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View Full Version : A rumor I heard about Chaos Marines...



Kefka
09-23-2009, 02:36 AM
I've heard on a few other forum sites, or by people at my GW, that Chaos Marines might be getting a new book, or mini-dex, or White Dwarf update. Something along the lines of "Chaos Legions."
Current rumors is that it will allow you to conceivably play as the other chaos legions (word bearers, night lords, etc.) instead of being a mash-up of chaos marines all working together like best buddies.

Anyone else hear any rumors or ideas along this line?

Fantomex
09-23-2009, 03:27 AM
Yep, but not in the next year or two. At least.

It has been bandied about, and yes GW would like to give some proper love to each individual legion in one lovely tome, but it won't happen for a while.
Theres far too much more that needs doing before they can turn to a pet project like this, unfortunately..

Kefka
09-23-2009, 03:45 AM
Yeah, I really hope it does happen, but I am willing to wait. I had just finished a Word Bearers army (deamons, Dark Apostles and all) when the new book came out and made 55% of my list illeagal. Haven't touched the models since because It's so hard to make a themed list in that army that doesn't pertain to certain God(s) and still play half decently.
Well, I'll bunker down and wait, got plenty of other projects, but my money will definitely be put away for when (and if) this comes up again.

Shadow Queen
09-23-2009, 06:05 AM
I know that feeling with my Iron Warriors.

Dosadi
09-23-2009, 07:32 AM
I have to wonder what exactly a “Legions” ‘dex would contain?

I personally feel the current Chaos codex is functional albeit a little bland. What I’d really like is a Codex that does for Chaos Marines what C:SM did for Loyalist Marines. Abbadon in the role of Marneus Calgar; and then a special character representing each undivided legion that would modify the main list in some way. I find the “Chapter Tactics” mechanic very straight forward and would support something similar for the undivided legions.

A Warsmith character for the Iron warriors would allow you to take more Heavy Support at the expense of Fast Attack for instance, as well as kitting him out with some special equipment (like a servo-harness). Perhaps some special siege rule when playing Planetstrike where forces under his command ca re-roll to penetrate Bastions, etc.

I’m sure people can come up with some other, better examples of stereotypical “Legion” characters (let’s hear ‘em!).

Moving on to the four dedicated legions; do you think there is enough material to warrant a codex for each of them? The challenge is in making each one of these legions a flexible army list with enough variety to make them balanced while maintaining their individual flavor. Khorne is pretty straight forward assault, where as Thousand Suns are a ponderous bunch of automatons. Sure, each legion would gain access to their patron god’s daemons but how much more is there to make an entire list? You can invent some new unit types, make some customizable characters and unique vehicle variants, but at what point do the designers start grasping at straws trying to come up with a full army list worth of stuff that makes the legions unique to themselves? I’m not saying I’m against the idea or that I don’t think it can be done. But I think it’s a much bigger job than many people assume.

Along with that I have to wonder how much money making potential there is in separate legion books. Despite what we all hope and wish for, GW is a business and their bottom line tends to dictate what get’s produced. Does GW really think they can make money of a Thousand Sons Codex? One could point to the plethora of loyalist marines as an example. But we need to realize that marines are an anomalous factor in 40k; they outsell everything else GW produces combined. There is a market for a new loyalist marine codex every six months. I can assure you that even the “non-codex” marines out sell chaos marines. There are probably way more Space Wolf players than World Eater players and Thousand Sons players put together. GW only needs to look at how many Chaos Marine Squad boxes they sell in comparison to Space Marine Tactical Squad boxes to see where their bread gets buttered. Again, I’m not saying I don’t think it will happen, just that I think it’s an up-hill battle for the studio to get the go-ahead from the bean counters.
Ultimately what I’d expect from a 5th edition Chaos Space Marine codex would be a list with about 10 special characters in it; one for each of the Legions that modify the main army lists in some way to suit their way of making war. Throw Fabius Bile and Huron Blackheart in with their own “legion” style rules. They will put power specific daemons back in the codex in some way even if it’s just summoned greater/lesser daemons that you can put marks onto.

I’ve got a pretty big wish-list for how I envision Chaos Marines, so perhaps I’ll go into that more elsewhere. This post in long enough as it is and I feel an entirely new thread coming on…:D


Dosadi

BDub
09-23-2009, 09:23 AM
I totally get where you are coming from - Individual Legion Codices are long over due. But you know, honestly I'd settle for a Renegades Mini Dex. Something that would let you build post heresy Marine or Marine/IG forces. You know, Havocs/Devastators in a Razorback, woot! I feel that the Chaos Codex doesn't give you any way to fluffily build this kind of force - hell it doesn't let you fluffily build a Chaos Legion force either.

