Lack of Female Action Heroes

[MaltonNecromancer]

There was an interesting discussion about feminism here a while back, and while surfing on Jezebel (the only other blog site besides BoLS I frequent), I found an excellent article that made me think of the discussions here:

http://jezebel.com/5798986/what-makes-a-perfect-female-action-hero

Imagine a 40K version of someone like Lisbeth Salander. That would be awesome beyond words. The thing would be getting someone like Gina Carano or Ronda Rousey to play her.

As a culture, we basically need a distaff counterpart to Jason Statham - a woman who doesn't do "sensitive" or "romance", but who just kills the baddies in acts of spectacularly pragmatic violence.

As an addendum, there's also this excellent little piece I found by Greg Rucka.

http://io9.com/5912366/why-i-write-strong-female-characters

[eldargal]

The first article is quite good, though I disagree about Jolie in Tomb Raider. The films were terrbile and instead of a strong, modenr action hereo I saw an insipid tramp but whatever. I loathe Angelina Jolie so I may be biased.

The second article is brilliant, Rucka really gets it. Men and women are different and we perceive the world differently, and that is why doing what some people advocate 'just make the male heroes female' won't work.

I really like the quote from the first comment on the Rucka article:


Interviewer: "Hey Joss, why do you write such strong female characters?"

Joss Whedon: "Because you're still asking me that question."

One reason I love Buffy so much is that she is a 'Strong Female Character' but she is also feminine. Having female characters which are strong by basically being manly is just as bad as having silly, frivolous female characters. Strength is not an exclusively male trait.

[Psychosplodge]

Lara Croft is nothing more than a console gamers wet dream, there's nothing redeeming about her as a character.

I was going to suggest tank girl, but she's a bit of tomboy so does it count? Buffy might be a reasonable suggestion. and what about hit girl? lol

[SotonShades]

I think Summer Glau is the nearest we've got to a female equivolent to jason Stathem at the moment. That said, most of the characters that I have seen her play could be male or female to a certain extent.

Let Joss Whedon do more stuff! And write it into his contracts that his shows cannot be cancelled until the end of the second season.

[eldargal]

The big irony about the Tomb Raider films, from an archaeological perspective, is that the bad guys seemed to do everything right in terms of following archaeological principles. Then the good guy comes in, shoots them and basically loots the valuable bits.:rolleyes:

River Tam was pretty feminine and non-gender transferable, Summer Glau ftw.

[SotonShades]

River Tam was pretty feminine and non-gender transferable, Summer Glau ftw.

Apart from the odd joke about Jane being beat up by an 80 pound little girl, I'm not sure how different the story would have been if River had been Simon's younger brother. I'm certain that as a teenage girl Terminator, the concept was just so fanboys could get more T&A after Terminator 3. Maybe I missed the point somewhat.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Apart from the odd joke about Jane being beat up by an 80 pound little girl

I always assumed it was because a.) she was using telekinesis subconsciously and b.) ballet makes you strong beyond words, and Summer Glau trained in ballet for many years.

I definitely agree she's the closest to Statham. She was genuinely terrifying in Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (now THAT was a series that got cancelled too soon).

Not a huge fan of Lara Croft or Angeline Jolie myself (although Jolie was undeniably excellent in "Girl, Interrupted".)

It's the missing comma in the phrase "strong female character". It should be "strong, female character". My favourite strong female characters are so rarely action heroes. They can be summarised as "Any female character from "Buffy"; any female character from "A Game of Thrones"; any female character written by Graham Linehan but especially Mrs. Doyle (because so very few comedy writers these days are prepared to write a female character who's not the Only Sane Man/ victim of the male characters' stupidity); and universe A Olivia Dunham from "Fringe".

In the interest of comedy, I also post this image, which asks the question - "What happens if you pose the male Avengers like the female one?"

Magic, my friends. Magic.

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17m1f6r0jpaqwjpg/original.jpg

[eldargal]

I don't mind the poses actually, the men look masculine and the woman* looks feminine, nothing wrong with that. I don't want to see strong equated to masculine as I said. Black Widow is absolutely badass without being at all masculine.:)


*The singular is the only problem.

[wittdooley]

Rucka knows what he's talking about because Queen and Country is incredible.

How has THAT not become a movie or TV series yet? Sorta beyond me.

[DarkLink]

http://superredundant.com/comics/2012-05-22-Strip-134.jpg

[scadugenga]

Those were interesting reads--thanks, Malton.

