GW Annual Price Increase

[Brass Scorpion]

Where's the news or rumors about this year's annual GW "price rise"? June 1 is less than three weeks away. After the past couple years, this ought to be good, by which I mean really, REALLY BAD.

In most years past GW gave at least a solid month's notice on these things, but last year on top of all the other bad news about policy changes, staff and hours cuts, etc. they only posted it on their website unceremoniously one week ahead of the official date of the change, May 28 (which was also Finecast roll-out date). However, news about it leaked out a month ahead thanks to independent sellers who had more than one week's notice. If anyone has seen anything yet, please share.

[Chuck777]

They'll probably put the price hike until after 6th edition drops. You know, bait you in then BAM hit you up with a price hike.

[eldargal]

Well I heard the Finecast price rise was supposed to be the last of the yearly rises simply because GW aren't so connected to the fluctuating and extremely high metal prices. I don't know if that is true but it will be interesting to see.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Supposedly Resin is a lot more stable and so shouldn't induce a price hike... I say shouldn't :L

... Banking for the Banking god, Money for the Money throne...

[daboarder]

thedarkgeneral said h'ed heard oh the hike months ago, at this point i fully expect it but i couldn't care less anymore about their unsustainable business.

[clively]

Well I heard the Finecast price rise was supposed to be the last of the yearly rises simply because GW aren't so connected to the fluctuating and extremely high metal prices. I don't know if that is true but it will be interesting to see.

That's not exactly true.

GW got smart a few years back. The initial move to Finecast, as well as the DE, GK and Necron army releases were part of the experiment to test for an "optimal" pricing structure. As you know, not everything moved to FC at once and the list of the items that didn't immediately move is interesting. Also, you'll notice that the delta in the individual model pricing wasn't the same across all of the FC products...

Every item in a market has a "sweet" spot for pricing that maximizes profits. Too low or too high actually has the same net effect: lower profits. However, GW didn't really know what that spot was. Technically, it's impossible to know until you institute managed price increases to the point that sales starts dropping.

That's a *very* simplified explanation, the reality is a bit more complicated especially when dealing with currency fluctuations on a global scale. Note that with global sales you can implement slightly different pricing across test markets for further refinement. Hence their restrictions, and subsequent enforcement, on what part of the world a store can sell its products in. The more you look at the past say 4 to 5 years of GW management, it becomes apparent that they've trying to figure this out for a while.

That said, given the current marine FC models that dropped I would guess they have a high degree of confidence that they've hit the right combination and we are unlikely to see the plastic ranges change outside of normal inflationary adjustments.

[Deadlift]

I have this feeling we may not see a price rise this year, I could be wrong, and its just a hunch but after the fiasco of last years finecast / price rise double whammy and the outcry it provoked not just from retail customers but suppliers also. Add in 6th and the wish to push as many 40k products as possible and the boost the Hobbit will give sales in December. I just don't think GW will rise prices because sales should be very good this year anyway.
I am presently touching all the wood I can lay my hands on :p

[daboarder]

Well I heard the Finecast price rise was supposed to be the last of the yearly rises simply because GW aren't so connected to the fluctuating and extremely high metal prices. I don't know if that is true but it will be interesting to see.

Could explain this latest splash of finecast marines, get the largest sellers into finecast before the end of the year to minimize the impact of metal prices.

[Cherub]

I heard that the price increase is going to be only on products sold or shipped into Texas :p

[Psychosplodge]

I heard they were limiting it to the Australian market, and it's also higher, twice the amount than usual...

[daboarder]

please don't say that, you'll give us nightmares...

[gendoikari87]

Supposedly Resin is a lot more stable and so shouldn't induce a price hike... I say shouldn't :L

... Banking for the Banking god, Money for the Money throne...

Oh god, this is epic.

[gendoikari87]

I have this feeling we may not see a price rise this year, I could be wrong, and its just a hunch but after the fiasco of last years finecast / price rise double whammy and the outcry it provoked not just from retail customers but suppliers also. Add in 6th and the wish to push as many 40k products as possible and the boost the Hobbit will give sales in December. I just don't think GW will rise prices because sales should be very good this year anyway.
I am presently touching all the wood I can lay my hands on :p

um... "Good enough" is not how business works, it works on taking every last dime in profit you can, actually every fraction of a penny you can.