MUMBLES
09-23-2009, 09:49 AM
I'm right there with you on the word bearers. I had a massive collection of the old daemons range of models, so now I have a fantasy daemons army...that is EXTREMELY heavy.

Duke
09-23-2009, 11:17 AM
@Dosadi: You, my firend, are spot on. I have had many of the same thoughts. I would love to see individual Legion Codecies, but I don't want GW to stretch the envelope to do it. For example, besides bezerkers, what would be the troops in a Khorne list? You can't rely on daemons of Khorne to fill it in because you then nerf the Daemons codex.

I could see "Codex: Legions" being a WD article, or a small mini-dex much like 3rd ed blood angels. Though I wish they would have done C:CSM like they did C: SM. E.G. "Kharn giving all bezerkers fleet (OUCH!)" That woud have been much better in my humble opinion.

DUKE

sangrail777
09-23-2009, 12:06 PM
Right on Dosadi:D

Lord Anubis
09-23-2009, 12:51 PM
Honestly, with the way most of the other books are going, they could solve 90% of the complaints (because there's always that 10% that complain no matter what) just by doing a series of White Dwarf articles on the various Chaos special characters.

Here's a page or two of fluff on Kharn, and if Kharn one of your HQ choices your army gets these two rules and/or alterations (insert Word Eaters- type rule).

Here's a page or two of fluff on Ahriman, and if he's one of your HQ choices your army gets these rules and alterations (insert Thousand Sons-type rule).

Here's a page or two on Fabius Bile. He's an upgrade for a squad of Chaos Marines, and if you take him... (insert New Men-type rule)

Heck, create a pocket rule for them like Legion Legends or something to cut out conflicts (no Nurgle/Tzeentch combo dreadnaughts) and you're off and running. Plus,there's a guaranteed two or three pages of White Dwarf they don't nee to find material for for a year.

Abaddon, Kharn, Ahriman, Lucius, Typhus, Honsou, Fabius... heck, you could get desperate and toss in Cypher and Doomrider, even. :D

Kanaellars
09-23-2009, 01:15 PM
Anyone remember the days when White Dwarf used to actually include variant army lists and special characters?

This isnt anything new.... its something that they HAD and dropped.

Anyone remember the "Chapter Approved" articles?

It was great.... so they dropped it.

archimbald
09-23-2009, 01:26 PM
It was great.... so they dropped it.yeah have heard it passed around gw belfast tho. liked old chaos codex better. fact still play with it sometimes.anyone member the zombies from chapter approved. least i think thats what it was in??

darth_papi76
09-23-2009, 05:17 PM
I think GW should go back to putting Chapter Approved articles in White Dwarf and then release PDFs later on. The current Chaos Codex is good and balanced. It just isn't sexy. People want tp play their fluff. I don't understand why they got rid of Chapter Approved in the first place. That kind of stuff would inspire us to start new armies and collect whacky things. Plus it might make WD worth it.

Logan
09-23-2009, 06:13 PM
Some people still think of White Dwarf as a magazine, it's not, it's a catalogue supplement with manufacturer reviews that is all.
So no Chapter Approved, no comic strips, no reader articles, no none GW stuff, no battle reports that dont have the latest army in (who 95% of the time win, what a coincidence), etc...
Sorry I know this is off topic but I remember when WD was a mag (I am old).
I dont buy it any more, everything in it that I need is on the GW website each month with a handy add to cart button next to it if I like what I see.

Brass Scorpion
09-23-2009, 08:25 PM
The current Chaos Marine Codex is only 2 years old. Don't expect to see a new version of it for quite some time. As for rumors of "Legion Codex" books, that does not appear to be imminent at all though the idea has been mentioned as a long-term possibility by the studio, hence the rumors.

