I Welcome the GW Price Increase. Bring it On! [Archive] - BoLS Lounge : Wargames, Warhammer & Miniatures Forum

Chris Copeland

05-19-2012, 05:51 AM

mate your entire first post is a big F you to anyone in the hobby under financial strain so yes YOU are the troll

You are reading me wrong, Daboarder. I am taking a "glass half full" approach to the inevitable. I am trying to do so with a touch of humor and whimsy. Here is my reasoning:

Prices on all goods are on the rise
GW products are a complete luxury so anything they charge that we all pay is (by definition) a fair price
I LOVE GW products AND it is known that prices will rise SO...
I may as well focus on the positive: they remain profitable and thus will keep producing the plastic crack I love...

If you still feel that you are being trolled after this more detailed explanation then that's on you, mate. I hope this clears things up. Cheers. Copeland

PS I am a school teacher who is wed to a social worker, so it's not like I'm rolling in dough... I'm just as financially strained as the next Joe.

PPS I also think that they've gone TOO far in Australia and will pay an economic price there because they'll be shedding customers left and right. Again, cheers... :)

Deadlift

05-19-2012, 06:01 AM

You are reading me wrong, Daboarder. I am taking a "glass half full" approach to the inevitable. I am trying to do so with a touch of humor and whimsy. Here is my reasoning:

Prices on all goods are on the rise
GW products are a complete luxury so anything they charge that we all pay is (by definition) a fair price
I LOVE GW products AND it is known that prices will rise SO...
I may as well focus on the positive: they remain profitable and thus will keep producing the plastic crack I love...

If you still feel that you are being trolled after this more detailed explanation then that's on you, mate. I hope this clears things up. Cheers. Copeland

PS I am a school teacher who is wed to a social worker, so it's not like I'm rolling in dough... I'm just as financially strained as the next Joe.

PPS I also think that they've gone TOO far in Australia and will pay an economic price there because they'll be shedding customers left and right. Again, cheers... :)

I just saw your original post as humorous and nothing to be taken seriously personally :D

Tongue in cheek etc etc etc

Wildeybeast

05-19-2012, 07:10 AM

mate your entire first post is a big F you to anyone in the hobby under financial strain so yes YOU are the troll

People under financial strain probably shouldn't be spending their money on plastic toys. If they are, it might explain why they are under financial strain. If you think spending money on luxury toys is an essential thing in times of financial hardship then you won't get any sympathy from me.

As to the OP, I really don't care if prices go up or not. If they do, I'll cut back on the amount of stuff I buy acordingly. No big deal, it's not like I don' already have more than enough stuff to play, as I'm sure is the case for the vast majority of people who whine about prices. And I certainly am not going to care about something that may not even happen, just like I'm not giving any consideration at all to any of the 6th ed rumours.

the jeske

05-19-2012, 10:36 AM

Ok while I partly agree[buying stuff when your low on cash is in deed stupid] with you . the entry point to have an army as cost goes cant be rised for ever . when someone [specialy outside of UK/US] hears that to have a viable army [other then draigo wing] he needs to spend thousands of dolars . When the same dude here that each edition the points limit for armies rise , he starts to think why bother when other stuff costs less.
It doesnt help the hobby , it doesnt help the community and in the long run it doesnt help GW too . When WFB went 2500pts starter game the number of players drops a bit at first and soon we noticed that the number of new players is close to 0 . Simply the cost of a "normal" game army was too high to buy it in one go [I know that is a bit different in western europe or US] and the time to get an army slowly was too long . No one who starts the game will wait a year and a half to get an army [specialy when most people dont play longer then that].

Am a vet . I dont care about the price of models . I can buy a whole army in one go [and offten do to resell for example] . But the cost of the hobby for a new player of WFB/w40k is getting a too high .

Wildeybeast

05-19-2012, 10:42 AM

I diasgree with needing 2500 points to play Warhammer, you cna play a prefectly good game at 1000 points. Though I agree entirely that raising price too high will be damaging to new people entering the hobby. The issue is what price point is 'too high for the good of the hobby'? The answer is when people stop buying it in significant numbers, but as GW's profits were pretty healthy it would be reasonable to suggest we haven't reached that point yet.

By the way, I thought you said in another thread that you were a customs inspector. Or have I confused that with someone else?

Morgan Darkstar

05-19-2012, 11:35 AM

I Am a vet

By the way, I thought you said in another thread that you were a customs inspector. Or have I confused that with someone else?

Busted!

Also your english is much improved!

Deadlift

05-19-2012, 11:51 AM

I am Russian customs officer .

Here we go :D

I think in this case my signature says it all.

Wildeybeast

05-19-2012, 11:54 AM

Glad you found that, I really couldn't be bothered to trawl through all his tripe on the piracy thread to find it.

Deadlift

05-19-2012, 11:55 AM

I just searched his posts, 2nd page right at the top ;)

energongoodie

05-19-2012, 12:16 PM

I just searched his posts, 2nd page right at the top ;)

http://www.yakromunda.com/images/owners/1/300px-Adeptus_Arbites.jpg

Gotthammer

05-19-2012, 12:22 PM

He could mean military veteran - aren't Russian customs paramilitary as well?

On topic I think Deadlift touched on a very good point - getting younger players involved. While many people complain about them, without new players entering the game and being able to stick with it there'll be a generation gap coming up if it's always just new players and a few aging vets (who are thinning out as real life interferes with their ability to game).
GW should probably do more to push low points games as a real alternative rather than a frankly half-assed tacked on section at the end of the main book.

wittdooley

05-19-2012, 01:37 PM

mate your entire first post is a big F you to anyone in the hobby under financial strain so yes YOU are the troll

I'm sorry. Why is that anyone's concern but your own? If you're under financial strain DONT BUY TOYS. That's pretty simple.

Hey Copeland? Maybe we should propose to the gov the ability to use WIC vouchers and food stamps on GW products too.

templarboy

05-19-2012, 01:57 PM

I am with Mr. Copeland on this one. I have a set amount I am going to spend. If the prices go up I will just get less models. I bought Warhammer in it's first edition and was a Blood Bowl fanatic for a decade. I love GW. I have for over 20 years. Their models now are the best in the business. You pay for quality folks. I don't see how his post is trolling in the slightest. If ya'll are that touchy, put your big boy pants on and get a life.

gendoikari87

05-19-2012, 02:22 PM

People under financial strain probably shouldn't be spending their money on plastic toys. If they are, it might explain why they are under financial strain. If you think spending money on luxury toys is an essential thing in times of financial hardship then you won't get any sympathy from me.

As to the OP, I really don't care if prices go up or not. If they do, I'll cut back on the amount of stuff I buy acordingly. No big deal, it's not like I don' already have more than enough stuff to play, as I'm sure is the case for the vast majority of people who whine about prices. And I certainly am not going to care about something that may not even happen, just like I'm not giving any consideration at all to any of the 6th ed rumours.

You realize there is a difference between being a little strained on finances and having to scrap pennies out of teh couch cushion to pay the rent right? some of us are responsible but can't afford GW's stuff simply because of the prices and so don't do so. it's not that we don't have ANY spending money or leisure money, it's simply that the money we do have for stuff like that isn't much and it needs to go a long way, and GW just isn't worth it anymore.

gendoikari87

05-19-2012, 02:24 PM

Deadlift

05-19-2012, 02:31 PM

You realize there is a difference between being a little strained on finances and having to scrap pennies out of teh couch cushion to pay the rent right? some of us are responsible but can't afford GW's stuff simply because of the prices and so don't do so. it's not that we don't have ANY spending money or leisure money, it's simply that the money we do have for stuff like that isn't much and it needs to go a long way, and GW just isn't worth it anymore.

For those on a strict budget like yourself, have you ever thought about starting a club where members each contribute a set amount to go towards "club armies" start it as a modeling / painting club and when you have enough to play a game, everyone gets a go.
I hope I don't come across as condescending as that's not my intention. Club bought battalions are a great way to share an army. Just a thought :).

gendoikari87

05-19-2012, 02:39 PM

For those on a strict budget like yourself, have you ever thought about starting a club where members each contribute a set amount to go towards "club armies" start it as a modeling / painting club and when you have enough to play a game, everyone gets a go.
I hope I don't come across as condescending as that's not my intention. Club bought battalions are a great way to share an army. Just a thought :).

Might work for some people but I do some really strange conversions.

Chris Copeland

05-19-2012, 03:00 PM

I'm sorry. Why is that anyone's concern but your own? If you're under financial strain DONT BUY TOYS. That's pretty simple.

Hey Copeland? Maybe we should propose to the gov the ability to use WIC vouchers and food stamps on GW products too.

Ha! Naaa... let's just keep doing this the old fashioned way: we all buy luxury items that we want when we can afford them (GW stuff, wine, movie rentals, yachts, etc) and we stop when prices rise above what we are willing to pay. :)

Edit: I never meant to imply that I am near-homeless or anything of the sort, btw. I am part of America's middle-class. At one point in this thread I was agreeing that times are tight for everyone, including me. Everyone I know is under some sort of financial strain but they still make choices about the luxuries they want to pay for in their lives. I choose to spend some of my funds on little plastic army men. My neighbor who is a nurse (same economic bracket as a school teacher) spends his money on golf. We all make choices. I wholeheartedly agree that anyone who is on the edge of financial ruin needs to NOT be buying plastic crack).

wittdooley

05-19-2012, 03:27 PM

Oh that's why I hate you, that's right, your an elitist snob.

You mean 'you're,' right?

I'm not an elitist snob. But seriously, if you can't afford it, don't buy it. They're toys. Not milk.

I'm with Copelamd here. I don't mind the price hike. I may buy less, but I have plenty of models to both play with and paint. If what I want is outside my monthy hobby budget, I get it later. It's really very simple.

My wife is a teacher. I'm a mid level project manager. Its not like I'll be buying a Benzo any time soon, but it is within my capacity to BUDGET for some hobby dollars every month.

GW products are not a right or an entitlement. That sense of entitlement is one of the biggest things wrong with the outlook in our country right now.

Wildeybeast

05-19-2012, 03:40 PM

You realize there is a difference between being a little strained on finances and having to scrap pennies out of teh couch cushion to pay the rent right? some of us are responsible but can't afford GW's stuff simply because of the prices and so don't do so. it's not that we don't have ANY spending money or leisure money, it's simply that the money we do have for stuff like that isn't much and it needs to go a long way, and GW just isn't worth it anymore.

I do indeed realise there is difference. My point is that neither situation entitles people to whine about not being able to afford plastic toy soldiers. If you can't afford it, tough. If GW raise prices to the point that it kills the hobby and puts them out of business it will be utterly stupid, but they are still entitled to do so. As has been said so many times, it's not like we are talking about bread or petrol here.

gendoikari87

05-19-2012, 04:19 PM

You mean 'you're,' right?

I'm not an elitist snob. But seriously, if you can't afford it, don't buy it. They're toys. Not milk.

I'm with Copelamd here. I don't mind the price hike. I may buy less, but I have plenty of models to both play with and paint. If what I want is outside my monthy hobby budget, I get it later. It's really very simple.

My wife is a teacher. I'm a mid level project manager. Its not like I'll be buying a Benzo any time soon, but it is within my capacity to BUDGET for some hobby dollars every month.

GW products are not a right or an entitlement. That sense of entitlement is one of the biggest things wrong with the outlook in our country right now.

it's not entitlement it's expecting people to charge fair prices, if I make a widget at X amount (after all costs are considered) that does not entitle me to sell it at 5 times X amount just because people will pay it. It entitles me to sell it at X+ some insurance because adding anything else is inflating the value. Jesus H christ people you have no idea what money is, your capitalism has ****ed up your logic and ruined your brain. You have perverted the idea of money into something it is not and have inflated the value of some things in order to steal from the rest.

The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange; a unit of account; a store of value
Note that Store does not mean I put X in and get 200X out. it means you get X out.

Chris Copeland

05-19-2012, 04:25 PM

... if I make a widget at X amount (after all costs are considered) that does not entitle me to sell it at 5 times X amount just because people will pay it. It entitles me to sell it at X+ some insurance because adding anything else is inflating the value...

Gen, I disagree with you on this one. For luxury goods the seller is entitled to to sell his wares for as much as he wants to. Any price that folks will pay is automatically a fair price. GW army men embody capitalism in it's purest form. To re-cap: as long as we keep buying they are charging the right prices... cheers...

Deadlift

05-19-2012, 04:30 PM

it's not entitlement it's expecting people to charge fair prices, if I make a widget at X amount (after all costs are considered) that does not entitle me to sell it at 5 times X amount just because people will pay it. It entitles me to sell it at X+ some insurance because adding anything else is inflating the value. Jesus H christ people you have no idea what money is, your capitalism has ****ed up your logic and ruined your brain. You have perverted the idea of money into something it is not and have inflated the value of some things in order to steal from the rest.

Note that Store does not mean I put X in and get 200X out. it means you get X out.

Calm down love

Don't get so angry, the threads you participate in are starting to fall into a familar pattern. They result in you getting angry and somewhat personal. All this in a forum about a hobby you no longer participate in.

I am not so up to speed on forum definitions but unless your willing to be labled a troll I would dial it back a bit.

Not all threads have to be so combatative.

Verilance

05-19-2012, 04:31 PM

gendoikari87

05-19-2012, 04:32 PM

Calm down love

Don't get so angry, the threads you participate in are starting to fall into a familar pattern. They result in you getting angry and somewhat personal. All this in a forum about a hobby you no longer participate in.

I am not so up to speed on forum definitions but unless your willing to be labled a troll I would dial it back a bit.

Not all threads have to be so combatative.

I'm sorry people that don't follow basic logic piss me off, and they're everywhere these days. Although I guess that's my fault for having an IQ that puts me in the top 5% intellectually.

I hope you don't drink coffee if you are that naive about how things are priced

how things ARE priced is very different from how they SHOULD be. The meaning of the medium of exchange has been so lost for so many centuries people have lost sight of so many different things connected to it, and it's the root cause of so many problems we face as a species.

Wildeybeast

05-19-2012, 04:40 PM

I'm sorry people that don't follow basic logic piss me off, and they're everywhere these days. Although I guess that's my fault for having an IQ that puts me in the top 5% intellectually.

Dude, I respect your views on the ethics of how we SHOULD price items in fair way (even if I do think they are unrealistic) and your right to defend yourself against people dissing you, but bragging about your intelligence is never a good move.

gendoikari87

05-19-2012, 04:45 PM

Dude, I respect your views on the ethics of how we SHOULD price items in fair way (even if I do think they are unrealistic) and your right to defend yourself against people dissing you, but bragging about your intelligence is never a good move.

