bugs will still poor a crap ton of wounds over to our bigger bugs so still not supporting the smaller units in CC. Plus Warriors got more expensive for an extra wound and loss of ID. Doesn't sound like they are going to be used anymore this edition than last. I guess we can use them to baby sit gaunt and gants again but now they are just easier to remove for the enemy than before.

[Scoota]

From the sounds of it Cruddace really took the nerf bat to the fex. Base stat line with no way to upgrade it with a base price of 160? So same thing we have now for twice the cost before weapons and no extra wound, armor etc. Woot? :confused: It also sounds like all our uber cheap bugs will still poor a crap ton of wounds over to our bigger bugs so still not supporting the smaller units in CC. Plus Warriors got more expensive for an extra wound and loss of ID. Doesn't sound like they are going to be used anymore this edition than last. I guess we can use them to baby sit gaunt and gants again but now they are just easier to remove for the enemy than before.

Am I missing something? Where did it say that the fexes were 160 points? And then weapons? If that's the case, why would you take them (when you used to be able to get 115 point Elite fexes)???

[Scoota]

From the sounds of it Cruddace really took the nerf bat to the fex. Base stat line with no way to upgrade it with a base price of 160? So same thing we have now for twice the cost before weapons and no extra wound, armor etc. Woot? :confused: It also sounds like all our uber cheap bugs will still poor a crap ton of wounds over to our bigger bugs so still not supporting the smaller units in CC. Plus Warriors got more expensive for an extra wound and loss of ID. Doesn't sound like they are going to be used anymore this edition than last. I guess we can use them to baby sit gaunt and gants again but now they are just easier to remove for the enemy than before.

Am I missing something? Where did it say that the fexes were 160 points? And then weapons? If that's the case, why would you take them (when you used to be able to get 115 point Elite fexes)???

Unless they come with more things that we don't know of yet...

[DarkLink]

Am I missing something? Where did it say that the fexes were 160 points? And then weapons? If that's the case, why would you take them (when you used to be able to get 115 point Elite fexes)???

Unless they come with more things that we don't know of yet...

Someone said that the max of 9 Carnifexes would cost almost 1500pts, at their minimum cost. That breaks down to around 160pts each.

[MVBrandt]

Fexes are at a base 160 each, rendering them basically worthless in terms of competitive build.

Brimstone on WS closed yet another nid rumor thread ... that whole forum gets more fail every day.


There's a lot of worry going about the competitive nid community about the new dex, in how the force org and known point costs all interact in a fashion that's not exactly comforting on the all-comers/mech-heavy scene.

[Madjob]

Am I missing something? Where did it say that the fexes were 160 points? And then weapons? If that's the case, why would you take them (when you used to be able to get 115 point Elite fexes)???

Carnifexes are rumored to start at 160 points base (with 4 sets of Scything talons built in, possibly bio-plasma as well? Supposedly works as a 12" plasma cannon now), with little improvements in their statline aside from a point in BS and 2 more attacks. Oh, and with Ld6 now, no word if they'll require synapse or not, but with Eternal Warrior gone, you're going to see these guys dying to Force Weapons, Mind War, and Instant Death effect weapons in droves.

Mawlochs are set at 170 points, Trygons at 200.

[DarkLink]

Fexes are at a base 160 each, rendering them basically worthless in terms of competitive build.

Brimstone on WS closed yet another nid rumor thread ... that whole forum gets more fail every day.


There's a lot of worry going about the competitive nid community about the new dex, in how the force org and known point costs all interact in a fashion that's not exactly comforting on the all-comers/mech-heavy scene.

Does that make their 5th one so far?

Their rules section is pretty bad, too. All the threads there are "I'm too lazy to look this up, can someone tell me if I get +1A for having a Relic Blade and a pistol" or something like that.


Carnifexes are rumored to start at 160 points base (with 4 sets of Scything talons built in, possibly bio-plasma as well? Supposedly works as a 12" plasma cannon now), with little improvements in their statline aside from a point in BS and 2 more attacks. Oh, and with Ld6 now, no word if they'll require synapse or not, but with Eternal Warrior gone, you're going to see these guys dying to Force Weapons, Mind War, and Instant Death effect weapons in droves.

Mawlochs are set at 170 points, Trygons at 200.

Not that weapons with Instant Death effects are really all that common... and it's not like my Grey Knights have ever had trouble killing Carnifexs. It's Tyrants that are tough, and they seem to have built in protection from our force weapons (I6, Tyrant Guard, and this new 3d6 psychic power thing).

[MVBrandt]

Going through the rumors by unit so far, it's looking like this (my opinion interjected)

Synapse - Now it's just "Fearless." No more immunity to instant death, and it's straight fearless instead of automatically passing LD tests.

Ranged Weapon Symbiotes - As a whole, these are all nerfed. Still a prevalence of mid-strength poor AP weaponry, but with overall far fewer shots per weapon, and all strength/attack characteristics are fixed now, instead of based on creature equipping them. The Venom Cannon is now S6AP4 blast, with -1 to vehicle damage chart rolls. The Heavy Venom Cannon is expensive, limited availability, and S9AP4 blast, with -1 to vehicle damage chart rolls. I would rather have a multi-shot S10 weapon that can't pen, honestly.

HQ
Tyrant - At a significant points cost increase, you get a de facto diresword, and you re-roll to hit rolls of "1." You get similar stats to present, but one higher iniative, and WS8 (which is kind of silly, WS7 makes more sense based on the math of the game itself). You have a ton of options, but most are highly expensive ... they range from psychic powers granting Feel No Pain to a unit for a turn (Catalyst) and other potent psy powers to tactical advantages giving TROOPS units outflank, or adding 1 to reserve rolls, etc. Wings are 60 points. They do not have an invulnerable save, are vulnerable to instant death, and barring expensive upgrades have access only to a 3+ armor save. Tyrant guard are roughly the same, but more expensive (~60 points each). No real reason given about why they're pricier.

Flying Horror - Expensive flying monster w/out a whole lot of durability. Interesting powers and what-not, most effective at shutting down outflankers. Outflanking models all have to take a T test or get turned into ripper swarms, and his victims in combat may get rendered down into rippers also. Again, like the other monsters for the most part in the dex, new cool tricks are heavily offset by high points costs and relatively low durability.

Tervigon - Probably one you'll see most often used. Rumored cost is only around 150 for a 2+ armor save, T6W4 monster with low attacks / ws / bs / I characteristics, but cool "tricks." For one, they are synaptic, for two they are an HQ but also an optional Troops choice. For every gaunt squad you take, you can take a Tervigon as a Troops choice, allowing 5 in an army for a minimum investment of 900 points (750 for the Tervigons, 150 for the minimum 3 gaunt squads at min size). Tervigons spawn 3d6 plain equipment termagants in the movement phase at will, although if they roll a double on any of the 3 dice they lose the power for the remainder of the game. Possible "gaunt farm" lists where you're spawning an average of 53 termagants per turn until your guys get ganked or burn out. Rare case of an affordable monster in the dex ... sort of. Not affordable compared to demon princes, or old nid dex costs, but at least not ridiculous (though his combat stats are lackluster at best).

Alpha Warrior - T5 and W4 with good equipment and options, WS6 and high BS that he confers to a unit of warriors if he joins them. Best use will probably be allocating single S8/9 weapon shots to him so that failed cover saves don't = dead warriors.

Swarmlord - 280 point super tyrant with 4+ invul in close combat but same durability issues at range. No higher toughness or wounds or anything, but WS9 and even higher initiative/etc. Forces 3d6 (or higher) LD test for unsuccessful saves or suffer instant death. Numerous capabilities and psychic powers, with the ability to use two psy powers per turn. At the price, again a big issue of durability with the prevalence of ranged ap3+ weaponry in the game right now.

Elite

Ymgarl Genestealers – Buffed super stealers who can add 1 to their Attacks, Strength, or Toughness at the beginning of every turn. They secretly deploy in a terrain feature and when they come in from reserves move / shoot / assault as if coming on from board edge. AWESOME, RIGHT? But wait, there’s a catch. If the enemy occupies that same terrain piece, they are destroyed.

Pyrovore – Weird choice. Most of the elite guys are sub 100 points, closer to 50 than not, and this includes the pyrovore. Walking, non-fleet heavy flamer toter with hellhound rules for shooting it. Ignores armor saves in close combat with S5, but has only 2-3 attacks and low WS. When he dies, he explodes on a 4+ for S3 AP- hits within d6”. Absurdly bad stats for a new model, kind of surprising. Doesn’t fill any new role not better filled by other Nids, and S3 AP- explosions are more likely to be harmful to nearby Tyranids than to nearby … anything else.

Lictor – Went far cheaper, but lost the key to its effectiveness. Still rending, good stats, and gains a wound, still adds +1 to reserves, and now apparently acts as a teleport homer for deep striking nids. Unfortunately, while it doesn’t scatter on deep strike and just pops up a la Marbo, it also (like Marbo) can’t assault out of deepstrike. Now an excellent unit for showing up as a teleport homer and +1 reserve roller that you get to shoot at for free for a turn, and that can’t jump out and actually do anything. May have a 6” range AP- S6 Assault 1 shot it can fire when it shows up …

Venomthrope – 3 attacks wounding on 2+ in combat; 3 wounds/T4; 5+ cover save for itself and any unit within 6”; defensive grenades for itself and any unit within 6” … no better than a 5+ cover save and vulnerable to krak missiles and anything else, and a giant fire magnet given its buff. Confusingly bad choice, not b/c its powers aren’t very good, but b/c it’s so incredibly fragile and eminently targetable.

Zoanthrope – S10AP1 18” Lance shot still only has at BS3 and requiring a psychic test around 10% chance to kill an AV12+ vehicle … 3+ invulnerable save in exchange for losing the 2+ armor save. 3 wounds but vulnerable to instant death from S8 and higher. Retains smaller warp blast “small blast” ap3 shot. Confusing selection.

Horror of Malanti (or something similar) – Variant Zoanthrope supposedly still under 100 points, though may be under 100 points as an UPGRADE to a Zoanthrope (meaning well over 100 points net). Has some pretty sick psy powers, and can “leach” itself up to 10 wounds; at least one of its powers has a strength = to the number of wounds it has. Like other Zoans, is vulnerable to instant death from S8+ weaponry, and has a 3+ invul (giving it space marine like vulnerability to small arms … in other words, high vulnerability to small arms).

Hive Guard – These guys actually look really good. About 50 points for a T6W2 BS4 2-shot S8AP4 24” range assault weapon that doesn’t require line of sight and can penetrate vehicles. This is the “obvious” transport killing selection for the nids. 150 points will net you 3 guys who can be kept in cover (their armor save is only 4+) and are pretty resilient to all forms of firepower, since they are not instant killable, and since they are high toughness vs. small arms. They’ll earn statistically reliable kills on AV12 and lower transport vehicles. Unfortunately you can only take 3 and they compete for spots with the more intriguing zoanthropes. 4+ armor save makes them far more vulnerable to combat against “tough” opponents.

Troops
Tervigon – see HQ

Gaunts – Nerfed extensively. Instead of a 5 point spinegaunt being S3AP5 twin-linked fleet move through cover and with the ability to get without number, it’s now a 5 point Termagant being S3AP6 not twin-linked not fleet not moving through cover and no without number. Lovely. Apparently other weapon upgrades (including spinefists, lol) are very expensive relative to the cost of the gaunt.

Hormagaunts – “Buffed” in the sense that they aren’t overcosted anymore, but it’s hard to say if they’re really in line with Orks in terms of combat troops. They gain a better / more reliable fleet (3d6 pick the highest), but lose the beast charge. They lose one weapon skill, gain one initiative, and retain same number of attacks. For a few points per upgrade, they can be given furious charge and/or 4+ envenomed attacks. You’ll see them used and spammed, but I don’t know if they’re really any good still. No ability to hide any kind of better weapons in the squad means they will of course be dreadnaught bait, and tougher troop bait. The removal of a fast charge has far reaching implications in terms of the ease with which an opponent can get a reliable rapid fire / flamer blast off at them.

Warriors – Another wound, better weapon skill, similar stats otherwise. 30 points base, with scything talons (a pair of which allows you to re-roll 1’s to hit) and a relatively average anti-infantry gun. While scoring, and spammable, they are now vulnerable to instant death from S8, and there are a lot of S8 guns in the game right now. Synaptic still but highly confusing changes. Continue as a demonstration of the fact that it is nearly impossible to appropriately cost multi-wound models that aren’t hide-able (transports, perma cover save bikes, different weapons for allocation, or independent characters) and that are vulnerable to instant death.

Rippers – By the sounds of it, these are actually worse. Still vulnerable to instant death, still vulnerable to blasts/templates due to being swarms, and if they get outside of synapse and fail their LD test they actually eat each other.

Genestealers – 2 points cheaper with not a lot of upgrade options. One stealer can be turned into a broodlord with similar stats to the old HQ broodlord. Their own “hidden pfist” just … you know … with only S5. Stealers all gain infiltrate, so they can all outflank by default. Probably a much more viable option in anyone’s eyes now, except they can’t get extended carapace, so they are at best a 5+ save. Oh …

Fast Attack
Harpy – Most hilarious ill-conceived entry in the dex. For around 150-160 points you get a flying monstrous creature that poops spore mines on enemies it flies over. Sound good? Think again. T5 W4, 4+ save, vulnerable to instant death. Ooops.

Gargoyles – Legitimate selection. Any to hit roll of 6 wounds automatically. 6 points supposedly. Flying, but no longer fleet. One might argue with their guns dropping to S3AP6, fleet going away, bio-plasma changing to just a wound on 6 to hit and a drop to 6 points = finally costing them properly, only to take away all the things that made them good … glance / immobilize threats to vehicles, high initiative s4 attacks, lots of speed with fleet, and s4 shots prior to charge. Ooops.

Flying Warriors – Warriors with less options for 5 more points.

Raveners – Extra wound, vulnerable to instant death, may be able to enter play via Trygon tunnels. Re-roll to hit, WS5, with rending, and cheap at only 30 points base. Still beast charge and fleet. May be given a cool flamer with 3 fire modes including a rending mode. May be a viable option in some builds. I personally hope so – have always loved ravs.

Heavy Support
Carnifex – As rumored, massive increase in base cost with relatively marginal increase in stats. Can be taken in broods. Base equipment gives them a 12” range plasma cannon shot at bs3, and 5 attacks on the charge that re-roll to hit and are still S9. Highly expensive upgrades to give them a ranged weapon or a better armor save, untenably so perhaps. Can be given furious charge, and by default add +2 I when charging due to being big nasty battering ram critters. So, can potentially have 5 re-roll to hit I4 s10 attacks on the charge. Cost is the big downside, and base durability of only 6/4/3+

Mawloc / Trygon / Trygon Prime – 170/200/? Points each, Mawloc is a “blast you when I show up” burrower/reburrower with average combat stats and t6/w6/sv3+ … Trygon has same stats but better ws/I/attacks and is more expensive, and has a 6 shot s6 weapon. Trygon Prime is synaptic trygon with 12 shot weapon. All 3 apparently protected a la drop pods from deep strike mishap.

Tyrannofex – 250 points of “lolwut?” Kitbash of fex and trygon. You’re paying for 6 wounds, 2+ save, low I, BS3, low attacks, 20 shot S4AP5 gun, S5AP4 hellhound flamer, Ravener flamer, and 2 shot S10 48” AP4 gun. It’s like Cruddace just chucked a bunch of guns and wounds and armor on a monstrous chassis and charged points to match. Inability to voluntarily select many of the crap it has renders it untenably expensive just to have 2 BS3 anti-tank shots, basically. Everything else in the army is better at killing infantry for the points, and all of its OTHER guns are only effective vs. infantry.

Biovores – 35 points each for a S4AP4 large blast that can turn into a spore mine. Spore mines also fast attack choices. Independently selected spore mines deep strike after sides selected but prior to deployment, making them useable as infiltration/dawn of war denial units if nothing else. S4AP4 and no other mine options is a big nerf to “expectations” but better than biovores used to be. May only be allowed to take 1 biovore squad, but can have 3 in it and they operate as a battery. Problematic in that the entire army is anti-infantry by default, and in such a way that it is all moving and operating together. A unit that sits at the back of the board not supporting the main thrust and chucking large blasts that later in the game threaten your own units … is still just as bad as it ever was. No anti-tank capability makes it just throwing 135 points into the hopes of bad scatters for the sake of spawning spore mines to piss people off. Spore mines don’t count as kill points but also don’t contest or capture objectives.


$.02 …
5 x Tervigon lists supported by 9 x Hive Guard to pop transports may be viable
Psychic lists with lots of potent powers may be seen a lot, but will run into trouble against some lists at the tournament level
Numerous units that without seeing the codex to make final decision are just bad … Tyrannofexes, Biovores, Lictors, Venomthropes, Carnifexes, Swarmlords, Harpies, Gaunts, Rippers, Warriors, Pyrovores, etc. are all crap for their points/effectiveness breakdown.


There are a lot of things I’m not touching on, and the dex will be fun I’m sure. Need to see more than just rumors, need to see the actual dex, but felt like sharing my $.02 and passing along some of the rumor mill in the process.



Overall, I don't think Tyranid are going to have any impact on the game at all, other than to encourage baddies who still use footslogging lists and swear they are competitive to mech up along with the rest of the top tier of players. The nids are still utterly lethal to pure footsloggers, but if the rumors pan out as true people are going to take weird nid lists with their elite slots and such dedicated to anti-transport capacity, and ultimately nerf their own ability to deal with infantry to a point, while hoping to be able to pop enough transports to even the odds. Most of the "top tier" armies at present are still going to fare quite well against most nid builds you can put out, so it's going to be up to talented nid players. The "we always have cover everywhere even on a wide open board" Nid Meatball will remain, and the army will slow down even more b/c of a loss of "move through cover" across the board.

[Melissia]

You know, with everyone on the blogs screaming about how they're gonna have to change up their lists and adjusts this on their strategy or change that in their tactics... I just... don't change anything. And just play a bit better. I suppose it's a mixed blessing, having a codex where I'm already stocked up on eveything that's useful anyway. Exorcists and meltaguns for the big guys, flamers and bolters for the little ones...

Ah, a pity I didn't have their problems. I want more choice in my army -.-

[Madjob]

MVBrandt, good summary, but I'd like to point out that Biovores don't at all need to sit back behind your lines, they can march along with the rest of the army (though admittedly they won't run while doing so) while firing the spore mines, as the spore launcher is an assault weapon now.

