Warhammer Historicals is dead

[Bigred]

Going out with a whimper... Warhammer Historicals slips under the waves... GW never really seemed to have to the heart for it.

http://warhammer-historical.com/

[Aldramelech]

It's all about cost, they priced themselves out of the market and tbh some of their rules weren't that good, I hold up the truly abysmal Trafalgar as the prime example.

As a rule most historical gamers do not want huge great big fat rules books that are a quarter rules and 3 quarters bumf and cost £60. The people I know (and respect) in the hobby that paid the money for Kampfgruppe Normandy have lots of good things to say about them but the vast majority looked no further then the price and said "I aint paying that".

There are so many great inexpensive and above all innovative systems out there and they made the mistake that, how can I put this politely?, they thought historical gamers are as "easy to sell to?" (dodged that bullet thew) as they're Fantasy/Sci-Fi customers.

[eldargal]

When I first heard about Warhammer Historicals I assumed there would be a miniature range with it, and that was what got me excited. As there wasn't it just never really caught my interest or that of my group. GW does miniatures brilliantly and having rules with no miniatures just seemed off. Though to be fair my interest in historicals was always low as I get my history fix from reenactment.

[Aldramelech]

There is no possible way GW could compete in the Historical figures market.

[eldargal]

Not really the point. GW does miniatures best, GW not doing historical miniatures rendered Warhammer Historicals rather pointless and at odds with the rest of the company. Clearly my group aren't the only ones that thought so as it never really took off.

[Aldramelech]

Nope, it is as I've already said, they priced themselves out of the market. The historical rules market is incredibly competitive and very few rules sets have a dedicated miniature line attached to them, historical gamers do not like being told what figures to buy.

Games Workshop won't do historical figures because they know we won't pay the kind of price they would ask for them, they wouldn't be able to bully the competition and they wouldn't be able too manipulate the market through rule changes and updates.

If the excellent plastic sets from Perry miniatures, The Plastic Soldier Company, Gripping Beast, Conquest Games and many others, all of which are priced far lower then GW products, wouldn't temp your group into historical gaming, I fail to see how anything the evil empire would produce would change your mind.

[eldargal]

Well my brothers are into historicals to be fair, just not in a big way. I also keep an eye on a lot of the ranges in case I spot any that would be useful for my WFB Alternate miniatures thread. Honestly the only company that produces plastic miniatures that I would consider on a par with GW on sculpt quality would be the Perry twins and Fireforge games. I exclude WWII stuff which I know nothing about.

But still missing the point Aldy, which is probably my fault for explaining it poorly. I'm not saying GW could compete on the historical miniatures marklet. I'm just saying that their focus is the miniatures, they make superb miniatures and charge a premium price for it. By having a small subsidiary making rulesets of varying quality with no accompanying miniatures it just didn't seem to synergise with what the companies priorities were. As a result it never seemed to get the support that it needed and it never really took off.

What I'm trying to say is that Warhammer Historical always seemed to just not fit in with what GW did, how it operated and what its priorities were.

[Aldramelech]

I have to disagree, This whole GW make excellent miniatures and charge a premium price for it smacks of the Emperors new cloths to me.

I've just recently finished a large Dark Ages project where I used plastic minis from 3 different company's and am current working on a large Napoleonic project that is using plastics from two other companies. All 5 of these are producing figures at least as good and a hell of alot cheaper.

As to vehicles, how much do GW charge for a tank these days? £31.00! Go to ebay and look at 1/48 hobbyboss, us lucky historical gamers are getting our tanks (and top quality tanks with etched brass parts with options that are far superior to any GW kit) for as little as £7.00! Yes £7.00...................

I think that the cleverest thing GW ever did was convince you lot that brand loyalty is good for you, in historical gaming brand loyalty virtually does not exist, we go look for the right figures for the right price and we don't much care who makes them.

Now with the rules it all comes down to cost again, not supported? How many supplements were there for WAB?

It had nothing to do with support and everything to do with the cost. I've mentioned Kampfgruppe Normandy already and as I've said they actually have a good rep in Historical circles, they are well written and give a really good accurate game but they came with all the usual rubbish you get with a GW rulebook (gallery's, how to paint, "fluff" as you'd call it) and it cost £60.00.

This just don't work in this market, Myself and the hundreds of other historical gamers I know already own hundreds of books on the subject already, I own 12 books on the the subject of German tank camouflage alone:eek: What they should have done was publish the rules without all that stuff for around £20.00 and they would have sold a hell of a lot more.

Historical Gamers tend to "collect" rules and loyalty to a single ruleset is also rare, we are quite flighty in that respect, we are always looking for something new, I own 6 different rulesets for WW2 alone and this is typical. Consequently we don't like to invest too much in a ruleset we may not play after the first couple of games, I've got no problem spending a tenner here or fifteen quid there but I ABSOLUTELY would not spend £60.00.

Cost. All about cost.

[Denzark]

'Spose GW had originally thought maybe GW fans would progress as they 'mature' in wargamings terms, onto historicals - and thought they might as well have a go at retaining them/relying/milking their loyalty.

Also may have been to keep some of their designers happy with other rulesets?

But from a GW perspective there is 2 problems. Firstly, you can't compel use of own miniatures - so any publications will show other companies stuff (lack of own range, how can you tell a converted army who is whose etc - one panzer grenadier looks like another) and also, when afore mentioned gamer matures, you encounter the other historicals who are as Mr A said, not loyal to1 ruleset on its own - there are alternatives.

So quite simply, GW have got something not as profitable as their own model - why support and divert resources - or to get doctrinal - is selection and maintenance of the aim not a principle of war???

My last thought on this is that the original 40K/WFB concept - where the rules pretty much crossed over (pre-2nd Ed 40K) so you could incorporate the other system for narrative wargaming, was pretty sound. But also ease of transferrance - I need x to hit with BS 4 here, I need it over there as well - so no problem dipping in and out.

If you could also do this and apply it to historicals, ie use the same system, just afew tweaks and army lists - you should be able to attract people in - if they were doing something different (stand fast Trafalgar or whatever) then no wonder it wasn't working.

[eldargal]

The difference is anyone can produce historical miniatures as there is no IP, this drives prices down. Only GW produce Eldar, so if you want Eldar you have to pay GWs prices (or discounted) But still missing the point:

GW is a miniatures company, Warhammer Historicals didn't have miniatures. It was always at odds with the companies focus because when it comes down to it people associate GW with their unique settings and their miniatures. The rules are almost peripheral. It just made no sense for GW to go down this route. If they weren't going to play to their strengths (miniatures) because they couldn't compete then they shouldn't have got involved at all.

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