Possibly.

as for the ethics thing, I consider it only secondarily an ethics issue, but FIRSTLY a logistical one. We've created a system where the total "money" in terms of stored value (labor) is greater than the actual amount of Labor, so we're basically breaking laws of conservation and we do this by basically stealing from those who do not have a ton of capital in the first place, that extra store of labor is held in the hands of a few and when they use it, that labor has to come from somewhere and it usually comes from the lower class so their "Value" basically inflates while the rich deflate and have a huge store of "labor"

Which if you don't understand this basic principal this all looks like magic and to use a scientific term Breaking a law of conservation.

Wildeybeast

05-19-2012, 04:48 PM

Possibly.

as for the ethics thing, I consider it only secondarily an ethics issue, but FIRSTLY a logistical one.

Definitely.

But I'm curious about it being a logistical thing. Please elaborate.

gendoikari87

05-19-2012, 04:51 PM

Definitely.

But I'm curious about it being a logistical thing. Please elaborate.

edited my original post.

gendoikari87

05-19-2012, 04:54 PM

To elaborate further imagine this.

I create a widget with X input. I CAN sell it for 300X. I take 300X and I spend it. Now for my 1 X I put into the system I get to make 300 people input X or one person input 300X. or however you want to divide it.

Now if you extrapolate this out what happens is that we're producing more than we're inputting. except you can't actually do that because lets say everyone puts in X that's 6 billion something X and we need say 10 billion X to make everything.... That input has to come from somewhere and someone has to take a cut so a lot of people end up inputting 1 x and getting out... less than one.

Wildeybeast

05-19-2012, 05:16 PM

gendoikari87

05-19-2012, 05:22 PM

Your logic is flawed. You have equated money purely with labour and assumed that the product of someone's labour is only worth the same value as that labour (1 labour = 1 money). That is clearly not the case as 1 labour unit is actually worth x money where x is whatever value someone attaches to it. There is no inherent problem with producing more than you input unless you view products/labour only in terms of what it took to produce them rather than in the value others attach to them.

You don't understand that "value" is subjective and basically imaginary, it's a universal law that you can't get more out than what you put in and that is essentially what our system requires. The reality is that the total input of humanity will equal (or be slightly more due to loss) it's output. And the way it corrects for that is by making the value of the input of some less while making the value of the input of others more generally based on accumulation of the imaginary construct of money which has been further artificially weighted.

Notice I use the word input, and not just labor.

Wildeybeast

05-19-2012, 05:37 PM

You don't understand that "value" is subjective and basically imaginary, it's a universal law that you can't get more out than what you put in and that is essentially what our system requires. And the way it does that is by making the value of the input of some less while making the value of the input of others more generally based on accumulation of the imaginary construct of money which has been further artificially weighted.

Notice I use the word input, and not just labor.

I understand perfectly well that value is abstract concept. I also understand that human society is based on abstract concepts and that you cannot simply dismiss them because they don't fit with scientific laws. Like it or not, humans attach values to objects, values which do not neccesarily correspond to the amount of input into said object. There is no logical flaw since the abstract conept requires no physical verification. Value does not to correspond to the physical reality of input into a product because it is an abstract concept. There is only a flaw if you insist that the abstract concept is meaningless because it has no basis in physical reality and do so is to fundamentally misunderstand human nature.

Verilance

05-19-2012, 05:46 PM

The thing is Games Workshop is not gouging there customers whatever we may believe here. As a publicly traded company we know what their earnings are per year and compared to some it is not excessive. The money they make from the games and models has to pay for upkeep on all of their production machines, pay for all of the staff involved in the whole process etc.

we may not like what they charge but that is a different matter

gendoikari87

05-19-2012, 05:47 PM

I understand perfectly well that value is abstract concept. I also understand that human society is based on abstract concepts and that you cannot simply dismiss them because they don't fit with scientific laws. Like it or not, humans attach values to objects, values which do not neccesarily correspond to the amount of input into said object. There is no logical flaw since the abstract conept requires no physical verification. Value does not to correspond to the physical reality of input into a product because it is an abstract concept. There is only a flaw if you insist that the abstract concept is meaningless because it has no basis in physical reality and do so is to fundamentally misunderstand human nature.

so your fine with arbitrarily attaching a meaningless algorithm to the compensation one gets from their total input that artificially makes some peoples inputs worth more and some less? instead of trying to find a way to make one persons input= their compensation or something close?

Wildeybeast

05-19-2012, 05:53 PM

gendoikari87

05-19-2012, 06:47 PM

Short answer -yes.
Long answer- there is no way of 'making' a persons compensation equivalent to their input because human greed means we always want more than we put in and will never agree on the system, so I''m comfortable with accepting the alternative.

That's no excuse for not trying, and certainly not for a system that inherently does the opposite, but thus this is where you and i will always disagree.

TheBitzBarn

05-19-2012, 10:23 PM

With all the effort wasted here we all couple Paint some models there is NO EVIDENCE of a Price Adjustment at all. This is Trolls looking to start flame wars. Again no evidence of this as I have a emails form GW Friday no mention of Price increase or no change in Price in Stock Check Paperwork.

Please do not waste time go Paint, spend time with kids, have sex, or Drink a beer anything more productive than this

the jeske

05-19-2012, 11:23 PM

Here we go :D

I think in this case my signature says it all.

am a vet at w40k . I was one of the people who started building the hobby up here in the early 90s that is what we here mean by being a vet. Dude that are actual vets here are either crazy or dont talk about it because there is nothing to talk about+its unhealithy.

I diasgree with needing 2500 points to play Warhammer, you cna play a prefectly good game at 1000 points.
I am sorry but when did you see WFB games being normal size at 1k pts . And while w40k in deed is at 1500 and not 2500pts[at least in main land europe] for most games that does not change the fact that due to the number of razorbacks and transports needed to play the costs is as high as some of the WFB armies.again draigo wing being the exeption[kind of a explains why people play it so offten too].

For those on a strict budget like yourself, have you ever thought about starting a club where members each contribute a set amount to go towards "club armies" start it as a modeling / painting club and when you have enough to play a game, everyone gets a go.
I hope I don't come across as condescending as that's not my intention. Club bought battalions are a great way to share an army. Just a thought
First clubs would have to exist , that is one thing . there are few if any in eastern europe[and I am not saying just Russia] . I also see a huge problem with the sharing aspect . If something belongs to everyone , it belongs to no one . And then it gets stolen . destroyed etc I know you western guys think different[your sociaty works that way] , but here and most of the eastern countries that is how stuff works . No man is going to give his cash that someone else [he may not even be friends with] plays. That wont happen [well maybe if they were forced , but that is kind of a extrem].

Wildeybeast

05-20-2012, 04:20 AM

am a vet at w40k . I was one of the people who started building the hobby up here in the early 90s that is what we here mean by being a vet. Dude that are actual vets here are either crazy or dont talk about it because there is nothing to talk about+its unhealithy.

Sorry, I thought you meant that you could afford plenty of stuff because you were a vetrinarian who get paid staggering amounts of money in the west. I didn't get how being a warhammer verteran led to you being able to afford plenty of stuff.

I am sorry but when did you see WFB games being normal size at 1k pts . And while w40k in deed is at 1500 and not 2500pts[at least in main land europe] for most games that does not change the fact that due to the number of razorbacks and transports needed to play the costs is as high as some of the WFB armies.again draigo wing being the exeption[kind of a explains why people play it so offten too].

Whilst 2000-2500 points are the avergae amount, there is no reason that you have to play at that amount was my point. The game works perfectly at 1000pts, especially if you are limited for time or have a limited budget and are slowly building up an army. You don't have to have a 2500 point army to start playing.

gendoikari87

05-20-2012, 06:29 AM

Sorry, I thought you meant that you could afford plenty of stuff because you were a vetrinarian who get paid staggering amounts of money in the west. I didn't get how being a warhammer verteran led to you being able to afford plenty of stuff.

Whilst 2000-2500 points are the avergae amount, there is no reason that you have to play at that amount was my point. The game works perfectly at 1000pts, especially if you are limited for time or have a limited budget and are slowly building up an army. You don't have to have a 2500 point army to start playing.

I thought 1500 was about the average pick up game, and that's still about 300-400 as an entrance barrier.Which is pretty rough.

eldargal

05-20-2012, 06:46 AM

My group plays a lot of WB at 1000, 1500, 2000 etc points and they are all equally fun. Anyone who says you can't play WFB at 1k is either lying or an idiot. Any lower than 1000 can cause issues if there isn't a tacit agreement by some players not to take certain things but when that happens anything down to 500pts can be really enjoyable.

Also, there is a lot of kits being Finecasted for WFB with a price rise so that may be what sparked this rumour. But as far as we know so far there is NOT a general price rise incoming. It is still possible they may spring one in mid June, but that is just conjecture.

Wildeybeast

05-20-2012, 06:50 AM

500 pt games are fun, but very unbalanced for some armies. Skaven and OK utterly dominate at the level. 1000 points is about the minimum to ensure relatively balanced games.

Chris Copeland

05-20-2012, 06:51 AM

This is Trolls looking to start flame wars.

Dear BitzBarn,
If anyone else had posted (again) that I was just trolling I'd probably just ignore it. I feel that I gave as reasoned and complete as response as a man could when Daboarder said it. However, I'm actually a fan of yours... the business, I mean. It's kinda weird when one takes a lick from a real world entity that they admire. So, to reiterate: the whole point of this thread was to take a "glass half full" point of view of any GW price increases that come down the pipe... whenever they come. Bear with me: prices will eventually rise. When they do I can get huffy and indignant that they did OR I can say, "Well, I'm glad my favorite producer of luxury products is doing well. Oh good: they're STILL making fantastic models for me."

Cheers. Copeland

PS You and I have something in common. We both post under real names: you under the name of your business and me under my name. There are so many benefits that flow from doing this: it keeps us honest, it keeps us polite, and rarely do we fall into the trap of being needlessly snide or rude because we're not hiding behind screen names. It feels good! Keep up the good work, Bitz! I admire your business!

eldargal

05-20-2012, 07:02 AM

Yup, that is what I meant about certain players having to forego certain units/combos to make it fair. You really need a good group for it to happen, but otherwise 1000pts is a prefectly fine start up point. You can get to that with a batallion or two (or some plastic kits) and a few characters (under £200).

500 pt games are fun, but very unbalanced for some armies. Skaven and OK utterly dominate at the level. 1000 points is about the minimum to ensure relatively balanced games.

Deadlift

05-20-2012, 07:09 AM

Yup, that is what I meant about certain players having to forego certain units/combos to make it fair. You really need a good group for it to happen, but otherwise 1000pts is a prefectly fine start up point. You can get to that with a batallion or two (or some plastic kits) and a few characters (under £200).

Use eBay or stores like wayland and it can be done for even less, as for the starter boxs Black Reach and Blood isle, both of those are fantasic ways to play games on the cheap. Split the cost with a buddy and your laughing. This hobby really isn't as inaccessible as the anti GW brigade would have us believe.

Chris Copeland

05-20-2012, 07:13 AM

Split the cost with a buddy and you're laughing. This hobby really isn't as inaccessible as the anti GW brigade would have us believe.

Hear, Hear! The main thing to do is to buy into the hobby in bite sized chunks. This is a piecemeal hobby and one builds their collection up over time... doing that also staves off the insanity that comes from staring at a huge pile of unpainted gray bits still on the sprue!

Morgan Darkstar

05-20-2012, 07:44 AM

doing that also staves off the insanity that comes from staring at a huge pile of unpainted gray bits still on the sprue!

The worrying thing is this isnt half of what i have left to paint :eek:

Chris Copeland

05-20-2012, 07:46 AM

Dear God! My eyes! My eyes! /shudder

gendoikari87

05-20-2012, 08:24 AM

Use eBay or stores like wayland and it can be done for even less, as for the starter boxs Black Reach and Blood isle, both of those are fantasic ways to play games on the cheap. Split the cost with a buddy and your laughing. This hobby really isn't as inaccessible as the anti GW brigade would have us believe.

black reach is about the only way GW is affordable without large sums of disposable cash. Period.

the jeske

05-20-2012, 08:59 AM

ok .so A you would be forced an sm dex for those , if you happen to want to use marines . and then what do you actualy use ? non assault terminators ? no . a sm cpt ? no . an sm tactical ? yes . a dread ? partly not with the weapon set up , if you want to use it the way it is in the starter set you need a pod .

orcs ? your even worse off . sure you get boyz . awesome . but for a green tide you need a lot more . if you play mecha you need wagons .

Anyone who says you can't play WFB at 1k is either lying or an idiot.
oh realy ? so how do you cut the slots off skaven and dark elf in those 1k games and/or what units are limited to 0-1 or cant be taken .

Whilst 2000-2500 points are the avergae amount, there is no reason that you have to play at that amount was my point. The game works perfectly at 1000pts, especially if you are limited for time or have a limited budget and are slowly building up an army. You don't have to have a 2500 point army to start playing.
cool . only the number of older players is always bigger then the number of new players and older players dont have and wont play 1k games because A they are unbalanced and neither the new guy will learn a lot from it [or he will learn stuff like . mefiston in 500pts games kills armies] B they dont help you with anything . it doesnt help with testing of new armies , pre tournament tests or checking if unit X/Y/Z are ok or not [because to check if they work you need a normal game not small one].
The new guy can of course just play against the other new guys . True . They will probably dont have a 2500 at start too[well most of the time] .thing is playing like that gets boring very fast[few opponents , you dont realy have options to play stuff different because your playing with everything you got] and woe to the guy who picked an army that is "balanced" in GW slang . ever tried starter nids at 1k pts or tau ? its not nice [and not just because those armies are not very new guy friendly at no matter what points range he happens to play] .And he doesnt even have to play against the last years euro champs grand master finalist for it to be unfun . and lack of fun = quiting . Now I know quiting of other players is nice for people who want to buy their models cheap , but it is not nice to community growth .

eldargal

05-20-2012, 09:06 AM

Someone has never heard of battleforces/batallions.

gendoikari87

05-20-2012, 09:08 AM

ok .so A you would be forced an sm dex for those , if you happen to want to use marines . and then what do you actualy use ? non assault terminators ? no . a sm cpt ? no . an sm tactical ? yes . a dread ? partly not with the weapon set up , if you want to use it the way it is in the starter set you need a pod .

orcs ? your even worse off . sure you get boyz . awesome . but for a green tide you need a lot more . if you play mecha you need wagons .

oh realy ? so how do you cut the slots off skaven and dark elf in those 1k games and/or what units are limited to 0-1 or cant be taken .

cool . only the number of older players is always bigger then the number of new players and older players dont have and wont play 1k games because A they are unbalanced and neither the new guy will learn a lot from it [or he will learn stuff like . mefiston in 500pts games kills armies] B they dont help you with anything . it doesnt help with testing of new armies , pre tournament tests or checking if unit X/Y/Z are ok or not [because to check if they work you need a normal game not small one].
The new guy can of course just play against the other new guys . True . They will probably dont have a 2500 at start too[well most of the time] .thing is playing like that gets boring very fast[few opponents , you dont realy have options to play stuff different because your playing with everything you got] and woe to the guy who picked an army that is "balanced" in GW slang . ever tried starter nids at 1k pts or tau ? its not nice [and not just because those armies are not very new guy friendly at no matter what points range he happens to play] .And he doesnt even have to play against the last years euro champs grand master finalist for it to be unfun . and lack of fun = quiting . Now I know quiting of other players is nice for people who want to buy their models cheap , but it is not nice to community growth .
War store you can get rhinos for 15 bucks. God bless the war store.