[Deadlift]

um... "Good enough" is not how business works, it works on taking every last dime in profit you can, actually every fraction of a penny you can.

Not strictly true really, maybe for GW it is :), but that's not how all businesses work and it's not how I run mine (Amusements)
Sometimes by seemingly offering good value for money and excellent customer service you try to gain customer loyalty and repeat business. I am not saying that's GWs mantra ( I do think that GWs customer services are second to none) but no business has to be run to grab every last penny from all their customers. That just doesn't work.
Your analogy on GWs business practice however funny it maybe is not actually reality. No matter how good the plastic crack is if everyone felt like their being ripped off GWs business would start to fail and as we know it's currently doing very well indeed.

[eldargal]

That actually reminds me, I was talking to someone about the whole 'GW sales volume is declining as price rises outstrip revenue growth' thing, and he said this is wrong. Apparently plastic kits make up like 90% of GW sales and they have had much lower average price rises, more in line with inflation whereas it is low selling kits like characters, books and elite/special units that have borne the brunt of the price rises. On that basis GW sales volume is actually steady/up

Business isn't my field, does it work like this?

[Necron2.0]

I heard the real reason they switched to resin was because the electronic tracking devices kept burning up when they tried putting them in metal and plastic. Since "Finecast" is a cold cast medium, the devices put into GW products for monitoring the minions would be safe (obviously, the price increase on the cheaper material was to cover the cost of the added electronics). :)

[isotope99]

That actually reminds me, I was talking to someone about the whole 'GW sales volume is declining as price rises outstrip revenue growth' thing, and he said this is wrong. Apparently plastic kits make up like 90% of GW sales and they have had much lower average price rises, more in line with inflation whereas it is low selling kits like characters, books and elite/special units that have borne the brunt of the price rises. On that basis GW sales volume is actually steady/up

Business isn't my field, does it work like this?

That's been my experience, although there are isolated instances of huge jumps in prices to catch up with similar role units with higher sprue contents (e.g. falcon aligning with fire prism). price rises are usually above inflation but less drmatically than they look because GW doesn't increase the price of every kit every year so you have multiple years of inflation all at once.

As to metal/finecast models it is not clear to anyone (even GW most likely) what drives demand. If it is price then they will ultimately hurt themselves by raising prices as sales decline outstrips increased margin but if it is the preference for plastic kits then increasing margins to account for falling sales is actually sensible (if not pleasant for us) business practice.

[gendoikari87]

That actually reminds me, I was talking to someone about the whole 'GW sales volume is declining as price rises outstrip revenue growth' thing, and he said this is wrong. Apparently plastic kits make up like 90% of GW sales and they have had much lower average price rises, more in line with inflation whereas it is low selling kits like characters, books and elite/special units that have borne the brunt of the price rises. On that basis GW sales volume is actually steady/up

Business isn't my field, does it work like this?

yeah that sounds about right.

[gendoikari87]

Not strictly true really, maybe for GW it is :), but that's not how all businesses work and it's not how I run mine (Amusements)
Sometimes by seemingly offering good value for money and excellent customer service you try to gain customer loyalty and repeat business. I am not saying that's GWs mantra ( I do think that GWs customer services are second to none) but no business has to be run to grab every last penny from all their customers. That just doesn't work.
Your analogy on GWs business practice however funny it maybe is not actually reality. No matter how good the plastic crack is if everyone felt like their being ripped off GWs business would start to fail and as we know it's currently doing very well indeed.

Then if you are incorporated you are technically breaking the law, though it would be hard to prove. The goal of any company is to maximize profits before even the general welfare of the community, this is written in most charters. Small businesses may differ and repeat business is a strategy for long term investments so you can't really say you aren't doing that either.

[Deadlift]

Then if you are incorporated you are technically breaking the law, though it would be hard to prove. The goal of any company is to maximize profits before even the general welfare of the community, this is written in most charters. Small businesses may differ and repeat business is a strategy for long term investments so you can't really say you aren't doing that either.