[Herald of Nurgle]

Doesn't change ANYTHING. I will nom nom them regardless of their choices.

Does make me want to Mech Up, though...

[Tarrandus]

So we lost eternal warrior, fleet, move through cover, 114 point fexes, 2+ saves, and feeder tendrils. What did we get again?

[Vepr]

So we lost eternal warrior, fleet, move through cover, 114 point fexes, 2+ saves, and feeder tendrils. What did we get again?

Really cheap squishy troops that still need synapse to claim objectives and really expensive squishy MC's. Xeno-guard geared towards CC instead of shooting with SM ripoff drop pods.

[Cthulhu]

I was thinking of pre-ordering a few of the new models, but with everything I've been hearing, I'm just waiting to see if the Codex is any good.

GW has such a great opportunity here to create a solid, infantry-based, anti-mech army and yet it sounds as if that may be a pipe dream.

Limited anti-mech capabilities, no psyker defense, no invulnerable saves on their best HQ unit, and yet, the one thing you would expect, dramatic point reductions, don't appear to be coming, in fact it appears in many cases to be moving in the opposite direction. We won't even mention the fact that they've failed to address how Hive Mind is actually detrimental to bug swarms in CC, which in my mind is still one of the biggest problems with bugs.

[DarkLink]

GW has such a great opportunity here to create a solid, infantry-based, anti-mech army and yet it sounds as if that may be a pipe dream.


I don't think there was ever any intent to make Tyranids an effective anti mech army. In fact, I'm pretty certain that mech is intentionally a nidz weakness, while they're supposed to be absolutely devastating in close combat. Due to the increased toughness of tanks in 5th, they had to beef up the nidz AT a little, but they're probably never going to be the best at killing tanks with shooting.

So we'll see if the new CC abilities of the nidz can make up for their weakness at killing tanks. The codex has definitely been completely rebalanced, and we'll see if they've done a good job of balancing it or not in January.

[Cthulhu]

I don't think there was ever any intent to make Tyranids an effective anti mech army. In fact, I'm pretty certain that mech is intentionally a nidz weakness, while they're supposed to be absolutely devastating in close combat. Due to the increased toughness of tanks in 5th, they had to beef up the nidz AT a little, but they're probably never going to be the best at killing tanks with shooting.

Totally agree that they probably won't and should never be a shooty AT army, however, given their total inability to have a mecha aspect to them at all, they could have been developed into an AT army with a little creativity. But if they're not going to make them AT then they should probably be anti-psyker, but they can't do that either, so now they're lash bait while not being effective against mecha. I think I just convinced myself that nids will be garbage, awesome...


So we'll see if the new CC abilities of the nidz can make up for their weakness at killing tanks. The codex has definitely been completely rebalanced, and we'll see if they've done a good job of balancing it or not in January.

As stated earlier in this post I think I've just convinced myself that nids will be garbage since they will be vulnerable to both mecha and psykers while losing much of their ability to close, much less be effective in CC.

My preliminary read on the new nid codex remains: FAIL.

[RocketRollRebel]

There have been some things that do worry me. Like whats this I keep seeing about loss of fleet for a lot of things? Fleshborers lose living ammunition? (that was sooo bad ***).

I'm going to get into the we'll see camp. I was optimistic that it was just going to be a sweet book but yeah we shall see. Its kinda funny how quickly people went from crying "BROKENwafflefries!" to "wow nids are gonna suck". I think we just gotta wait till we see the book and the points costs and what not.

[Vepr]

There has to be some missing information. I also play Orks and Marines but the nids are my main army. Nothing jumps out as scary in this book unless there is a lot we do not know, and really with what we know most of it jumps out as weak. It does sound like we gained a little AT but I am suspect about all the "CC" we supposedly gained unless more information is forth coming.

I am afraid we are going to be stuck with a lot of "Wow that is kind of cool to bad it sucks in play" units. It also does not sound like horde nids are any more viable now than they were before.

[DarkLink]

As stated earlier in this post I think I've just convinced myself that nids will be garbage since they will be vulnerable to both mecha and psykers while losing much of their ability to close, much less be effective in CC.

My preliminary read on the new nid codex remains: FAIL.

I won't necessarily disagree, but I won't agree until I see the codex and see some actual game play results come out online (we only have two local 'nidz players, neither of whom play them very regularly).

I see some powerful stuff, and some visible weaknesses, but until we get points costs and some actual game results we can't really say how stuff will turn out.

[Bigred]

Nice breakdown MVBrandt!

Color me impressed. I know a lot of Adepticon players are looking at this upcoming codex with a critical eye, as its the last updated book before the tourrney.

I agree that every day that passes it seems like its going to roughly balance out to very slightly better than what they have now, if only for the sheer number of units making a "perfect list" more flexible between nid players.

Fundamentaly if there is no real addressing of the anti-mech issue, IG stays at the top of the heap.

[DarkLink]

Nice breakdown MVBrandt!

Color me impressed. I know a lot of Adepticon players are looking at this upcoming codex with a critical eye, as its the last updated book before the tourrney.

I agree that every day that passes it seems like its going to roughly balance out to very slightly better than what they have now, if only for the sheer number of units making a "perfect list" more flexible between nid players.

Fundamentaly if there is no real addressing of the anti-mech issue, IG stays at the top of the heap.

There seem to be a few more options for AT thrown in there, mostly for light vehicles. So Chimera's and Rhino's shouldn't be such an obsticle for 'nidz, but they will probably still have trouble with AV 13/14 stuff.

[Crevab]

Its kinda funny how quickly people went from crying "BROKENwafflefries!" to "wow nids are gonna suck". I think we just gotta wait till we see the book and the points costs and what not.

It's always when points costs trickle in that the change happens. "Woo! My Stormtroopers/Carnifex is better!"
"Wait, they cost how much now? :eek: "

[Xas]

the codex is fail.
the only good thing we got was diresword/power weapon bonesword on basically all but gaunts and stealers for quite cheap and the best anti tank gun in the game (s10 ap1, lance 18") on a relatively tank-proof chassi (zoantrope, bs4 t4 w2 3+ invul).


im going to spend my 400€ "nid money" on a 1 year membership to the gym if this is not just all big hoax by gw :P

[Melissia]

(zoantrope, bs4 t4 w2 3+ invul).

Aint tankproof to me! *destroys it with a single turn of Exorcist firing*

Oh Exorcists, how I love you. You will be serving me well with much giant monster hunting in the future.

[MVBrandt]

You really love to post your exorcist love everywhere ...

An exorcist kills .65 zoanthropes btw per turn, statistically, presuming instant death vulnerability.
3 Exorcists kill 1.46 Hive Guard / turn statistically, presuming perpetual cover due to meatball.

Exorcists are cool and all, but when they are not all that statistically potent against these particular targets, is there much of a need to randomly post in a Nid rumor thread about it? Sisters, esp. mech sisters, are still a highly competitive list and have been for years. Anyone worth saying it to already knows this.

[Melissia]

1: Only in reference to them destroying things. The models themselves I dont' necessarily like (pipe organs aren't that cool...)

2: That's assuming it gets so few shots. I tend to have good luck on rolling for number of shots, four or higher.

At six shots, it will kill on average 1.31 zoanthropes per turn.
At five shots it will kill on average 1.09 per turn.
At four shots it will kill on average 0.87 per turn.

And I have three of these pretty much in every decent sized list. If I want a giant monster dead, it's dead.

3: Because people are wondering how to deal with the new nid things. So I responded with my own way how. If you don't like this, you can go to a nids only forum.

[MVBrandt]

No need to be all sensitive. I wondered what the point you were trying to make was, is all.

As for the exorcists killing big bugs, it's a similar problem of statistically unreliable. I tend to have good luck rolling my cover saves, almost always 4 or higher, so I won't take any wounds to your lucky exorcists ...

Keeping an individual's good fortune out of the equation, you'll statistically cause 2.92 wounds to a covered monster in any given turn with 3 exorcists. Variances do occur :) ... Exorcists are certainly one of my fave units ... hence why I use 3 of them in my own SoB list.

[Melissia]

If you want to do real statistics, assume 3.5 shots on average, not 3. If an Exorcist fires it cannot have 0 shots, so it's 1-6, not 0-6, and therefor the halfway marker would be 3.5.

And there's no alternative to Exorcists for Sisters, so you're going to have at least two of them regardless, so the point is more how they're best used-- which is against giant monsters. Mind you, first thing that's going down is that coversave providing giant monster, and then it's the zoanthropes.

[MVBrandt]

My statistics are being done with 3.5 shots, not 3, naturally. Assumptions, assumptions, M ...

The cover save is being provided by gaunts in front of 9 elite mid-size zoanthrope types, who are themselves providing cover saves to the monsters behind them. Standard Nid meatball. You don't get rid of the cover save until you strip all of the gaunts, then all of the middle-bugs first.

[Cthulhu]

3: Because people are wondering how to deal with the new nid things. So I responded with my own way how.

That's like wondering how you're going to beat up on the mob of cripples coming to get you. The new nid army sounds like that guy with the scimitar from Raiders of the Lost Ark that Indy just shoots in the head.

Here's how various armies will deal with nids:
Chaos will lash them and blast them with Oblits/Defilers before they get anywhere near the front line.
Orks will run them over with Deffrollas while frying them with embarked Burna Boyz and blast them into oblivion with Lootas.
IG will roast them with Battlecannons and Hellhounds.
Space Marines might have a little difficulty, but judicious application of the TH/SS Termi and LR will probably carry them through with a little help from the Sternguard.
Eldar will use Dire Avengers/Fire Dragons/Wave Serpents/Fire Prisms...as usual. Is there another Eldar list?
Necrons might lose, but what else is new and who cares?
Tau might have a little trouble, but I suspect Marker Lights and Seeker Missiles will carry them through.
As Melissia stated, Sisters, with their massed ranks of Flamers and S8 weapons should have little difficulty dealing with bugs.
Daemons might have a little trouble since they effectively play in a very similar fashion to bugs.
Dark Eldar, to be honest, I don't know them well enough to comment, but I suspect they won't have too much trouble.

[Vepr]

That's like wondering how you're going to beat up on the mob of cripples coming to get you. The new nid army sounds like that guy with the scimitar from Raiders of the Lost Ark that Indy just shoots in the head.

Here's how various armies will deal with nids:
Chaos will lash them and blast them with Oblits/Defilers before they get anywhere near the front line.
Orks will run them over with Deffrollas while frying them with embarked Burna Boyz and blast them into oblivion with Lootas.
IG will roast them with Battlecannons and Hellhounds.
Space Marines might have a little difficulty, but judicious application of the TH/SS Termi and LR will probably carry them through with a little help from the Sternguard.
Eldar will use Dire Avengers/Fire Dragons/Wave Serpents/Fire Prisms...as usual. Is there another Eldar list?
Necrons might lose, but what else is new and who cares?
Tau might have a little trouble, but I suspect Marker Lights and Seeker Missiles will carry them through.
As Melissia stated, Sisters, with their massed ranks of Flamers and S8 weapons should have little difficulty dealing with bugs.
Daemons might have a little trouble since they effectively play in a very similar fashion to bugs.
Dark Eldar, to be honest, I don't know them well enough to comment, but I suspect they won't have too much trouble.

With the rumored inability to do anything after deep striking other than short range anti-infantry attacks like flesh hooks most things we drop in will just get toasted where they stand. There is a good chance we will literally have to count on bad rolls by our opponent for anything to actually survive a deep strike. Maybe the Tyrant ability mixed in with the lictor +1 will make deep strike more reliable so our stuff does not come in piecemeal and get vaporized before doing anything.

[DarkLink]

That's like wondering how you're going to beat up on the mob of cripples coming to get you. The new nid army sounds like that guy with the scimitar from Raiders of the Lost Ark that Indy just shoots in the head.

Here's how various armies will deal with nids:
Chaos will lash them and blast them with Oblits/Defilers before they get anywhere near the front line.
Orks will run them over with Deffrollas while frying them with embarked Burna Boyz and blast them into oblivion with Lootas.
IG will roast them with Battlecannons and Hellhounds.
Space Marines might have a little difficulty, but judicious application of the TH/SS Termi and LR will probably carry them through with a little help from the Sternguard.
Eldar will use Dire Avengers/Fire Dragons/Wave Serpents/Fire Prisms...as usual. Is there another Eldar list?
Necrons might lose, but what else is new and who cares?
Tau might have a little trouble, but I suspect Marker Lights and Seeker Missiles will carry them through.
As Melissia stated, Sisters, with their massed ranks of Flamers and S8 weapons should have little difficulty dealing with bugs.
Daemons might have a little trouble since they effectively play in a very similar fashion to bugs.
Dark Eldar, to be honest, I don't know them well enough to comment, but I suspect they won't have too much trouble.

And since you forgot, Daemonhunters will use Land Raiders and suicide IST melta/plasma squads to deal with high initiative MC's, GKT's for low I MC's, and Incinerators and Land Raider Crusaders for hordes.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Does anyone here know if there is any truth to the rumor from the leaked playtest where extended carapace made it so models have +2 to their save for the purposes of negating AP (the example given is a carnifex with a 3+ save needing to be hit by an AP1 weapon to lose its armor save).

I haven't seen any confirmation of this anywhere except in a playtest ruleset found by my friend. Seems like it would solve a lot of the carnifex complaints, heh.

[Tarrandus]

That sounds cool but really weird. It seems most of the major rules are known so I don't know the likelihood of something like that not being mentioned. I would certainly be nice and clear up some of the fears I have about 160 pnt. fexes.

[DarkLink]

Does anyone here know if there is any truth to the rumor from the leaked playtest where extended carapace made it so models have +2 to their save for the purposes of negating AP (the example given is a carnifex with a 3+ save needing to be hit by an AP1 weapon to lose its armor save).

I haven't seen any confirmation of this anywhere except in a playtest ruleset found by my friend. Seems like it would solve a lot of the carnifex complaints, heh.

Sounds bogus to me. It'd be almost like giving them 3+ Invulnerable saves.

[Xas]

(zoantrope, bs4 t4 w2 3+ invul).

Aint tankproof to me! *destroys it with a single turn of Exorcist firing*

Oh Exorcists, how I love you. You will be serving me well with much giant monster hunting in the future.

I said realtively tank proof.

compare it with sternguard, firedragons, veterans against "common" tanks like leman russ, vindicator and the like.


on the other hand your exorzists would first have to survive a tripple salvo of these to the sides (remember, they can be droppoded) and I see no competitive list without at elast two or all three elite slots filled with 3 droppoding zoans.


the codex didnt get weak, just crap. powergaming will be viable but all the "nice" lists will suffer (either from lacking anti tank of small bugs, instant death to medium bugs or super expensive monsters without a chance. how much is that exorzist? 135 pts ish? it will easily kill a 200 point bug EACH TURN! if left alive).

[Melissia]

If all else fails, against a powergaming Tyranid army I can just ally in one of those infamous Daemonhunter Inquisitors with two mystics for cheap (~30 points) and just shoot down your annoying and expensive drop pods as they come in.

[Duke]

We should try not to get too ahead of ourselves... Talking about counters to things that don't even exist yet, lol.

One big thing that could change the whole market is price... We see what might happen with rules, but price can tottally change everything so be careful when treading into theoryhammer zone.

Duke

[DarkLink]

If all else fails, against a powergaming Tyranid army I can just ally in one of those infamous Daemonhunter Inquisitors with two mystics for cheap (~30 points) and just shoot down your annoying and expensive drop pods as they come in.

Heck, you can ignore the drop pods and kill the unit inside.

[Xas]

If all else fails, against a powergaming Tyranid army I can just ally in one of those infamous Daemonhunter Inquisitors with two mystics for cheap (~30 points) and just shoot down your annoying and expensive drop pods as they come in.

I'll trust in 3++ saves.
heck, the old 6++ has braught me far enough, so a chance four times as big is allways good :D

[Tarrandus]

Any one else see the battle report/list in the new White Dwarf? I confirmed some point costs. I'm not sure what the policy is here, so feel free to take this down.

We already know some of this stuff but:

Venomthropes can be taken at least 2 to an elite slot. They cost 10 point more than a current Tyrant Guard.
Hive Guard are 5 poinst more than a current Tyrant Guard.
New Tyrant Guard are 15 points more. You can take more than one.
Trygon is the same as 2 thunderfire cannons.
Carnifex with Stranglehorn cannon is 20 points cheaper than the trygon.
Mawloc is 30 points cheaper than Trygon.
Death Leaper is 60 points cheaper than Trygon.
Warriors can be equipped with deathspitters, one of the warrior broods had 3 with a deathspitter and 1 with a venom cannon.
Hormagaunts are the same as a current spinegaunt. There was either a typo or they can take some kind of 5 point upgrade.
The Tyrant came in at 20 points more than the Trygon, but I can't remember the build.

[Xas]

Hormagaunts are the same as a current spinegaunt. There was either a typo or they can take some kind of 5 point upgrade.


that 5 point upgrade is easy to explain:

a) gw thinks 6 is "half as much" as 10 (hormagaunts now cost half as much as with the last dex!) -> yes, they utterly fail at math!

b) they can get two upgrades which together cost 4 points (obviously).

[Tarrandus]

The list gave the point cost for the whole unit of 15 hormagaunts. They cost 5 less points than a current carnifex chassis. So either they meant to put 16 homagaunts, or there is a 5 point squad leader upgrade or something.

[xanthaous]

I know that Hormagaunts get 2 attacks to make up for sything talons no longer confering +1A, but do hormagaunts have the new sything talons?

[DarkLink]

I know that Hormagaunts get 2 attacks to make up for sything talons no longer confering +1A, but do hormagaunts have the new sything talons?

I don't see why they'd make scything talons "reroll some hits, except the ones that hormagaunts have."

[xanthaous]

I don't see why they'd make scything talons "reroll some hits, except the ones that hormagaunts have."

My thinking is that they might say that the talons on the hormagaunts are not really "sything" talons, but the tyranid equivilent to a single basic CCW.

[Tarrandus]

From the battle report in the WD, I remember a blurb on Hormagaunts, and I'm pretty darn sure they had Scything Talons and the re-roll.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

I think much of my fellow threadgoers here should take a look at the latest Warseer thread on this subject under their rumours section. It seems to have significantly more information than this thread does, and addresses a lot of concerns (for instance I saw someone mention a page back that the nids have no psychic defenses, but shadow in the warp is still there, albeit changed slightly).