Deadlift

05-20-2012, 10:33 AM

I apologise in advance because here comes a rant

The Jeske
Why don't you then find another hobby that you feel is acceptable in it's cost structure and you might enjoy. Then find a forum that's related to that hobby and feel free to post as much pointless drivel there. It's obvious you have a blinkered defeatest attitude as far as GW is concerned. No matter what anyone says about being a part of the hobby on a budget your just not going to agree.

Better still why not ask some of your veterinary customs inspector work mates and see what they do for fun.

These forums have suffered in general over the last few days, weeks because of posters like you trying to drag every thread into some sort of argument rant that you can't and will never compromise on.

You sir I have come to understand are a firestarter, what ever job you decide you do next week I hope you find some satisfaction in it. I personally will not be replying or reading any of your posts anymore. Waste of time.

To the rest of BOLS I am sorry but I couldn't let this one go :(.

Chris Copeland

05-20-2012, 10:34 AM

black reach is about the only way GW is affordable without large sums of disposable cash. Period.

I disagree. Here is how one might concievably get into 40K without being particularly wealthy. Warning: this method requires patience.

Get together with a mate. Each of you buy the starter box. One of you take the Marines and the other takes the Orks. Everyone has rulebooks, measuring devices, some minis, and dice. Don't wait! Get right into playing and having fun! Some veteran players can show you the ropes.
Start painting your Marines. Don't buy anything else until they are painted. This should take about a month and allow you to put aside $30-$50 for your next purchase.
A month or so has gone by. You have some painted minis and have squirreled away some money for your next purchase. Go buy a Rhino or some more troops. Start painting them. Keep playing games at your club or LGS. Many vets will be happy to play small point games with you whilst you are building up an army. Squirrel away some more money.
In a month or two buy a Battle Force. You've been saving and painting so you are ready to buy. You already have a painted block of troops and you are playing small games with your mates. Assemble your Battle Battle force and get to playing with it (no one will mind your mixing painted and unpainted minis). Start squirreling away money for your next big purchase. You have a LOT of stuff to work on from your Battle Force so you don't need to make any purchases for a while. Decide to complete this batch of models before you buy any more...
Time goes by. You've saved up a few more coins AND you have a BUNCH of fully painted models. Buy a Land Raider (or something). Start playing with it. Start saving money towards your next big purchase whilst you paint up your LR.
Wash. Rinse. Repeat. You have a complete army. At no time did buying the army break you. You've had a good time playing games with your mates, painting, and generally enjoying our hobby... easy as pie...

Cheers! Copeland

TheBitzBarn

05-20-2012, 10:39 AM

Dear BitzBarn,
If anyone else had posted (again) that I was just trolling I'd probably just ignore it. I feel that I gave as reasoned and complete as response as a man could when Daboarder said it. However, I'm actually a fan of yours... the business, I mean. It's kinda weird when one takes a lick from a real world entity that they admire. So, to reiterate: the whole point of this thread was to take a "glass half full" point of view of any GW price increases that come down the pipe... whenever they come. Bear with me: prices will eventually rise. When they do I can get huffy and indignant that they did OR I can say, "Well, I'm glad my favorite producer of luxury products is doing well. Oh good: they're STILL making fantastic models for me."

Cheers. Copeland

PS You and I have something in common. We both post under real names: you under the name of your business and me under my name. There are so many benefits that flow from doing this: it keeps us honest, it keeps us polite, and rarely do we fall into the trap of being needlessly snide or rude because we're not hiding behind screen names. It feels good! Keep up the good work, Bitz! I admire your business!

Chris,

I was in NO WAY meaning you were trolling at all I took yours as a tongue in cheek poke at the real TROLLS. I was more referring to the Kesher and Big Red and I think Brass Scorpion as they started Threads and front page post on this.

Thank you for the compliment on the business.

BitzBarn

gendoikari87

05-20-2012, 11:09 AM

I disagree. Here is how one might concievably get into 40K without being particularly wealthy. Warning: this method requires patience.

Get together with a mate. Each of you buy the starter box. One of you take the Marines and the other takes the Orks. Everyone has rulebooks, measuring devices, some minis, and dice. Don't wait! Get right into playing and having fun! Some veteran players can show you the ropes.
Start painting your Marines. Don't buy anything else until they are painted. This should take about a month and allow you to put aside $30-$50 for your next purchase.
A month or so has gone by. You have some painted minis and have squirreled away some money for your next purchase. Go buy a Rhino or some more troops. Start painting them. Keep playing games at your club or LGS. Many vets will be happy to play small point games with you whilst you are building up an army. Squirrel away some more money.
In a month or two buy a Battle Force. You've been saving and painting so you are ready to buy. You already have a painted block of troops and you are playing small games with your mates. Assemble your Battle Battle force and get to playing with it (no one will mind your mixing painted and unpainted minis). Start squirreling away money for your next big purchase. You have a LOT of stuff to work on from your Battle Force so you don't need to make any purchases for a while. Decide to complete this batch of models before you buy any more...
Time goes by. You've saved up a few more coins AND you have a BUNCH of fully painted models. Buy a Land Raider (or something). Start playing with it. Start saving money towards your next big purchase whilst you paint up your LR.
Wash. Rinse. Repeat. You have a complete army. At no time did buying the army break you. You've had a good time playing games with your mates, painting, and generally enjoying our hobby... easy as pie...

Cheers! Copeland
that' starts with black reach, which is what I said.

on a side note, does anyone else like the ork attack copters from the black reach box better than the original ones? Terminators are about the same quality but less posable and the marines are passable.

Chris Copeland

05-20-2012, 11:15 AM

that' starts with black reach, which is what I said.

on a side note, does anyone else like the ork attack copters from the black reach box better than the original ones? Terminators are about the same quality but less posable and the marines are passable.

This method works without the starter box. You could insert "Battle Force" for "starter box" and this method still works. The point is to slowly build you army and never feel like you are breaking the bank...

Chris Copeland

05-20-2012, 11:16 AM

Chris,

I was in NO WAY meaning you were trolling at all I took yours as a tongue in cheek poke at the real TROLLS. I was more referring to the Kesher and Big Red and I think Brass Scorpion as they started Threads and front page post on this.

Thank you for the compliment on the business.

BitzBarn

Whew!!! :)

Deadlift

05-20-2012, 11:17 AM

that' starts with black reach, which is what I said.

on a side note, does anyone else like the ork attack copters from the black reach box better than the original ones? Terminators are about the same quality but less posable and the marines are passable.

Absolutely love the black reach Ork copters over the metal ones, I read rumours somewhere that the Orks are getting a box set replacement when black reach is discontinued.

gendoikari87

05-20-2012, 11:41 AM

Absolutely love the black reach Ork copters over the metal ones, I read rumours somewhere that the Orks are getting a box set replacement when black reach is discontinued.

i'll likely be glad when Black reach is gone TBH, that is if the new boxed set contains terminators and robed power armor guys. That's an easy to convert mechanicus army right there for CHEAP.

scadugenga

05-20-2012, 06:09 PM

PS it keeps us polite, and rarely do we fall into the trap of being needlessly snide or rude because we're not hiding behind screen names. It feels good! Keep up the good work, Bitz! I admire your business!

Whew...this almost brought tears of laughter to my eyes...

Not at you, Chris--you've been a fairly stand up poster...but Bitz there is an inveterate troll to the non GW forum threads--particularly the PP ones.

So much so, in fact, that I decided I'd never shop his store, regardless of the price value.

TheBitzBarn

05-20-2012, 07:52 PM

Verilance

05-20-2012, 08:19 PM

and you know what they say about opinions.

That and $1.50 can get you a cup of coffee :p

scadugenga

05-20-2012, 09:33 PM

So out of 285 post I have posted 4 times in Warmachine and basically said I do not like the game (think it is weak) and I think the minis do not look that good and they are really expensive and they have supply chain issues and that is trolling well each to there own. I am sorry if I have offended you with my opinion. I will not try to change your mind as you are a free man.

I stand behind my post on Warmachine. I do not like the game, I do not like the minis and the company has serious supply chain issues. Sorry but that is my opinion and you know what they say about opinions.

I believe you also had an issue with FOW as well.

There's nothing wrong with you not liking a certain company, or a certain game.

But when you specifically go into a forum to troll about the game you dislike--that's when you become part of the problem. Just like the only PP players who troll the 40k/WFB forums.

And yeah, even a couple posts can influence someone's perception.

Chuck777

05-20-2012, 10:52 PM

It doesn't matter which game you play - we ALL wish they were a better value for our money.

Bean

05-20-2012, 11:08 PM

I'm sorry people that don't follow basic logic piss me off, and they're everywhere these days. Although I guess that's my fault for having an IQ that puts me in the top 5% intellectually.

If you are actually in the "top 5% intellectually," how is it that you aren't yet aware that IQ measurement is not a valid mechanism for making this sort of evaluation?

You're kinda shooting yourself in the foot, here, Gendo--not, of course, that it would be the first time. =P

edit:

Also, Copeland: you have, again, amused me. Kudos, sir.

TheBitzBarn

05-20-2012, 11:09 PM

I believe you also had an issue with FOW as well.

There's nothing wrong with you not liking a certain company, or a certain game.

But when you specifically go into a forum to troll about the game you dislike--that's when you become part of the problem. Just like the only PP players who troll the 40k/WFB forums.

And yeah, even a couple posts can influence someone's perception.

Nope I checked all my post but FOW does have business model issues such as lack of source material you cannot expand the universe and you do not control the IP on the models but I have no knowledge or interest in that game

But again I know nothing about FOW other than it is a Historical WWII game with 15mm minis and made by Battlefront games

daboarder

05-21-2012, 12:44 AM

then you should realize that they have a MASSIVE amount of untapped expansion potential.

given that the game is semi-historical in the sense that it is written to allow you to play wwII in the same way the LOTR replays the books and whatnot, it's expansion possibilities range from the german maus to naval warfare. they haven't even touched the pacific theater and there have been plenty of other wars in the 20th century to use as well.

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 06:03 AM

If you are actually in the "top 5% intellectually," how is it that you aren't yet aware that IQ measurement is not a valid mechanism for making this sort of evaluation?

You're kinda shooting yourself in the foot, here, Gendo--not, of course, that it would be the first time. =P

edit:

Also, Copeland: you have, again, amused me. Kudos, sir.

I'm well aware it's not perfect but it is the best (if even the only) thing we have to go on for general intellegence measurement, so no it's not shooting one in the foot.

Defenestratus

05-21-2012, 06:57 AM

gw produces a luxury that i love. They stay in business because they are profitable. They would fold if they weren't. So, the way i see it is simple: Gw makes money and keeps selling me my luxury goods. I am not uncomfortable with this equation. If they ever raise prices too high i'll stop paying them. So, bully for gw and their making a good old fashioned profit. I appreciate that they are there to sell me my plastic crack. Bring on the price increase! Bring on the profits! Bring on my models! Cheers!

+!000000000

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 07:43 AM

wittdooley

05-21-2012, 08:01 AM

do any of you even know what corporate profits really are? judging by your responses, i would have to guess: no. Profits, corporate profits are not a good thing, they go straight into the pockets of people who simply own stock, and don't necessarily contribute anything to society, they are the lazy bums we are all supporting and buying Lamborghini's for.

You mean, of course, besides the fact that corporations that are able to turn a profit then, in turn, go about hiring more employees to help turn a larger profit, right?

Without large corporations turning profits, our unemployment rates in the US would be even higher. And no, people that own stock in large, profit turning corporations are NOT the 'lazy bums we are all supporting;' you're looking at the entirely wrong demographic. And besides, I thought you said you haven't bought any GW stuff in a long time. So are you, in fact, actually even patronizing GW and thusly "supporting" them?

Further, shareholders reaping the benefits from GWs profits could as easily be Joe Schmo down at the LGS as it could be Jervis Johnson. Your argument is questionable at best.

And honestly, as far as the "5%" thing goes... the easiest way to spot someone trying to oversell their intelligence on the internet is to look for someone trying to point it out with a number or a statement rather than in practice. Your inability to correctly use contractions would have me believe otherwise.... Just sayin.

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 08:07 AM

Further, shareholders reaping the benefits from GWs profits could as easily be Joe Schmo down at the LGS as it could be Jervis Johnson. Your argument is questionable at best.

Yes because joe schmo has SO much extra capital to invest after the bills. Quit living in lala land.

Without large corporations turning profits, our unemployment rates in the US would be even higher. And no, people that own stock in large, profit turning corporations are NOT the 'lazy bums we are all supporting;' you're looking at the entirely wrong demographic

Only because the system is set up to require such. There are these things called loans you take them out you pay them back and its done, you don't keep paying and paying... and Paying and paying and paying....

And honestly, as far as the "5%" thing goes... the easiest way to spot someone trying to oversell their intelligence on the internet is to look for someone trying to point it out with a number or a statement rather than in practice. Your inability to correctly use contractions would have me believe otherwise.... Just sayin.

Funny thing, I wasn't the first one to use the ad hominem. and I'm the one that gets attacked for it.

Also, it's fun to trounce you guys in an argument and watch the biggest bull**** excuses for arguments come back. It's all **** i've heard before and **** that holds no water unless you don't understand what your talking about. which you clearly don't.

but now you're going to come back with some other bull**** argument that is in reality indefensible, but you will refuse to recognize that it is and fail to understand why. That's called brainwashing. I've seen this a hundred times before and it's always funny.

Deadlift

05-21-2012, 08:24 AM

After looking at GWs share performance the last year or so ( before that I didn't bother ) I would say the intelligent thing would be to buy some up.

Not wanting to start a verbal war Gen but as has been said not all share holders are rolling in it. My Grandmother has shares in a couple of British companies as well as other investments that my Grandfather set up as a way to supplement her pension before he passed away. I am not sure but I don't think she has a Lamborghini in the garage, she does have a stairlift though :).

