WTFish of Fury?

[Panxer]

Ok, I'm a long standing Tau player, but only getting really serious about it for the last year or so, and I'm really having a hard time getting my head around this fishsticks of fury bit I keep hearing about.

So, apparently (from tau of war, tau tactica, etc.) is that you get some devilfish and either load them up with FW's, Kroot, or have an XV team trailing behind, equip your DF with a multitracker so it can fire as a fast vehicle and march it up 12" (hopefully in range of something important) drop your trooper payload and pray you have enough rapid fire S5 AP5 rapid fire shots to 'do' something to something? Sounds a bit contrived.

B-b-but why?! It's a time proven tactic! Yeah, that's why I don't trust it. I am an acolyte of the church of Murphy, and Murphy says that anything that can go wrong invariably and irrevocably will go wrong. SO, This is why I doubt this, and this is why I'm guaranteeing you that this will not work (at least for me)

1. Most players are better than I am. My extensive experience of the Tau'Va isn't from being good or victorious, it's from being a glutton for punishment. I know my army more than most because I know what everything can do, what it can't, and what will crumple your battle strategy like a paper cup by turn 1. It happens all of the time. I'm at a 95% loss rate at about 200 games just in the last year.

2. Almost everyone has some form of krak or melta bomb equivalent which will tear though your armor 10 rear armor like tissue paper, which while leaving them vulnerable to return fire on the next turn, please keep in mind that a wreck counts as dangerous terrain and will also block true line of sight and l eave you vulnerable to assault should something be close enough to assault and destroy your support vehicle, OR if it explodes chances are (at toughness 3) your guys hiding under your DF's shadow and protection are going to take many wounds from the explosion (failing all because I suck at dice), and the next turn you're either going fail your pinning test, break and run away, or be smashed or eaten alive by whatever wicked this way comes.

3. Sounds nice, in actuality its kind of weak. Most lists now are mechanized, so while you're flying your sleek skimmers towards the foe (if they haven't already torn you to shreds with incoming lascannon fire, gauss, or its equivalent *wait I have a dispod save! No you don't you're half way up the board and your enemy has closed in on you and fired from within 12"...happens every time), You're in range! Hooray! Release the troops! Double Hooray! Ok, target? Landraider/Leman Russ/Wave Serpent/etc....oh. S5. Can't touch it. Nice. Oh, but wait! In your haste you gave all of your FW's pulse rifles and they can't assault what they can't shoot at that's 12" or more away because you're using fish of....whatever and thier weapons are rapid fire (not assault). I CAN FIX THIS! Give all the FW's carbines and EMP grenades and run towa....oh, wait, I can only assault 6", my target vehicle, which has moved 12" and I now can only hit it on a 6+ (if supposing I'm in assault range) and out of the FW's that actually land (statistically 1 in 6 or worse) and out of those I glance on a 4 or 5, and pen on a 6...my odd's, and the grinning tactical god Murphy are smiling as my odds for success run for a typical zero/null contingent.

If you've had success with this...out-standing for you. I'd like to hear how you repeatedly achieved and beat the Kobayashi Maru while I'm playing game after game after game, and getting shredded each time typically by turn 3 (despite list build or tactical situation) and being rendered embarrassingly combat ineffective, and politely conceding because I have other more important stuff to do that day besides question my existence and wonder why Tau are the weakest (well...sisters...) second weakest army on the board today.

[alshrive]

i must be honest i dont profress to be a tau tactical genius but from my personal experience the best tactic involving a devilfish involves propelling it at high velocity at the facial region of your opponent and hope they suffer sufficient trauma to make mistakes an inevitability and allow the tau a 'tactical' win.

i agree with you that this tactic is far from reliable and the reason is works is somewhat incomprehensible.

ALShrive

[Anggul]

Play what appears to be defensively at first. redeploy around your area and the flanks, bringing your forces to where you need them to unleash hell but not get shot down yet. Once the enemy are closer and you've taken out a couple of key targets with long-ranged fire, jolt forward and strike at the point that you need to crumple to cripple their army. I too never like to go with a plan which could just as easily work very well or go horribly wrong, so markerlights let us almost always hit, which is good. Never just fly straight at the enemy and hope for the best.

[thecactusman17]

Fish of Fury isn't an offensive technique, it is defensivr. It can also be used by several armies. It relies on the large profile if the devil fish to give the unit behind a cover save while also preventing charges against your models. There is a similar tactic to fielding dark Eldar skimmers and protecting your troops.

[DarkLink]

Everyone with vehicles uses this now. It's the smart play, with the sole purpose of protecting your guys from getting assaulted by something nasty.

[Tynskel]

yeah, sorta, the advantage of the Fish of Fury is that most armies cannot counter charge. They have to have open topped transports, or 12"+ movement capability.

The profile of most tanks isn't as wide as the Devilfish, nor do the sit high, like the Devilfish.