Check it out.

[Vepr]

I think much of my fellow threadgoers here should take a look at the latest Warseer thread on this subject under their rumours section. It seems to have significantly more information than this thread does, and addresses a lot of concerns (for instance I saw someone mention a page back that the nids have no psychic defenses, but shadow in the warp is still there, albeit changed slightly).

Check it out.

They keep closing those threads. I used to like Warseer but I find myself going there far less mainly due to the mods. They are insufferably full of themselves, act like petulant children, and they are only consistent in their inconsistency when it comes to their rules. I would rather wait and get information on other boards rather than give them more traffic.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

True. I asked a question about a Tyranid rumour there and the thread was quickly quashed, with the mod giving me some wise *** lip about how I should have read the bit at the top of the forum about how to ask questions there.

The sticky in question instructs you to try and ask the question in an existing rumour thread. Since they were all closed, I posted a new question -- which is exactly what the sticky tells you to do.

Of course I dislike lax mods more than strict ones (some of the threads that crop up here are just trash), but that's a preferential thing.

[Duke]

back on topic anyone?

I was wondering if the new dex allowes for 1+ trygons

duke

[Tarrandus]

Since its confirmed you can have a Trygon and Mawlock in the same list, I would bet you can double up on trygons. With the fex nerf I see triple Trygon/Mawloc lists being the new nidzilla.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, I think GW's gotten completely rid of the 0-1 options in all codices (aside from Special Characters, of course).

Edit: removed the 0-1 restriction, not gotten rid of the unit itself

[Havik110]

Confirmed from black box codex. Carnifex is base 5 toughness. :(

[FoxPhoenix135]

No, I simply refuse to believe T5 carnifexes. Carnifexes only as tough as plague marines, but costing as much as a tank? I just don't buy it.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

Hmm... I'm just wondering how effective a triple Mawloc list will be, mixed with a bunch of horde. Meh, I need to see the stats first anyway XD

[Havik110]

No, I simply refuse to believe T5 carnifexes. Carnifexes only as tough as plague marines, but costing as much as a tank? I just don't buy it.I said base toughness 5. They can be upgraded to 6 but they get expensive. Remember there are greater unclean ones that don't get the toughness they used to have and at this point the only units with base toughness of more than 6 are the nightbringer, deciever, wraithlord, and talos. (old codices).

[Duke]

I have a feeling that the bugs are going to be more like Space wolves... In that you can build some pretty disgusting things, but have to pay for them.

Sorry for the ignorance, but how has the fex been nerfed? do we know anything about points costs?

Duke

[MVBrandt]

Um, I call baloney on T6 Fex until the dex is in my hand or a screenie is up. 160 points for S10 bait cannot be real.

[Havik110]

Um, I call baloney on T6 Fex until the dex is in my hand or a screenie is up. 160 points for S10 bait cannot be real.

how much does a demons demon prince go for? More than a carnifex that until now was VASTLY SUPERIOR...

This is what GW does to each codex, they say okay what do people play with and not play with. okay how do we make them buy more models? If you already own 6 carnifexes how do they make more money? They make you buy 100 more gaunts. They do it with every new codex.

Guess what, it you want the killer MC, you need trygons now...

the game changed and zilla nids is more cost prohibited, it can be done, 3 groups of 3 fexes (but they are kitted the exact same way in each brood so no screwy wound allocation like nob bikers or blood crushers) but at base T5 say hello to demolisher cannon...guess what, you need cover now, and then you need to keep crap from shooting, you cant just walk them up and not be scared any more...its called tactics...zilla nids players never needed them before, now you do....

but yes, saw the dex yesterday...base t5 is a fact...still cant instagib them with with dark lances but meh....

[Aradai]

I thought there was no codex due to a printing issue. When did you actually see a black box codex? I was at a GW store this past weekend and still no codex.

[HsojVvad]

I second it. From reading many people about the black box, there was not One codex in there. I am not saying you didn't read it, I just find it suspicious that you would have an actual codex in your hands.

What kind of codex did you read if I may ask?

[Herald of Nurgle]

Obviously one of the failed Chinese ones :P

[Vepr]

Unless there is some missing information I don't see why anyone would take a fex now other than just liking the model. It sounds like tooling them up enough to make them effective puts them over the cost of a Trygon. The Trygon sounds like it has so much more utility plus the model is great so there is no reason to take a fex.

The reason behind it might very well be to sell models but it is sad that it came at the cost of making one of the more iconic nid creatures a questionable point sink. We can now take more of them but they are twice the cost and less effective.

I would rather them have made it so you could only ever take 3 of them and make them expensive but make them the unholy terrors they are supposed to be. T5 on a base 160 point model that does not get an invul save? Really? :confused:

[MVBrandt]

how much does a demons demon prince go for? More than a carnifex that until now was VASTLY SUPERIOR...

This is what GW does to each codex, they say okay what do people play with and not play with. okay how do we make them buy more models? If you already own 6 carnifexes how do they make more money? They make you buy 100 more gaunts. They do it with every new codex.

Guess what, it you want the killer MC, you need trygons now...

the game changed and zilla nids is more cost prohibited, it can be done, 3 groups of 3 fexes (but they are kitted the exact same way in each brood so no screwy wound allocation like nob bikers or blood crushers) but at base T5 say hello to demolisher cannon...guess what, you need cover now, and then you need to keep crap from shooting, you cant just walk them up and not be scared any more...its called tactics...zilla nids players never needed them before, now you do....

but yes, saw the dex yesterday...base t5 is a fact...still cant instagib them with with dark lances but meh....

It's an irrelevant rant from the get-go, b/c you compare it to an eternal creature with far better stats. Dark Eldar will still get pummeled by nids, regardless of fex results. I just find it unbelievable that they would put 2 T5 ID vulnerable MC's at 160+ points in the same dex, due to the fact that they simply won't be taken (to include the brand new Harpy entry). They want to sell ALL of their models, including new ones.

[Ghoulio]

I dont understand why people keep posting that the Carnifex is T5, because he isnt!. On pretty much any forums (other then this thread) says that the Carnifex has virtually the exact same stats as he has now (except WS3/BS3). So he is going to be Str 9, T6, 4W, 3+ armor save for around 160pts (180pts with the stranglethorn cannon). He isnt THAT bad, even when you consider his points costs. My only real wish at this point was the venom cannon wasnt a steaming pile of goat poo :P

[acuk]

Unfortunately several other forums also have rumors about t5, i don't know if its true and i hope not but it is out there, but with a bit of luck it will be a net rumor we will laugh about come mid Jan.

[DarkLink]

Well, some of the people posting T5 rumors claim that they've seen the codex...

[Madjob]

Well, some of the people posting T5 rumors claim that they've seen the codex...

I could claim to have seen the codex as well, that doesn't mean you should believe me.

The two reliable sources that have provided leak news in the last few weeks have not said the carnifex is T5. So far I've seen TWO unreliable sources (IE they've never posted rumors before or have never been proven right) claim the carnifex is T5.

[DarkLink]

I could claim to have seen the codex as well, that doesn't mean you should believe me.


Hence the trailing off with the ...

I don't think it likely either. T5 with a possible T6 upgrade just doesn't fit with all these other rumors we're hearing.

[sebi81]

i´ve seen the codex in my local games workshop in germany at saturday. and i can confirm that the carnifex ist toughness 6 and strength 9 with 4 wounds.

the reason you still would like to take a carnifex instead of a trygon may be the trygon only having strength 6... so the carnifex ist still your best bet to take out a land raider in close combat!

[Herald of Nurgle]

i´ve seen the codex in my local games workshop in germany at saturday. and i can confirm that the carnifex ist toughness 6 and strength 9 with 4 wounds.

the reason you still would like to take a carnifex instead of a trygon may be the trygon only having strength 6... so the carnifex ist still your best bet to take out a land raider in close combat!
Damn Straight.

Now to see fifty Hive Fleets pop up at my LGS lol.

[Duke]

@HoN: I know that I am going to be starting one... I just need to base my genestealers from space hulk, lol

Duke

[The.Justinian]

Damn Straight.

Now to see fifty Hive Fleets pop up at my LGS lol.

All the angst over a T5 carnifex has placed us in a hole, not speculating, and not thinking all that much on what else that's happening. Even if he were T5, (which we are beginning to believe there is ZERO chance of being the case), he'd likely have the "Needs AP1 to crack" rule that has floated about...the possibility of which still intrigues me. The carnifex fight seems to be over, though, and at S9T6A4Sv3 he's still a beast. He's still the best with long range weapons, still versatile while being able to crack tanks, and still sweet looking.

Tactically, they'll stay in their old roles, of fire support or spearheads, while the trygon/mawlock is likely going to take on a surgical strike/greater daemon behavior. Nids will be interesting.

What interests me most, however, is the idea of Tervigons in the troops slot. A reread of the Termagant entry's rumors said 'each unit allows one Tervigon to be selected as troops.' Why hasn't this blown our minds yet? The survivability and distraction value of an MC, while gaining an objective point.

I suspect that the 3nid/3terv build is GW's target moneymaker for veterans. He'll be a second wave release, and once everyone has grasped the level of awesome that a scoring MC is, a great many players will shell $55 or whatever his kit price is, in multiples.

Some thoughts on this one, I think, are more in order than worries over how good the beloved fex will be, especially since we know he will be at least 'sort of good.'

[nidz]

ok thats it, listen a T5 carni is still a nasty creature u need to get a strength 10 weapon to instant kill him that means, plus carni are good at otehr thigns then assaulting with beign able to take 2 large weapons they can sit back and shoot with a venom cannon and a barb strangle and give cover fire, plus its a model that will draw alot of fire away from everything else cause of all the wounds it has. I am a tyranid player i own 4 carni's right nwo and to be honest i barely ever play more then 1 and so stop complaining about the lower toughness that isnt anything to worry about since we r now getting lance weapons on the zoanthrope plus, the trygon and another creature that can do 20 shots, so the carni isnt the big nasty bug it used to be so waht its still an OK shooting model.

[gcsmith]

at T5 it needs strength 10 not 11 to insta gib

[HsojVvad]

The Tevrigon is a MC? Wow I missed that one completely. I thought it was just a HQ choice or Elite choice. So many rumours changing I never kept up with him. Not shure how good he will be, I tried mock rolls with 3 dice, and kept getting doubles 50% of the time. The people who said 44% it will roll doubles is correct.

So at best we will get 1-2 broods at most, but maybe get lucky with rolls :D with them. Not shure how they would fair by themselves once they can't Regurgitate any more 'Gaunts.

Being a MC what special rules do they have? What page of the rule book can I look at for MC? I am more of a modler and painter than gamer, but hoping to change that soon.

[MVBrandt]

The Tervispam list goes along the lines of 5 Tervigons with adrenals/poisons/catalyst so that they can cast FNP on units and confer poisoned weapons and furious charge on nearby termies, 3 10-man termagant squads to enable them, a trio of fexes, and a 9-bank of hive guard. 5 Tervigons statistically spawn about 100 termagants in a huge number of broods over the course of a battle going full bore, and nothing says you HAVE to yet (time will tell) in kill point missions. Based on that, you're going to see a pretty ridiculously potent list with 5 monstrous synaptic creatures, the ability to spam feel no pain around the army (rendering lead gaunt squads relatively flame proofed), etc. 6 monstrous creatures, 9 T6 hive guard that can be kept covered behind gaunts and can be given feel no pain for 4+ re-rollables against most fire, and tons and tons of gaunts that are all poisoned weapons and furious charging? Sign me up. That list comes to around 2k points.

[HsojVvad]

The Tervispam list goes along the lines of 5 Tervigons with adrenals/poisons/catalyst so that they can cast FNP on units and confer poisoned weapons and furious charge on nearby termies, 3 10-man termagant squads to enable them, a trio of fexes, and a 9-bank of hive guard. 5 Tervigons statistically spawn about 100 termagants in a huge number of broods over the course of a battle going full bore, and nothing says you HAVE to yet (time will tell) in kill point missions. Based on that, you're going to see a pretty ridiculously potent list with 5 monstrous synaptic creatures, the ability to spam feel no pain around the army (rendering lead gaunt squads relatively flame proofed), etc. 6 monstrous creatures, 9 T6 hive guard that can be kept covered behind gaunts and can be given feel no pain for 4+ re-rollables against most fire, and tons and tons of gaunts that are all poisoned weapons and furious charging? Sign me up. That list comes to around 2k points.

LOL, and how much will it cost me to field now eh? $$$ :eek:

[MVBrandt]

Heh, depends on who you are. I have literally hundreds of gaunts lying around doing nothing.

15d6 gaunts on the first turn even if they all roll doubles is a pretty hefty boost to total army points vaule.

[Herald of Nurgle]

The Tervispam list goes along the lines of 5 Tervigons with adrenals/poisons/catalyst so that they can cast FNP on units and confer poisoned weapons and furious charge on nearby termies, 3 10-man termagant squads to enable them, a trio of fexes, and a 9-bank of hive guard.
5 Tervigons statistically spawn about 100 termagants in a huge number of broods over the course of a battle going full bore, and nothing says you HAVE to yet (time will tell) in kill point missions.
Based on that, you're going to see a pretty ridiculously potent list with 5 monstrous synaptic creatures, the ability to spam feel no pain around the army (rendering lead gaunt squads relatively flame proofed), etc. 6 monstrous creatures, 9 T6 hive guard that can be kept covered behind gaunts and can be given feel no pain for 4+ re-rollables against most fire, and tons and tons of gaunts that are all poisoned weapons and furious charging?
Sign me up.
That list comes to around 2k points.
Ouch. Guess that's the new 'nooby powerlist' that'll be going around, then.

[MVBrandt]

... "Nooby Powerlist?"

[DarkLink]

Lists that noobs think are unbeatable, but really aren't too bad. Like nob bikerz. They're tough, but now everyone knows how to beat them.

[MVBrandt]

Was just surprised at the use of the phrase already. There are no broken/unbeatable lists in 40k, or ones even close to it. There certainly are a lot of subpar players, though ...

[DarkLink]

The only problem with the Tervispam list is that you're spending a lot of points on things that don't cover the nidz weaknesses. You get a fudgeton of bodies, but you're not going to have too many points or slots left over to deal with Land Raiders. And imagine how much fun a few LRR would have with a 52+ guant horde. It would probably be a fun game, though. I know some of my favorite games were when my Grey Knights were outnumbered as much as 7 to 1 by orks.

[Herald of Nurgle]

... "Nooby Powerlist?"
It's a nooby powerlist because it's been made based upon rumours which no-one has had a chance to verify, relying on attributes that may also be totally wrong, and using models that until now haven't existed. Plus, it's been posted on the internet who recently was involved in what was a 2 page purge of items on this summary topic.

Yeah. Things don't look good for Tervispam.

[MVBrandt]

The only problem with the Tervispam list is that you're spending a lot of points on things that don't cover the nidz weaknesses. You get a fudgeton of bodies, but you're not going to have too many points or slots left over to deal with Land Raiders. And imagine how much fun a few LRR would have with a 52+ guant horde. It would probably be a fun game, though. I know some of my favorite games were when my Grey Knights were outnumbered as much as 7 to 1 by orks.

6 monstrous creatures will have a field day with LRR's coming point blank to their gaunt screen.

[DarkLink]

6 monstrous creatures will have a field day with LRR's coming point blank to their gaunt screen.

Well, it seems as though 5 of those monstrous creatures won't have the best of stats, and take up a lot of points. The Tervigon is supposed to have a low number of attacks (albeit at a high strenght), which isn't good when you need 6's to hit. And with limited points to spend on anything other than all those Tervigons and such, the list might have trouble dealing with the things that gaunts and Tervigons aren't good at killing.

But, yeah, LRR's probably aren't the best example. They're not exactly good at killing monstrous creatures.

[Vepr]

The thing about LR's though is that they rarely come at you empty. The LR's should be able to pull up, obliterate the gaunt screen and then disgorge TH-SS termies on the MC's.

[Doomgrin]

The thing about LR's though is that they rarely come at you empty. The LR's should be able to pull up, obliterate the gaunt screen and then disgorge TH-SS termies on the MC's.

Actually the termies have to get out first before you fire. Assault ramp just allows to to assault the turn you disembark. Also at anything over 6" you are only firing one weapon using power of the machine spirit.

[Vepr]

Actually the termies have to get out first before you fire. Assault ramp just allows to to assault the turn you disembark. Also at anything over 6" you are only firing one weapon using power of the machine spirit.

It depends on who gets assault etc but if the gaunts are out front as a screen you are likely to get a least a turn of firing on them or more if you back up before worrying about assaulting the MC's.

[MVBrandt]

From someone who ran a Nid meatball for 4 years,k you're not going to roll up an d get the termies stuck with what you want to unless the nid just blows.

Also, the list posited has 5 tervigons and 3 carnifexes ... with 5 attacks re-rolling to hit each at s9+2d6 vs. armor, the raiders aren't going to survive getting close even if they move 12.

[Vepr]

Unless I am mistaken no synapse in the list? Is that to avoid no retreat wounds from spilling over to the MC's?

[MVBrandt]

Tervigons are synaptic.

[The.Justinian]

It's good to see that someone has already worked out the maximum logical drop of Tervs on the field, and that people have already thought out how it might be good, and bad. I've done some thinking over the past few days over the wars on the spike rifle/strangleweb/FB/DS/SF ranges and attributes, and I've come to the conclusion that the Spike rifle (the other upgrade weapon) is a small template weapon (with the stats stated in previous rumors), for the following reasons:

1) Symmetry. You can choose to have a flamer or a longer range template grenade launcher. The existence of the one option suggests the existence of the other. Cruddance likes symmetry in his builds, balancing out the threefold mirror of the Hellhound variants, and to a lesser extent, the LR galaxy of choices.
2) Texture. An upgrade weapon that merely causes more dice rolling, or has a marginal chance to do more hurty fire by rending, doesn't have an appreciable effect otherwise. A template weapon provides more standoff firepower threat to termigants, a tactical role that they're being groomed for by Cruddance if I judge correctly.
3) Tactical role. A long range 'grenade launcher' type weapon would fit nicely into the life of gaunts hunkered down in an objective wood.
4) Usefulness. The strangleweb, with its abiility to autohit under the template (even if its' at 5 or even 6 to wound) will end up being a much better option than a gun that reeks worse than the base (as it is currently rumored).