TSINI
09-24-2009, 04:37 AM
Some people still think of White Dwarf as a magazine, it's not, it's a catalogue supplement with manufacturer reviews that is all.
So no Chapter Approved, no comic strips, no reader articles, no none GW stuff, no battle reports that dont have the latest army in (who 95% of the time win, what a coincidence), etc...
Sorry I know this is off topic but I remember when WD was a mag (I am old).
I dont buy it any more, everything in it that I need is on the GW website each month with a handy add to cart button next to it if I like what I see.

i agree with this. white dwarf is no better than an advertising leaflet you spend £3-£4 (i havent bought one for going on 8 years now so the price is obviously higher)

bring back the days when the "guest army" had non-GW stand ins for special characters, or a scratchbuilt baneblade, or even just a one off greenstuff sculpted monster. and battle reports were "just cause" not "in time with release"

Tacoo
09-24-2009, 07:02 AM
too baf white dwarf is probably never going back..... unless..... god forbid...... GW actually takes our opinons.

as for a legion dex, it could be simple, doesnt fantasy have 3 chaos books, beast, warrior, and daemons? for us we could have renegade, legion, and alrdy have daemons. for HQ on top of the famous ones and other mentioned, add a couple more. as iv seen on a mod for elites we could have a squad of aspiring scorers (got it off a mod), Khorne, a squad of skull champions with rage, and powerweapons, and furious charge that get 2 bonus attacks for charging. Slannesh, a squad of devestator sound marines, and for nurgle,maybe a squad with poisoned bolters, and all upgrades of poision 2+. Fast attack could be somthing like sound marines on jet bikes, and anytime they move flat out all units thay pass over take like d6 hits, but the unit can never stay still, nurgle cant thing of here since nurgle and fast never go in my mind, thousand sons could be maybe some sorta assault troop that can choose to deepstrike every turn, like the necron lord with his shroud, and who wouldnt want to see screaming bezerkers flying across the field of khorne. of course theres also stuff like word bearers and alpha legion that would need to be included.

AirHorse
09-24-2009, 08:37 AM
I reckon tacoo more or less said what i feel. I reckon chaos would benefit from a three codex style deal, Legions, Renegades and daemons would be perfect if you ask me.

Legions clearly would have a 100% focus on chaos marines, while daemons would be the demon equivalent. Renegades would be an awesome codex, in a similar vein to the inquisition codices. Having renegade marines alongside traitor guardsmen, cultists and mutants. Would make a really interesting codex if you ask me. I would especially like it if the renegade marines were quite limited in nature they should have a pretty restricted armoury in general, vehicles especially should be hard to come by(i mean renegade marines are mostly groups of marines from all over who banded together).

Id buy a chaos renegades codex even with no plan to make an army if it was anything like this :P would be an awesome book.

firestorm
09-24-2009, 08:50 AM
Would doing Codex: Chaos Legions be all that difficult?

Think about it: most of the units would be repeated from either the CSM or Daemons Codexes (so you have the correct daemons, e.g. Bllod Letter/Thirsters/Flesh Hounds for a World Eaters army). A supplement, a la the old Craftworld Eldar, Armageddon or Eye of Terror codices would suffice for this.

You would only need to do 2-3 pages on each legion, like in the previous Chaos 'Dex, with details of what you can and can't take in the list (e.g. no Raptors in Nurgle/Death Guard list), perhaps a special unit type, abilities, and/or characters for each Legion (for example, I was thinking earlier today of a Death Guard special character that would allow players to generate a unit of D3 Zombies per turn - how awesome would that be! :D ).

I think that format would be adequate, allow players like the OP who currently can't use almost half the miniatures they've got to be able to field a legal army again.

It would be good if this could happen in 2011, but those players baying for a Dark Eldar are Necron update are right, those codices should take priority.

Having said that I am amazed that GW are doing Nids AGAIN (3rd time in 9 years!!!) over the aforementioned 'dexes...

Dosadi
09-24-2009, 09:28 AM
Anyone remember the days when White Dwarf used to actually include variant army lists and special characters?

This isnt anything new.... its something that they HAD and dropped.

Anyone remember the "Chapter Approved" articles?

It was great.... so they dropped it.

GW's reasoning for dropping Chapter Approved and alternate lists was that people had to search through all these volumes to find things. They also contend that not everyone has access to the internet so players would be at a disadvantage when playing against somehting they had never heard of. Also, there is the tournament scene to think about. Enforcement of "official" lists is not somehting GW is really interested in doing and having all these sub-lists floating around will only further confuse things. This is all GW's reasoning, not mine. However, I am a big fan of the "One List to Rule them All" approach. The new Space Marine codex shows that you can indeed pack a lot of stuff into a single list and with a few tweaks provided by Special Characters, players are able to make the list they want. This is the way I feel they should approach the next Chaos Space Marine Codex.



yeah have heard it passed around gw belfast tho. liked old chaos codex better. fact still play with it sometimes.anyone member the zombies from chapter approved. least i think thats what it was in??