However, there are a number of good female "action heroes" out there now, and in the past:

Gina Carano in Haywire

As much as some might hate her, Angelina Jolie rocked in Salt.

We all know and love Black Widow from IM2 and The Avengers---'nuff said.

But one of the original action heroine's from the 80's: Sigourney Weaver as Ripley. In fact, she should be THE measurement of the female action hero. (In fact, every female colonial marine in Aliens was pretty kick ***.)

Michelle Gellar as Buffy, Eliza Dushku as Faith. 'natch.

But let's not forget Geena Davis in The Long Kiss Goodnight. An anti-hero, to be sure--but damn! (We can even forgive her for Cutthroat Island...)

Renee Russo from the Lethal Weapon movies.

Maggie Q from Nikkita

Michelle Rodriguez in S.W.A.T.

And perhaps one of the greatest asian actress heroines: Michelle Yeoh.

Strong female action heroes abound. You just have to not miss the forest for the trees..

[MaltonNecromancer]

Strong female action heroes abound. You just have to not miss the forest for the trees..

"strong" shouldn't exclusively mean "good at fighting", just "competent" - too often writers take it to mean "give her a gun and let her stomp on people". Frankly, I'd like a few more Clarice Starlings (Jodie Foster version, not others) - not good at fighting, good at their jobs, and with absolutely NO romantic subplot. The fact that at no stage does Clarice have the slightest romance in the whole of "Silence of the Lambs" pleased me immensely, and was one of the main reasons I didn't really like "Hannibal".

[eldargal]

Though to be fair most male action heroes get a cheesey romance sub-plot too.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Not if you're Jason Statham. :)

I don't know, it's the whole Bechdel Test thing.

This video is the one I've found that summarises it best: http://www.buzzfeed.com/leefalhead/the-bechdel-test-1dq8

Taking Buffy as an example (because she's an excellent on) Buffy did romance, but her character was far more than just girl who knows about vampires who wants a boyfriend (hello Bella!). She had a whole series of serious flaws, including ones that hurt her (her suicidal depression in season 6), as well as ones that hurt others (her control freakery in season 7; her smothering of Dawn in the same season). I know a lot of people dislike the later seasons (and in season 7's case, with good reason), but I enjoyed the fact that Buffy was largely flawed. I'm a great believer in harmartia.

I include the great Caitlin Moran in the name of comdedy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ4DzEJ8ax4

[eldargal]

Agreed re: Buffy.

Also that second video is spot on. Especially about shoes, though dead wrong on flipflops. They should be criminalised. There is actually plenty of lovely shoes available that don't have stupid heals, or have well made heals that don't break your ankles. Problem is every dozy bint out there goes and buys the stupid ones because that is what some other dozy bint writing a magazine tells them they should buy.

[Aldramelech]

Kate Beckinsale anybody?

[Denzark]

My heroine of the moment is Lisbeth Salander.

[scadugenga]

"strong" shouldn't exclusively mean "good at fighting", just "competent" - too often writers take it to mean "give her a gun and let her stomp on people". Frankly, I'd like a few more Clarice Starlings (Jodie Foster version, not others) - not good at fighting, good at their jobs, and with absolutely NO romantic subplot. The fact that at no stage does Clarice have the slightest romance in the whole of "Silence of the Lambs" pleased me immensely, and was one of the main reasons I didn't really like "Hannibal".

Dude, the tropic is female action hero...

That implies good at fighting.

[DarkLink]

He's saying that the defining quality features of a good, female action hero shouldn't simply be 'they're really good at waif-fu". Some of the characters you list seem like genuine women, and some are just kung fu fighters in tight clothing.

More importantly, most of the characters in this category are secondary characters. They're the male lead's sidekick and/or rival and/or romantic interest.

Black actors suffer a similar problem. Think about how many movies (ignoring movies with an all black cast) that have a black male lead. Denzel Washington and Will Smith are practically the only black actors that have been leads in multiple major movies. Even Morgan Freeman usually plays a secondary character.

[eldargal]

On a vaguely related note, Scarlett Johansson is now my favourite actress:

Reporter: I have a question to Robert and to Scarlett. Firstly to Robert, throughout Iron Man 1 and 2, Tony Stark started off as a very egotistical character but learns how to fight as a team. And so how did you approach this role, bearing in mind that kind of maturity as a human being when it comes to the Tony Stark character, and did you learn anything throughout the three movies that you made?