The only other possibility is that it's a sniper weapon, to provide gaunts with some pinning ability, but given that Pinning works on <MEQ armies it's not terribly relevant in the current era of uncompetitive/unupdated Xenos codices. The likelihood that this is true, in the current climate, thus seems low.

I assert this to be true based on current knowledge and the logic of the points above. Argument and debate welcomed.

[Madjob]

Merry Christmas everyone - a German copy of the codex has been leaked onto the internet. I've only seen a few pages translated, so I'll give details on those for now.

The other Instinctive Behavior besides Lurk (possibly called Devour?) grants Rage to the unit and specifies that they cannot shoot, but may run so long as the model moves in the manner specified by Rage (ie towards the closest enemy unit in sight). We already knew about the Rage part but the no shooting/rage run info I hadn't heard before so I figured I'd mention it.

Devourers (normal AND monstrous creature versions) apparently force a morale test if a unit is
wounded by one, and it must be taken at -1. This is going off my own intuition as to what the german means, this isn't an actual translation, so I don't know details.

Warriors - 3-9 per brood, 30 points, WS5 BS3, S and T the same as before, W3 I4 A3 Ld10 Sv4+. They come with scything talons and devourer standard, as well as Shadow in the Warp. They can replace their devourer for a pair of spinefists, another pair or scything talons, or rending claws for free, or a deathspitter (now 18" s5 ap5 assault 3) for 5 points. They can exchange their existing scything talons (not a pair that they've recieved for replacing their devourer) for rending claws (5 pts), a pair of boneswords (10 pts), or a bonesword and a lash whip (15 pts). 1 Warrior per brood can take a Venom Cannon or Strangler(?) for 15 and 10 points respectively (remember that these are the 'light' variants with reduced strength and range). Adrenal Glands and Toxin sacs cost 5 points each, I assume this is per model and I doubt you can mix it up. My personal thoughts here is that while t4 30 point models with a 4+ save is still a risky investment, the relative cheapness of some of these upgrades (with the exception of the special weapons, which I find to be over-costed) makes up for it somewhat. Flying Warriors confirmed, they have a 5+ save and presumably no way to improve this. 35 points a pop and are in fast attack.

Alpha Warrior - WS6, BS4 S5 T5 W3 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv3+, 80 points. Same standard loadout as a regular warrior, except there's something under special rules (leitbestie) that went untranslated, though this might be the rule that buffs a Tyranid Warrior unit he joins that was rumored. It also has the Independent Character rule, so you don't have to purchase a Warrior brood along with him. Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands are 10 points each instead, and it can take Regeneration for 10 points as well. His weapon choices and costs are otherwise identical to a normal Warrior.

Genestealers - Same statline as we're used to, 5+ save with no upgrade available, 14 pts. They can be accompanied by a Broodlord for 46 points, who enjoys WS7 S5 T5 W3 I7 A3 Sv4+. He seems to have lost his Inhuman Strength and is stuck with just Rending Claws at first. All of them come with Fleet, Infiltrate, and Move Through Cover. The Broodlord can take Scything Talons for 2 points, an Injector (instant death on a wound roll of 6) for 10, and Acid Blood for 15 (automatic wound against whichever unit is attacking the Broodlord for each unsaved wound inflicted, no saves). Genestealers can take Scything Talons for 2 points, Adrenaline Glands for 3 points (I really like this, furious charge on genestealers is a horrifying concept), and Toxin sacs for 3 points (also awesome, rerolling wounds on anything with s5 or less means more chances for rending). No translation on his psychic powers but existing rumors are likely accurate.

Pyrovore - Very strange. Existing statline rumors pretty much hold true - including the I1 A1 part, and is 45 points. However his weapon, which is simply a heavy flamer with no extra range like a hellhound, behaves oddly. Everytime he is wounded, he automatically fires it and 'explodes' like a vehicle, (s3 ap- within d6"). He has the Devour instinctive behavior but has a special exception allowing him to still fire his flamer. The best I can make sense of this guy is that you're supposed to charge him in and force the opponent to deal with him until he finally explodes a final time and dies.

Hive Tyrant - WS8 BS3 S6 T6 W4 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv3+, 170 points. Comes with Bonesword and Lashwhip, as well as a pair of Scything Talons. Has Shadow in the Warp standard as well as two out of four Psychic Powers (dominate, life drain, psychic scream, warp scream). Bonesword/Whip can be swapped out for another pair of scythes for free, scything talons can be swapped for either a twin-linked deathspitter or twin-linked devourers with 'monstrous creature ammo' (18" s6 ap - assault 6). Both options are 15 points. Important to note is that in this case it is perfectly legal to swap ANY pair of scything talons, including the ones that replaced the bonesword/whip, so Dakkarants are still legal, albeit much more expensive. The next part specifies that only ONE scything talon pair can be replaced by a heavy strangler or venom cannon for 20/25 points respectively. He can take 3 special non-psychic powers that are each 25 points (these are the rumored abilities like granting outflank, +1 to reserves, and so on). Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Acid Blood, Injector, Toxic Miasma, Regeneration - 10, 10, 15, 15, 15, 20 points respectively. It can take 1 of the following torso options - thorax swarm (flamer template rumored to be available to Raveners), extended carapace (2+ save presumably), wings, for 25, 40, and 60 points respectively.

Carnifex - rumored statline is true. 160 points, Broods of 1-3. Has +2 I charge, Fearless, 2 sets of scythes standard. Can replace one pair with crushing claws for 25 points, adds d3 attacks each round but overrides the built-in charge bonus. Can replace both pairs of scything talons with the twin-linked monster devourers for the same cost as a Tyrant (15 points), Heavy strangler/VC costs are also the same but limited to 1 each. Spore cysts - 5 points, count as frag grenades, adrenal glands and toxin sacs are 10 points each, bioplasma (12" plasma cannon) is 10 points, regeneration is 25 points. If the brood numbers 1 carnifex, it can take a mycotic spore. Head options (excluding regenerate) and tail weapons are gone.

Tervigon - WS3 BS3 S5 T6 W6 I1 A3 Ld10 Sv3+, 160 points. Has "thornvolley" weapon standard, 18" s5 ap4 assault 4. Has synapse, shadow in the warp, dominate. Can take scything talons for 5 points, crushing claws for 25. Adrenal glands and toxin sacs are 10 points, acid blood, injector, toxic miasma 15 points, regeneration 30 points. "Thorn Volley" can be replaced with "Thorn Blast" for free, same range and strength, no AP and is large blast. Can take catalyst or the force psychic powers for 15 points each. "Brood Father" special rule grants his leadership to all gaunts within 6" as well as the bonuses from toxin sacs and adrenal glands equipped on the tervigon, as well as counter-attack. However if the tervigon dies, all gaunt units within 6" suffer 3d6 s3 ap- hits. Spawning gaunts works as rumored, they must be placed within 6" of the Tervigon. If terrain/models prevent placement the model is lost. Gaunts spawned are the default profile in the codex.

Trygon/Trygon Alpha - everything rumored is pretty much true. Has Deep Strike, Fearless, Fleet, Instinctive Behaviour - Feed (Trygon only), Synapse Creature (Trygon Prime only), Shadow in the Warp (Trygon Prime only). The following wording is translated as close to what will likely be in the english codex as possible. Subterranean Attack: If a Trygon (or Trygon Prime) following the rules for Deep Strike will be placed in impassable terrain or on another model (friend or foe), reduce the deviation distance to the minimum that is necessary to not touch the obstacle. After the Trygon (or Trygon Prime) has emerged, mark the position of the creature's base with an appropriate marker. Any Tyranid infantry units (no creatures with wings) arriving in the following turns from reserve may use the network of tunnels created by the Trygon (or Trygon Prime) and come out of the tunnel exit, rather than entering the battlefield normally. If a unit is deployed this way, the entire unit is placed so that all models are in legal formation within 6 inches of the marker. If models cannot be placed because of impassable terrain or enemy models within 1 inch, these models are destroyed. The unit may not move in the turn in which they appear, and may not assault, but can shoot or run as normal. Only one unit may enter the battlefield via each tunnel exit.

That's all I've seen so far. Source is anonymous, but all thanks and credit go to his translation.

*Edit: Included cost for Pyrovore and details on Trygon special rules. Also added details on Devourers and confirmation of Flying Warriors.

[DarkLink]

Missile launchers might get more popular, thanks to the relatively cheap str 8 Ap 3.

[sirisaacnuton]

Thanks for all the info. I'm curious if anyone has any info about the point costs of the "special characters"...Old One Eye, Doom of Malan'tai, Parasite of Mortrex. Feel free to post them in terms of other units like on the front page if it's more acceptable to do it that way. I appreciate all the work everyone's putting in to share this with people!

[Crevab]

One one Eye =LR Crusader with multimelta
Malan'tai = basic marine squad
Parasite= thunderfire+predator. also, he's not an MC, but he is an IC. Big friend for the gargoyles

[sirisaacnuton]

Didn't even catch that about the Parasite. Cool stuff. Malan'tai is cheap enough to be worth trying out in a drop pod, it seems like. He looks like he could be amazingly damaging and annoying, if only he were T5 or an EW...hope he can make a lot of 3+'s against Missile and Melta.

Thanks for the help!

[Darkwynn]

termagaunts are 5 poitns and horamgaunts are 6 points. that is without upgrades I might add.


Flavor of the month for the nids I see people running Terivgons, alpha warriors, Termagaunts, Harpies and trygons.

Ditching hive tyrants, Carnifxes and the lictors still.

[MVBrandt]

People will not be running Harpies. At T5, 4+ save and no eternal they are horrible.

[Darkwynn]

People will not be running Harpies. At T5, 4+ save and no eternal they are horrible.


I don't think they are horrible, if you set them up and use them correctly they can be very efficient. Popping around in the backfield and playing pop shots they can be very effective. Then moving them over units when its time can be devastating.


Toughness 5 they are not going to die that often from Instant death. You will have one or two Str weapon on your opponents side and if you are smart enough you can keep the harpy away in distant.

Now that being said, I do like having three hive guard for the price of the harpy to get 6 Str 8 Ap4 shots.

I am going to be writing a post on some of the units that I view as stars and some of them as Point pit falls this upcoming week.

[Crevab]

Are you sure? Those posts always seem to go over so well ;)

[Bigred]

Oh you know Darkwynn, he loves the drama...

I'm surprisingly going to be going Tervigon/Alpha Warriors/Termas myself. So now I need to find the best conversion idea for making a Tervigon...

[Darkwynn]

Are you sure? Those posts always seem to go over so well ;)


one way or another someone will have their arms up flailing around the room screaming at their computer because of me :)

[Vepr]

If rumors and conjecture hold true it is rather sad to see the Tyrant, Carnifex, and warriors go the way of the dodo. It makes sense from a sales perspective for GW but still depressing. I was thinking we would get a lot of viable choices from Cruddace not no brainers and "you can always play them in friendly games..." units.

Instead of Nidzilla everyone running nids will be Tervigon, Hive Guard, gaunt spam it sounds like. :(

[MVBrandt]

You'll actually want a couple of fexes in the meatball of a Tervigon list IMO. That list in a perfect world is going to want to have 4-5 tervs, 2-3 fexes, 9 hive guard, and a relatively minimum # of starting tervs. Spam gaunts up to fill out the ball and keep fexes as your anti-landraider/etc. when things get sticky. At 5 s9 attacks that re-roll to hit even aagainst vehicles, they have synergistic value in such a list.

[MVBrandt]

I don't think they are horrible, if you set them up and use them correctly they can be very efficient. Popping around in the backfield and playing pop shots they can be very effective. Then moving them over units when its time can be devastating.


Toughness 5 they are not going to die that often from Instant death. You will have one or two Str weapon on your opponents side and if you are smart enough you can keep the harpy away in distant.

Now that being said, I do like having three hive guard for the price of the harpy to get 6 Str 8 Ap4 shots.

I am going to be writing a post on some of the units that I view as stars and some of them as Point pit falls this upcoming week.

I don't think it's instant death alone that makes the Harpy questionable. It's one toughness less and one armor save less than the Carnifex at the same price points-wise, and we've all seen the feel on that.

The problem lies in the fact that 4 marine heavy bolters kill one statistically if it's not covered. There are plenty of other analogues, such as multilasers from chimera walls.

Vindicators and S10 guard weaponry are all becoming more common in the competitive metagame.


In any event, having looked at the German translated pdf now, here's my $.02 to help the rumor mill for any that haven't read it ...

HQ
Hive Tyrant - Some cool abilities, mainly the psychic scream and the "addons" such as +1 reserves. Unfortunately, he's a combat monster that's either highly vulnerable flying, or highly slow guarded. What made the Tyrant "great" in 4th edition wasn't just that they were cheap, but that you could equip one with very high potency ranged weaponry and advance w/ the meatball. *IF* he got into combat he was competent anyway and that was nice, but he could earn his points back if he didn't. I think he was made that way b/c as a higher points cost combat monster, he wasn't really a good option. I think we're seeing that again. As cool as some of his tricks are, the tyrant isn't going to see a lot of tourney level play as a result of a "bad" "x" result in the equation of defense+offense+points efficiency. People will put him to good use on occasion, don't get me wrong. He's just not at all "optimizable." The incredibly high base cost renders him such.

Swarmlord - LOL. A 280 base points w/out guard (and you'll need to buy him guard) walking target who only has any real durability if he gets in combat, and otherwise is just as durable as a regular hive tyrant? He has a ton of cool rules, but he's like Logan Grimnar without the ability to attach him to a squad and stick him in a land raider or drop pod. In other words, he's crap.

Tyrant Guard - No appreciable change, but more expensive, and with the increased Tyrant cost even more "mandatory" for walkers. Anything with "Tyrant" in the name for HQ got a raw deal with this dex.

Tervigon - New "best" choice in the game. For 195 points you can field a 6 wound creature that's probably going to be able to get cover behind warrior size models (based on hunched looking gaunt pooping picture and the fact that until we get a real model we have creative license), is a monster and so can effectively deal with most vehicles when they get close (esp. av10/11 rear), is fearless and projects synapse and shadow in the warp, has furious charge and poisoned attacks, and we're not even started on what makes him cool. Most important about this guy is that at that points cost he has Catalyst, and gives poisoned attacks, counter-attack, and furious charge to all gaunt units with a model w/in 6". Catalyst being key, b/c when you have a list full of monsters and little bugs and a bunch of T6 transport-popping hive guard with feel no pain every time you want to shoot at them, as well as cover ... you find yourself questioning the validity of shooting the Hive Guard. This is going to be a keynote combination / punch, purely because of the fact that the Hive Guard (I'll get to them) are the* key unit of our codex. Extremely statistically reliable, almost impossible to "stop" transport killers. The new dex is lethal to infantry ... you can almost presume that when units get out of their transports, they're going to do one thing at most and then die, no matter what they are ... Nob Bikers, thunder hammer terminators, thunderwolves, whatever. All are basically toast, no worries, no afterthoughts. Tervigon not only provides you with a gaunt-pooping, often SCORING monster, he's synergistic with the keynote of the Hive Guard due to Catalyst, which is a freakin' awesome psychic power. What else can flame-proof gaunts (gaunts get feel no pain against flamers and heavy flamers)?

Alpha Warrior - This guy will actually be pretty decent, in a number of builds. The main reason for this is not offensive potency, but the fact that you can attach him to Warrior Squads and "proof" them against some lascannon/battlecannon/meltagun/etc. wounds. Alternately, you can stick him in a giant gaunt squad for reliable/non-targettable synapse. There are a lot of potential uses, most of them asymmetrical. He's not a hammer at all, even fully upgraded. He has cheap regen too (10 points), which might be a cute way to occasionally get "back" those instant death avoidances.

The Parasite of Mortrex - In lists where you are using a large mob of gargoyles, take this guy. Clever combat masters will be able with large garg broods to always avoid getting that fist base to base with the Parasite ... rather, they'll always be able to assault one of their regular gargs into base contact with the fist, so that it can't punch their 160 point T4 "hero." He'll make people - esp. guard - think twice about outflanking hijinks, and the ability to turn enemies into rippers is just fun. It's always fun to turn things into other things after all ... gift of chaos, zogwart, etc.

Elites
Hive Guard - Best unit in the Codex. They aren't combat capable, really, but they aren't combat "bait" either ... i.e. not a lot of things will just run right through them, so they'll usually survive a charge that gets pulled off on them long enough for you to bail them out with your plethora of combat-capable units (every single unit in the dex used properly is capable at combat when factored with their points cost and other uses). What makes them amazing is a) they knock things out of transports with extreme statistical reliability; b) they can be combined with the infantry and monstrous cover rules as well as feel no pain to create an "everyone has cover and my transport killers have feel no pain" meatball combined with termagants and tervigons and fexes; c) they're probably the best statistical AV13 and lower popper in the game now, for their points, and for the fact that they don't have to take a psy test to use their ability. T6 also makes them immune to basically everything when combined with cover save rules and (again) FNP. Just as template weapons and ordnance barrage weapons never actually bothered a good Tyranid in 4th edition, the same will be true in this edition, and Hive Guard's yet one more reason why.

Lictors - Better, but I think that the prevalence of melta makes them more questionable. One can argue that you're happy to have them shooting at your "stealthy" lictors in cover w/ meltaguns, but I think for the lictors to do much of value they'll be doing it anyway. Smart players aren't going to WANT to get close to you, which means they won't have anything else to shoot at, and so it's "Marbo syndrome," but without a demo charge. That is to say, that there will be plenty of things hanging around in their transports and other things not firing anyway, who can shoot at the lictors b/c "why not." If you just want to keep the lictor with your main army and pop him out where they are ... well, there are better choices than a lictor at this point. I think they're BETTER than they were ... cheaper and more durable. Unfortunately, losing the ability to assault out of deep strike is both fluff STUPID (A HA, I SURPRISED YOU, NOW SHOOT ME FIRST AND THEN I SHALL CHARGE YE) and bad for their viability.