I am not breaking the "law" as you put it. If I were in my business trying to squeeze every last penny out of my customers then I could just by adjusting the stakes and prizes percentages to such a level that technically then I would be breaking the law. The gambling side of my business is so heavily regulated that if I tried I would be caught quite quickly. 72 to 92 percent is the average fruit machine payout of it's gross take over a given period.

I don't know many things, but I do know my business and how to run. I respectfully suggest you don't. However most small business I know are genrally struggling to break even at the moment so it's a mute point really.

But back on topic I again disagree that GWs sole purpose is to generate profit. It's a big part of it I grant you but I like to think somewhere inside the company there are games designers that are in the job for the sole purpose of creative fun. I met Phil Kelly last year and chatting with him certainly gave me that impression.

[wittdooley]

I hope GW just increases the price high enough to drive off all the stinky, poor, undesireables. It would make the tournament scene much cleaner, and that's just good for everyone. The last thing I want my tournaments smelling like is Friday Night Magic.

[gendoikari87]

I am not breaking the "law" as you put it. If I were in my business trying to squeeze every last penny out of my customers then I could just by adjusting the stakes and prizes percentages to such a level that technically then I would be breaking the law. The gambling side of my business is so heavily regulated that if I tried I would be caught quite quickly. 72 to 92 percent is the average fruit machine payout of it's gross take over a given period.

I don't know many things, but I do know my business and how to run. I respectfully suggest you don't. However most small business I know are genrally struggling to break even at the moment so it's a mute point really.

But back on topic I again disagree that GWs sole purpose is to generate profit. It's a big part of it I grant you but I like to think somewhere inside the company there are games designers that are in the job for the sole purpose of creative fun. I met Phil Kelly last year and chatting with him certainly gave me that impression.

your right I dont know your bussiness, but i do know it is the law that if you have shareholders you are required to make as much profit as is legally possible and not doing so for whatever reason is against the law unless you can justify it as a long term profit motif. This is for any incorporated bussiness. And you can go to jail for not doing so, though most instances of good will can be written off as PR.

These laws mind you were not put down willy nilly, they serve a purpose to protect share holders, a purpose that perhaps is outdated but at the time was a very real necessity.

Individually these people might be the best of people with the best of intentions but GW's sole motif, as a company, by law, is profit. the people may be different, but as a company it has one goal, and that goes for any large company.

One question for you though: do you have shareholders.

[Wildeybeast]

Individually these people might be the best of people with the best of intentions but GW's sole motif, as a company, by law, is profit. the people may be different, but as a company it has one goal, and that goes for any large company.


Though that profit is not necessarily achieved by simply having the highest prices possible. There needs to be an optimal price point as others have mentioned and you can make an argument that investing in customer service and quality product is meeting the goal of raising profits by attracting new customers and raising their loyalty. As such their only goal is not just to simply rinse their customers of as much money as possible.

[gendoikari87]

Though that profit is not necessarily achieved by simply having the highest prices possible. There needs to be an optimal price point as others have mentioned and you can make an argument that investing in customer service and quality product is meeting the goal of raising profits by attracting new customers and raising their loyalty. As such their only goal is not just to simply rinse their customers of as much money as possible.

oh of course, you can be just as liable for these same laws with higher and higher prices as you can with being an outright philanthropist. In fact that's one of the things i've been arguing that GW needs to do to make more money is lower prices. One need not fleece everyone for every dime they can to make as much profit as they can, in fact fleecing people often has the opposite effect. The end goal is maximized profit, not profit per widget. it's maximizing the "profit per widget x widgets sold" equation that is the important thing and increasing widgets sold can have as much if not more effect on profit than profit per widget.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vorWknUybY

[jonsgot]

your right I dont know your bussiness, but i do know it is the law that if you have shareholders you are required to make as much profit as is legally possible and not doing so for whatever reason is against the law unless you can justify it as a long term profit motif.

In which country? The UK? GW is a PLC.

[gendoikari87]

In which country? The UK? GW is a PLC.

Every modern capitalist country. Like I said these laws were not placed by evil people they were placed as a necessity of capitalism in it's early days. IIRC in england they've been around as long as east india at least. If you'll notice in the video that was Royal dutch shell's CEO speaking at one point.