And to Scarlett, to get into shape for Black Widow did you have anything special to do in terms of the diet, like did you have to eat any specific food, or that sort of thing?

Scarlett: How come you get the really interesting existential question, and I get the like, "rabbit food" question?
From here (http://www.dollymix.tv/2012/05/scarlett_johansson_sums_up_ind.html). Is it any wonder we struggle to get female action heroes taken seriously when all the media can talk about is their costume and how they fit into it.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Is it any wonder we struggle to get female action heroes taken seriously when all the media can talk about is their costume and how they fit into it.

Agreed. It's like the old line about Ginger Rogers. She did everything Fred Astaire did... only backwards and in high heels. The sad thing for me is that Black Widow isn't even that interesting a character in Avengers; she's not bad, but she's no Tony Stark :(

Also, is anyone else tired of waif-fu? I mean, it's fine and all - I'm not knocking Summer Glau for a moment. But it always looks so fake. Why can't we have more female action heroes with physiques that befit their skills. We wouldn't accept a Steve Rogers as Captain America with his puny physique; why does that mean we accept Black Widow with hers? Someone who has trained to fight professionally has a very definite "fighters" body shape - can't we embrace that?

As they are our current examples, compare Scarlett Johansson to Gina Carano:
http://www.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/scarlett_johansson_bikini.jpg
http://www.wildsound.ca/images/gina_carano_muscles.jpg

Now, I'm not saying that one is better than the other, one is better looking than the other, etc... I'm saying one of those women looks like she could fight professionally, and one doesn't.

Why, why must we have endless waifs (often played by actresses who clearly have no idea how to actually throw a punch)?

For that matter, would it hurt to have some overweight female characters who were presented as both desirable and cool, rather than the end of endless jokes?

*Sigh*

At least there's the possiblity of a "Runaways" film and Gertrude Yorkes...

http://badgerthegnome.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/arsenic.jpg?w=497

[eldargal]

Well to me Black Widow is more interesting than Tony Stark because all she has is her body and intelligence, no fancy suit and billions of dollars. I'm not bashing Tony Stark either, a great character, but he has virtually unlimited resources whereas Black Widow just has herself.

The waif-fu thing is a complicated one. for example, I've been doing Western martial arts since I was five, I punch like a male boxer but I look more like Ms Johannson than I do Ms Carano (well I suppose I might be somewhere between the two). My muscles are rock hard but they just don't bulk up like that. Also you don't need that kind of heavy muscle growth to use many martial arts effectively.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Well to me Black Widow is more interesting than Tony Stark because all she has is her body and intelligence, no fancy suit and billions of dollars.

I disn't know anything about her before the film, and I don't really now. I couldn't tell you what she hopes for or believes in, what her interests are, or what her foibles are. Compare that to the others:

Tony Stark: has father issues; drinks to deal with them. Inferiority complex - uses sarcasm to deflect. Self-loathing brought about by guilt due to being an ex-weapons manufacturer. Has deep feelings for Pepper Potts, but largely due to inability to function well with other human beings - srrounds himself with robots because they're easier to cope with. Jealously guards Iron Man suit out of a sense of duty (re: prior weapons designer guilt) as well as the ego-trip of being a superhero.

Captain America: poor health to the point of disability has given him issues regarding a need to overperform by way of compensation. Is decent, hard-working and Christian. Temporal fish-out-of-water, still readjusting to issues of life in modern world now, as well as all loved ones being dead. Dislike of bullies driven by victimised upbringing. Excellent leader of people, but quiet in private. Artistic temperament revealed by drawing caricature backstage when alone. Also displays sense of satire, inclusing of himself.

Hulk: extreme insecurities lead to risk-taking behaviour. Anger management problems possibly worst of any human being on Earth. Paranoid due to years of pursuit, longing for calm quiet life, desperate to undo his mistakes and atone - never can. Tries to do good in small ways in the hopes that this will in some way make up for the deaths and chaos he is perosnally responsible for - knows he never can. Dissasociative personality, referring to the Hulk as a seperate identity when they're not (as his self-acceptance at the end of the film proves - when he accepts that he is the Hulk, he can finally control the damage).

Thor: feels sense of responsibility and duty; conflicted feelings for brother - desperately wants to save him, knows he can't. Genuinely cares for humanity, but doesn't angst over it - just jumps right in. Tendency not to think first causes issues, and is something of an achilles' heel. Tearaway past has been discarded, and lends him maturity, and a measure of wisdom.