Death Leaper - I actually like this guy. There are a couple of elite choices that are pretty damned cool, but they compete with hive guard, which means they won't see a lot of tourney use I don't think. His special rules are all cool enough that you don't have to drop him and hope he doesn't die like you do with the regular Lictors. "It's after me!" will be really useful for opponents where the army uses a certain character's leadership, and especially useful for psyker armies, where you can just permanently reduce a psyker's (eldrad? rune priests w/ jotww? etc.) LD by d3 at game start. Combined w/ the new shadow, this will enable you to actually shut down key psykers that would otherwise do some nasty things to you. It's also great at overcoming the plethora of psychic hoods you'll see in the tourney scene due to the powers of the new nids and wolves. At 140 points he's as expensive basically as a full hive guard squad, and he competes with them for a slot. For that reason, he won't see as much use as he otherwise should, b/c he's badass. Wish they made lictors fast attack ... that slot is kind of "meh."

Venomthrope - The first true "WTF?" choice other than the Swarmlord maybe, but far more so. It's a T4 (means vulnerable to everything S8+) model that gives an ENORMOUS FREAKING BUFF to every bit of the army near it (defensive grenades, 5+ cover, dangerous terrain to charge at). It costs as much as a Chimera. It's totally worth throwing a few missiles at them to get rid of them, or really throwing whatever at them, and at T4 it is NOT a fire soak ... at all. And it competes with Hive Guard for a slot (sensing a theme here?). Plus they make you pay points for various combat abilities on a 2 attack model with WS3. You also are paying for BS4 in the base cost but it has no shooting attacks. This units SUCKS.

Zoanthrope - Cool, better than they were. At no 2+ save and only 2 wounds each they are bolter bait ... ask yourself if you would pay 65 points for 2 basic space marines with a heavy weapon and their regular armor ... you wouldn't, b/c they'd just die. With only a 3+ invul, the zoanthrope at only 3 wounds is small arms bait par excellence, and its best weapon is within small arms range. They also ... *drumroll* ... compete for a slot with hive guard, for basically the same roll. You're going to need to rely on MONSTERS to crack open Land Raiders. Don't take Zoanthropes hoping for them to do it. Especially don't take them at a tourney scene that will be heavy with PSYCHIC HOODS AND RUNE PRIESTS ... and other things. These guys are a really unfortunate red herring, b/c at a new and improved BS4 and a modest 60 points, they on face look like the best anti-tank weapon in 40k, which statistically they are. Unfortunately, they're just too fragile and will get shut down by certain armies you run up against who just hood or rune weapon away all their casts.

The Doom of Malan'tai - This guy actually has a really potent value, and it's not his SX AP1 large blast at all. Every turn, w/out a psychic test or anything, in the shooting phase, every enemy unit within 6" of him has to take a LD test on THREE d6. They suffer a number of wounds THAT CANNOT BE SAVED (except invul) equal to the amount they fail the test by. Each wound gives Malan'tai some wounds of his own, but don't get too excited about that part, he's T4 with a 3+ invul only. Most importantly, you can give him a landing spore. So, think about that. Now realize he competes with Hive Guard for a slot and be sad that you won't see more use of the MYCETIC SPORE OF DOOM (aka, my drop pod just landed in the middle of your army safely, start taking LD tests on 3d6).

Pyrovore - Cool new model, worst rules of any model in all of 40k. This is officially the WORST MODEL IN THE GAME rules wise. Completely confused. It has a heavy flamer, TWO WOUNDS (not 3), a 4+ armor save, and OMG IT IGNORES ARMOR WITH S5 ... but it has a single WS3 attack. And if you kill it, it blows up in a fashion that is most statistically harmful to ... gaunts and grots. Yay.

Ymgarl Genestealers - Cool rules, potent unit, kind of expensive, totally boofed the job when they say that if you can't deploy the ENTIRE unit in the prenominated terrain piece due to enemies, it's simply destroyed. Competes with better ELITE choices ... EVEN if you discount Hive Guard. Not as bad as the Pyrovore or Venomthrope, but not great either, at all. Regular genestealers are about as likely to get off a charge before dying, for cheaper, and Lictors are actually better "surprise" units just b/c they don't run the risk of dying due to enemy .... movement ....

TROOPS

Warriors - At first, I was like "omfg this is terribul INSTANT DEATH OHNOEZ." I still kind of am ... I think "warrior centric" armies would be bad. Nevertheless, with a fair number of useful weapon options and a lot of close combat punch possible for not too much (re-rolling all rolls to hit due to 2 pairs of sytals is actually "free" at the cost of your shooting weapon), a small squad or two of Warriors in some builds will be useful, esp. if protected by a the inclusion of an Alpha Warrior to shrug off things like Vendettas. Think of them like Tau Crisis Suits that are more combat oriented and SCORE.

Hormagaunts - Cool, good. They compete with Termagants, which for FREE in the builds where you'll see lots of Terms can have COUNTER-ATTACK, FURIOUS CHARGE, AND POISONED WEAPONS. So, compare 5 point poisoned, furious, counter-attacking, s4 ap5 shooting termagant to 6 point non furious non counter attacking non poisoned non beast charging hormagaunt. Do the math.

Rippers - No. Funny, but, no. Still don't score, still vulnerable to instant death, no cool special rules, and they actually eat themselves outside synapse ... prior to this they actually behaved outside of synapse. LOLfest unit. Stupid.

Genestealers - Good unit, by all counts. 140 points for 10 of them, they can outflank or infiltrate, they're fleet, they have their same stats albeit the 5+ save. Thumbs up. Also, for 3 points, they re-roll to wound vs. marines. Dat's cool.

Landing Spore - Cool, T4 makes it kinda not like a drop pod in that it isn't going to stick around, but at least now Nids can deep strike.

Termagant - YAY! When I first hear "not fleet, S3 AP6 weapons" I thought "omg world ending." But, with rumors, some things are wrong (like S3 ap6, sorry they're still not fleet tho). More importantly, TERVIGONS (themes return)
1) Every Term squad = 1 Tervigon can be bought as a Troop. This is very good.
2) Term squads near Tervs with proper equipment = poisoned attacks, furious charge, counter-attack. This is exceptional.
3) Tervigons poop tons of Terms statistically if you have 3-5 of them, so you don't need to buy more than 30 or so Termagants, and you don't need to upgrade any of them, so they stay at 5 points. This is awesomesauce.

FAST ATTACK

Winged Warriors - 5 points more than regular warriors, worse save, wings. I don't think we'll see a lot, but they're cool.

Raveners - With the new models, I was really hoping for something special here, but all I really see is more of the same. They gained an extra wound and got a little cheaper, and that is good, but they gain no ability to assault the turn they arrive (via Trygon hole or something), they are squishier against high strength and just as squishy against low strength. Basically, if you liked and used Raveners in 4th edition rules with 5th edition, you'll still like and use them, but more. If you didn't, you might think about using them, but then won't use them. The models are cool, the rules are just not really anything special. Points are better spent elsewhere. If you have a few to spare on T4 3 wound models with combat potency, you'll probably buy Warriors.

Flying Rippers - Are you serious?

Gargoyles - 180 points for 30. You'll at least think about taking a squad w/ the Terror of Mantrax, and deep striking them on a Lictor, at some point in your new 5th edition Nid career. You'll also then think about putting feel no pain on them when they land, so that they're actually hard to kill. You'll giggle maniacally about it at least once while you do it.

Harpy - Terrible unit for 160 points. Terrible, terrible, terrible unit. T5 W4 Sv4+ with only 2 attacks yet combat enhancements like the frag/initiative thing. BS3, WS3, S5 ... ugh. This guy is utter crap. They must have gone "ok he's worth 100 points, but we have to give him wings, how much are those for the Tyrant ... ok 160 points." This choice along with the Pyrovore makes me wonder about Cruddace's qualification for writing an organic-based, non-mech list.

Spore Mine Cluster - If you have points and slots to spare, these may be worth taking with the extra points, just a few of them, b/c they can totally screw over certain opponents' plans in Dawn of War missions, and where they like to infiltrate, or just in general. Since you can't come w/in 1" of an enemy model, I'm pretty certain that means you can't DEPLOY w/in 1" of them, so have fun and deep strike them all over places you DON'T want your opponent to be. Depending on the points level, you're basically paying for the ability to manually shape your opponent's deployment. Their explosion is irrelevant. Their ability to deep strike after selecting deployment zones and turns but before deployment is killer good.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Carnifex - Like with the Warriors, I'm actually thinking this guy has a place, especially in something like the gaunt farm. At 5 attacks on the charge with S9 and re-rolling to hit, he's statistically reliable against FAST MOVING HIGH ARMOR VEHICLES (sounds like: Land Raider), and of course against anything smaller also. Combine them with a list that has a bunch of high wound scoring monsters that can grant feel no pain to key units at key times, and is able to reliably deal with everything BUT land raiders, and I'm sensing some synergy. They don't get bio-plasma in the base cost. They're overcosted, and I don't like that one bit, BUT they may have some synergistic use in the new dex. Keep them the hell away from missiles if they don't have cover, terminators, etc. Basically, if you were one of those great nid players who ran a 4th ed into 5th ed. meatball where your fexes always had cover and you didn't have any trouble earning their poitns value b/c you played them so well, you're going to be pushed and challenged MORE to earn their value in this dex, but you CAN do it if you play them right.

Old One Eye - Sorry, he kinda sucks. No more durable than a regular fex, with better stats but not better for what the fex does, and a ton more expensive. LD bubble ability seems kind of silly in the world of synapse. He has better regen but he doesn't have a whole lotta wounds ... woulda made more sense and still been cost proper if he had 6w instead of 4. I'm confused by him. Again, I wonder what Cruddace is thinking when he writes this, or if they even really playtest it.

Biovore - Still crap. Sorry, it is. Your Tyranid army will laugh infantry in the open OFF THE BOARD. As such, spending 135 points on a unit that can't fight in combat if it has to when most of your other units either excel at it or can shoot and do it effectively is dumb.

Trygon / Trygon Prime - Trygon Prime is overcosted for what you get IMO. Trygon is cool but no assault out of deep strike blows. The tunnels are ultra gay. Like, horrible bad useless crap. The odds and fact that you can't do it the turn he arrives and the fact that you can't assault out of them, and the fact that an enemy can just go DRIVE ON TOP OF THEM to shut them down, and many other things makes them look like a rule that was written to be cool but failed on the practicality front. Dumb da dumb dumb dummmmmb.

I think the Fex is actually probably better than the Trygon, just b/c he's better at cracking open vehicles, and can fight all the things you'd ever want the Trygon to fight in combat. The only monster in the book that's really built to tackle things like Terminators and Nob Bikers and such is the Swarmlord, so ... yeah ... it's not like you'd buy the Trygon to beat up people in combat ... everything else does it for less. You wouldn't buy him over a drop pod fex to beat up vehicles in combat (or even a non drop pod fex), b/c the fex beats up vehicles in combat better. Basically, the Trygon is feggin' bad, but that doesn't mean he won't get good use against opponents who really aren't well built to handle OMG 6w monsters.

Mawloc - Cheap Trygon with weaker rules, and as far as I can tell is killed by DS'ing into impassable. I suppose he'd be cool for popping infantry squads in the open, including marines/termies, who aren't in their vehicles ... but ... I'm trying to make this clear ... you won't have trouble with any of those anyway. Your only "need" will be to dedicate points and slots to opening transports. You don't need units that kill infantry in the open as their paid-for "specials" like the Mawloc's.

Tyrannofex - His points make him bad. He's cool, has lots of wounds, has a 2 shot S10 gun ... but he's BS3. He's also a land raider costed monster that can't transport guys and is pathetic in combat.

Dat's my $.02.


Things that make obvious sense -

Tervigon, which is "meant" to be combined Fex + Trygon, is a great unit that you'll see lots of and in GW's perfect world requires a $100 investment to build. Smart people will use spare gaunt pieces and green stuff, and a Fex.

Hive Guard - New metal model that costs $20 and people will want 9 of them. Really clever people may convert their old Tyrant Guard into them, since Tyrant Guard will be less frequent/good now.

Things that make NO SENSE AT ALL -

Pyrovore - Cool new model, horrifically bad stats. Biovore stats also being bad means most players will go "um, why would I buy that? Monsters are better AND cooler!"

Venomthrope - Cool new model, horrifically bad due to extreme fragility. Again, why the new model GW but crap stats?

Swarmlord - See my above. At least they didn't invest in a SWARMLORD mold.

Harpy - /Facepalm par excellence.

Rippers - Still crap, for all the same reasons.

Biovores - Still crap, for all the same reasons.



There are some others I alluded to above. If not mentioned, the verdict is still out.


Note: Most people will find a "use" they can talk to or theorycraft over for a lot of the units I think are crap. That's fine. You can theorycraft a use out of Sisters Repentia (CREEED!). Doesn't mean they're taken by many or acknowledged by brains as "good."

[Lord Azaghul]

*All notes made while reading the leaked info, and from a guard players perspective

Wow that hive tyrant is terrifying!

It looks like it’ll be tough for most players to pick the right stuff without making him so expensive he actually becomes a draw back.

I did see a few things that reminded me of some VC/DoC magic items/lore (pyker tests mainly) I hope that pykers don’t become what magic has become in fantasy, the HQ’s in this army are really scary. As I read it seems like the whole freaking army is a pyker! From a strickly ‘on paper’ perspective that really looks over the top

Outflank: the options in this army just got a lot scarier – good bye linar 40k! (good ridance too!). It really looks like this army had the potental to shake up the game. (Parasite of Mortrex!!!)

Mawloc: I hope the player can not intentionally place the Deep Strike on top of an enemy unit!

I also see some indirect fire weapons…

The Doom of Malan’tia!!! –aaahhhhh!

Other strange things: I don’t see the need to have all the anti inititive stuff when the overall INI of the army is already very high!

Overall: Dooooooommmm! The army is kind of scary. I do see lots of options, and its hard to tell what builds and prefences will come to the top, a lot of things look really good on paper but don’t always turn out that way! However it well be good to NOT see tyrnid players just line up everything on one side and push toward you, the army is now a lot more dynamic. I’m not sure what the armies weakness' will be but on paper the new army looks like a shooting/pyker/assult monster!

I’m kind of surprised many current ‘nid players aren’t too happy with the book. It looks like an overall upgrade - at least on paper.

[Vepr]

The more I read the more worried I get. It seems like a lot of the nids are way over priced or just plain useless. It sounds like we have a couple of really good units but they are backed up by cannon fodder and either stupid expensive units or completely useless units.

Did a nid eat Cruddace's dog or something?

I can see now why they thought something was wrong at the printers. If it was the same place that did the Ork, IG and SW codex they probably stopped printing and asked "Is this for the same game?"

[MVBrandt]

Nice, Vepr. I think you sum up my feelings pretty well. Some really really good units, some key units, but it looks like an Old Dex. There's already a best build or two, instead of the 50+ great builds that Cruddace's guard dex presented. Not that it's a bad dex, just that I think everyone is rightfully a little disappointed.

[Bigred]

My thoughts exactly MVBrandt.

Not a bad codex at all, and there are good builds, but a throwback to the old days of a codex with a "right" way to play it leading to army monotony. Overall the biggie is an issue of points balancing rather than rules.

I can't help but feel the Tervigon was invented specifically to sell gaunt boxes, and offer a viable horde option, but they went to far and undercosted him, making him the army superstar. I'm also pretty keen on Alpha Warriors. Having scary non-MCs you can stuff into other units is very potent ability for the nid army. One often overlooked by newer players obsessed with the "shiny" new toys (like the SwarmLord)

[MVBrandt]

There will definitely be Alpha Warrior + Gaunt blobs backed up by Tervigons, i.e. 2 Alpha HQ's w/ Bone Sword Lash Whip Sytal (95pts) in 25-30-gaunt squads with a trio of scoring Tervigons. Such gaunt squads run properly will have FNP, be led by a 5 attack on charge re-roll 1's to hit power weapon WS6 S5 dude, and will have ~60 other attacks that re-roll to wound vs. most troop types and wound always on a 4+. Have fun with the math on what that does to ... well, most anything.

Tervies aren't undercosted IMO, they're just ... superlative units in a dex full of OVERCOSTED "blah" units loaded up with useless crap (like the Venomthrope's BS4) that you're paying for.

I'll run a nid army b/c I've run nids for years, and they were my first real 40k army. BUT I'm not happy with the numerous glaring, obvious, vibrant flaws in the new dex. Cost everything properly, give every slot anti-tank and anti-infantry choices, and let the players sort it out. Building a dex that screams TAKE TERVIGONS AND HIVE GUARD OR ELSE YOU SUK is not cool.

[HsojVvad]

[QUOTE=Bigred;44180
I can't help but feel the Tervigon was invented specifically to sell gaunt boxes, and offer a viable horde option, but they went to far and undercosted him, making him the army superstar. [/QUOTE]

Isn't that the truth. I was at GW yesterday and I told him it was a slap in the face to take the Carni out of the battlforce boxset. He said we don't need it, we would need more gaunts. I told him I don't want gaun'ts I wanted my Carni. I said how is an extra 8 gaunts replacing the Carni going to save me money?

I almost walked out on him, but calmed down to hear what else he had to say. Basically it's just GW trying to sell more mini's. But I can't see how they are going to sell more mini's if the rules are just to crappy or to expensive points wise to be playing with.

[MVBrandt]

There's a lot of "bad" in how the codex does not gel well with mini sales this time, however.

First off, everybody has tons of gaunts. In anything other than TOURNAMENT play (which they claim to not want to support anymore rules-wise/etc., and that it's only a tiny % of their population), nobody is going to care anywhere if you chuck some of those old hormagaunts or spinegaunts or whatevergaunts out on the table to represent the Terms that your Tervs spawn. In fact, they'd probably WELCOME it, so that they can tell each new mini brood apart from the other ones.

New Models ...

Pyrovore - Crap, will only be bought for conversions/"it looks cool" reactions

Venomthrope - Crap, see Pyrovore

Trygon/Mawloc - Decent enough will sell well, but see *

*Tervigon/Tyrannofex/Harpy/Etc. - People will just use green stuff and spare bits to do any of these out of a SINGLE Trygon or Fex kit; you're not going to see folks running around buying TWO boxed sets to kitbash when the company hasn't even provided a clear picture of what they look like.

Gaunts - People will actually be encouraged to buy a MINIMUM of new, WYSIWYG Termagants; in fact, most people probably already have them; rationale? See above re: gaunt spam out of tervigons

Hormagaunts - Finally, I can put the 100+ I've accrued over the years to use! Not gonna buy any!

Fexes - Time to break them down for Tervigon conversions, yay!