It is part of the basic framework of the legal construct of a corporation. It's there to give the shareholders a sense of security that they are making a sound investment.

[Nemesis]

I think that another point to think of here is the age old economic 'Law of Diminishing Returns'. A company, trying to make as much profit as possible, notices a drop in sales, possibly in one line of there products, and puts the prices up all round. This, in turn, leads to even lesser sales sooo, they put up the prices again, soooo, this leads to a drop in sales etc, etc.

There was a classic example of that here in Edinburgh a few years ago. The local bus group had been moaning about loss in revenue. Shortly after that, as part of a local festival of some kind I can't remember, halved there prices for the weekend--result all the buses were full and people were complaining about not being able to get a bus. Result, did the bus company think about this? No, shortly after that they put the prices up!

I ask you, what a comment on modern business. Are you reading this GW?

Do you care?

[Wildeybeast]

I think that another point to think of here is the age old economic 'Law of Diminishing Returns'. A company, trying to make as much profit as possible, notices a drop in sales, possibly in one line of there products, and puts the prices up all round. This, in turn, leads to even lesser sales sooo, they put up the prices again, soooo, this leads to a drop in sales etc, etc.

There was a classic example of that here in Edinburgh a few years ago. The local bus group had been moaning about loss in revenue. Shortly after that, as part of a local festival of some kind I can't remember, halved there prices for the weekend--result all the buses were full and people were complaining about not being able to get a bus. Result, did the bus company think about this? No, shortly after that they put the prices up!

I ask you, what a comment on modern business. Are you reading this GW?

Do you care?

But there is no evidence whatsoever that there has been a drop in sales. Their healthy profit could be taken as an indication that sales are in fatc doing rather well, though that would just be specualtion as GW doesn't release like for like sales figures.

[gendoikari87]

There is also long term growth to consider, even if you raise prices 10% and drop in sales 5% you have a net gain but if you were already looking at a slow or non growing customer base you might be making more money in the short term but if you start seeing less and less customers you will eventually go out of bussiness even if you continue to be profitable due to a core of customers that will pay exhorbitant prices as you keep trying to use higher and higher prices to cover up a diminishing base.

[lobster-overlord]

THe indicator for me that there won't be much if any of an increase is that there are no new price points on recent models. Generally, we start to see the latest stuff (Dec/Jan through month of increase) start showing up at new prices. Like when the Storm Raven kicked in at 66, we knew that there was going to be a price hike on kits to 66, and we wern't disappointed (at least not in the anticipation of the new price, but majorly at the actual steepness of the price itself). Valk, LRC, CSM LR, LR all came in at this point. The only new pricepoint I've seen lately is the $47.00 one. Vargheist, Necron Stalker adn Wraiths. So things like Dreads and Trolls ($44.50) and Ty Warriors ($42) might all go to this new 47 price.

[eldargal]

So, the fact that plastic kits make up most of GWs sales and have price rises lower than the average rise does mean GW sales volumes are not shrinking the way people claim then?

[Chuck777]

So, the fact that plastic kits make up most of GWs sales and have price rises lower than the average rise does mean GW sales volumes are not shrinking the way people claim then?

There's no way to tell without seeing the actual numbers. Heck, the 90% comment could be entirely false as well. We also do not know which game is generating more sales, not to mention which armies.

My guess is, the plastic and resin kits are dirt cheap for GW to make. The real costs of business is designing the sculpts (artists are expensive, even digital ones), making the molds (lot's of testing and fiddling, costs add up quickly + labor), and writing the rules/fluff (writers are expensive).

GW can make a profit by doing one of two things - selling their items for a low profit and hope they sell a boat load of kits OR sell their kits for large sums of money and hope they can constantly trick enough people into buying expensive kits.