Black Widow: combat skills, deceptive skills, murky past, likes Hawkeye. Angsty over something - no idea what.

Now, I'm not saying that this is the fault of the Avengers film. There's seven or so protagonists jumbling about in there, and the fact that it has a coherent narrative and is as funny as it is is a testament to Joss Whedon's skill as a storyteller. Also, the fact that Black Widow hasn't had a film of her own is a huge part of the issue - hopefully one that will be corrected when her own is eventually released. The whole superspy archetype has legs, and especially in the Marvel universe.

The issue is, compared to the boys, at the moment, she's still a fairly flat character, because we don't know that much about her and seeing as the Avengers comics I've read have been univerally dreadful, especially the dross written by Mark "I've Not Experienced Life, But I Have Watched A Lot Of Movies" Millar, I don't plan on reading any of her stories, that's not going to change any time soon.

[DarkLink]

Hawkeye and Black Widow are the only two Avengers who didn't get their own movie. They're secondary characters, and their are four high profile main characters competing for screentime, which means the debt subplot is actually not too bad. We know there's something going on with both of them, so they're not flat, we just didn't get an opportunity to see what's going on and so they're not as interesting as the other Avengers. There's only so much screentime you can cram into a movie before it goes over budget and ruins the pacing, and overall they did a pretty good job.

[eldargal]

Well I didn't know more than the names of Iron Man, thor and Hulk prior to seeing the film and I felt Black Widow was particularly interesting. Having since seen the other films in the series they certainly have a lot more depth now, but I still feel Black Widow stands up there with them.

[Necron2.0]

It is difficult to know what the "truth" about Natalia Romanova (aka Black Widow) is, since Marvel seems to retcon everything every other year. The character has been around since the 60's. She started out as a villain - a Russian super-spy (completely with all the financial backing the former Soviet Union could provide). She had been trained to be a spy from childhood. Her main weapons have always been (first) sex appeal and manipulation. If those failed her, she had her second to none combat prowess plus an impressive array of spy gear that she kept in finger sized capsules on her bracers and in hidden compartments on her utility belt. In that respect she was very much like Batman. At some point she defected to the West.

Back in the day, when I used to read comics, she was the main squeeze of Daredevil, but she seems to float around, freelancing with various good guy Marvel agencies.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Just read an interesting article that kind of proves why we need (not want, need) more female action heroes:

http://jezebel.com/5914173/tv-makes-girls-feel-like-crap-about-themselves-but-does-wonders-for-white-boys?tag=kids-these-days

[DarkLink]

That alone is the single biggest problem that I've experienced with too many females. When someone asks me to help them with computer stuff, or help fix something, or is impressed by some physical feat I can do, it's not because guys have a natural physical advantage (usually, though I haven't met many women who can do 20+ deadhang pullups, and certainly not a 450+lb deadlift, but athletic history ties in with this).

Truth is when I help someone with computer stuff, or something similar, I just wing it. I really don't know terribly much about computers, so I just use some logic and play around with stuff until it gets fixed. Same thing with all sorts of stuff. Because guys are raised in a culture where they're expected to be able to do stuff like that. We feel like "I should know how to do this", so we just try it until we do.

Women, on the other hand, tend to feel expected to ask men to do stuff like that, and are raised under different physical expectations, so when they run into a problem they've been raised to ask for help. Instead of trying that same "I'll just wing it" like they could do, they ask a guy without realizing that he's just gonna wing it.

After years and years and years of this, you get women who can't back up a trailer asking their boyfriend to do it for them, because the guy has been doing it all these years and he's gotten practice at it, while the girl hasn't.

There's no real difference in mechanical skill, just in the mental attitude that's built up over the years on how to approach the problem. Guys think "I dunno how to do this, so I'll just play around with it until I figure it out", while girls think "wheeelp, this is where the commercial says I'm supposed to tell my boyfriend to do this".



Similarly, women are told that women's fitness is all about looking (emphasis on looking) slim and toned. They use those stupid little dumbbell thingies, walk for hours on treadmills, and generally waste time on mostly useless crap in the gym while never actually touching a weight. No wonder women can't do pullups.