Psychosplodge

05-21-2012, 08:46 AM

You mean you're from devon and don't drive one of these?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_OORyagu8ETY/TULpFUxUeFI/AAAAAAAADrs/AApqcSWB1jA/s1600/504777290_13b99dc54d.jpg

Deadlift

05-21-2012, 08:52 AM

Lol very funny mate :) you crack me up.

As the saying goes, Devon born and bred, strong me arms and thick in me ead.

Psychosplodge

05-21-2012, 09:10 AM

Lol very funny mate :) you crack me up.

*takes a bow*

wittdooley

05-21-2012, 09:32 AM

Yes because joe schmo has SO much extra capital to invest after the bills. Quit living in lala land.

Do you understand how investing works at all? My wife and I are HARDLY rolling in extra income, but we have money put into our stock options and 401k and 403b that is drawn directly from our payechecks. It's a modest sum, but because of it we DO own stock in multiple companies and we ARE able to invest. It's true that the wealthier you are, the more OPTIONS you have when purchasing stock, but the $100 bucks I toss on my 401k every paycheck would have been enough to buy 6 shares of Facebook stock a month. Further, plenty of companies offer some sort of buy package to their employees.

Because we have the money taken out of our paychecks, we don't even miss it. We don't have to worry about budgeting for it, etc. I'm really curious as to how old you are and if you actually work in a professional sector, because these are pretty basic principles when it comes to planning for your future....

Only because the system is set up to require such. There are these things called loans you take them out you pay them back and its done, you don't keep paying and paying... and Paying and paying and paying....

Oh Jesus. You're stating now that LOANS are the way to go? Are you kidding me? Do yourself a favor and go Google the amount of student loans in the US at this point. Forget that. I'll make it easy for you. It just crested $1 trillion, which is more than Credit Card debt and Automobile loan debt in the US. Multiple lenders are getting OUT of the Student Lending industry BECAUSE the bubble has the potential to be worse than the housing bubble. Giving more loans in an environment where jobs are not readily available is ABSOLUTELY NOT the right solution.

Also, it's fun to trounce you guys in an argument and watch the biggest bull**** excuses for arguments come back. It's all **** i've heard before and **** that holds no water unless you don't understand what your talking about. which you clearly don't.

but now you're going to come back with some other bull**** argument that is in reality indefensible, but you will refuse to recognize that it is and fail to understand why. That's called brainwashing. I've seen this a hundred times before and it's always funny.

"Trounce [us] in an argument?" How do you figure. I mean, your rudimentary (at best) understanding of money lending makes me question even more than I already had. I've tried to be genial in some of the other threads, but what you're saying now is simply absurd. I only pointed out you difficulty with basic grammar conventions because of your "top 5%" claim. It just doesn't follow.

Still aghast at your suggestion that giving more loans that people will "magically" be able to repay right away is the solution. Using your words, I think you're "living in la la land."

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 11:16 AM

Do you understand how investing works at all? My wife and I are HARDLY rolling in extra income, but we have money put into our stock options and 401k and 403b that is drawn directly from our payechecks. It's a modest sum, but because of it we DO own stock in multiple companies and we ARE able to invest. It's true that the wealthier you are, the more OPTIONS you have when purchasing stock, but the $100 bucks I toss on my 401k every paycheck would have been enough to buy 6 shares of Facebook stock a month. Further, plenty of companies offer some sort of buy package to their employees.

Because we have the money taken out of our paychecks, we don't even miss it. We don't have to worry about budgeting for it, etc. I'm really curious as to how old you are and if you actually work in a professional sector, because these are pretty basic principles when it comes to planning for your future....

Oh Jesus. You're stating now that LOANS are the way to go? Are you kidding me? Do yourself a favor and go Google the amount of student loans in the US at this point. Forget that. I'll make it easy for you. It just crested $1 trillion, which is more than Credit Card debt and Automobile loan debt in the US. Multiple lenders are getting OUT of the Student Lending industry BECAUSE the bubble has the potential to be worse than the housing bubble. Giving more loans in an environment where jobs are not readily available is ABSOLUTELY NOT the right solution.

"Trounce [us] in an argument?" How do you figure. I mean, your rudimentary (at best) understanding of money lending makes me question even more than I already had. I've tried to be genial in some of the other threads, but what you're saying now is simply absurd. I only pointed out you difficulty with basic grammar conventions because of your "top 5%" claim. It just doesn't follow.

Still aghast at your suggestion that giving more loans that people will "magically" be able to repay right away is the solution. Using your words, I think you're "living in la la land."
again it doesn't matter what I say, i could go into every facet of how simply owning something doesn't entitle you to anything, you're going to come back with bull**** that just isn't correct. here's a video that will show you how you have been brainwashed. maybe that will get through, I doubt it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7G4WIa-HAk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJikG-p_nho

After this, Which won't change your mind because you're a blind fool, I think we can agree, you think i'm an idiot and I think you're an idiot and nothing will change that so I'm bowing out against the futile, take that as a win as you will, but it's not warranted.

Defenestratus

05-21-2012, 12:03 PM

Defenestratus

05-21-2012, 12:16 PM

After this, Which won't change your mind because you're a blind fool, I think we can agree, you think i'm an idiot and I think you're an idiot and nothing will change that so I'm bowing out against the futile, take that as a win as you will, but it's not warranted.

You show a demonstrable lack of basic financial and economic understand and you're the one calling HIM an idiot?

Get a grip man. Educate yourself on something other than two youtube videos and get back to us on how misguided fools we are.

(By the way, the company I work for is a private equity owned company, whose majority stake is ~55% owned by a municipality teachers' union pension fund. Not contributing to society eh?)

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 12:18 PM

You mean lazy bums like my 401k fund, my mother-in-law's pension fund and pretty much anyone else who invests as part of their long term financial planning?
Partly but they do contribute something, i'm more talking of hedgefund managers and people making 100k off of nothing more than owning somethings. but even as good as retirement funds like that are, you do not work for that money you get it simply because you "own" something. and there are other options for retirement if society would take it. So the argument that the system is good because of things like 401k's is a self fullfilling one, and that's not a good argument.

Defenestratus

05-21-2012, 12:29 PM

So the argument that the system is good because of things like 401k's is a self fullfilling one, and that's not a good argument.

Sure it is.

You just have arbitrarily chosen to apply your moral equivalence to the system.

I have several friends who are investment bankers (actually, even better, international investment bankers) and while they do "nothing but sit there" - they also create opportunities for people whose companies they invest in.

In return for that investment, they are entitled to a share of their success (or failure - and believe me, there is plenty of failure).

Its a symbiotic relationship in which sadly, one side has been demonized in popular culture.

Deadlift

05-21-2012, 12:33 PM

. But even as good as retirement funds like that are, you do not work for that money you get it simply because you "own" something. .

But at some point you had to put into that fund, to then get a return at a later date / retirement. You still worked to own the original investment.

Here in the UK we have the state pension which everyone gets at retirement age, however even that's not "free" because besides tax we pay National Insurence which partly goes towards your state pension when your at the age for retirement.

What's your alternative then to either state pensions or private ones ?

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 12:41 PM

(By the way, the company I work for is a private equity owned company, whose majority stake is ~55% owned by a municipality teachers' union pension fund. Not contributing to society eh?)

Obviously YOU'RE going to defend the system. You're understanding of the system is based on definitions the capitalists created and use, in short your right because you wrote the definitions. Which aren't based on anything so "right" is a subjective term here. Also show where i demonstrate a lack of understanding of how the financial world works. Show me.

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 12:44 PM

I have several friends who are investment bankers (actually, even better, international investment bankers) and while they do "nothing but sit there" - they also create opportunities for people whose companies they invest in.

because the system is set up that way. You seem to think without money nothing gets done which is the view of the capitalist that money creates production, which isn't true, and isn't true on a definition basis of what money is, Production, that is what creates money, not the other way around.

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 12:47 PM

You just have arbitrarily chosen to apply your moral equivalence to the system.

it's not moral equivalence it's basic laws of conservation, which you alter to favor you and your own by your own definitions.

The existance of you and your kind is circular, you exist because you exist. And you completely ignore this fact. Guess what happens without you guys, the world goes on. We worked and produced before you, and we will work and produce AFTER you.

wittdooley

05-21-2012, 12:48 PM

What's your alternative then to either state pensions or private ones ?

You must have missed that. His solution is giving everyone loans that they'll magically be able to pay back right away.

As Deadlift stated, in order to become an investor, one (typically) had to work to make that money to invest first. Sure, there are families in the US and Europe that are 'old money' and thus the date at which the money was 'earned' goes farther back than others, but that doesn't even matter.

It should be EVERYONE'S goal to have enough in the bank that you can live off the interest your investments earn.

And to insult hedge fund managers like that is absurd. That is one of the most high stress industries in the financial world, and to presume that those folks, in order to successfully manage an investment fund, are idiots its myopic and entirely ignorant. Assessing the market so that you can provide returns that will garner you more clients is not easy. And further speaking to your ignorance on the topic: if a hedge fund manager is 'only' pulling in 100k a year, they're not very good at their jobs.

But really, I'm still waiting on your responses to any of the questions the folks here, myself included, have posed to you. Or at the very least, provide some exemplars for the scenarios you suggest. I mean, please, let me know what from my previous post "isn't correct." I can assure you the anecdotal evidence regarding how my wife and I financially plan for our future is. If you'd like to believe that my statistic about student loan debt is incorrect, I'll kindly direct you to this USA Today article: Studen Loans headed for $1 Trillion (http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/college/story/2011-10-19/student-loan-debt/50818676/1)

I mean, if you really want to participate in this discussion like an adult (and this is presuming you are one--I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here), you can't simply stick your fingers in your ears and go "La la la la la" when someone presents an argument that invalidates yours.

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 12:51 PM

You must have missed that. His solution is giving everyone loans that they'll magically be able to pay back right away.

I didn't suggest using loans I was using that as an example of how the eternal payments you get by owning stock are completely retarded.

The solution is to stop thinking in terms of money creating production but the proper way (by definition) of production creating money, and the state can provide that. Why? because there are people to produce. You need nothing else, money will follow.

basically you ask the local communal manicipality to start a business and if it's deemed a worthy project then it gets funded (which by the way is akin to going to the bank asking for a loan to start the company, only here the interests of the community/humanity/fiscal fiesability are considered as opposed to strictly it's financial return), the money comes for the production of labor, not from the hoards of the rich. And you don't own the business you are put in charge of it, and can be recalled if you exploit or are ineffective (and if the project is useless it can be pulled)

wittdooley

05-21-2012, 12:58 PM

Also show where i demonstrate a lack of understanding of how the financial world works. Show me.

Are you looking for just this thread, or every thread? I mean, we could probably pen a disseration.

But, from this thread:

"...yes because every joe schmoe is rolling around with money to invest...." - Most, if not all full time, and particularly salaried, employees can and do invest.

"corporate profits....are bad" - This is more or less completely incorrect. The more profitable a company, the more stable it is. The more stable it is, the more risk they can take with adding employees. The more employees a profit-making comany makes, the lower our unemployment rate. The lower our unemployment rate, the less people we have collecting social services. The less people we have collecting social services, the more our tax money can go towards functional things. I'm sure you could extrapolate this further, but you get the idea.

That was just on one page of posts. We can surely dig more.

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 01:07 PM

Are you looking for just this thread, or every thread? I mean, we could probably pen a disseration.

But, from this thread:

"...yes because every joe schmoe is rolling around with money to invest...." - Most, if not all full time, and particularly salaried, employees can and do invest.

"corporate profits....are bad" - This is more or less completely incorrect. The more profitable a company, the more stable it is. The more stable it is, the more risk they can take with adding employees. The more employees a profit-making comany makes, the lower our unemployment rate. The lower our unemployment rate, the less people we have collecting social services. The less people we have collecting social services, the more our tax money can go towards functional things. I'm sure you could extrapolate this further, but you get the idea.

That was just on one page of posts. We can surely dig more.

Yeah because corporate profits completely don't come from exploiting the workers. which in turn creates the need for social services, and unemployment certainly isn't inherent to capitalism. Again your going about the circular existancce route of discussion.

"...yes because every joe schmoe is rolling around with money to invest...." - Most, if not all full time, and particularly salaried, employees can and do invest.

This is less and less true every day and clearly shows where you stand in the world if you think "most" people can invest enough to earn back what has been taken from them.

So uh... try again.

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 01:13 PM

Now, time for you to answer a question, what are you , as the capitalist going to do, to address exploitation of the workforce?

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 01:25 PM

Now, time for you to answer a question, what are you , as the capitalist going to do, to address exploitation of the workforce?

waiting? or are you just dumbfounded because it can't be done without massive assistance programs?

Defenestratus

05-21-2012, 01:27 PM

Yeah because corporate profits completely don't come from exploiting the workers.

Which workers are we talking about? Why don't they quit if they're being exploited? I believe that in the modern, western world, that we've outlawed the forced confiscation of a person's labor commodity. (Slavery)

If you do not feel that you, as a worker, are collecting a fair price for your labor services, then you are free to find another buyer for those labor services (Find a new employer).

which in turn creates the need for social services,

Slavery leads to the need for welfare services? This one I need explained to me.

and unemployment certainly isn't inherent to capitalism.

No. The basis of unemployment is a simple supply/demand equation. There is simply more supply of labor than there is demand for it.

Supply and Demand is something that no economic system can escape from.

This is less and less true every day and clearly shows where you stand in the world if you think "most" people can invest enough to earn back what has been taken from them.

Unfortunately you're correct in that people are investing less in their futures because of present and pressing shortcomings in a semi-global economic slowdown. However, you claim that things have been "taken" from them. I'm curious as to how things have been taken from them. Why was it taken from them? Are you talking about taxes? If so I'm right there with you. I'm completely against forced confiscation of the fruits of my labor.

Now, time for you to answer a question, what are you , as the capitalist going to do, to address exploitation of the workforce?

In a capitalistic system, an employer purchases labor from the employee. When the price of that labor is unacceptable to the employee (exploitation) then the employee terminates the agreement between the parties (handing in your resignation).

If you can refer to specific instances of "exploitation" then I can address them more accurately. Basically what I'm saying is that no employee should be forced to accept "exploitation" (which is a completely relative term btw) since nobody is presumably holding a gun to their heads to continue working for them. If so, then a crime is being committed and its not a matter of a economics but a matter of civil liberties.

Deadlift

05-21-2012, 01:46 PM

Now, time for you to answer a question, what are you , as the capitalist going to do, to address exploitation of the workforce?

That's what trade unions are for.