To be honest, the biggest problem with GW is that it lacks an easy way to put planned obsolescence into their products. Look at Magic the Gathering. Every 2 years, a block of 3 sets rotates out of the most popular format of play. Wizards of the Coast thus forces you to buy new cards at least every 2 years. Heroclix is much the same way except they don't tell you which sets will rotate out a head of their announcement (which can lead to make or break moments for players who chose to invest heavily into one set or another). YuGiOh gets around the problem by releasing obscenely rare and really broken cards once a year. Peple buy tons of boosters in the hopes they will hit the jackpot (I'm talking 1:48+ kind of jackpot). D&D releases a new edition, which forces you to buy all new products (you can't use your old books from the last edition).

GW doesn't have a system like that. If you bought a Space Marine army 20 years ago, 99% of it will still be usable today. For that kind of player, GW can only sell them a new rule book and a Codex every 4 years (at best). GW thus really relies on veterans jumping ship to the latest and greatest as well as enticing new players to drop 400 dollars on a new army. The fact that GW continues to post profits in these difficult economic times is a testament to their ability to cut the fat (i.e. employees) from their operation and raise prices to a sustainably high margin.

[Psychosplodge]

But there is no evidence whatsoever that there has been a drop in sales. Their healthy profit could be taken as an indication that sales are in fatc doing rather well, though that would just be specualtion as GW doesn't release like for like sales figures.

I thought the annual report said they were essentially making the same return on less production?

I know this isn't a digital product, but apparently when they dropped the price of terraria on steam 75% they didn't see a four times increase in sales to retain the same profitability, they saw a 40 fold increase sales so they were ten times better off...

[eldargal]

I was referring more to the principle behind. Plastic kits make up most sales, low sale kits have most price rises. Averaging the price rise out therefore doesn't accurately reflect sales.

[Psychosplodge]

if plastic is the bigger seller and has a larger profit margin then lower volume seller won't skew the avgerage as much as if the low volume seller had the bigger profit margin.

too early for this lol

[eldargal]

I edited it to make it make sense, forgot to subit it. Fixed now.:rolleyes:

[Psychosplodge]

plus you can always add an extra squad or regiment (plastic) but do you need an extra character (resin)

[gendoikari87]

My guess is, the plastic and resin kits are dirt cheap for GW to make. The real costs of business is designing the sculpts (artists are expensive, even digital ones), making the molds (lot's of testing and fiddling, costs add up quickly + labor), and writing the rules/fluff (writers are expensive). relatively to per model sold cost that goes down with a higher sales volume.

[gendoikari87]

I thought the annual report said they were essentially making the same return on less production?

I know this isn't a digital product, but apparently when they dropped the price of terraria on steam 75% they didn't see a four times increase in sales to retain the same profitability, they saw a 40 fold increase sales so they were ten times better off...

problem with that is with digital product all or most cost of production has already been done, it doesn't take anything to produce another copy of said game so there is a limit to how low you can go with a physical product but yes, you do get exponentially higher sales as you go lower in price simply because the majority of people are weighted at the bottom of the economic scale or at least in the lower half, which these days isn't doing too good and doesn't have a whole lot to spend on games.

[Psychosplodge]

problem with that is with digital product all or most cost of production has already been done, it doesn't take anything to produce another copy of said game so there is a limit to how low you can go with a physical product but yes, you do get exponentially higher sales as you go lower in price simply because the majority of people are weighted at the bottom of the economic scale or at least in the lower half, which these days isn't doing too good and doesn't have a whole lot to spend on games.
Obviously the minimum price will probably be slightly higher, but there's probably a point where the lower price would be offset by a higher quantity purchased and remain profitable...

[Limey El'Jonson]

Spoke to my FLGS manager today. He's been told that a "price adjustment" will happen before 6th edition is released. He didn't get any more information than that.

[daboarder]

So, the fact that plastic kits make up most of GWs sales and have price rises lower than the average rise does mean GW sales volumes are not shrinking the way people claim then?

but their annual statements show that their sales numbers have been shrinking

[gendoikari87]

but their annual statements show that their sales numbers have been shrinking

I didn't think they released units sold data? or are you talking total revenue? cause that would be BIG after you account for higher prices and revenue from DOW II and Space Marine.

[daboarder]

they do release units sold data as a percentage, it doesn't break down by system though.

I remeber reading the last annual report and the australian sales were down 9-11%.