Women's fitness is a misnomer. Men and women should be doing exactly the same things to get fit. I'm not gonna say that men's fitness doesn't have a lot of bull floating around as well, but at least most of it is still focused on performance. Men are told to lift more weight and look buff, women are told to try and look their prettiest.

I've met plenty of women who were physically capable, theoretically, yet didn't seem to be able to do anything physical because they'd never done something before. There was a mental block in their way. They'd never lifted heavy weights before, so they had to ask for help because they weren't mentally or physically prepared to move that dresser.


So, when I see a girl at the gym actually doing something to improve her physical fitness, I always want to go and give her a high five.

This is what a "buff" girl looks like:
http://games2009.crossfit.com/assets_c/2009/06/lauren-plumey-thumb-300x451-1020.jpg

[Necron2.0]

Just read an interesting article that kind of proves why we need (not want, need) more female action heroes:

http://jezebel.com/5914173/tv-makes-girls-feel-like-crap-about-themselves-but-does-wonders-for-white-boys?tag=kids-these-days

Actually, what I got most out of that article was the need for parenting and for shutting off the idiot box every once in awhile. With my daughter, we actively limit how much she watches TV, and direct her to actually do things. Yes, it is a pain in the butt for us, but it doesn't take a PhD to figure out someone who sits in front of the TV all through their youth is going to grow up to be a fat lazy waste of space. If such happens with my daughter, then I have failed as a parent.

Even so, despite all the coaxing and encouragement from her parents, my daughter still wants to be a princess. :rolleyes: So, I've informed her she's taking TaeKwonDo. If she insists on being a ballerina/princess, fine, but not until she's learned to kick Prince Charming's arse first.

[DarkLink]

Well, the point was that white males that sat around watching TV gained self esteem (contradicting your point), while blacks and females lost self esteem. So if you're white with a son, self esteem and tv won't be a problem.

[scadugenga]

Actually, what I got most out of that article was the need for parenting and for shutting off the idiot box every once in awhile. With my daughter, we actively limit how much she watches TV, and direct her to actually do things. Yes, it is a pain in the butt for us, but it doesn't take a PhD to figure out someone who sits in front of the TV all through their youth is going to grow up to be a fat lazy waste of space. If such happens with my daughter, then I have failed as a parent.

Even so, despite all the coaxing and encouragement from her parents, my daughter still wants to be a princess. :rolleyes: So, I've informed her she's taking TaeKwonDo. If she insists on being a ballerina/princess, fine, but not until she's learned to kick Prince Charming's arse first.



Ye gods, if you want her to kick butt...get her into something other than TKD...

Kenpo, jiu jitsu, kung fu, karate, kali/escrima--anything but that.

TKD breeds more a-holes than any other art out there.

[eldargal]

If you read my thread on feminism a few months back you might remember I said women are our own worst enemy. Well on that basis I agree with Darklink. Too many women demand to be treated like equals but expect to be able to offload duties they aren't comfortable with on the boyfriend/husband or whomever it may be.

I know next to nothing about computers but by pottering around trying to figure out problems myself instead of just getting my brothers to fix it for me. I know enough to identify hardware and take it apart, I wouldn't be comfortable putting it back together or upgrading hardware but I'm not totally reliant on other peopel for tech support.

Physically I've been fighting with my brothers and doing all the things they do since I was old enough to start bugging the hell out of them by following them around. I'm extremely strong and fit as a result, I also know how to fight which has saved and in some cases my friends from some very nasty experiences.

So while it is great for women to go to the gym and learn a martial art, they also need to learn how to fight. Not just sparring during lessons but actually have a proper fight without padded floors and a teacher to tell them to knock it off. I don't mean try to actually injure someone, but proper fights the way brothers seem to like to do to establish dominance.:rolleyes:

I can do around 30 deadhang pullups by the way, not sure about the deadlift. I'm all for looking pretty, nothing wrong with that. But there is much more than that as well, which is something a lot of women forget when it comes to fitness.

None of this is to say I'm some kind of jill of all trades, there are plenty of things I don't do (like drive) but there are very few areas where I need a mans help.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

^ Welp. I feel inadequate reading that.

[Necron2.0]

Well, the point was that white males that sat around watching TV gained self esteem (contradicting your point), while blacks and females lost self esteem. So if you're white with a son, self esteem and tv won't be a problem.