TheBitzBarn

05-21-2012, 01:50 PM

gendoikari is an idiot who wants to fight logic does not work with him. do not indulge the fool. There is no way to win with him he hates capitalism because he sucks at it and he lack the skills to success in the system so tear it down Like all the OCCUTARDS (Occupy RETARDS) in Wall Street and Oakland

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 02:20 PM

Which workers are we talking about? Why don't they quit if they're being exploited? I believe that in the modern, western world, that we've outlawed the forced confiscation of a person's labor commodity. (Slavery)

If you do not feel that you, as a worker, are collecting a fair price for your labor services, then you are free to find another buyer for those labor services (Find a new employer).

Slavery leads to the need for welfare services? This one I need explained to me.

No. The basis of unemployment is a simple supply/demand equation. There is simply more supply of labor than there is demand for it.

Supply and Demand is something that no economic system can escape from.

Unfortunately you're correct in that people are investing less in their futures because of present and pressing shortcomings in a semi-global economic slowdown. However, you claim that things have been "taken" from them. I'm curious as to how things have been taken from them. Why was it taken from them? Are you talking about taxes? If so I'm right there with you. I'm completely against forced confiscation of the fruits of my labor.

In a capitalistic system, an employer purchases labor from the employee. When the price of that labor is unacceptable to the employee (exploitation) then the employee terminates the agreement between the parties (handing in your resignation).

If you can refer to specific instances of "exploitation" then I can address them more accurately. Basically what I'm saying is that no employee should be forced to accept "exploitation" (which is a completely relative term btw) since nobody is presumably holding a gun to their heads to continue working for them. If so, then a crime is being committed and its not a matter of a economics but a matter of civil liberties.
I'm going to let someone smarter than I am speak for me, these two video (which I've already posted, address all these points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7G4WIa-HAk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJikG-p_nho

Specific instances of exploitation (sever exploitation not just the mild form we suffer here in america as described in the film) include the many sweatshops in operation around the world, the cochabamba water riots, Extortion by Monsanto of the many american farmers, Puss in our milk via again monsanto's pushing of their product, Love canal, Both wars for oil, corruption in our government via corporate control which reinforces all the others, ect, ect, ect, ect. the list could go on for days. I'll post back with refrences to these later tonight.

gendoikari is an idiot who wants to fight logic does not work with him. do not indulge the fool. There is no way to win with him he hates capitalism because he sucks at it and he lack the skills to success in the system so tear it down Like all the OCCUTARDS (Occupy RETARDS) in Wall Street and Oakland

wow. That explains a lot.

Defenestratus

05-21-2012, 02:30 PM

wittdooley

05-21-2012, 02:32 PM

Now, time for you to answer a question, what are you , as the capitalist going to do, to address exploitation of the workforce?

If we're still talking about the United States and the whole of western society, I suppose my response is, "What exploitation of the workforce?"

This isn't 1900s Chicago. Even our blue collar laborers are better educated than the exploited masses working the meat packing industry (as depicted by Upton Sinclair's nominal "The Jungle").

Like Defense said, there's an easy way to solve your problem if you're being exploited at the workplace: you find better employment. Sure, it's much harder during a recession where finding any job can be difficult, but jobs exist. If I lost my full time job, or needed a part time job, I could go find it easily. Would it be in the field in which I want to work? Probably not. Will I be making the amount of money that I think my time is worth? Almost certainly not. But the jobs are out there.

And heres the other thing: the marginalized working class in the United States, those in jobs you'd typically associate with Illegal workers (and coincidentally, Hispanic workers), are the majority of the ones pefectly happy to sit on assistance. The illegal workers these welfare class is so apt to complain about do jobs that the welfare class refuses to do. And that's simply forgetting about the fact that, from my experiences, these workers do exemplary work because they still come from a society that values holding that job.

And I'm sorry, the typical worker in the US IS able to invest. Is it as much as when we aren't in a recession? Perhaps not? But how much of a person's inability to invest is a product of their own doing? Despite the villianization of the mortgage industry, no one wants to accept the fact that people affected by the bubble were adversely affect in large part due to A) not understanding their loan or how an adjustable rate mortgage works, or B) Stretched themselves too thin, were house poor, and became poor-poor when their ARMs adjusted. It's easy to blame the corporations, but that's fairly typical in a society where we no longer hold any value in personal accountability.

As an anecdotal example: my wife and I were approved for about $200k in mortage for our home. We could have "afforded" that mortgage, but we would have been house poor, been living paycheck to paycheck, and would not be able to "enjoy life," as it were. Instead, we opted for a $110k mortgage at a flat rate. It allows me to particpate in this hobby. It allows my wife to buy, more or less, all the shoes she wants. We're able to go out to eat 2 or three times a month to a nice restaurant. We made that choice consciously. Others can make these types of choices too. But they don't. That isn't any corporation's fault. It's a product of their own doing.

You seem to want to create this hypothetical society where we blow up all the financial and economic institutions as they stand and reimplement this idealized form of socialism. That's great. But your lack of pragmatism here just reeks of a 19-year old just learning about these theories whilst living in the liberal-arts college bubble. I know. I was a part of that liberal arts bubble. But what you fail do to is offer any kind of explanation as to how we should implement this. Do we go and blow up all of the financial instituations like Palahniuk suggests we should in Fight Club? Because that's incredibly realistic, right?

Socialism and Communism are really, really great on paper. But both dogmas are predicated on a human population who's sole function isn't to look out for their own well being. It's predicated on a benevolent humanity that simply doesn't exist. It's quaint that you'd like to cling to this Rousseauian notion that we're all these noble savages, but even Roussau himself allows that, due to the evolution of the human and the introduction of language, politics, and community, we simply arent that noble.

The fact of the matter remains that you're operating with assumptions based on a bubble that, in reality, just doesn't exist.

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 02:33 PM

Oh dear lord almighty. A Monsanto conspiracy freak.

Joe Rogan was right when he said that the internet has engendered all kind of people who can find vindication for whatever hairbrained crazy idea out there. "You can hook up with other people who believe the same **** you do and just ride it to the apocalypse."

it's not a conspiracy, they openly admit it.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_1030.cfm

http://survivingthemiddleclasscrash.wordpress.com/2009/02/05/the-multiple-ways-monsanto-is-putting-normal-seeds-out-of-reach/

Low quality but the full documentary is on netflix.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P1CJ7IEt0c

Any farmer which has been found to have their crops cross bred (by neighboring farmers fields) with monsanto products cannot save their seed to plant next year, essetially they are forced to buy monsanto products.

Socialism and Communism are really, really great on paper. But both dogmas are predicated on a human population who's sole function isn't to look out for their own well being. It's predicated on a benevolent humanity that simply doesn't exist. It's quaint that you'd like to cling to this Rousseauian notion that we're all these noble savages, but even Roussau himself allows that, due to the evolution of the human and the introduction of language, politics, and community, we simply arent that noble.

The fact of the matter remains that you're operating with assumptions based on a bubble that, in reality, just doesn't exist.
__________________

You don't understand, socialism is the control over that greed, it's the limitation of what one can grasp, it's holding those that would exploit accountable to those that they would exploit.

Bean

05-21-2012, 03:25 PM

This thread has gotten even better. Copeland has a good sense for humor, but Gendo is hilarious. ;)

Verilance

05-21-2012, 03:32 PM

Oh dear lord almighty. A Monsanto conspiracy freak.

as much as I don't want to agree with Gendoikari87, he is right Monsanto for various reasons is very bad for the planet and for farmers,

The real blame could be US laws which allows the patenting of lifeforms but Monsanto sued a farmer because he had a crop in his field that seeds had blown in from a user nearby. They claimed he stole the seed.

I wont even go into how bad roundup ready crops are for the environment

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 03:39 PM

as much as I don't want to agree with Gendoikari87, he is right Monsanto for various reasons is very bad for the planet and for farmers,

The real blame could be US laws which allows the patenting of lifeforms but Monsanto sued a farmer because he had a crop in his field that seeds had blown in from a user nearby. They claimed he stole the seed.

I wont even go into how bad roundup ready crops are for the environment

Okay I know about roundup ready being bad for the farmers but, and i'm afraid to ask, what's so bad about them with the environment?

Chris Copeland

05-21-2012, 03:39 PM

This thread has gotten even better. Copeland has a good sense for humor, but Gendo is hilarious. ;)

Uh, Bean? May I have a word with you? Psst! Over here. /lowers voice I don't think Gendo is kidding! I think he actually believes what he is saying! No sh!t!

--------------------

Humor aside (and poorly executed debates about the merits of Marxism over Capitalism aside), I'd like to point out that this thread is about little, tiny army men. Now, I'd have to go into the attic and dig out some old college texts to be sure but I DON'T THINK THAT PLAYING WITH TOY SOLDIERS IS COVERED BY COMMUNIST DOCTRINES! I could be wrong, though!

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 03:42 PM

Uh, Bean? May I have a word with you? Psst! Over here. /lowers voice I don't think Gendo is kidding! I think he actually believes what he is saying! No sh!t!

--------------------

Humor aside (and poorly executed debates about the merits of Marxism over Capitalism aside), I'd like to point out that this thread is about little, tiny army men. Now, I'd have to go into the attic and dig out some old college texts to be sure but I DON'T THINK THAT PLAYING WITH TOY SOLDIERS IS COVERED BY COMMUNIST DOCTRINES! I could be wrong, though!

The really scary part is how people try to defend capitalism. They make the most bull**** excuses for not wanting democracy over an oligarchy. I mean for christ sake lets just install a supreme overlord if you hate democracy that much.

templarboy

05-21-2012, 03:53 PM

You guys realize you are arguing with a communist armed with the internet? Probably a teenager too. I remember when I was a teenager. I knew everything and all adults were deluded idiots. Then I went to college and got a job and paid some bills. I soon realized that I knew 1% of NOTHING. Good luck Gen. Life is just going to get more difficult for you.

Chris Copeland

05-21-2012, 03:57 PM

Templarboy, I'm not doing much debating. I'm standing here goggle-eyed over the insanity that has been spewed forth in this thread. HOLYMOTHEROFGOD! I just keep reminding myself that we are all grown men (mostly) who play with army men. It keeps me humble. :P

Deadlift

05-21-2012, 03:58 PM

I just want to read a thread that's mostly about 40k and I don't have to google every second word. I used to think I was somewhat switched on, now I feel like I have special needs :confused:

wittdooley

05-21-2012, 04:01 PM

I just want to read a thread that's mostly about 40k and I don't have to google every second word. I used to think I was somewhat switched on, now I feel like I have special needs :confused:

It's okay. You're a large man and could crush skulls. This is a real life skill. :D.

At this point, templar, I too am convinced our friend Gendo is in the age range of 17-20 and hasn't ever had a full time job. It would explain a lot. I knew SO much when I was 17, too.

Verilance

05-21-2012, 04:20 PM

Okay I know about roundup ready being bad for the farmers but, and i'm afraid to ask, what's so bad about them with the environment?

round up in itself is bad for the environment, indiscriminately using poisons which leech into to water supply is bad news.

all round up ready crops do is allow farmers to use more poisons which of course they have to buy along with the crops from Monsanto.

giving hormones to cows to increase milk supply beyond what is safe for the cow is bad for the environment yet Monsanto has been trying for years to get the Canadian government to allow the sale when we don't have a milk shortage in fact we have a surplus

etc

Agribusiness in itself, beyond Monsanto, has done more damage to the health of the planet than almost anything and usually it is at the expense of the family farm

It's okay. You're a large man and could crush skulls. This is a real life skill.

I would be afraid even to shake Deadlift's hand :D

templarboy

05-21-2012, 04:27 PM

Agribusiness in itself, beyond Monsanto, has done more damage to the health of the planet than almost anything and usually it is at the expense of the family farm

Agribusiness also feeds the teeming hordes that populate our world. Without agribusiness creating pest resistant crops, poor nations couldn't feed their people. Releasing poison into the water supply is indeed bad. However, the elimination of DDT for mosquito control has caused the deaths of millions from malaria. There are no "black and white" answers to any of these issues. Let's not pretend there are.

Verilance

05-21-2012, 05:49 PM

Agribusiness also feeds the teeming hordes that populate our world. Without agribusiness creating pest resistant crops, poor nations couldn't feed their people. Releasing poison into the water supply is indeed bad. However, the elimination of DDT for mosquito control has caused the deaths of millions from malaria. There are no "black and white" answers to any of these issues. Let's not pretend there are.

No, Agricultural Science (not Agribusiness) is what fed the world and for all those "saved" by the use of DDT millions of birds died

templarboy

05-21-2012, 06:12 PM

No, Agricultural Science (not Agribusiness) is what fed the world and for all those "saved" by the use of DDT millions of birds died
Agricultural Science funded by whom may I ask? Yeah. Agribusiness. My point was that it is NOT a black and white issue. Do you really think it is or are you just being pedantic?

Chris Copeland

05-21-2012, 07:00 PM

Little tiny army men! This thread is about little tiny army men!!! :P

Bean

05-21-2012, 07:02 PM

Little tiny army men! This thread is about little tiny army men!!! :P

Hey! I'll have you know that some of my army men are actually fairly large!

Chris Copeland

05-21-2012, 07:06 PM

No, Bean... they're not. Some of us have told you that to sustain your self-esteem... sorry...

templarboy

05-21-2012, 07:11 PM

Little tiny army men! This thread is about little tiny army men!!! :PMy bad. So...who is going to buy the massively over-priced flyers next month and feed the evil corporate fat cats at GW? I know I am!

Bean

05-21-2012, 07:19 PM

No, Bean... they're not. Some of us have told you that to sustain your self-esteem... sorry...

=(

None of my model's are as big as my friend's Reaver. I feel so inadequate...

wittdooley

05-21-2012, 07:33 PM

I could use some help gap filling and sanding my warhound. Any takers? We can drink beer while we do it! Good beer. Swear.

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 07:52 PM

Chris Copeland

05-21-2012, 08:15 PM

So communists are all teenagers with no life skills? I guess I'll have to pass that along to J. Robert Oppenheimer and Einstien.

Here's what we'll do: Genny, tell us how old you are and your level of education and we'll treat you accordingly. Genny, you seam like a kid to some of us... a child defending indefensible positions. Tell us who you really are and we'll go from there.

I'll start (to make you feel comfortable): My name is Chris and I have a BA in Anthropology. I am a veteran of the US Marine Corps. I am also a certified teacher (early childhood through 4th grade). I am also certified to teach ESL (English as a Second Language) and GT (Gifted and Talented) students. There are my bona fides as well as my real name. Genny, tell us about yourself. We can hardly wait...

Chris Copeland

05-21-2012, 08:16 PM

I could use some help gap filling and sanding my warhound. Any takers? We can drink beer while we do it! Good beer. Swear.