If your firewarriors are 12" back, and the devilfish is in front of them, you cannot move 6"+6" to reach the firewarrior squad.
This is a defensive tactic. You use it to wipe out a unit, not just shoot them a bunch.

[ksoh75]

First off.....lay off the caffine...LOL

Next....why the hell are you hurling your scoring units towards the enemy?????

Reserves.....all I have to say.....set up your gunlines and platforms...

I'm curious...what kind of list are you running beside a s pure suicide list??'

either way....maybe we get some love in the next codex in the beginning of next year.....if we don't die in December that is....

[Tauownz]

Listen to what Ksoh said, devilfish are way overcosted and FW's are the worst unit in the game. Don't take a good scoring unit and run them up hoping to double tap your opponent to death. Let your HQ's,crisis suits, kroot,hammerheads, and broadsides take care of everything. You should be reserving your devilfish or not even bringing one and have Fw's walk on from the board edge and run to objectives saving 100+ points per devilfish. You can bring a lot more guns to the table if you do that.

[Panxer]

I typically field suit heavy lists with ion/hammer heads, minimal troops (typically hiding in DF), kroot with hounds outflanking in reserves, tetras, and maybe broadsides if I feel froggy (they're typically the first to die anyway).

Basic loadout (opponent dependent) is Fire Forge XV loadout (I know, plasma is better, bleh bleh), Firewarriors with emp grenades and carbines, tetras with target arrays, hammerheads with the usual kit, and kroot with dogs lurking around on the sides.

Not necessarily 'suicidal', but definitely fragile and prone to catastrophic failure.

[ksoh75]

I typically field suit heavy lists with ion/hammer heads, minimal troops (typically hiding in DF), kroot with hounds outflanking in reserves, tetras, and maybe broadsides if I feel froggy (they're typically the first to die anyway).

Basic loadout (opponent dependent) is Fire Forge XV loadout (I know, plasma is better, bleh bleh), Firewarriors with emp grenades and carbines, tetras with target arrays, hammerheads with the usual kit, and kroot with dogs lurking around on the sides.

Not necessarily 'suicidal', but definitely fragile and prone to catastrophic failure.



You must hate yourself and like to be punished.....are you into spanking?? LOL

Serious bro....toss up your list.....you are set up for suicide all the way around...you got stuff you don't even need on loadouts you don't even need and can be used elsware....Firewarriors at max should be in fish......waiting til turn 4 or 5.....to drop in and contest or take objectives....

of course this method of play may go bye bye in a couple of months but damn it man....don't you want to at least win 1 game before 5th is over or you die???

Someone get the man a beer and some pringles.......

[slxiii]

I typically field suit heavy lists with ion/hammer heads, minimal troops (typically hiding in DF), kroot with hounds outflanking in reserves, tetras, and maybe broadsides if I feel froggy (they're typically the first to die anyway).

Basic loadout (opponent dependent) is Fire Forge XV loadout (I know, plasma is better, bleh bleh), Firewarriors with emp grenades and carbines, tetras with target arrays, hammerheads with the usual kit, and kroot with dogs lurking around on the sides.

Not necessarily 'suicidal', but definitely fragile and prone to catastrophic failure.

No offense, this seems really bad. You should post an example of your typical list for further analysis.
Few questions.
1. Does your group play with alot of Forge World stuff?
2. Why ionheads?
3. Why carbines?

You say FoF doesn't work for you, but you don't even have rapid fire weaponry to use it to full effect. Additionally, you have EMP grenades on your FW teams.... I'm sorry but it should be no wonder that they die if you throw them at vehicles. They are a (last resort) anti infantry team. Their only REAL purpose should be zipping in at the last turn to snag objectives.
Kroot are good.

Alot of your tactics/list building errors are something you should be experimenting with over 200 games. If you aren't playing anything serious, try to do some things differently than you normally do.

[Tauownz]

This is my 2000 point list to give you an idea of something you might want to try. Target priority,terrain, and deployment is critical. The only thing I reserve is my FW's.



Tau 2000 Point List
HQ:Shas’el
-Miss.Pod
-Plasma Rifle
-Target Array
-HWMT
-HWDC w/(1)shld drone

BG:Shas-vre
-Cib
-Miss.Pod
-Target Array
-HWMT

HQ:Shas’el
-Miss.Pod
-Plasma Rifle
-Target Array
-HWMT
-HWDC w/(1)shld drone

BG:Shas-vre
-Miss.Pod
-Burst Cannon
-Target Array
-HWMT

Elites: (3) XV8
-(3) Miss. Pod.
-(3) Plasma Rifle
-(3) Multi Trackers
-Bonded

Elites: (3) XV8
-(3) Miss. Pod.
-(3) Plasma Rifle
-(3) Multi Trackers
-Bonded

Elites: (3) XV8
-(3) Miss. Pod.
-(3) Plasma Rifle
-(3) Multi Trackers
-Bonded

Troops:
Kroot (2) 10 man sqd.
Kroot (1) 10 man sqd.
FW (1) 6 man team

Fast Attack:
-(2) Tetras
-(2) Targeting Array .
-(1)Target Lock

-(2) Tetras
-(2) Targeting Array
-(1)Target Lock

Heavy:
(1)Hammerhead
-Plasma Cannon
-Burst Cannons
-Multi Tracker
-Disruption Pod
-Target Lock