Umm ... <looks around> ... I'm assuming you were addressing that to someone other than me, because nothing in the study contradicted my point. If anything, it supported it, which is why I said what I said. The report indicated a corollary between the length of TV viewing and the change in self esteem. In either case (positive or negative) the effects of TV can be countermanded by limiting the hours spent watching TV, which is a parental prerogative.

As a complete aside (and directed at no one in particular), there have been a number of studies that have shown an excess of self esteem is FAR worse than a dearth of it. People with high self esteem tend to be more violent-minded than those with low self esteem, and are more prone to lash out against society when reality slaps them hard across the face for their lack of any actual achievements.


TKD breeds more a-holes than any other art out there.

I was thinking TKD simply because that's what's nearby (that, and because I cannot get the image of Keanu Reeves saying "I know Kung Fu!" out of my head! <*GAG*>). The other reason is because my brother took TKD. He was a full fledged a-hole before he took it, though, so I never noted a net change there. :)

[MaltonNecromancer]

There was a mental block in their way.
Socialisation is the doom of women (and it's not that good for men either). It's like trying to talk people out of their religion - it can't be done. They have to work things out for themselves, and often they don't want to.


they also need to learn how to fight. Not just sparring during lessons but actually have a proper fight without padded floors and a teacher to tell them to knock it off. I don't mean try to actually injure someone, but proper fights the way brothers seem to like to do to establish dominance.

I used to wrassle, and my lady used to do jujitsu and kubudo, so we like the occasional shootfight-style submission grappling, mostly for a laugh. I've got the weight, but she's lightning fast and has an insane tolerance for pain. It's about 50/50 win loss wise. We don't pull and thing and always fight legit. It's a lot of fun.


Ye gods, if you want her to kick butt...get her into something other than TKD...

Kenpo, jiu jitsu, kung fu, karate, kali/escrima--anything but that.

TKD breeds more a-holes than any other art out there.

TKD is great to watch, and teaches excellent fitness levels. That said, for a good grounding, I'd go for:

Muay Thai for kicks, knees, and speed.
Boxing for punches.
Krav Maga for grapples and "dirty" (read: winning a life-or-death mugging) fighting.
Shootfighting for takedowns and grapples.
Unarmed Escrima for limb destruction.
Fencing for speed and reaction time (I don't care what anyone says, there is no faster sport)
Capoeria for showing off.



If she insists on being a ballerina/princess, fine, but not until she's learned to kick Prince Charming's arse first.

This so much. I firmly believe that all girls should be made to do some form of legitimate combat sport from the moment they can. By and large, this world hates women - they need to be able to kick its ***.

[DarkLink]

I'd go for an MMA gym. MMA is about the closest you can get to training for a no holds barred fight without just going to a seedy bar and smashing a bottle over someone's head.

[Necron2.0]

Fencing for speed and reaction time (I don't care what anyone says, there is no faster sport)



Second that. I never got too much into it, but I've gotten my butt handed to me enough times to know it sucks getting old and slow. Being chunky doesn't much help either.

My wife wants to do Epee ... mainly because there are no limp-wristed rules about "right of way."


By and large, this world hates women - they need to be able to kick its ***.

Myself, I shy away from saying this world hates women, but it does seem to have more than it's fair share of overly motivated douche-bags, that's for sure.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Epee is not for the faint of heart. Great fun.

[scadugenga]

TKD is great to watch, and teaches excellent fitness levels. That said, for a good grounding, I'd go for:

Muay Thai for kicks, knees, and speed.
Boxing for punches.
Krav Maga for grapples and "dirty" (read: winning a life-or-death mugging) fighting.
Shootfighting for takedowns and grapples.
Unarmed Escrima for limb destruction.
Fencing for speed and reaction time (I don't care what anyone says, there is no faster sport)
Capoeria for showing off.





You list waayyy too many arts for someone to take. It's a recipe for disaster.

If you want down and dirty self defense without worrying about potential legal repercussions--my recommendation is either Krav Maga (I didn't list it because it is ridiculously hard to find an actual certified Krav teacher.) You won't find any deep technique, just brutal training regimen (stamina and strength) and a proven-by-history effective means to disable your attacker.

Or jiu jitsu (the original japanese form, not BJJ) for seriously effective self defense. The first choke hold I was taught in my jiu jitsu class was meant to either disable (choke out) or kill (crush the trachea). It's that serious about defense. The only word of warninga bout Jiu Jitsu--it's all about your center of gravity. If you're freakishly tall (like 6'8" me...) you will find it amazingly difficult to throw your uke. Particularly when they are on average a foot shorter than you...