I'm in. I'm down. Let's do this thing!

wittdooley

05-21-2012, 08:29 PM

Here's what we'll do: Genny, tell us how old you are and your level of education and we'll treat you accordingly. Genny, you seam like a kid to some of us... a child defending indefensible positions. Tell us who you really are and we'll go from there.

I'll start (to make you feel comfortable): My name is Chris and I have a BA in Anthropology. I am a veteran of the US Marine Corps. I am also a certified teacher (early childhood through 4th grade). I am also certified to teach ESL (English as a Second Language) and GT (Gifted and Talented) students. There are my bona fides as well as my real name. Genny, tell us about yourself. We can hardly wait...

My name is Sean and I have a MA in Education, a BA in English Literature and Journalism and am working on my MA in Business Administration. I taught High School Journalism for 4-years and now work as a mid-level project manager in the finance industry.

Fire away.

Chris Copeland

05-21-2012, 08:36 PM

My name is Sean and I have a MA in Education, a BA in English Literature and Journalism and am working on my MA in Business Administration. I taught High School Journalism for 4-years and now work as a mid-level project manager in the finance industry.

Fire away.

Sean! Only one of us has to take a bullet! What are you doing?!

PS It's interesting to me that you currently work in finance... I was a Loan Officer for two sub-prime auto finance companies (Autobond & AmeriCredit) before I left the world of finance to become a teacher...

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 09:46 PM

Here's what we'll do: Genny, tell us how old you are and your level of education and we'll treat you accordingly. Genny, you seam like a kid to some of us... a child defending indefensible positions. Tell us who you really are and we'll go from there.

I'll start (to make you feel comfortable): My name is Chris and I have a BA in Anthropology. I am a veteran of the US Marine Corps. I am also a certified teacher (early childhood through 4th grade). I am also certified to teach ESL (English as a Second Language) and GT (Gifted and Talented) students. There are my bona fides as well as my real name. Genny, tell us about yourself. We can hardly wait...

24 and I hold a Physics degree. about to start teaching. and starting next summer I'll start trying to get a masters in econo physics.

templarboy

05-21-2012, 10:31 PM

Me too! Me too! My name is Rob and I am an alco...I mean I play wargames! I got my first D&D stuff in 1978. I am a motorcycle cop/traffic crash reconstructionist. I am really old. I have a 10 year old girl and a very tolerant wife. I was in college for about 8 years and cunningly managed to not get a degree in anything yet still have a 3.5 gpa. I was a "singer" for a death metal band for 10 years. All of this leaves me qualified to pass judgement on everyone and their opinions. Or not.

Gendo-I never said that being a pinko commie traitor to the Republic was a bad thing:D. It's just a thing that colours your opinions just like my rabid libertarian leanings tint mine. I certainly wouldn't want to live in the world you propose where commerce is strictly controlled. I prefer the chaotic capitalism. It breeds innovation. So...how many of the new fliers coming out next month are YOU going to buy? I am thinking 3 of the new Space Marine flier. Gotta fuel that GW profit margin ya know!

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 10:37 PM

Me too! Me too! My name is Rob and I am an alco...I mean I play wargames! I got my first D&D stuff in 1978. I am a motorcycle cop/traffic crash reconstructionist. I am really old. I have a 10 year old girl and a very tolerant wife. I was in college for about 8 years and cunningly managed to not get a degree in anything yet still have a 3.5 gpa. I was a "singer" for a death metal band for 10 years. All of this leaves me qualified to pass judgement on everyone and their opinions. Or not.
Gendo-I never said that being a pinko commie traitor to the Republic was a bad thing:D. It's just a thing that colours your opinions just like my rabid libertarian leanings tint mine. I certainly wouldn't want to live in the world you propose where commerce is strictly controlled. I prefer the chaotic capitalism. It breeds innovation. So...how many of the new fliers coming out next month are YOU going to buy? I am thinking 3 of the new Space Marine flier. Gotta fuel that GW profit margin ya know!

Depends on

A) what the new boxed set is like
B) how much they charge
C) how much being a high school teacher pays, i'm guessing not a lot, sub 30k/year.

as for innovation, there are things capitalism will never innovate, as the entrance costs do not outstrip the profits to be made therein, such as the space race, without government funded space programs america would never have gone to the moon.

wittdooley

05-21-2012, 10:58 PM

Depends on

A) what the new boxed set is like
B) how much they charge
C) how much being a high school teacher pays, i'm guessing not a lot, sub 30k/year.

as for innovation, there are things capitalism will never innovate, as the entrance costs do not outstrip the profits to be made therein, such as the space race, without government funded space programs america would never have gone to the moon.

So presumably you have your teaching degree as well? What license?

gendoikari87

05-21-2012, 11:01 PM

So presumably you have your teaching degree as well? What license?

Not a teaching degree, I chose to take the exam certification route. Here in georgia you can do that. It gives you a five year certification.

Deadlift

05-22-2012, 12:22 AM

My bad. So...who is going to buy the massively over-priced flyers next month and feed the evil corporate fat cats at GW? I know I am!

I am, maybe 2 :)

Deadlift

05-22-2012, 12:46 AM

I'm in. I'm down. Let's do this thing!

I will watch and drink the beer. Kinky

Deadlift

05-22-2012, 12:58 AM

My turn

My name is Joe, or Joseph when I have been naughty. I left school at 18 and joined the family amusements business which my grandfather started in 1955
I now run the business with my Uncle and was made a partner 12 years ago. We employ 12-15 depending on the time of year, people all of whom I count as friends as well as employees, Its a business I was born into and I wont be doing anything else. Rediscovered wargames 7 years ago and now I paint everyday.
I also play rugby and like to lift heavy stuff for fun, I do the odd charity event when it comes around. Pulling buses with kids in and the like :D
So my education is obviously lacking but I get by thank you very much, My wife is Canadian, has a masters in something or other (political science I think) and is far more intelligent than me lol, heres the thing though as for good old common sense she has non what so ever like most of the "really" intelligent people I know.

If I were American, I am quite sure I would be a redneck.

Psychosplodge

05-22-2012, 01:34 AM

We can drink beer while we do it! Good beer. Swear.

Lies!
I was informed such a thing didn't exist west of the Atlantic...:p

gendoikari87

05-22-2012, 05:53 AM

Lies!
I was informed such a thing didn't exist west of the Atlantic...:p

it exists but it has to be imported from Britan.

Psychosplodge

05-22-2012, 06:03 AM

it exists but it has to be imported from Britan.
Makes sense.

ksoh75

05-22-2012, 06:03 AM

Well I don't want to feel left out....an no I'm not trolling....I know Sean in real life and he's one of my buds....I enjoyed this thread.....very much....it kept me going yesterday while I was puking my brains out...

Names Courtney....NEVER call me that...I go by CJ or Corky..an NO not the Corky from "Life Goes On"
I'm 37 and married for 13 years. I'm not that smart but I get by. I work for the Kroger Company in Creative Services as an Advertising proofer for DSD and CSD (Direct Store Sales/Carbonated Soft Drinks) for our Delta, Atlanta, Cincinnati, Ralph's and Mid South divisions slowly transending to the Mountain divisions here in June.

I also live in Cinit....and know for a fact that Dooley isn't kidding when he says he drinks good beer!

I too have a love of plastic men....so much that I buy an army..never play it and sell it dirt cheap to newbies. Does that make me a bad person or stupid? Nope....I'm fueling the addictions to others.....just dirt cheap. Is that bad?? Egh..can be...specially since I'm back again with my 4th Tau army....:rolleyes:

Commies in Georgia.....heh....

Anyway...Copeland makes a point...this thread got WAAAAY out of hand.....we all have the rights to our opinions....shoud Copleand be lashed with wet noodles for starting this fiasco? YES! Why? It sounds like fun!

But either way...we have a common agreement. We like games....simple as that....now lets all hug and hold hands....excpet Joe.......sorry man...I'm a big guy too and even you scare me.......

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

05-22-2012, 06:11 AM

So much love. :o

Psychosplodge

05-22-2012, 06:16 AM

shoud Copleand be lashed with wet noodles for starting this fiasco? YES! Why? It sounds like fun!.

Kinky...:eek:

Deadlift

05-22-2012, 06:30 AM

Psychosplodge

05-22-2012, 06:45 AM

What's ice wine? (assuming its not simply wine with ****loads of ice in?)

Deadlift

05-22-2012, 06:52 AM

What's ice wine? (assuming its not simply wine with ****loads of ice in?)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_wine

Not nice at all :p

wittdooley

05-22-2012, 06:57 AM

I have had some very good beer from some of the micro brewery's when on Vancouver island last, some beers the north Americans do well.
Samual Adams being one of the bigger more mass produced beers is also one I have got slowly wrecked on.
However proper cider (scrumpy) not so much. Cripple **** being a fun but dangerous drink in my neck of the woods.
And what the Fu*k is ice wine all about. That stuffs minging.

My general rule of thumb is that if I can see through it, I usually wont drink it. Now, there are some exceptions, but I'm more a fan of stouts and dark ales, but who doesn't love a good hefeweizen on a balmy summer afternoon at the biergarten?

Last beer I drank was a Rogue Dead Guy Chipoltle Ale. It was a brown ale that wasn't terribly hoppy, but had a very peculiar peppery heat on the finish. I didn't hate it, but I won't be buying it again. Wasn't bad, was just a little.....odd for my palatte.

Favorite Beer of the past month is 21st Amendment Brewery's (San Francisco) Monk's Blood. A pretty hairy, 8.7% ABV monk style ale. I can't find anymore of it. That makes me sad.

Psychosplodge

05-22-2012, 07:10 AM

That's not what I'd call wine...

My beer of choice is

http://beertoday.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/moonshine.jpg

or

http://www.theauldhoose.co.uk/art_lagerboy_whatsthematter_800x.jpg

but this is also somewhat epic

http://www.jubilee-inn.co.uk/img/HSD.gif

ksoh75

05-22-2012, 07:13 AM

My general rule of thumb is that if I can see through it, I usually wont drink it. Now, there are some exceptions, but I'm more a fan of stouts and dark ales, but who doesn't love a good hefeweizen on a balmy summer afternoon at the biergarten?

Last beer I drank was a Rogue Dead Guy Chipoltle Ale. It was a brown ale that wasn't terribly hoppy, but had a very peculiar peppery heat on the finish. I didn't hate it, but I won't be buying it again. Wasn't bad, was just a little.....odd for my palatte.

Favorite Beer of the past month is 21st Amendment Brewery's (San Francisco) Monk's Blood. A pretty hairy, 8.7% ABV monk style ale. I can't find anymore of it. That makes me sad.

Sad thing is....here you are good friends with a guy that works with the beer department for a huge grocery chain....and you didn't ask......:(

Deadlift

05-22-2012, 07:14 AM

I prefer the darker stuff more in the winter months, summer time I prefer the lighter ales, Leffe blonde and hoegarden being my usual tipple. I have to be careful though as I am prone to plump (more) up if I get too carried away :)

If your interested in all things beer we have a festival coming up at a local farm, Occombe farm, Paignton, Devon. Obviously I don't expect you to come but the "menu" will give you an interesting idea of our local brewery's and the types of beers, ales and ciders they produce. Bays being the most popular.

I went last year and managed to get out before the mass punch up happened, young pups get silly.

@Psycho, Hobgoblin is a fun beer, I have one of their t-shirts. It's cool.

Psychosplodge

05-22-2012, 07:25 AM

Festival wise I do BOA these days and last year they had about 30 different wychwood brewary ales in the vip bar...

eldargal

05-22-2012, 07:25 AM

I prefer German dunkels and English porters myself. I don't mind some of the light German weissbier but I find most of the Anglosphere lagers to be very poor.

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

05-22-2012, 07:31 AM

I'm Part-Irish, and as such drink Whiskey, Cider and Guinness! Like a pro. :D

Deadlift

05-22-2012, 07:34 AM

Meantime breweries do a nice porter, quite strong and creeps up on you. But I guess you already know that one. They do a good IPA too. :)

Beers and Ales now we talking about something I understand.

eldargal

05-22-2012, 07:42 AM

I like their London Porter but I've not been able to get to the brewery to try the other porter they do. They don't bottle it, which is fine, but nor do they seem to sell kegs of the stuff.

Deadlift

05-22-2012, 08:02 AM

I like their London Porter but I've not been able to get to the brewery to try the other porter they do. They don't bottle it, which is fine, but nor do they seem to sell kegs of the stuff.

Hold the phone, a lass that talks in KEGS, I didn't even know they existed. Your either are or going to make someone a very happy fella one day.

Seriously now folks, number one favourite brew, what's yours ?

gendoikari87

05-22-2012, 08:05 AM

Hold the phone, a lass that talks in KEGS, I didn't even know they existed. Your either are or going to make someone a very happy fella one day.

Seriously now folks, number one favourite brew, what's yours ?

Hobgoblin, the original.

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

05-22-2012, 08:05 AM

I love a nice cold pint of Magners on a warm summer's day. Nothing better.

Also, I wish there were local women that liked Warhammer and KEGS, very hard to come by.

Psychosplodge

05-22-2012, 08:14 AM

pfft Magner's a teenagers drink lol

eldargal

05-22-2012, 08:15 AM

I inherited my fathers love of beer and ale and my mothers alcohol tolerance.:)

Hm, my favourite is probably Weltenburger Kloster dunkel perhaps followed by Spitfire Kentish Ale.

Deadlift

05-22-2012, 08:17 AM

Mines one called Doom Bar from next door in Cornwall.

This is the brewery's description

Doom Bar Bitter is named after an infamous sandbank at the mouth of the Camel Estuary in North Cornwall.
Where the river Camel meets the Atlantic Ocean on Cornwall’s rugged north coast, a sand bank, centuries old, known as the Doom Bar protects and calms this beautiful estuary. Sailors respect the Doom Bar knowing it to be unforgiving if met with haste or arrogance.
Doom Bar the beer embodies many characteristics which make it worthy to carry the name of this natural wonder. It’s distinctive aroma and balanced flavour set it apart from other beers taking unsuspecting first time drinkers by surprise with its moreish appeal. Doom Bar has achieved international cult status, is one of the fastest growing beer brands in the UK and the best selling cask beer in the South West of England.
Taste Notes Stuart Howe Head Brewer
“The aroma of Doom Bar combines an accomplished balance of spicy resinous hop, inviting sweet malt and delicate roasted notes. The mouth feel is a perfectly balanced and complex blend of succulent dried fruit, lightly roasted malty notes and a subtle yet assertive bitterness. The bitterness remains into the finish with dry fruity notes which implore the drinker to go back for more.”

Psychosplodge

05-22-2012, 08:19 AM

I've got a feeling I've had that one at some point...