(1)Broadside XV88
-DC w/ (2) SD
(1)Broadside XV88
(1)Target Lock

(1)Broadside XV88
-DC w/ (2) SD
(2)Broadside XV88
(2)Target Lock

[Panxer]

You're not typing to some git. my tactics are sound. I just have really really really...bad dice rolls...consistently. Unrelentingly bad dice for the most part. That and Tau don't have any real cheese or hulk spam to throw around as a death star (and no S10 rail guns on broadsides don't count) Their mortality rate is much too high to be reliable and are usually out of service or dead by turn 2 anyhow.

Ok, I don't like plasma rifles on XV suits. they're 20pts and cannot take out vehicles (which is almost all armies for right now) so my XV loadouts with plasma are primarily reserved for HQ's and bodyguards. I don't have to justify myself for this. Fire forge is an effective mid, short, and long range load out and works well defensively as well as offensively (they're cheaper too) so..:p

My other beef with the suits is that you can't give them drones unless you want to them to lose one, fail moral, and run off of the board. It happens 80% of the time. Its disheartening, and is arguably the worst rule for any army in 40k. Take a piece of wargear to make your elites more reliable and tougher? BULL SHIKES! You lose 1 and you've got to take a morale check! Lose 2 and you have to take ANOTHER morale check, fail, and run away... My molars are grinding just thinking about it...:mad:

Broadsides are static (I know, hush... if you give them stabilizers they at least have the slow and purposeful USR), but unless they have plasma rifles, multitrackers and shield generators, you're not really doing much, or at least as much as you can with a static unit with plasma rifles and shield gens, so you can at least move and still fire the plasma.

Tetras are amazing. Thank you forgeworld for finally making something that the Tau can use to get around GHASTLY expensive pathfinder teams.

Firewarriors are to either be in cover, in reserve, or in a tank praying they don't get popped. I put EMP grenades on them because if the suits fail (they will) I can conceivably take out transports or armor should it come to it.

Kroot are to be outflanking in reserves hoping something's close enough to kroot r@pe.

Rail/Ion heads are to be taken depending on whom I'm fighting. If I don't know (or are building an 'all comers' list) then OF COURSE you're going to take rail guns! Who are you some kind of space communist? Oh, ...wait.

Rail drones are pretty much useless. Sure, cheap networked marker light, stealth fields, and 36" AP3 weapon, but may I remind you that EVERYTHING gets cover now; if you're in someone's shadow you get cover saves. Oh, and everything that can succumb to AP3 weapons are in vehicles which you can't stop with S6...oops.

I don't play skyray... yeah yeah, mobile markerlight support with free seeker missiles (which only can fire 2 per turn, can easily run out of ammo, and can easily be taken out, and can be replaced cheaper by spreading your seeker missiles around and fielding multiple tetra teams. Bbbbuh what about disruption pod saves? They will fail. Either the roll will fail, or someone will outflank/deepstrike etc, be too close to claim the save, use meltas and kill your expensive tank and all of its weapons payload. Booboobeeboo...:(


I know all of the cookie cutter lists and tactics. I know all of the 'this will work/has worked'...and honestly, they might...they really might... My experience? It doesn't.

I'm a constant and loyal victim of bad dice rolls, poor morale rolls (ala lose a drone, fail morale, and jump 18" off of the board= good bye unit), bad deployment strategies, no real defense against close combat other than (don't get in it), and all of the basic Tau weaknesses (which can't be helped without an update or a new codex). If you don't deploy second and go first, 80% chance, you've lost. Your opponent has 5th ed weaponry and rules. You are 4th ed. You are like the necron before the new book. You are a dinosaur. You might have the coolest looking wanna be robotech army in the whole shop, and you know what? Your brand new blood angels player or grey knights player will walk all up and down your veteran Shas'O blue kaboos and giggle while doing it...

If you're 'good' and you 'win' often, good for you! You deserve it! You're smart. Good for you. My statement? The Tau are antiquated and the new dex will probably be awesome (or whatever). But until then? You can have your fishsticks of whatever any way you want them...I just know what works (doesn't) for me.

[thecactusman17]

Massed S6 stops light armor dead. Stop moaning. Sounds like your issue is not enough weight of dice. Start putting out more shots and you will do much better vs everything. Plasma isn't about killing vehicles, it is about killing assault infantry. So take a few and use multi targets to direct melta shots at nearby tanks. Make sure that your shield drones aren't enough to trigger a panic check if half are destroyed.

[ksoh75]

try sleeping with your dice.....loving them.....hug them........take them out on a date......tell them how much they mean to you....


If that work, chuck them with a sling shot and buy some new ones.....