Fencing is a lot of fun--been fencing since '89. However, it is by no means a combat art. It is a combat sport. There is a significant distinction. You can find salles that may teach actual combat skills--but they are very rare. (And I could go on between the relative merits of both foil and epee fencing for a good long while...but I won't detract the thread for that!)

Unless you're acrobatic and limber as hell--stay the eff away from capoeira. :)

Muay Thai training--actual real Muay Thai training-is brutal and really something you don't want to do to yourself. Most Thais who fight professionally are retired before their late 20's. Think about that for a second.

However--the most important thing regardless of what you choose to pursue--be mindful of the self defense laws in your respective areas. There are no "black belt lethal weapon" laws (a myth) but cops, and courts will frown upon you becoming the aggressor when you are attacked. And that can mean jail time if you seriously hurt someone who attacks you.

That being said--there is a martial artist's maxim that many (including myself) cling to: "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." It's all about risk and threat mitigation.

[eldargal]

Fencing is indeed great fun, but if you want to learn it like a martial art you need to find a reenactment group of fencing club that studies Talhoffer and the old 15th-16th century fencing manuals from back when it was a proper combat art. My preference is reenactment groups* to be honest, nothing keeps you fit and strong like hours of swordplay in a full plate harness each day.:rolleyes:

I would agree that the world hates women actually. Most women tend to view other women as a threat and are far more judgemental about each other than men are. Most men are rightly concerned with appearing to be egalitarian, women think because they are women they can't be misogynist so they most often are. A good percentage of men are still misogynist or at least sexis often without even realising it**. The amount of crimes again women is truly horrifying. Half all women will experience sexual harassment in their lives, 45% experience domestic abuse or stalking, 20% of girls experience sexual assault as children, one quarter of women in the UK will be raped or suffer attempted rape in their lifetime. 95% of sexual harassment and assault go unreported to the police and even when they are reported the process of investigation and arrest further brutalise and traumatise the victim. The conviction rate once an arrest is made is actually quite high, 58%, but that is still 58% of an estimated 5% of total crimes.

*Proper ones, not proto-LARPers like the SCA.
**Continung toi promote stereotypes of women as inept through jokes about female drivers and whatnot, for example.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Well... I guess that I'll have to tone up again!

[Denzark]

It is possible to treat a female like a LADY without treating her as an equal. A GENTLEMAN has no trouble doing this and it is mostly well received.

I will stand up on the tube to give a lady a seat. If I was treating them like Millie Tant from Viz, in the interests of equality, I would let them stand.

Whilst everyone likes to have their cake and eat it (Nom Nom Nom) actually the pursuit of equality is probably more damaging now - as if anywhere in (British) society you can prove you have been treated different because of sex, there is legal recourse. So being a rabid feminist is more damaging because you aren't seen as a team player, it COULD be viewed that you are just a boat rocking hag and whilst the company/workplace/team can't be overtly sexist, no one likes a trouble maker.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I keep being called a gentleman by women, I think I should be proud of this title.

"I am the very model of a modern British gentleman..."

[eldargal]

Women are equal, but we are still different, that is the key point a lot of people seem to miss. As for offering up your seat and opening doors and whatnot, that is old fashioned chivalry and although it is based on a rather archaic perception of womenhood there is nothing actually offensive about it. When it comes to it much of it just being polite and well mannered and there is nothing wrong with that, quite the contrary. It is far better than treating women simply as tools to use to gain sexual gratification or free domestic labour.

I do agree that rabid feminists are a huge problem (again see my thread on feminism) far worse in fact than most men. But people need to remember what equality is it. It isn't treating men and women like they are the same, it is about treating them equally. The distinction is important. Both men and women need to be judged equally on their merits, not their gender.


It is possible to treat a female like a LADY without treating her as an equal. A GENTLEMAN has no trouble doing this and it is mostly well received.

I will stand up on the tube to give a lady a seat. If I was treating them like Millie Tant from Viz, in the interests of equality, I would let them stand.

Whilst everyone likes to have their cake and eat it (Nom Nom Nom) actually the pursuit of equality is probably more damaging now - as if anywhere in (British) society you can prove you have been treated different because of sex, there is legal recourse. So being a rabid feminist is more damaging because you aren't seen as a team player, it COULD be viewed that you are just a boat rocking hag and whilst the company/workplace/team can't be overtly sexist, no one likes a trouble maker.