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

05-22-2012, 08:20 AM

pfft Magner's a teenagers drink lol

It's the drink of wife-beating! Teenage wives? Hahaha!
I drink whiskey more than Magners or other ciders.

Psychosplodge

05-22-2012, 08:28 AM

Nah ask for a wife beater and you get stella lol

wittdooley

05-22-2012, 08:30 AM

Founder's Breakfast Stout for me. Such an amazing beer with all the wondeful flavors of, you guessed it, BREAKFAST.

Well, it doesn't have any egg or bacon flavor (thank goodness), but it has some chocolate, some oatmeal, and some coffee in it. The stuff looks like motor oil, but damned if I don't love it.

Pretty big fan of Great Lakes Brewery Blackout Stout as well. It's a 9.0% ABV Russian Imperial Stout. And my god is it hairy. I'm pretty sure the 3 or 4 chest hairs I do have are due to Blackout Stout.

Psychosplodge

05-22-2012, 08:33 AM

Chocolate, breakfast? :confused:

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

05-22-2012, 08:36 AM

I would swear very loudly at my mistake, but I'm at work and that would be counter-productive.
I haven't had much sleep...

Deadlift

05-22-2012, 08:39 AM

Nah ask for a wife beater and you get stella lol

Ha you beat me to it, nothing says "wife beater" like Stella Artois.

I actually don't mind Magners on a sunny afternoon. Its not bad.

Damn it now you guys made me thirsty.

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

05-22-2012, 08:41 AM

Ha you beat me to it, nothing says "wife beater" like Stella Artois.

I actually don't mind Magners on a sunny afternoon. Its not bad.

Damn it now you guys made me thirsty.

Sounds like a plan!

Deadlift

05-22-2012, 08:41 AM

Psychosplodge

05-22-2012, 08:42 AM

Yes but all the decent real ale pubs are in town, and and I live on the outskirts

doh...

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

05-22-2012, 08:45 AM

I live IN town, huzzah!

Psychosplodge

05-22-2012, 08:50 AM

I live IN town, huzzah!

:p

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

05-22-2012, 08:53 AM

That's why I really don't mind walking for 2 minutes to get to my local GW. xD

Deadlift

05-22-2012, 08:54 AM

Here's the real kick in the teeth,

My business is an arcade on a beach resort, (Goodrington) about 30 seconds away is a pub with a lovly beer garden. However as I am responsible for the running of a business which has betting machines on the premises I am by law forbidden to consume alcohol, until my working day is done. About 5 hours to go.

Psychosplodge

05-22-2012, 08:59 AM

That's practically a form of torture on a day like this...

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

05-22-2012, 09:00 AM

Here's the real kick in the teeth,

My business is an arcade on a beach resort, (Goodrington) about 30 seconds away is a pub with a lovly beer garden. However as I am responsible for the running of a business which has a betting machines on the premises I am by law forbidden to consume alcohol, until my working day is done. About 5 hours to go.

That's not even remotely fair.

ksoh75

05-22-2012, 09:28 AM

I'm a simple guy.....I enjoy Yuengling here in the states....as well as Shock Top and Leienkugel's varieties. As for small brews....and since I'm origionaly from Toledo OH, Greatl Lakes brands.....

Maumee Bay Brewing company....(They changed the name to Arrowhead) made a great Dark October Ale....OMG was the ****!!!! And I'm not a huge fan on Dark Ale's....GREAT ****!!! ahhh...I miss being home....feeling a road trip coming....

Chris Copeland

05-22-2012, 04:04 PM

ksoh75

05-22-2012, 04:34 PM

beer-wise, i am lucky: We have shiner bock (http://www.shiner.com/main.php) here! It is (in my opinion) the best american beer there is! There is an old joke about american beers. It goes like this: how is american beer like making love in a canoe? They're both fu*king close to water!" in general that is true. However, beers like shiner bock and samuel adams are the exceptions that prove the rule.

oh i soooo forgot about shiner bock!!!

wittdooley

05-22-2012, 04:37 PM

Beer-wise, I am lucky: we have Shiner Bock (http://www.shiner.com/main.php) here! It is (in my opinion) the best American beer there is! There is an old joke about American beers. It goes like this: How is American beer like making love in a canoe? They're both fu*king close to water!" In general that is TRUE. However, beers like Shiner Bock and Samuel Adams are the exceptions that prove the rule.

Oh Copeland. You really need to learn the pleasures of the American Microbrewery. That's where the good beer comes from.

If you get a chance, try Bell's Oberon this summer if you can get your hands on it. An amazing summer seasonal beer.

Deadlift

05-22-2012, 04:45 PM

Found it :)

This is the cider dreams are made of

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab3/joenortonjones/2188447212_f3191cd03f.jpg

If your on a promise, don't even attempt this stuff. It does exactly what it says on the jar

Chuck777

05-22-2012, 06:44 PM

From BoLS's Facebook page:

GW 2012 Price Increases inbound...
Get ready for $75 Land Raiders and $82 Stormravens...

Not everything is going up, but it looks like a roughly 12-15% increase for all items that go up this year. Lots of high volume items like Rhinos, Droppods, Land Raiders etc... are going up though, and almost all the finecast range.

This will be the breaking point for a lot of people.

EDIT: That means the Space Marine Librarian, whom I was shocked to see costs THIRTY DOLLARS, will not be THIRTY FOUR DOLLARS! FOR ONE MODEL! GW is ruining their future.

gendoikari87

05-22-2012, 06:55 PM

From BoLS's Facebook page:

This will be the breaking point for a lot of people.

EDIT: That means the Space Marine Librarian, whom I was shocked to see costs THIRTY DOLLARS, will not be THIRTY FOUR DOLLARS! FOR ONE MODEL! GW is ruining their future.

Rest in peace GW. Folks If this is true I suggest grabbing every codex their is and keeping a digital copy. maybe we can keep the hobby going on the pre existing material after GW folds.

Kawauso

05-22-2012, 07:53 PM

Even if that is true, I hate to break it to you, but it won't really change much.

That's in line with what we've been paying up in Canada for a while, and our dollar's been at parity with the US for a couple years now. :P

Bean

05-22-2012, 08:10 PM

Lol. I would bet money that this price increase won't put GW out of business.

Also, according to my local retailer, it's not quite that steep.

eldargal

05-22-2012, 08:12 PM

Its fairly certain the price rise is not happening, retailers got an email from GW just a day or two ago for the next week with no price rise mentioned. Yet some people claiming to be retailers claims to have gotten another email with price rise information in it.

Bean

05-22-2012, 08:21 PM

Well, for what it's worth, my retailer (and I know that he is a retailer) did tell us that he'd gotten an email from GW about price raises--but he said they were on the order of 4% for a portion of the line. I guess we'll just see.

Chuck777

05-22-2012, 09:12 PM

eldargal

05-22-2012, 09:13 PM

Yep, and sadly the situation has reversed, a lot more retailers are coming out and confirming including BitzBarn here on BoLs. Stupid, stupid GW.

Chuck777

05-22-2012, 09:19 PM

Stupid, stupid GW.

Truer words have never been uttered.

GW is going to milk its customer base until it is a desiccated heap of dry jerky flesh. Let's be honest, GW is going to continue buttressing their terrible business practices by farming out their IP into peripherals (Video Games and Books).

I wonder if GW will become like Playboy, which now makes the majority of its money off licensing its trademark name and bunny logo. Could the miniatures become an ancillary, or worse yet vestigial, part of Games Workshop?

Chris Copeland

05-22-2012, 09:20 PM

Yep, and sadly the situation has reversed, a lot more retailers are coming out and confirming including BitzBarn here on BoLs. Stupid, stupid GW.

It's only stupid if it stops a bunch of us from buying minis. However, if we carry on buying these luxury good then it's genius (for them). They are looking for that sweet spot: what ridiculously high price can they charge that doesn't run a bunch of us off? Oi vay...

eldargal

05-22-2012, 09:29 PM

daboarder

05-22-2012, 10:00 PM

unfortunately thats what they have done for the last 2 years.

The more I read about GW's financials the more and more I am convinced that Kirby does not give a **** about the companies long term health and that is a problem for both investors AND customers.

Interestingly Eldargirl where is TheBitzBarn's change in opinion about the price increase located? Or is he still saying that the prices wont change?

It's only stupid if it stops a bunch of us from buying minis. However, if we carry on buying these luxury good then it's genius (for them). They are looking for that sweet spot: what ridiculously high price can they charge that doesn't run a bunch of us off? Oi vay...

I'll put it this way, with another price increase YOUR prices reach the point where GW Aus prices were 2 years ago when they started to lose a 5TH! of their sales over 2 years, why is it intelligent for a company that already has solid data about a markets reaction to such prices to then turn around and force all their international markets into the same position?

EDIT: GOD DAMN THEM, just saw the rumors thread stupid greedy pig Kirby

Deadlift

05-23-2012, 01:09 AM

Cant say I am overly happy about this if it pans out for us in the UK too, Will it stop me spending ? No. Budget stays the same I just get less.

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

05-23-2012, 01:13 AM

I'm not keen on this increase. I hope it doesn't come to the UK.
Fortunately, I don't really plan on buying much more, I'm very happy with my Necrons and as such will only really buy them. (I have more than enough Marines!)

Also, WHAT HAPPENED TO BEER THREAD!?

Psychosplodge

05-23-2012, 01:26 AM

Somebody derailed it with talk of toy soldiers...

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

05-23-2012, 01:29 AM

Massive sacks of dicks!

Chuck777

05-23-2012, 01:49 AM

Since when did 40k become a game where we play with gold laced chunks of plastic?

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

05-23-2012, 01:55 AM

Since when did 40k become a game where we play with gold laced chunks of plastic?

Since 1975.

gendoikari87

05-23-2012, 07:01 AM

I get the reasoning behind it, but the fact is GW are facing more competition and a shrinking market in Europe due to the ongoing financial crisis. Even if people can continue to afford it they run the risk of alienating players simply by seeming irredeemably greedy. If these prices are US only it won't be quite so bad, but they really need to be doing more to boost sales beyond just finding the price the market will bear.

Of course if they are smart and notice a decline in sales ifter an annual price rise it would be nice to think they would drop prices but the worry is they would continue to raise them to mask the sales decline.

the problem comes when they realize that with a 15% increase less than that leaves, it still makes them more profitable in the long run. Saying that though, it's entirely obvious at this point that GW is going to keep raising costs beyond inflation for who knows how long and a lot of people are just going to jump ship, maybe not because THIS price increase priced them out, but because it's inevitable that one will, and probably sooner rather than later.

gendoikari87

05-23-2012, 07:04 AM

Interestingly Eldargirl where is TheBitzBarn's change in opinion about the price increase located? Or is he still saying that the prices wont change?

Dude the bitzbarn is a company that sells GW mini's OF COURSE he's going to lie about a price increase, he doesn't want people quitting before then and not buying his stuff.

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

05-23-2012, 07:09 AM

Point the conspiracy finger!

wittdooley

05-23-2012, 07:10 AM

Cant say I am overly happy about this if it pans out for us in the UK too, Will it stop me spending ? No. Budget stays the same I just get less.

Sorta where I'm sitting as well. I can't say I'm too terribly concerned about some of the price increases, as all of the higher prices models I already have (for the most part) my needed allotment of them.

I mean, I may pick up 1 more Raven and 1 more LR before the price rise, but I already have 3 Ravens (maybe I add another so both the BA and GK have 2) and like, 8 or so LRs so I don't really "need" them.

With that in mind, I think the pricepoint for the new flier is entirely reasonable at $45.....

@Gendo--- Actually, if BitzBarn wanted to push more product now while the prices are lower, he'd do the exact oppostive of what you're suggesting, much like SpikeyBitz did.

woodenronin

05-23-2012, 07:22 AM

$75 landraiders would be crazy but $45 fliers are spot on my budget.

ksoh75

05-23-2012, 07:50 AM

Thank god I play Tau.......

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

05-23-2012, 07:52 AM

Thank god I play Tau.......

Yeah, they'll never get an update. Hehehehe. :D

Deadlift

05-23-2012, 07:58 AM

GW produces a luxury that I love. They stay in business because they are profitable. They would fold if they weren't. So, the way I see it is simple: GW makes money and keeps selling me my luxury goods. I am not uncomfortable with this equation. If they ever raise prices too high I'll stop paying them. So, bully for GW and their making a good old fashioned profit. I appreciate that they are there to sell me my plastic crack. Bring on the price increase! Bring on the profits! Bring on my models! Cheers!

Can you do any other predictions, lottery results would be nice :). Best PM to me though.

Renegade

05-23-2012, 08:33 AM

To those in the US, you seem to forget that GW is a British company, with all its core in Great Britain. I suggest you forget about how much things cost in the US and focus on how much they cost in GB. Here everything has gotten expensive, and wages only are just keeping pace with inflation on average.

These rises reflect the cost of buying a product labelled (in the majority of cases) as made in the UK and I for one will support that this remains the case. I personally don't care how much *****ing comes from across the pond, as I will back any company that is a UK manufacturer and is doing well in these tough times.

Psychosplodge

05-23-2012, 08:39 AM

wages only are just keeping pace with inflation on average.

Wages are keeping pace with inflation?:confused:

What industry are you? I might need a career change...:p

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

05-23-2012, 08:39 AM

I will back any company that is a UK manufacturer and is doing well in these tough times.

Amen to that.

Renegade

05-23-2012, 08:57 AM

Wages are keeping pace with inflation?:confused:

What industry are you? I might need a career change...:p

I did say on average, though I am not sure if the figures are highest v lowest or by proportion. I suggest you google it and see what you find.

I am currently one of the 8.2% :( so my hobby is on hold.

Psychosplodge

05-23-2012, 09:15 AM

I suppose it doesnt help that actual inflation and the published inflation rate seem to be in no way related...

gendoikari87

05-23-2012, 09:18 AM

I suppose it doesnt help that actual inflation and the published inflation rate seem to be in no way related...

that's because wages are flattening out even as the price of goods continues to go up.

Renegade

05-23-2012, 09:42 AM

I suppose it doesnt help that actual inflation and the published inflation rate seem to be in no way related...

It the matter of which index you follow. The present government uses CPI over RPI, as CPI gives a more accurate reflection overall as it works in a similar way to measuring by proportion. RPI is currently trending high, but works more like highest v lowest, which is a less accurate measurement overall though preferred by nutty leftwingers.

You get the same thing if you do GDP by growth v GDP by Purchasing Power.