The list will go on.

All but the Hive Guard are going to lose money, probably. Or they'll at least not match sales expectations.

You're basically seeing a *******ized codex where sales influence has melded with playtesting influence has melded with author's creative license to create a totally out of whack dex where half the things have been overpriced to encourage other sales, half the things have been made utterly stupid but included anyway to try and sell new sculpts that weren't congruous with the rules dev, and the other half (yes, three halves) managed to sneak through shoddy playtesting, rules writing, and the influence of corporate to actually have decent rules ("Gaunt Farm," etc.)


I'll play the Nids b/c I love the nids, and it'll be fun and fine, but I'm not going to invest much money at all b/c they haven't made anything other than the Hive Guard of their new models actually requisite purchases. They fail, miserably.

Caveat again - will be a fun dex in some ways, but it's not a GOOD dex.


I just see 0 strategy or deep thought. Make a model that creates gaunts so we sell lots of them? NO deep thought or analysis applied to how that actually is rational (it's not). Make new models that are gorgeous? NO concept there either that there are other customers besides "OOH SHINY" ones. GIVE THEM GOOD RULES ALSO, R-TARDS. What they hit home runs with when it came to Valks/Vendettas, Demolisher/Executioner new cut, Battlewagons, and 50 other things since the Ork dex took 25 steps backward with this dex.

[Vepr]

I think the first list I am going to try is somewhat of an old school list without many of the new bells and whistles. I am going to run a max squad of gants and a max squad of gaunts with some shooty warriors herding them with an Alpha along. I am going to run a Tyrant with guards probably CC oriented. A drop pod fex probably CC with plasma. Drop pod CC warriors and fill out the rest with infiltrating stealers and maybe a lictor if I have the points left over to see how a more old school list with some drop pod and infiltration diversion fairs. Not exactly a heavy hitting list against armor but I am mainly interested to see how the multiple direction threats survive and or support each other.

I am thinking that sensory overload might be the way to go here meaning give your opponent so many incoming threats to sweat over that they are going to have to pick which poison or two to swallow.

[MVBrandt]

My only remaining curiosity is if the Lictor +1 reserves and the Tyrant +1 reserves stack.

[Vepr]

My only remaining curiosity is if the Lictor +1 reserves and the Tyrant +1 reserves stack.

That would be nice which is what I was kind of hoping for. Which means if they do stack or it leaves it open ended they will probably FAQ it to corn hole us. :p

[Lord Azaghul]

I think the first list I am going to try is somewhat of an old school list without many of the new bells and whistles. .


Oddly enough some of the list I've had the most successful with in my guard book have been build without all the new shiney stuff.
Don't take this the wrong way, (and keep in mind I'm not a bug player so I may have no idea what I'm talking about), but I really think the book is going to be a lot better then you guys are saying it is.
Clearly the focus of the book as changed, but that's not nesscarily bad! The new book looks alot less flat then the old one, far less nidzilla lists, lots of crazy psyker stuff, and a ton of interesting neat little rules (like the drop pod), options for a much more viable horde list then Orks! If may turn out that some of the old models are some of the better ones in the new book...but maybe I'm just being optomistic.

Keep in mind all the doom and gloom that surrounded the guard book (the sky is falling anyone?). All the fears of Stormtroopers being everywhere...to me the inverse in this case is: the new book is being underated, my guess is it'll be fine, and hopefully you'll have more then 1 viable build!

[MVBrandt]

It's actually more Nidzilla. I mean, the first "power" list that's appearing at the 2k level is 3 fexes, 5 tervigons, 9 hive guard ... that's 17 T6 creatures and 8 monstrous creatures, 5 of which have 6 wounds each.

The Guard book WAS and IS sky is falling. It's the best dex out there right now on the competitive and variety front by far.

Maybe you aren't reading the various things being posted, but they are not being put up there in 1337 speak by 12 year olds. There are some glaring flaws in the way this dex was written, in the sense that numerous units are absolutely pointless. Few people have said it's noncompetitive, or crap, just that there's a lot of noncompetitive crap in it :)

Where the recent dexes like Space Wolves, Orks, Marines, Guard have a wide variety of opinion on them re: competitiveness, most of them aren't RIFE with "noncompetitive crap" selections. The Nid dex is the opposite. Most everyone agrees there will be competitiveness to it at some level, but there's a TON of trash in there, and a huge % of the "new models" are not even going to be taken often by higher order lists. This is beyond confusing for a lot of players out there, and I wouldn't blame them for it.

[Vepr]

Oddly enough some of the list I've had the most successful with in my guard book have been build without all the new shiney stuff.
Don't take this the wrong way, (and keep in mind I'm not a bug player so I may have no idea what I'm talking about), but I really think the book is going to be a lot better then you guys are saying it is.
Clearly the focus of the book as changed, but that's not nesscarily bad! The new book looks alot less flat then the old one, far less nidzilla lists, lots of crazy psyker stuff, and a ton of interesting neat little rules (like the drop pod), options for a much more viable horde list then Orks! If may turn out that some of the old models are some of the better ones in the new book...but maybe I'm just being optomistic.

Keep in mind all the doom and gloom that surrounded the guard book (the sky is falling anyone?). All the fears of Stormtroopers being everywhere...to me the inverse in this case is: the new book is being underated, my guess is it'll be fine, and hopefully you'll have more then 1 viable build!

I really am trying to remain positive as I wait to see a dex. :) But like I said before I am getting a little more worried every day as we find out more and more. I think this is the first dex I can remember since the last CSM update that had so many people saying "WTF?" instead of "Cheese!"

I guess what I am most concerned over is the huge cost increase with seeming minimal gains from what we know on top of many new units that do not seem to be good for much of anything other than the rule of cool. Also it does not seem like much was addressed when it came to our issues with mech, the issues with fearless, and survivability of our mid sized creatures like warriors.

I hope there is more to the dex than what has been leaked so that some more of the seemingly odd prices and stats will start to make sense.

[MVBrandt]

I am waiting for all of us to laugh out loud when we note page xyz that says in tiny subprint: All units in the Tyranid Codex have the Eternal Warrior USR. :p

[oldone]

nope it will be some apoc creatue thats 4 trygons and a fexs kit based togther which will give all models in 24 feet and thus making more sales

i not screaming that my dex is going to suck just cos some things are reallly expensive so what a leman russ is as many or more points the most need stuff and i bet i kill more with my fexs the a guard does with his tank.
next why is every one going on about hive guard i mean surely the big brain are good stick in a pod to get close and the let ripe with 3 lances at s10 hows that not anti-mech
so's my list in my head is like this (i don't spam)
HQ
swarm lord ... if i can't take the power whcih allows one troop to out flank i use normal tryant with 2 boneswords and lench life
tryant guard (only if they don't take a HQ slot like commands squads for SM )
warrior prime (like the trygon i think this will get the name prime not alpha/ i equip with bone sword and talons
Elites
3 brains in pod with strangler
1 hive guard or 1 squig faces or lictor
troops
20~30 hormgaunts with toxin sacs and aldernal glands
20~30 termgaunts
10~20 spinegaunts
1 terigon ( these guys sound cool and look fun to use /make but if points cost are to high i like get rid of it)
10 genstallers with brood lord
6~warriors equip with talons and deathstipper and one with ever heavy weapon as i have both panited/ if points allows bone sword will be take
fast attack
3~6 raveners probs with rending claws and adrenal glands
10~30 gargoyles basicly as may as i can have for the ponits will give these guys toxin sacs (where are u wraith lords..)
heavy support
2~3 carfexs baics may be adrenal glands
trygon prime
mawloc
any marks of ~ means if i have that may points to buy them
p.s. sorry if i miss spelled any words i have reason to do it but i do try hard not too

[DarkLink]

I am waiting for all of us to laugh out loud when we note page xyz that says in tiny subprint: All units in the Tyranid Codex have the Eternal Warrior USR. :p

That would be pretty funny.

[HsojVvad]

I am waiting for all of us to laugh out loud when we note page xyz that says in tiny subprint: All units in the Tyranid Codex have the Eternal Warrior USR. :p

Only if the Tyranids don't sell well, it will be in the FAQ wich they will release by March :D

[Madjob]

It seems that the Pyrovore is not QUITE as bad as previously reported. "Flammable", the rule where he explodes like a vehicle, only occurs when it is the victim of Instant Death, and requires a die roll of a 4+ for it to actually occur.

It still doesn't solve the fact that it's a unit Tyranids didn't especially need, has weirdness with its CC stats, and is competing in a very full slot. If only they had the hellhound flamer the Tyrannofex uses, I could see them being a "fun" choice. A group of 3 would be worth 135 points if that were the case, if only for diversity.

[Caldera02]

I like alot of things in what the new dex brings to my table and the cool things I get to finally play with(Gargoyles yay!) Deathleapers rules make me laugh, it's mandatory for me to play with him from now on :P Tyrgon will be fun to play with as will drop pods. Kit bashing will be very fun unless they plan on models for tyranofex and such. I believe your meant to mix and match though if i'm not mistaken. But one thing above all has made me a very sad panda. 60 points to put wings on my flyrant?! to bring him up to about the same level of my current edition flyrant he is about 50+ points more and not as good. The alpha Warrior is almost as good for 120 points?! Sad panda indeed.

[Lyracian]

In any event, having looked at the German translated pdf now, here's my $.02 to help the rumor mill for any that haven't read it ...
Tervigon - New "best" choice in the game.
Hive Guard - Best unit in the Codex.
Lictors - Better, but I think that the prevalence of melta makes them more questionable.
Zoanthrope - Cool, better than they were. At no 2+ save and only 2 wounds each they are bolter baitI was going to write a codex review, however I do not think there is much I can add to yours! So I will just point people at that.

Having a scoring six wound Tervigon who gets a cover save from her Children seems to be the de facto build for Tyranids. Hive Tyrants look possible (so you can have Daddy and Mummy Monster with all their babies) due to new Psi powers and 6" Preferred Enemy however they are going to cost 250+ points so could struggle to be cost effective.

I do disagree slightly with your Elite review as I do not think 3 units of Hive guard is going to be the best choice. Having all our ranged anti-tank in one slot is fine with me as it leaves the other slots open to focus on different aspects of the army. As well as helping reserves (for those outflanking/Spore Pod armies) Lictor's have an Assault 2 Str 6 Rending attack so are capable of taking out Tanks and Transports when they land. While weak to opposing Psykers Zoanthropes still have there AP 3 Blast which helps against other hordes

[nidz]

ok now i got a question is there a difference between the scything talons on a trygon, on a trygon prime, or on a mawloc i know some have different attacks but since all 3 models on hte instruction have different scything talons im wondering if there is any rule difference or is it that they just all need 3 sets of scything talons.

[The.Justinian]

The amount of ranting preceding this codex blows my mind. I've never been attracted to bugs as an army I'd play, and now I can say I'd think about it. In fact, If I had to point the finger at why, socially, the ranting has been made on the part of preexisting bug players (mostly), it's because the players that weren't emotionally attached to the previous bugs can see how the new bugs will be cool.

See MVBrandts' summary for a decent text by someone that thought critically and parsed out what was good, bad, and okay, rather than just automatically concluding that everything that's different without being amazing is automatically trash.

In reality the buttkicking potential of this army had to satisfy several things
1) an amount of newness on par with the other 5th ed codicies.
2) Introducing the dynamism of the reserves/outflank/objective game into an army that lacked many ways to play it.
3) separate the fanboys from the men from the innovators from the storytellers by providing enough choices to let people fall on their faces, think up cool conversion projects, and concept armies that are more deep in concept than 'yep, swarm of bugs.'
4) Fire out a lot of new things that may become useful later for reasons none of us have yet fathomed. In Magic, (which I know WH players hate vehemently) sometimes a card that was passed over as total suck upon initial release will get a new lease on life when an innovator stumbles upon its use, sometimes years later.

I think the venomthrope might be there to preserve the army's ability to fight in combat patrols...which it sucked at before. Looks like it will keep sucking...

And as for the pyrovore...the level of stupidity is so monumental here. Maybe it will have the lone wolf rule? the level of SENSE would escalate. But maybe it really is just total suck.

My suspicion is that at least some of the great stupidities that are evident in the new codex might be the 'typographical errors' for which they were recalled from the printer.

[MVBrandt]

I was going to write a codex review, however I do not think there is much I can add to yours! So I will just point people at that.

Having a scoring six wound Tervigon who gets a cover save from her Children seems to be the de facto build for Tyranids. Hive Tyrants look possible (so you can have Daddy and Mummy Monster with all their babies) due to new Psi powers and 6" Preferred Enemy however they are going to cost 250+ points so could struggle to be cost effective.

I do disagree slightly with your Elite review as I do not think 3 units of Hive guard is going to be the best choice. Having all our ranged anti-tank in one slot is fine with me as it leaves the other slots open to focus on different aspects of the army. As well as helping reserves (for those outflanking/Spore Pod armies) Lictor's have an Assault 2 Str 6 Rending attack so are capable of taking out Tanks and Transports when they land. While weak to opposing Psykers Zoanthropes still have there AP 3 Blast which helps against other hordes

Appreciate the compliment.

Re: Lictors and anti-tank, it's an AP- weapon, so I don't think they can reliably take out transports. Remember, the purpose of a Nid army needs to be able to KILL transports reliably, not shake them. You only need to shake the big gun tanks, b/c killing them in combat w/ monsters late game is fine. You can't "win" when your only way to kill a transport is to charge it. The "transport dance" is what it is b/c you have two mech armies where both realize their transports are going to die, and the main point is to kill from inside, forcing the other guy to do it on foot, and then counter-charging him, etc. Nids start with the default of "we're already out of our transports, you win the mech dance." So, they have to kill the transports at range - at least enough of them to start squaring the odds.

Hive Guard are the best bet for this. There are no transports in the game that are statistically safe from them, other than Land Raiders, and LR cost means as long as you have a well-protected fex or two in your list you can tackle those later on.

Basically, my thought process on lictors vs. hive guard vs. other elites is based around this, and the fact that the Hive Guard perform our most important army JOB better than any other choice can. They stay alive, esp. with Tervigon support, and they kill transports very reliably. Nothing else comes close, so cool choices like lictors and other things will fall by the wayside often to make room for them. Please note - this isn't me saying lictors and such are bad; again see my summary to see the ones that are actually "bad." It's just that Hive Guard are so damned critical to what we do.

[Lyracian]

Unlike some I do not have the leaked codex so have not been able to fully compare units. AP - & Rending seems an odd combination! Occasionally it will cancel out the -1.

I think every army is going to take two units of Hive Guard for Transport popping like you say, I just think there is some mileage in the other units to compete for the third and final slot. Give me a month to get the book and I will come back with my final analysis. :0)

[Duke]

I think Hive guard would be a valuable unit for taking out light transports. The thing is that the obvious anti tank is the Zoanthrope, but with it's short range you have to have something "reach out and touch you," I think the Hive Guard would do that well.

Duke

[S0ULDU5T]

One thing thats really bugging me is that they rleased the battleboxes without even a preview copy so I have two of the things withouth any clue how to assemble them.

Could someone tell me the defualt equipemtn for hormaguants and termaguants, becuase I was thinking about assembline just barebones. You guys think thats a good idea? I could always just add biomorphs later since they seem to attach to the completed model.

As for the warriors, I'm relly confused. could anyone post what their defualt equipent is? But the complicated part was I was thinking of kitting them out to just be melee monsters but I'm not sure what that would do the points.

I'm not sure what the forum rules on poting stuff like this, but i figured asking here on this thread might provide a decent summary of rumors, further the discussion as to builds, and help those like me that bave batleboxes that need some assembling. Thanks everyone.

EDIT: I almost forogt genestealers. I'm not used to the new boxes :P Just defualt equipment, but if anyone has some good ideas as to how best they might be equipped (economicly speaing) I'd love to hear it.

[Lyracian]

One thing thats really bugging me is that they rleased the battleboxes without even a preview copy so I have two of the things withouth any clue how to assemble them.
Termagunts get Fleshborer standard. No not really need anything else
Hormogaunts get Scything Talons Standard. Really want Toxic Sacs as well.
Warriors get Devourer & Scything Talons. Probably worth spending the few points to give them Deathspitters & Talons.
Genestealers start with Rending Claws and do not need anything else.


Warrior Weapon Options:
The whole brood may replace Scything Talons with Rending Claws
The whole brood may replace scything talons with pair of boneswords
The whole brood may replace Scything Talons with Lash Whip and Bone Sword
One warrior may replace Devourer with Barbed Strangler OR with Venom Cannon
The whole brood can replace devourer with Rending Claws
The Whole brood can replace devourer with Spine fists
The whole brood can replace devourer with deathspitters
The whole brood may replace devourer with scything talons (can't be replaced)

[S0ULDU5T]

Ack! Looks like I'm going to have to wait on the warriors just to compare costs, but thanks for the heads up on the other models, I can assemble most of them now at least.

Was it Termaguants or hormaguants that included "Without number" in their base cost? I seem to recall seeing rumors conflicting as to which recevied it. I had hated without number in the last codex becuase you had to come on from your board edge which was only really good if there was an objective back there but if you can come on as if infiltrated or or even from a Trygons hole that it digs then wouldn't it be awesome do dig that hole next to an objective and just keep assialing it with numberless gaunts?

[Crevab]

Gaunts were build-a-creature units that could get WoN. Hormagaunt were a seperate entry.

The standard fleshborer Termagant was 9pts with WoN. 6 pts. without it

[DarkLink]

I don't think there's WoN at all anymore, though I haven't actually seen the codex.

[Crevab]

Closest thing to Without Number is the Tervigon and its babies.

[Madjob]

A thought: If taking a Mawloc, it's to your benefit to start it on the table if you get first turn (or, depending on how confident you are in it surviving a round of enemy shooting, even if you go second). Re-burrowing it immediately means it is guaranteed to come onto the field on second turn. If it starts in reserves, you're at the mercy of the reserves roll.

It's possible that you aren't allowed to deploy a Trygon/Mawloc normally, but I haven't seen anything of the sort in the translated codex.

I playtested a list of genestealers/trygons/alpha warriors. The genestealers still perform admirably, and while I miss power weapons on the Broodlord, he's still pretty useful. I didn't have opportunity to get good use out of Hypnotic Stare, I used it once but it wasn't on a dangerous model. Similarly, the Alpha Warriors hardly got to see any action either, because either I failed to get them into base contact on the charge (due to crowding from other units fighting the same target) or because the genestealers simply killed everything before they got a chance to attack.