[MaltonNecromancer]

being a rabid feminist is more damaging

Dear internet,

a feminist is someone who believes that men and women should have equal rights. A woman who hates men is called a misandrist.They are different in the same way that 40K and WHFB are different; to someone who knows nothing about them, they are the same thing. However, that doesn't mean they are the same thing. Calling them the same thing only illustrates a total lack of knowledge on the part of the observer.

Now, some feminists are misandrists. Like 40K players, who also play WHFB. But not all 40K players play WHFB, and not all feminists are misandrists.

"Radical Feminism" is a distinct movement within feminism; it's like Necromunda is to 40K - set in the same universe, but with radically different rules, and quite a different setting. So you know, it's basically not 40K any more. It's totally different, but looks the same. It's also a lot less popular, another thing feminism and radical feminism have in common. Radical Feminism has, to it's detriment, a lot of misandry. This means it's pretty stupid. It also means it's not terribly feminist - as stated previously, feminists are people wh believe that men and women should be treated equally.

So, to conclude, if you believe:


women should have the same rights as men.
women should have the same work opportunities as men.
women doing the same job as a man should recieve the same pay.
women should have equal access to men.
women's bodies are their own damn property, so keep your hands to yourself unless you're asked to do otherwise.
women should, wherever possible and in all ways, expect to recieve equal treatment to men in identical situations.


congratulations, you are a feminist (notice that there's nothing on the list about hating men, taking their jobs, punching them in the crotch, etc... The sooner you start publicly calling yourself one, and associating awesome people with the word, the sooner we'll shut these damnable man-hating idiots up.

For more information, I recommend you read Caitlin Moran's "How To Be A Woman". Especially if you're male. She's funny as hell.

[eldargal]

I've gone over all that in my thread on feminism (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=19953).

[MaltonNecromancer]

Oh, I know. It just bears repeating, because it always bears repeating.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I am confused...

[Psychosplodge]

I've gone over all that in my thread on feminism (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=19953).


Oh, I know. It just bears repeating, because it always bears repeating.

I found this the other day not in the kitchen anymore (http://www.notinthekitchenanymore.com/) and this fat,ugly,or slutty (http://fatuglyorslutty.com/)

Is this really what xbox live is like?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Is this really what xbox live is like?

If my experience is anything to go by; XBL is full of 11 year olds screaming "fa99ot!" like a homophobic machinegun or raging neckbeards.

[Psychosplodge]

so pretty much yes...

[eldargal]

Best websites ever! So sad they need to exist, but still terrific.
http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/TSB_2Fast4u.jpg

http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/Fulleagle_eye.png
I know someone with the surname Tittes.

Some really scary (http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/Garry_Garry69.jpg) stuff there too though.

The linked to BBC article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18280000) is good too, not that it will stop but at least it is getting attention.

42% are women
Women aged 18+ represent a greater portion of game-playing population (37%) than boys aged 17 or younger (13%)

[Psychosplodge]

Best websites ever! So sad they need to exist, but still terrific.


Some really scary (http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/Garry_Garry69.jpg) stuff there too though.


That one is quite scary,
But you're wrong, THIS (hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com )is the best website in the world...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Hung like a chipmunk? WHAT IS THIS.

[Necron2.0]

If my experience is anything to go by; XBL is full of 11 year olds screaming "fa99ot!" like a homophobic machinegun or raging neckbeards.

Really? I didn't know 11 year olds could smoke in the UK.

;)

As for opening doors and giving up my seat for a woman, I don't do it because I'm a misogynist or a traditionalist. I do it because that's what my mom taught me to do as a self-respecting, civilized human being. When I used to interact with the high school youth at my church, and the topic got around to "those" sorts of issues, I'd tell the boys, "Look, be mindful of what you do. Actions always come with consequences. Respect yourself. Respect the girl you are with. Be aware, at every turn, that she has far more to lose than you do - be it social stigma, emotional distress, physical pain, disease or what have you. Do not treat anyone in a way that you would not want to be treated, were you to find yourself in their place."

[DarkLink]

This seems relevant, but has naughty words so I won't post the comic itself here:
http://www.rockpapercynic.com/index.php?date=2012-05-07

[eldargal]

Bah, too early in the morning, I kept trying to fill in the captcha fields.:rolleyes:

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Why are you up so early? I thought that 6am was early enough!