(Will quit boring people now)

ksoh75

05-23-2012, 09:44 AM

yeah, they'll never get an update. Hehehehe. :d

you haaaaaaad to go there didn't you???:(

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

05-23-2012, 09:56 AM

you haaaaaaad to go there didn't you???:(

I'm sorry bro. *hug*

I'm a fan of the Tau myself. :)

Psychosplodge

05-23-2012, 10:38 AM

It the matter of which index you follow. The present government uses CPI over RPI, as CPI gives a more accurate reflection overall as it works in a similar way to measuring by proportion. RPI is currently trending high, but works more like highest v lowest, which is a less accurate measurement overall though preferred by nutty leftwingers.

You get the same thing if you do GDP by growth v GDP by Purchasing Power.

(Will quit boring people now)

But they artificially manage the figures by include high end goods like tv's that are very stable in price, due to the spec changing every six months,or getting cheaper where the spec hasn't changed to offset things that have doubled in price such as gas, fuel, and bread etc...

I know they took something out recently that had gone up some stupid amount, but I can't think for the life of me now what it was

Lord Inquisitor

05-23-2012, 12:30 PM

GW produces a luxury that I love. They stay in business because they are profitable. They would fold if they weren't. So, the way I see it is simple: GW makes money and keeps selling me my luxury goods. I am not uncomfortable with this equation. If they ever raise prices too high I'll stop paying them. So, bully for GW and their making a good old fashioned profit. I appreciate that they are there to sell me my plastic crack. Bring on the price increase! Bring on the profits! Bring on my models! Cheers!

You might want to get yourself checked for brain slugs...http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-F_E4-FTdMbQ/TnvXG2Yg_QI/AAAAAAAABgA/QBIs-fuH4R4/s1600/Brainslug.jpg

gendoikari87

05-23-2012, 12:56 PM

You might want to get yourself checked for brain slugs...http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-F_E4-FTdMbQ/TnvXG2Yg_QI/AAAAAAAABgA/QBIs-fuH4R4/s1600/Brainslug.jpg

it's not brain slugs dude, these people have a weird version of Stockholm syndrome. Only replace captors with drug dealers.

Kawauso

05-23-2012, 01:27 PM

it's not brain slugs dude, these people have a weird version of Stockholm syndrome. Only replace captors with drug dealers.

I think what you're looking for is a phenomenon called escalation of commitment, not Stockholm syndrome.

And yes, anyone invested in any hobby (or anything, really) is going to be affected by that, to some degree.

Flipping out on forums about a price hike isn't going to change anything though. Buying less (i.e. keeping your budget the same) means that eventually the market price for GW goods is going to have to settle somewhere, though.

Psychosplodge

05-23-2012, 01:28 PM

You might want to get yourself checked for brain slugs...http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-F_E4-FTdMbQ/TnvXG2Yg_QI/AAAAAAAABgA/QBIs-fuH4R4/s1600/Brainslug.jpg

Totally got one, it's the laziest, *cough* i meant easiest *cough* con outfit ever...

Deadlift

05-23-2012, 01:36 PM

it's not brain slugs dude, these people have a weird version of Stockholm syndrome. Only replace captors with drug dealers.

Or I have enough disposable income that a price rise of toy soldiers is really not going to have much of an impact on my wallet, Mrs Deadlift is quite happy to drop £700 on a handbag, I buy what I like :)

I work hard for my money and nobody tells me where and when I spend it.

gendoikari87

05-23-2012, 02:05 PM

Or I have enough disposable income that a price rise of toy soldiers is really not going to have much of an impact on my wallet, Mrs Deadlift is quite happy to drop £700 on a handbag, I buy what I like :)

I work hard for my money and nobody tells me where and when I spend it.

*claps* good for you.

Deadlift

05-23-2012, 02:16 PM

*claps* good for you.

Yes it is isn't it, here's a thought. Why don't you with your vast intellect go and get a job that makes use of your god given gift. Then none of this would be an issue for you. I am sure with your earning potential you could pull in a good wage.

Lifes too short to wallow in self pity mate.

gendoikari87

05-23-2012, 02:23 PM

Yes it is isn't it, here's a thought. Why don't you with your vast intellect go and get a job that makes use of your god given gift. Then none of this would be an issue for you. I am sure with your earning potential you could pull in a good wage.

Lifes too short to wallow in self pity mate.

I am, I start teaching in august, but you still miss the point. so I get a job that makes it affordable TO ME, that doesn't mean it is for other people.

See I don't want to see the game become for elitist snobs only, simply because they've priced everyone else out. Luckily vassal is for everyone. But it's far from ideal.

Deadlift

05-23-2012, 02:35 PM

I am, I start teaching in august, but you still miss the point. so I get a job that makes it affordable TO ME, that doesn't mean it is for other people.

See I don't want to see the game become for elitist snobs only, simply because they've priced everyone else out. Luckily vassal is for everyone. But it's far from ideal.

Lol elitist snobs, maybe. At least we won't have to put up with the dirty little turnips that refuse to use soap.

Teaching is a noble career and I applaud you on your choice ( no sarcasm intended ) but please keep some of your more radical views of the world to yourself. It may upset the parents ;)

Chris Copeland

05-23-2012, 03:54 PM

... I get a job that makes it affordable TO ME, that doesn't mean it is for other people.

See I don't want to see the game become for elitist snobs only, simply because they've priced everyone else out. Luckily vassal is for everyone. But it's far from ideal.

That's the thing about LUXURIES: it doesn't matter a whit who else enjoys them or not. It's not my business and it's not really yours. The best thing you can do is vote with your wallet. I do so ALL the time! Here are some things that I simply refuse to spend my money on because the manufacturers have raised their prices too high:

high performance Italian sports cars
Dom Perignon champagne
Anything byLois Vuitton (seriously! $45K for a PURSE?)
Beef Jerky (that crap costs like $16/lb... and I live in cattle country!)
Hand crafted chain mail armor used for SCA reenactment festivals... that is CRAZY expensive!
Corona beer... $9 for a six-pack? I don't think so! However, I can buy Shiner Bock for $7/six pack around here (I'm not far from the Spoetzel Brewery in Shiner, Texas).

I could go on but I think I've made my point. Genny, I highly encourage you to vote with your wallet: quit playing GW games. Makes those b@stards pay for raising their prices and engaging in capitalism!

Bean

05-23-2012, 03:59 PM

It's true: trying to set up a boycott of a luxury manufacturer because of high prices is pretty silly: if the price of a luxury item is too high, it will create its own "boycott."

Either Gendo is right, in which case he doesn't need to ask us to boycott--we will on our own--or he's wrong, in which case he shouldn't be calling for a boycott. There is literally only one way of telling whether he is right, and that is to see whether people keep buying the product at the new price or not. Either way, calling for a boycott is entirely pointless.

Wait: this isn't the boycott thread.

Whoops.

Oh well.

Chuck777

05-23-2012, 04:29 PM

Vote with your wallet and DO NOT BUY ANYTHING - not a book, box, blister OR bit!

If GW bankrupts itself, then it will be purchased by an interested corporation. 40k will never die but it may change form.

Chris Copeland

05-23-2012, 04:31 PM

Wait: this isn't the boycott thread. Whoops. Oh well.

Geez, Bean! Will you PLEASE pay attention to which "GW Prices Are Too High" thread you are in! The next thing you know you'll be mixing up your "Gray Knights are Overpowered" threads! Sheesh! Copeland

PS Thanks for the list advice over on the Gaming Garage (http://www.thegaminggarage.co/forum/index.php) forum. TGG (http://www.thegaminggarage.co/forum/index.php) is still a small forum and your input there has been well received!

Bean

05-23-2012, 04:35 PM

Geez, Bean! Will you PLEASE pay attention to which "GW Prices Are Too High" thread you are in! The next thing you know you'll be mixing up your "Gray Knights are Overpowered" threads! Sheesh! Copeland

PS Thanks for the list advice over on the Gaming Garage (http://www.thegaminggarage.co/forum/index.php) forum. TGG (http://www.thegaminggarage.co/forum/index.php) is still a small forum and your input there has been well received!

Sorry, sorry. At some point, Gendo's posts just began to run together for me.

Also, no problem! I like small forums. =)

gendoikari87

05-23-2012, 05:54 PM

Lol elitist snobs, maybe. At least we won't have to put up with the dirty little turnips that refuse to use soap.

Teaching is a noble career and I applaud you on your choice ( no sarcasm intended ) but please keep some of your more radical views of the world to yourself. It may upset the parents ;)

It's teaching physics so I wouldn't really have the chance anyway. I might go on about string theory however, and that's a bit more controversial and unproven.

Gyar

05-23-2012, 06:27 PM

I am fine with price increases, I mean it's going to happen. Everything else in the world is going up. I enjoy the game, I buy the products. If something I want that is pricy, I save for it. Now if things get redonkoulsly expensive, like $75 for a tact squad, I would probably get upset.

Though the way I see it, if you don't want to pay for it, why are you complaining? GW isn't making you buy their products, and as many of you pointed out in other threads, there are lots of other game systems that would love to have your new loyalty.

wittdooley

05-23-2012, 08:20 PM

I could go on but I think I've made my point. Genny, I highly encourage you to vote with your wallet: quit playing GW games. Makes those b@stards pay for raising their prices and engaging in capitalism!

Here's the thing. I already think he's told us he isn't even playing the game at this point.

As for Gendo teaching: I actually hope it isn't true. As a former teacher, with a spouse that teaches, I wouldn't want you anywhere near a school. Your irrationality and inability to listen to ANYONE else makes you a horrible candidate for being an educator, particularly with your....and I'll be polite here....questionable viewpoints regarding capitalism and morality.

And please, don't get me started on the fact that you're being enabled by a provision that allows you to teach without having the proper training. It's akin to people becoming ministers online.

Chris Copeland

05-23-2012, 09:46 PM

I think that the only thing left to do is to declare victory and move on (at least from Gendo). It seems to me that there are two possibilities at this point:

Gendo is a fantastic troll
Gendo actually believes the nonsense he's been spewing and is therefore incapable of rationally discussing the economics of expensive toy soldiery.

Either option leads nowhere. I tend to lean towards the former explanation rather than the latter. I bet he's just been trolling us. If so, "Bravo, sir. Bravo." That was some of the finest work I've seen. If it's the latter explanation then I suggest that a couple of years in the real world will knock some sense into him.

So, I shan't be responding to Gendo's treatises in this (or threads like this) anymore. I am willing to discuss it with others though, so it's not like the thread needs to be closed. To Wittdooley, Deadlift, Bean, and so many others I must say this: you gentlemen displayed great patience with this young man and you all bring credit to this hobby! Cheers!

PS If any of you are ever down San Antonio way look me up and we'll get in a game. G'night!

Chris Copeland

05-23-2012, 09:57 PM

A friend of mine from TGG (http://www.thegaminggarage.co/forum/index.php) (a small forum in my area) had the BEST line ever! He said, "Due to the GW price increase, I will be purchasing more GW models. The price if finally catching up to the quality of the model and the enjoyment of the game. Just as I said I will play 6th no matter what, I will now be purchasing more finely sculpted miniatures for the hobbies I love!"

gendoikari87

05-23-2012, 10:16 PM

gendoikari87

05-23-2012, 10:17 PM

Here's the thing. I already think he's told us he isn't even playing the game at this point.

As for Gendo teaching: I actually hope it isn't true. As a former teacher, with a spouse that teaches, I wouldn't want you anywhere near a school. Your irrationality and inability to listen to ANYONE else makes you a horrible candidate for being an educator, particularly with your....and I'll be polite here....questionable viewpoints regarding capitalism and morality.

And please, don't get me started on the fact that you're being enabled by a provision that allows you to teach without having the proper training. It's akin to people becoming ministers online.

Yeah see, when your an idiot someone elses logic and proof seem like irrationality, every thing you've said here I can throw back in your face, and I do. good night.

But I will leave you with this: there are two kinds of people in this world, those that think only of their own selves and surroundings and those that can look beyond to a bigger picture. I don't know if you're an idiot or not but I do know you are, unquestionably, the former.

wittdooley

05-23-2012, 10:48 PM

Yeah see, when your an idiot someone elses logic and proof seem like irrationality, every thing you've said here I can throw back in your face, and I do. good night.

But I will leave you with this: there are two kinds of people in this world, those that think only of their own selves and surroundings and those that can look beyond to a bigger picture. I don't know if you're an idiot or not but I do know you are, unquestionably, the former.

Unquestionably, eh? I see you're still having trouble with your contractions. That rarefied air up there in the top 5% must be messing with your grammatical prowess.

You don't make cogent points. That's what this all boils down to. When you get backed into a corner, you claim that "GW should lower their prices because it's the 'right' thing to do." When we disagree that there is no 'right' price (in this instance, right means moral or ethical--it would be unethical and immoral to charge $50 for a gallon of milk to a low-income family) because LUXURY items that have no bearing on a basic standard of living and right to life, you attempt to change the subject.

And I firmly stand by my statement that it horrifies me that someone is going to let you in a classroom. I hope you espouse some of your communist nonsense, a few parents complain, and you're booted on your ***.

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

05-24-2012, 01:10 AM

PS If any of you are ever down San Antonio way look me up and we'll get in a game. G'night!

Sounds like a party!

the jeske

05-24-2012, 06:05 AM

because LUXURY items that have no bearing on a basic standard of living and right to life, you attempt to change the subjec
First of all I wouldnt agree with you on the basic standard of living thing . For people in the WFB/w40k community [and only those are interested in the models price] the price of a model is a "right to life" thing . IF you dont have models you cant play , you dont play/dont have models your effectivly dead for the community.
See I remember back in the 80 , contract workers from western europe and US in Iraq said something simiular to us [eastern block engineers and workers] . Alkohol is a luxury product , you dont need it to work and If you realy want it you can always buy it [singing up the papers that your an editced alkoholic . which had is bad sides , because the bribes you had to pay were getting higher if you were listed] . And people did ignore it for some time . It was till a bottle of vodka started costing 1/3 of a days salary[and back then the iraq dinar was worth more then the US dolar . and eastern workers had salaries worth around 40$ back home] and suddenly all the drivers stoped working [you have no idea what happens if a cement mixer stops working or worse when all in the region do the same] .
I dont know If GW policy makes WFB/w40k die in some region , then I kind of see it as bad . GW wants to have higher price in their shops ? cool . GW wants to force LFGS to sell stuff at the same price as GW shops [which by the way dont exist in a quite large part of the world by the way] . well not cool , but I understand . Making it unable for me to buy models from who ever I want [unless its FW , which again doesnt make sense . if they are puting an embargo of no selling FW models should not be aviable in AuS at all] , is both breaking the law of some countries and making the communities [which more offten then not started the whole w40k/WFB thing for GW , did promos for free etc] suffer , is border line criminal . But then again it is UK , a country harboring so many criminals must be special .