The Trygons earned their points, one serving as a giant fire magnet for guns that normally would have been shooting the genestealers but still managing to massacre some swiftclaws and 5 terminators, another sending a grey hunter squad packing before cracking open a LRR, and a third took care of a dreadnought as well as finishing off the terminators and their Wolf Lord. More games will give me a better impression of these guys, especially as his list lacked the appropriate firepower to deal with them, but I'm pretty happy with what I saw. They're fast, deadly, and very intimidating.

[Vepr]

A thought: If taking a Mawloc, it's to your benefit to start it on the table if you get first turn (or, depending on how confident you are in it surviving a round of enemy shooting, even if you go second). Re-burrowing it immediately means it is guaranteed to come onto the field on second turn. If it starts in reserves, you're at the mercy of the reserves roll.

It's possible that you aren't allowed to deploy a Trygon/Mawloc normally, but I haven't seen anything of the sort in the translated codex.

I playtested a list of genestealers/trygons/alpha warriors. The genestealers still perform admirably, and while I miss power weapons on the Broodlord, he's still pretty useful. I didn't have opportunity to get good use out of Hypnotic Stare, I used it once but it wasn't on a dangerous model. Similarly, the Alpha Warriors hardly got to see any action either, because either I failed to get them into base contact on the charge (due to crowding from other units fighting the same target) or because the genestealers simply killed everything before they got a chance to attack.

The Trygons earned their points, one serving as a giant fire magnet for guns that normally would have been shooting the genestealers but still managing to massacre some swiftclaws and 5 terminators, another sending a grey hunter squad packing before cracking open a LRR, and a third took care of a dreadnought as well as finishing off the terminators and their Wolf Lord. More games will give me a better impression of these guys, especially as his list lacked the appropriate firepower to deal with them, but I'm pretty happy with what I saw. They're fast, deadly, and very intimidating.

I very much suspect that even though very few people would have taken the new fex due to the cost the final nail in the coffin for the fex is the Trygon. There is really no valid reason to take a fex now other than liking the model.

[MVBrandt]

Fexes are better vehicle crackers than Trygons ... esp. vs av14

[Vepr]

A German player posted the following disturbing thing on Warseer.


The point is, quite and simple, that the old sentence allowing nids to combine different special close combat weapons is not written in the new codex any longer!

If this was an oversight or if it was intended, who knows?

But RAW it´s only one special close combat weapon each turn.


Regards
General Grundmann

Meaning you would have to choose between using a bonesword of the scything talons for example. :eek:

[Vepr]

Fexes are better vehicle crackers than Trygons ... esp. vs av14

If you are seeing Monolith and LR spam then maybe but with the 2d6 from being a monstrous creature and the better WS and extra attacks the Tyrgon is no slouch at taking out even AV 14 especially if they are able to reroll ones against vehicles and not just creatures.

[S0ULDU5T]

A German player posted the following disturbing thing on Warseer.



Meaning you would have to choose between using a bonesword of the scything talons for example. :eek:


It is in another language, and some things in Europe are more RAI friendly then other here. I wouldn't panic just yet.

[Plucky]

It is in another language, and some things in Europe are more RAI friendly then other here. I wouldn't panic just yet.

Ive read the dex and for the Hive Tyrant it starts with a Bonesword & Talons & Lash Whips

Malanthorpe aint worth it either

[Cyberscape7]

I really want to get the new Hive Guard. No line of sight needed. That will be the best.

[Lyracian]

Fexes are better vehicle crackers than Trygons ... esp. vs av14Just for fun I ran some numbers

Carnifex vs Trygon – Vehicle Penetration on the charge
Unit Hits on 4+ AV10 AV11 AV12 AV13 AV14
Fex 3.75 3.75 3.65 3.44 3.13 2.63
Trygon 5.25 4.38 3.79 3.06 2.19 1.46

Unit Hits on 6+ AV10 AV11 AV12 AV13 AV14
Fex 1.53 1.53 1.49 1.4 1.27 1.07
Trygon 2.14 1.78 1.54 1.25 0.89 0.59

[MVBrandt]

Your #'s are not correct ...

The Trygon is still better against the lower AV but the curve is not so aggressive; i.e. you seem to have him automatically penetrating AV10 (he achieves 5.25 hits on the 4+ chart). He should only score 4.375 penetrating results vs. AV10 with 4+ to hit (30/36 of the 5.25 hits will pen), 4.8 if you count glances.

Not the thread for that kind of nitty gritty though. Hive Guard are built to survive and kill transports (AV10-12). Fexes are there to crack open things that tervigons, termagants and hive guard can't. I see them as more reliable than Zoanthropes at killing high AV during the game due to durability and psychic defense. I suppose if you think you'll go up against a lot of russ executioners, but the Demolishers and such won't really make a big impact on a well designed nid list.

[nidz]

ok what is the difference between the trygon, mawloc and trygon alpha the reason i am wondering this is there is any difference between the scything talosn since they all 3 have scything talosn is there any real difference between those 6 differecent scythign talosn u get in the box for the rules or anything.

[Madjob]

ok what is the difference between the trygon, mawloc and trygon alpha the reason i am wondering this is there is any difference between the scything talosn since they all 3 have scything talosn is there any real difference between those 6 differecent scythign talosn u get in the box for the rules or anything.

Trygon and Trygon Prime use the larger sets of talons, presumably because they have more attacks than the Mawloc (6 compared to 3) and because they actually count as having 2 pairs of Scything Talons, whereas the Mawloc does not have ANY Scything Talons in its profile. So you use the smaller sets for him.

[nidz]

ok that is a good point, the reason i ask this is cause ive magnetized my trygons head to be able to do all 3 different varients but the scything talons are becoming the hard part was wondering really if htere was any difference cuase i was just gonna glue the talons on since tehy are all talons from what i can see from my sprue.

[mstingray]

just quickly, does anyone know if the hive guards attack ignores cover saves, or does the unit get a 4+ cover save or what.

[Plucky]

just quickly, does anyone know if the hive guards attack ignores cover saves, or does the unit get a 4+ cover save or what.

Hive Guard attacks do not ignore cover saves. If your model is in cover, or there is a peice of cover between you and the gaurd, you get a save.

[Vepr]

Is there any official word on whether scything talons rerolls worked vs vehicles also? I am still trying desperately to come up for a use for my 3 fexs outside of AV14.

I am still thinking since they seem to be the only ones with frag grenades they could be used to root out tough units in cover especially with acid blood. Kind of an expensive specialist but at least a valid use.

[Duke]

Hive Guard attacks do not ignore cover saves. If your model is in cover, or there is a peice of cover between you and the gaurd, you get a save.

Where are you finding that you recieve a cover save for terrain in between? I was just going over that with a friend and the conclusion was
1. if in cover you get a save.
2. If out of cover you don't, even though terrain may be inbetween you.

We assumed it was because the shot goes up into the air and comes down on the heads of the enemy... As such interviening terrain won't affect anything.

I only ask cause I would like a more solid answer than the one we came up with. (even though I feel it is a great RAI comprimise)

Duke

[Lyracian]

Your #'s are not correct ...

The Trygon is still better against the lower AV but the curve is not so aggressive; i.e. you seem to have him automatically penetrating AV10 (he achieves 5.25 hits on the 4+ chart). He should only score 4.375 penetrating results vs. AV10 with 4+ to hit (30/36 of the 5.25 hits will pen), 4.8 if you count glances.It is the poor formatting that makes hard to read as that is what I posted, first number is #hits. 5.25 Hits then 4.38 Pen vs AV 10 etc. I am just not convinced the Fex is that much better against Land Raiders to make it a better choice than the Trygon. Maybe with its Plasma attack...

Carnifex vs Trygon – Vehicle Penetration on the charge
Unit Hits on 4+ . AV10 . AV11 . AV12 . AV13 . AV14
Fex . . . 3.75 . . . 3.75 . 3.65 . . 3.44 . . 3.13 . . 2.63
Trygon . 5.25 . . . 4.38 .. 3.79 . . 3.06 . . 2.19 . . 1.46

Unit Hits on 6+ . AV10 . AV11 . AV12 . AV13 . AV14
Fex . . . 1.53 . . 1.53 . . 1.49 . . 1.4 . . 1.27 . . 1.07
Trygon . 2.14 . . 1.78 . . 1.54 . . 1.25 .. 0.89 . . 0.59

[Vepr]

They Trygon still looks better for an all comers list although one fex might not be bad to take as insurance if you equip them with the frag equivalent for rooting out nasty units in cover or for going after AV14. Still not sure how effective they will be against AV14 because players are just going to drive away from them like before. If I am not mistaken the Trygon has fleet plus the other utilities it brings. Just a better over all choice.

[DarkLink]

Where are you finding that you recieve a cover save for terrain in between? I was just going over that with a friend and the conclusion was
1. if in cover you get a save.
2. If out of cover you don't, even though terrain may be inbetween you.

We assumed it was because the shot goes up into the air and comes down on the heads of the enemy... As such interviening terrain won't affect anything.

I only ask cause I would like a more solid answer than the one we came up with. (even though I feel it is a great RAI comprimise)

Duke

If the rule simply says "does not need LOS", then it probably works like this: you can shoot the unit, even if you can't see it, however because the target is obscured via LOS, it gets a cover save.

It's kinda a funny situation where you don't need LOS to shoot, but you still use LOS to determine whether you get a cover save or not, as normal.

[Sam]

Ive read the dex and for the Hive Tyrant it starts with a Bonesword & Talons & Lash Whips

Malanthorpe aint worth it either

That's interesting, seeing as how the Malanthrope isn't even in the codex.

[MVBrandt]

The catch that I am attempting to get at re: fex vs. trygon is that while I think the Fex's points cost is atrocious, the Nids with Hive Guard will have extremely reliable, very durable AV10-13 poppers. The Trygon then becomes a questionable investment at 200 points for that purpose, and more difficult to provide cover to utilizing intervening troops than the Fexes.

That said, Trygons are still pretty solid, so I'm not advocating their dismissal at all, and if you're toting Zoanthropes instead of Hive Guard, while I may think that's unwise for other reasons, the Trygons actually become a better choice.

[BS FADE]

If the rule simply says "does not need LOS", then it probably works like this: you can shoot the unit, even if you can't see it, however because the target is obscured via LOS, it gets a cover save.

It's kinda a funny situation where you don't need LOS to shoot, but you still use LOS to determine whether you get a cover save or not, as normal.


I was under the impression is worked like Smart missiles where you have to be in cover to get a cover save. Because Smart missile don't use LOS in targeting, only distance. Which means you don't get a cover save even if you cant see the model.

Now if its worded differently then Smart missiles then i guess you can claim a cover save because you cant see it, but like a lot of people i haven't seen it yet.

[MVBrandt]

Need to wait for the actual dex to see the very specific wording. Would be unsurprising if you didn't get cover, but the official wording hasn't really been seen yet except by German speakers, and the translation is just that ... a simple "summation" of the rule instead of an actual translation verbatim.

[Caldera02]

So I played a test game with the translated dex last night. A couple of growing pains I noticed I will have to learn to deal with are no frag grenades on hormies or anyone for that matter save the fex and the instant death to multi wound models. Zoans might as well only be 1 wound! haha I played a big game with some friends, a 2v2 so not exactly the best first try with it I admit but overall I was happy with the changes albiet a little sad about some things. I.E. I miss my flyrant alot.

Deathleaper was awesome. One of my opponents was a space puppies player and I brought his LD on his psyker down by 3 for whole game so that he only got off one pyshic power. It was very effective. I played with 2 trygons, I deep struck with both and it puzzled me if I would have been better off starting on the board or at least one of em(target priority kind of thing) During the game I had a +2 reserves going on from Swarmlord and deathleaper but there was discussion as to weather the deathleapers +1 was available while he was not on the table. I believe it does because current edition pheremone trail allows it and if it's not available till turn 3 whats the point right? Also while on the note of "what's the point?", why give hormies base I of 5 if no frag grenades? Hopefully the real codex actually says they have em or something because otherwise it doesnt make sense to have that high of init and not be able to use it.

Swarmlord was great. He walked up to Ragnar and said..."How ya doing? Squish!" Also a huge firemagnet. gargoyles were really fun, I will def be picking up a box. Hive guard I wasn't too impressed with. I got into range turn 2 and stunned a rhino then they got assaulted so not sure how effective they are yet, will keep testing them. Tervigon was amazing, rolled doubles first turn haha but hey 10 free gaunts! and my opponents reaction was effing hilarious! "He does what!? Oh he has to die!" Catalyst is really mandatory from this unit as well, very nice change.(Trygons get saves from missles this way) My fex died before I got to move it so not sure how good he can be yet, debating using a landing spore for him. A fellow longtime nid player used two pods last night and was very pleased with the results.

So I had alot of fun, looking forward to the new dex and alot of clarification that will come with it.

[Nicho]

Any chance you can pm me a link to the translated dex? :)

[BS FADE]

Any chance you can pm me a link to the translated dex? :)

ditto

[HsojVvad]

There is a translated 'dex? I only herd of the German one.

[Vepr]

You should be able to dig it up in torrents. Although you might end up with the straight German version. ;)

[nidz]

yea well i have yet to find hte translation if u oculd send it to me maybe or post where u got it on ehre id appreciate it.

[xanthaous]

Does anyone know if Tyrant Guard have to be with the Hive Tyrant, or can they operate separately (seeing that seems to be the new trend with units that are traditionaly retinues)? If they can operate separatly, can they join up with a Carnifex (solo presumably) or a Tervigon?

[Madjob]

Does anyone know if Tyrant Guard have to be with the Hive Tyrant, or can they operate separately (seeing that seems to be the new trend with units that are traditionaly retinues)? If they can operate separatly, can they join up with a Carnifex (solo presumably) or a Tervigon?

They can operate separately as a unit of 1-3 and you can buy one unit for every Hive Tyrant you take (they do not take up FOC slots of course). However, the joining is done by the Hive Tyrant as though it were an Independent Character, not the other way around. Which, now that I think about it, is yet another nerf to the Tyrant Guard, as now they can't even protect the Hive Tyrant in close combat - if he counts as an IC that's joined the unit, he can be picked out by models in close combat.

[Caldera02]

I think you might be missing the point of the tyrant guard. I view them as purely there to take missles to the face for the HT and nothing more. I have played 4 games with the new dex so far and I give my swarmlord 1 guard and it works wonders. That unit almost always has a 4+ cover save and 2 spare T6 wounds. It's still a steal at 60 points. 2 might be pushing it though. Sure if your opponent fires his whole army at you might kill that unit, but thats a HUGE firemagent.

Here's the links that I got for the new dex. One caveat is that there are quite a few things that are not in the translation that I think just didn't get put in the download but for the most part it feels like most of it is there.

http://www.mediafire.com/?zzwhmgrtkjm

http://rapidshare.com/files/326829474/_Codex__Tyraniden.pdf.html

Scan them with virus scan just to be sure, I did when I downloaded them and didn't find anything. The person who gave em to me said they were from 4chan so just saying up front thats where I got em.

Also a sidenote...for 90 points base and 40 more for a landing spore...the Doom of Malantai is so AWESOME! He accounts for roughly 30 marines and Kharn in 2 games. Totally worth it.

[Anarchyman99]

You know, with everyone on the blogs screaming about how they're gonna have to change up their lists and adjusts this on their strategy or change that in their tactics... I just... don't change anything. And just play a bit better. I suppose it's a mixed blessing, having a codex where I'm already stocked up on eveything that's useful anyway. Exorcists and meltaguns for the big guys, flamers and bolters for the little ones...

Ah, a pity I didn't have their problems. I want more choice in my army -.-

My best friend plays Sister and the army does need more options, but with the damn faith points he pulls off the last turn win more than I'd like..lol. In your mind you can think turns a head, what will win what combat or whatever.....but the faith points.....kills all of that. But the list needs some real long range Anti-armor. The exorcist should fire something like 2+ D3 Frag, or Krak Missiles at 48" Direct and 72" Indirect, at BS4 F13 S12 R10 something like 175 points. Just a thought....but I know what your saying people *****ing about too many options.

[Madjob]

I think you might be missing the point of the tyrant guard. I view them as purely there to take missles to the face for the HT and nothing more. I have played 4 games with the new dex so far and I give my swarmlord 1 guard and it works wonders. That unit almost always has a 4+ cover save and 2 spare T6 wounds. It's still a steal at 60 points. 2 might be pushing it though. Sure if your opponent fires his whole army at you might kill that unit, but thats a HUGE firemagent.

I didn't miss the point of anything, I was just comparing them to their previous incarnation, which had a better statline, did a better job of protecting the Hive Tyrant in ALL situations, and were significantly cheaper. They pretty clearly got a nerf, which certainly doesn't go well with the Tyrant's nerfs as well.

[MVBrandt]

There are a lot of people from **** to BOLS that are way off in their analysis, and most of it is relevant to cost vs. benefit. Most of the units in the codex are good and useful, but a lot of Tyranid players are rightfully "irritated" that most of their units got more expensive and/or worse for their points, and the new units don't hold up well in a cost-points analysis compared to ... say ... guard.

LOTS of stupid people are misreading this as rampant "wrong" complaining. Well, can't correct stupidity.

[S0ULDU5T]

Hey, does Regeneration happen at the beginning of EVERy turn of just your turn? Tyranids have some of the only models in 40k that cana ctually get wounds back right? that's defiantly a plus right?

So how are you guys going to craft a Tervigon? They're going to be popular and unless we get them in a second wave we don't have a model, so what are some of your ideas for creating the model? Lets just say it has to be legal in 'ard boyz or the tourney scene just to make it legit.

Also, as an off topic question, do people at your LGS play more 1500 point games or 2k?

[HsojVvad]

I am think Regeneration is the begining of the Tyranid owning players turn. (just in case it's Nid vs Nid :D)

But knowing GW they can screw it up and it could inply both turns, but then again, Cruddence nerfed Tyranids alot, so I don't see this happening.

[Caldera02]

..." Cruddence nerfed Tyranids alot, so I don't see this happening."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no......just....no

[Vepr]

Cruddace just completely changed nids. It is pretty much a different army now so a lot of us are suffering a little bit of system shock at unit prices etc. I am not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing right now but I would not say he nerfed them just completely changed them.