You typed this with your thumbs didn't you? Witness the end of the englsih language. ;)



Dosadi

Brass Scorpion
09-24-2009, 09:31 AM
I actually like the fact that they stopped posting updates like Chapter Approved and online updates for the exact reasons stated above. Even though I have access to those resources, for me that was "no way to run a game system". People shouldn't have to scrounge around for updates or worry that after they buy an expensive rule book that some whimsical addenda they've never seen will suddenly alter the rules in that book.

Havik110
09-24-2009, 02:42 PM
I'd like to see chaos legions but anyone who doesnt say that the khorne demon bomb, or iron warriors (guard makes that look pathetic now), or the infiltrating night lords veterans that used to kill a crap load with 1st turn assaults wasnt completely OP...

The current list sucks with the exception of plague marines and lash...

But part of the game of 40k is building fluffy lists that have a chance...GW has been returning to that with orks, guard, and now wolves...all can build very competitive very fluffy lists...time to bring that back to chaos, time to see the night lords and alpha legion again...

Duke
09-24-2009, 03:53 PM
As I think about it more I have the itching feeling that C: Legions is a LONG way off, if ever. Essentially, GW has made C: CSM to be a "create your own or follow the legions," idea. If you want World Eaters then you can do that, same with the other Legions. Though I would like to see the Legions have their own codecies I don't think it will happen.


As far as Chapter Approved and White Dwarf. I really did like it when WD was a magazine, whoever said it was a supplement to their catalouge is right on! When was the last time Dark Eldar/ Necrons were the headliner in a battle report. I recall one Bat. Rep. that had a 30,000 point battle (WHFB) just for fun! Oddly enough it wasn't to pitch their new supplement for large battles in WHFB (can you imagine!!?! lol). I would love to see chapter approved come back, but only be for 'friendly ideas,' and not tournie approved.

that is my two cents


DUKE

mountaincycle661
09-24-2009, 08:58 PM
I honestly dont think it would be very hard to produce one book for the Legions. Hell, they did it for the loyalists! black templars, space wolves, blood angels, dark angels and the vanilla marine codex. FIVE codexes....And they really all share the same stuff. They can (more or less) all take drednaughts, predators, tactical squads, devestators, assault marines, scouts, etc...

So if GW can produce all these books for the loyalists, why cant they do it for the chaos counterparts? Maybe because its difficult/wierd to come up with new models for them? I mean, there really wasnt a whole lot of model variety in the last codex if you played by the strict legion rules. If you played thousand sons, you played with thousand sons, rhinos, a defiler and HQ choices. Maybe some possessed. But that was it. GW would have to make models for all kinds of unit entries to flush out the codex with different units. While im all for it, i doubt GW is as enthusiastic as I am. ;-)

MajorSoB
09-24-2009, 11:14 PM
Let's all face it the reason GW has gone in the direction it currently is in is for one reason along....a huge void of talent!

It took talent to come up with Chapter Approved articles that added flavor to the game.
It took talent to answer questions from readers.
It took talent to write FAQ ( rather than have random gamers write them for you!)
It took talent to design codexes that were both fun and balanced.

Right now GW cannot do any of these things. Whoever suggested GW cares about competitive play is crazy. GW cares about its fat bottom line, period! Their support for corporate sponsored GT events should be your first clue just how little they care about balance and competitive play. They only sponsor 'ard Boyz events now that are held at independent retailers and have no balance whatsoever built into them.

GW will continue to treat Chaos Marines in the fashion that they are currently treated in for the simple fact that they are not Space Marines. The Smurfs and their brethren are GW's cash cow and will always receive favored treatment because they are the center point and true money generator of the game. Chaos was screwed up by Alessio and Gav ( Ace and Gary ) and it will be a long time before a fix is on the horizon. You know how I know this.? Again its simple, Jervis talked about it at an event over a year and half ago! You can see how much headway there has been made since then.

White Dwarf has indeed fallen into a self promoting catalog that occasionally redeems itself for a brief moment when it features one of the talented members of the Heavy Metal painting team. They are truly the bright spot in a light less void.

As for rumors about Chaos Space Marines, they are as believable as the rumors about Necrons and Dark Eldar. You are looking at Nids next with anything else is a long, long way off!