[K4neX]

Hi all, new to this forum and have been a nids player for the while.

Just read the battle report in WD, got to lol since I think GW got lost of how many termies were lost during the game.

Lost 1 in close combat then 2 from Mawloc arriving, yet there were still 3 on the battlefield.

[Eupackardia]

Hello, I'm new here.

Thks btw the one who posted the links for the dex summaries.

I'd just have a few questions, after reading the lot.

The Biomorph Toxin sacs states that its poison 4+ Is it an extra attack which wounds on 4+ (working like the actual bioplasma), or is it (probably not) making all attacks poisonous which wounds on a 4+? (i mean not too useful for warriors fighting eldars in that case.. no?)

Second question for those who might have more insights: The auto wound thing on the gargoyle. 6+ to wound is w/o saves or is it just a tuned down version of Rending which in this case allows an armor save?

Regeneration: Is it roll a dice for each wounds lost since the beginning of the game or all wounds lost since last round, or all wounds lost from the default which is 4? (cuz the life drain thing kinda screws up no?) I mean, if my tyrant was brought to say 6 w, and then totally lost 4 and now he has 2 wounds left... do i roll 4 dies this turn?

Tervigon issue: Each brood that the tervigons spawn counts in KP? Cuz small broods spawned would be unhelpful... no?

.. Now i've seen people unhappy with the fact that tyranids don't have frag grenades anymore..
I think its not that destructive...
Here's my 0,02$..

When charging into terrain, instead of having frags, we get (in most cases) lash whips. Therefore, ok, enemies attack at same initiative as us then no? so we still get our attacks, and they get a chance to do something cuz clearly in most cases we pwn other races in CC (in general). On top of that, now instead of having rending weapons.. we get power weapons. So isn't that a buff? i mean warriors with PW. omg awesome!

Tyranids sound more buggy, lots of stings which can really hurt, but easily destructible. isn'T that's how it was supposed to be?

[HsojVvad]

Cruddace just completely changed nids. It is pretty much a different army now so a lot of us are suffering a little bit of system shock at unit prices etc. I am not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing right now but I would not say he nerfed them just completely changed them.

Can you imagaine if Cruddance did this to the SM codex? There would be such an out cry that GW hasn't seen before. Oh wait they have, that would be the DA codex, Eldar and finally Chaos Codex, and GW did an 180.

But imagine if the SM were changed just like how the Tyranids will be. This I would love to see. This looks like DA all over again.

[Vepr]

Hello, I'm new here.

Thks btw the one who posted the links for the dex summaries.

I'd just have a few questions, after reading the lot.

The Biomorph Toxin sacs states that its poison 4+ Is it an extra attack which wounds on 4+ (working like the actual bioplasma), or is it (probably not) making all attacks poisonous which wounds on a 4+? (i mean not too useful for warriors fighting eldars in that case.. no?)

Second question for those who might have more insights: The auto wound thing on the gargoyle. 6+ to wound is w/o saves or is it just a tuned down version of Rending which in this case allows an armor save?

Regeneration: Is it roll a dice for each wounds lost since the beginning of the game or all wounds lost since last round, or all wounds lost from the default which is 4? (cuz the life drain thing kinda screws up no?) I mean, if my tyrant was brought to say 6 w, and then totally lost 4 and now he has 2 wounds left... do i roll 4 dies this turn?

Tervigon issue: Each brood that the tervigons spawn counts in KP? Cuz small broods spawned would be unhelpful... no?

.. Now i've seen people unhappy with the fact that tyranids don't have frag grenades anymore..
I think its not that destructive...
Here's my 0,02$..

When charging into terrain, instead of having frags, we get (in most cases) lash whips. Therefore, ok, enemies attack at same initiative as us then no? so we still get our attacks, and they get a chance to do something cuz clearly in most cases we pwn other races in CC (in general). On top of that, now instead of having rending weapons.. we get power weapons. So isn't that a buff? i mean warriors with PW. omg awesome!

Tyranids sound more buggy, lots of stings which can really hurt, but easily destructible. isn'T that's how it was supposed to be?

I think the problem here is that most of our guys that will be charging into cover like Hormagaunts and Stealers do not have lash whips. I think it is only warriors, tyrants, and tyrant guard that get lash whips, maybe a few other things.

[Nicho]

unless we put a warrior alpha with a lash whip in the gaunt squads, that would work wouldn't it? :)

I'm going to try a unit of warriors with lash whips and bone swords with an alpha with 2 boneswords and see how hey fare tomorrow

[Vepr]

unless we put a warrior alpha with a lash whip in the gaunt squads, that would work wouldn't it? :)

I'm going to try a unit of warriors with lash whips and bone swords with an alpha with 2 boneswords and see how hey fare tomorrow

That would be pretty cool also. Especially if you could attach him and pod them all in... :)

[Nicho]

That would be pretty cool also. Especially if you could attach him and pod them all in... :)

Heh yep, i'm also going to try a lictor, doom of malantai combo where i make a lictor pop out beside a unit or two then deepstrike the doom o malantai in in a pod right beside him using pheromone trail and do that Life drain thing on the units :)

[Caldera02]

Heh yep, i'm also going to try a lictor, doom of malantai combo where i make a lictor pop out beside a unit or two then deepstrike the doom o malantai in in a pod right beside him using pheromone trail and do that Life drain thing on the units :)

Unfortunately the pheremone trail is probably going to work like a locater beacon where it has to be on the table for a turn before being used. At least that's the discussion going around our store here in Austin.

@ Vepr Yes I can agree to that. They do play differently now but not so much they you can't embrace the new power available at our fingertips! I have play 4 games with them now and I am starting to enjoy them ALOT. Just have to bite the bullet and accept what has been changed and roll with it.

@Eupack
The posioned attack works pretty good on middle and lower tier tyranids. The way it works is say on warriors, sure you don't wound on 3+ against toughness 3 but you get to re-roll 4+ to wound.

Gargoyles just auto wound with a save allowed.

For one thing the life drain for hive tyrant cannot bring him above his starting wounds. it's worded to say, wounds lost not gain wounds like the Doom of malantai. But yes it is every start of your turn for every wound. So if he has 1 wound left you get to roll 3 dice and any 6's regains a wound. That's generally why it's not worth it because it's expensive to do that.

For the tervicgon Kp issue. I imagine that yes they are worth KP's for each brood. Reasoning behind that being that the tervigons are basically what without number used to be. Seiing as how without number was that way I don't see how the squads from tervigon would not be the same.

And Vepr is right about the lash whips. Yea it's awesome for assaulting into cover but stealers and gaunts don't have access to those. But they are cheap now so kinda a trade off.

[Cthulhu]

Nids suffer from a lack off assault grenades, other than that, I'm relatively optimistic about the codex.

[Evil-Termite]

Nids suffer from a lack off assault grenades, other than that, I'm relatively optimistic about the codex.It is kind of a bummer that such an assault oriented race wouldn't all be getting frag grenades for free. However, Those of us who play other races find it nice as we will actually get a bonus for being in cover when assaulted. When I start playing tyranids though, I'm sure I'll wish they had those grenades.

[K4neX]

Just wondering if anyone has an idea of what would happen if the Large Blast from Mawloc ends up, say, on a Rhino (center of the blast template).

1. Does the Rhino suffer a hit?

2. Where is it hit? Consider that it is not like resolving a normal blast weapon, as you cant determine facing from the firing model to the vehicle to determine where the vehicle is hit.

May be I missed something in the rule book (the main rule book, not the dex), or GW hasn't considered that may happen :P

[HsojVvad]

Just wondering if anyone has an idea of what would happen if the Large Blast from Mawloc ends up, say, on a Rhino (center of the blast template).

1. Does the Rhino suffer a hit?

2. Where is it hit? Consider that it is not like resolving a normal blast weapon, as you cant determine facing from the firing model to the vehicle to determine where the vehicle is hit.

May be I missed something in the rule book (the main rule book, not the dex), or GW hasn't considered that may happen :P

Do you mean when the Mawloc DS from underneath the ground? If I am reading the rules correctly, you place the large blast template, and anything caught in it takes a S6 AP2 hit. If it's a vechicle it is taken on the back. If anything survives, then place the units to the end of the template. If they can't be moved at the end, I think they are destroyed.

So said Rhino will take a S6 AP2 hit to the rear then moved to the end of the template. Since you are asking if it's in the middle I guess you would have to use the scatter dice to see what direction it would move to. If it wasn't in the dead center, it will move to the closest shortest distance to the end.

[Zeneth]

I was just thinking in regard to Tyrants and fexes with 5th ed.......3 fexes in a single unit with a fnp from a tervigon would be incredibly difficult to take down. Also, I haven't heard of any restrictions on 2 flyrants anymore, and while they may be a large point sink, I think my current flyrant would really enjoy a fellow battle brother.

[Caldera02]

I was just thinking in regard to Tyrants and fexes with 5th ed.......3 fexes in a single unit with a fnp from a tervigon would be incredibly difficult to take down. Also, I haven't heard of any restrictions on 2 flyrants anymore, and while they may be a large point sink, I think my current flyrant would really enjoy a fellow battle brother.

Yea feel no pain is nice but really it only helps against small arms fire and missles. Does nothing for you against ap 1 and 2 sadly. what FNP is really good against is flamers on gaunts!!

Thats a TON of points for two flyrants but yea looks to be doable.

The mawloc hit is resolved on the rear armor.

[Zeneth]

While guards do look overpriced now, I've also thought about putting a flyrant with a guard or 2 the first few turns before leaping into combat.
Hehe, just trying to come up with some good uses for the models most of us already have, lol.
This certainly does not take away the monstrous point tag that remains on the wings though :(

[Caldera02]

While guards do look overpriced now, I've also thought about putting a flyrant with a guard or 2 the first few turns before leaping into combat.
Hehe, just trying to come up with some good uses for the models most of us already have, lol.
This certainly does not take away the monstrous point tag that remains on the wings though :(

Oh hey, I hadn't thought of that. The wording now definitely permits that looks like. But yea the price tag on that is retardedly high for not much gain. I don't think the flyrant is as killy as it used to be. Not for the points anyways.

[Doomgrin]

I was just thinking in regard to Tyrants and fexes with 5th ed.......3 fexes in a single unit with a fnp from a tervigon would be incredibly difficult to take down. Also, I haven't heard of any restrictions on 2 flyrants anymore, and while they may be a large point sink, I think my current flyrant would really enjoy a fellow battle brother.

FNP will work well against missile fire, but most likely you will be getting hit by Laz, metla or plas which is AP 1 or 2 and FNP will not function.

[gcsmith]

umm it only doesnt work against double toughness

[MVBrandt]

And AP1 and AP2.
And rending.
And power weapons of all kinds.

[DarkLink]

And AP1 and AP2.
And rending.
And power weapons of all kinds.

And anything else that would ignore a 2+ armor save.

[gcsmith]

ooh didnt see ap 1 and ap2 rule b4

[The.Justinian]

HQ:
Tyrant: Dropped in an apoc game, shot to pieces by bikes. No real data on his effectiveness. Other tyrant was swept up by green tide...Also unknown in effectiveness.

Alpha: Impressive durability added to warrior squads through his presence. Game didn't hinge on his actions, so I can't rate his level of awesome. Warrior squads (even with him) still troubled by transports if caught unsupported. Performance with gaunts unknown.

Terv: A pair pooped an insane amount of gaunts in a 2k C&C game, essentially locking out enemy foot from our objective. We were then able to neutralize the only threat, the enemy falcons, and sit on a tie/win. Paratroopers failed to contest, ended in tie. Tervs experimented with giving each other FNP, but no small arms fire was then used on them. It could be said that guardian JBs stayed away for this reason. Overall, very good defensively, the six wounds made it able to suck up tank fire that might have done more good elsewhere. Offensive capability untested.

Elites:
Zoanthrope: Loss of Loner meant that their whole podding unit was swept up into assault. However, Librarian's attempts to null zone were foiled by Shadow in the Warp. Immobilized one LRC, otherwise ineffective. Crowding in the elite FOC means their shooting is less amazing than most people are presently reckoning--unless you sacrifice lictors, HG, or doom, you'll only destroy one vehicle a turn--yes, you will do so with ease and it shall be epic, but that's...all.
Doom: Much was made of his points value (low), but even after podding in he only managed to hurt a few bikers. I think his balance is right, very good like the Lash but not amazing as all that's required is being in a transport, or any respectable amount of S8 fire. He's a good fire sink, more than one unlucky player will have their whole army eaten by him, but for the most part, he'll be a fire sink. Five stars, but not broken.
Lictors: with three wounds they were much tougher, and contested a woods objective in enemy territory the whole game. Loss of loner meant they only did that in one place, however.

Troops:
Hormagaunts lost their reach, but seemed points-efficient. Weak vs. SM, but they always were. Untested vs. other foes.
Termagants: Devgaunts were hellaciously effective all weekend. Even at the price of a Fire Warrior their arrival on flanks or from pods was feared. I saw this model as the nid's first assault-bait: a unit that the enemy will strive to lock in CC because its shooting is so feared. The forced morale check provided real ability to 'get the job done' at the schwerpunkt.
Warriors: What can I say? In pods, they're very good at tying up enemy attention. the pod also allows small squads to hide/bottleneck the enemy they don't want to fight in the meantime. Their shooting is solid and versatile, but dakka is inadequate to actually wipe enemy. In assault they aquitted themselves well, except where SW powerweapons were in abundance.

The Pod: Special attention should be placed on these. They're cheap enough to be beneath notice, and even though easily killed, on many occasions they were ignored because any unit's shooting would be overkill, and those same potential shooters wanted to assault something else. A build with barbed stranglers was tested, seemed worthwhile in apoc. Their shooting is a good supplement to the men they carry, and the area denial means you can selectively disembark to good effect, denying some enemy the ability to reaction-charge. I anticipate that they will be consistenly modeled on 100mm bases, at least as high as the men they carry. If anything was a great buy in the new codex, it was, ironically, these. Even considering KP, their ability to lay beneath notice meant that that liability was less than anticipated.

Fast:
Wasn't there for any games where fast choices were used.

Heavy:
Our puzzlement is as great as yours over whether the Carni remains a viable option. Podded in, he causes panic in the enemy line, which might give you the opening to do something good from the opening. Assault terminators and librarians slew them handily, and we didn't see anything great out of them as shock troops, but they weren't tried in a non-apoc environment. Theories that rumor control might have leaked them 20pts higher than their real cost were given some credence, however the ability to brood and buff all three was only discovered during clean-up, and remains untested.

Biovores: Remarkably good anti-infantry coverage. In games less than 1500 I think they may show up, as the FOC isn't so crowded. Because the barrage templates are placed adjacent, you can readily hit the whole of a footslogger line. If you play with a decent amount of LoS obstructing terrain in your play group, you will inevitably see these on the field--They're a good deal easier to hide than three griffons.

----
That's all we played with. Globally, my thoughts are with many others that the army has become more dependent on synergies and good planning, but that was obvious to anyone that saw that advent of so many options to deep strike and reserve. For me, a theoryhammer/clauschewitzhammer/Rommelhammer guy, Nids finally became intriguing, after having been overly linear and boring.

[HsojVvad]

Thanks Justinian, not a bad review so far on how the units fare. But you forgot one thing to mention.

Were they fun to use? Even though some units seemed to die too fast, was using the overall army fun?

[The.Justinian]

Thanks Justinian, not a bad review so far on how the units fare. But you forgot one thing to mention.

Were they fun to use? Even though some units seemed to die too fast, was using the overall army fun?

RE: Fun:
The advent of so much choice in the army made it fun at all turns.
1) During army building, each and every FOC slot is packed with options, making you feel that you're turning a real corner strategically as you select how you plan to win. In many 4th ed codicies where there aren't so many choices, Even at different points values you still ended up with obligatory units. The feeling that there are many paths to victory (or lulz, if one was to try a pyrovore-heavy list) fills you with anticipation.

2) Playing against the army (we all did at one time or another), the Nids were a much more fun adversary. Real choices had to be made about where to lay down the heavy fire; sometimes assaulting INTO the swarm made sense, etc. Because the game wasn't simply (I play guard usually) an adventure of 'shoot the big bugs till they all die,' there was a greater feeling of strategic and tactical choice. More than once, as they deep struck alll around, I did say "Game over, man!" In the voice we all know too well. The nids feel less like a force of nature and more like a cunning wolfpack...even without synapse every unit can be dangerous.

3) The variety of Scoring units meant that getting an objective point had much more drama. With WoN gone, there was a feeling that we needed to cultivate what the Tervigons made to construct a good defense when the enemy attack landed. Likewise, the new toughness of warriors meant that we had some shock troops that could also count the point for our team in SG. This all added up to more uncertainty, more choice, and thus a lot more fun.

4) The shooting phase of the Tyranid turn suddenly became a time of some drama. With some real weapons that can crack open vehicles, and more abundant template fire, and especially the fact that most all units had at least something to shoot (we used bioplasma on the fexes) (the BS on the pod turned out to be an interesting option); one of the obligatory phases of the game that we all play through got more interesting.

4) The challenge in using the less-than-great options turned into a fun exercise by itself. In Pitched battle deployments, we had to think hard about how to make the Fexes and Tyrants survivable. We kept brainstorming how (if he stays at current cost) to make the 'fex good..and came to the conclusion it lay in brooding them up in a nidzilla scenario. If there is dissapointment, it will come later. For now, fun.


Overall, with so many points where player choice could turn the game one way or another, and with so many more options (making the ones you'd picked feel more special), the army felt really entertaining.
___
RE: things dying too fast.
Really, the odd thing was not that the Fex costed too many points, but instead that it only had 4 wounds. With the Terv and Trygon/Mawloc sporting six, our great dissapointment lay there. On the other side of the coin, regenerating Tervs had an endurance not yet seen in an MC--One lasted out two turns of fire from two Pulse/Star falcons. The fact that those falcons hadn't turbo boosted to a shocking position on those same turns cost the enemy the game.

Warriors were fine. With cross-allocation and the alpha, allocation tricks saved them from any great embarassement. Hiding behind their pods meant that even had their been BC's or other big cannons on the board, they would've been alright. Yes, they're still brittle, as before, but they improved so much that they now can be called an 'arm of decision.'

[HsojVvad]

Thanks again Justinian, it is refreshing to read something that is not doom and gloom. I am starting to look forward to the Tyranids again.