I think the UK sales were down as well with the US basically staying where they were, or it was the other way around. either way the annual trend was for a decrease in sales as a percentage.

profits were up though.

edit:

http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/2011-Full-Year-Report-and-Accounts-full-25-July.pdf

See sales are starting to trend down, not much and thats globally so they don't represent markets like Australia accurately, interestingly their profits are also trending down. The real tell will however be what happens to this year and I for one are eagerly awaiting their 2012 report.\


Key info:
UK sales -6.3%
US sales -4.8
AUS sales a whopping -11.8%

DOW and the like come under licencing, they get a percentage of the profits or a set annual fee from those items but its not made in house so the lions share of that income goes to relic and THQ

[gendoikari87]

they do release units sold data as a percentage, it doesn't break down by system though.

I remeber reading the last annual report and the australian sales were down 9-11%.

I think the UK sales were down as well with the US basically staying where they were, or it was the other way around. either way the annual trend was for a decrease in sales as a percentage.

profits were up though.

edit:

http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/2011-Full-Year-Report-and-Accounts-full-25-July.pdf

See sales are starting to trend down, not much and thats globally so they don't represent markets like Australia accurately, interestingly their profits are also trending down. The real tell will however be what happens to this year and I for one are eagerly awaiting their 2012 report.\


Key info:
UK sales -6.3%
US sales -4.8
AUS sales a whopping -11.8%


Damn. So what now GW, gunna raise those prices again to try and dig for an imaginary higher sweet spot in price, or are you going to come to your senses and drop prices.

[daboarder]

their response to approximately -20% sales in AUS over a 2 year period (11% and 9%) was to attempt to effectively embargo the region earning nothing but ill will from their customers and resulting in a move oof purchasing from the euro-zone to america, do you really think they are going to change their business template any time soon?

[Chuck777]

And here I was considering expanding my armies. HA! Not now!

Great move GW! Way to go!

[Deadlift]

I spoke with the owner of my local independent model shop, and asked her if she had heard anything yet on price rises for GW products, she said her rep had given her the impression that there were no plans in place to increase prices..........yet.

[lattd]

We have heard a price adjustment is coming which way that goes based on precedent is, however they might consider dropping it due to the double dip recession in the UK.

[Psychosplodge]

One of my local independents is doing her nut, as the rep won't tell her anything, the paint changeover came as a complete surprise to her...
It's getting to the point where she said she's considering telling them to take their stuff back...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

We have heard a price adjustment is coming which way that goes based on precedent is, however they might consider dropping it due to the double dip recession in the UK.

Never have I felt so glad to be in recession...

(I am not happy about it)

[LostInTheDark]

Not sure where it sits in the prices discussion, but GW released to the market that revenue was likely to be above expectations

LONDON (SHARECAST) - Games Workshop Group has said that it will pay a dividend of 16p per share. The firm also revealed that pre-tax profits for the year to June 3rd are likely to be ahead of current market expectations, having previously told investors that trading during the first four months was in line with expectations. Investors welcomed the news, sending the share price 3.11 per cent higher at 580p.

[ksoh75]

And I get scolded for not buying into my local game stores and shop online for discounts.....

With the prices the way they are, any price hike is still going to suck.


We all may be *****ing about it now, but if you think about it, we all *****ed last time GW rose the prices and what did we do?? We kept buying......little more frugle about who and where we bought from...but we still bought

[gendoikari87]

We have heard a price adjustment is coming which way that goes based on precedent is, however they might consider dropping it due to the double dip recession in the UK.

this would make me buy from them again, just to reinforce good behavior.

[gendoikari87]

And I get scolded for not buying into my local game stores and shop online for discounts.....

With the prices the way they are, any price hike is still going to suck.


We all may be *****ing about it now, but if you think about it, we all *****ed last time GW rose the prices and what did we do?? We kept buying......little more frugle about who and where we bought from...but we still bought

I didn't I quit. Sold my army for dirt cheap too just to undercut GW.

[Psychosplodge]

And I get scolded for not buying into my local game stores and shop online for discounts.....

With the prices the way they are, any price hike is still going to suck.


We all may be *****ing about it now, but if you think about it, we all *****ed last time GW rose the prices and what did we do?? We kept buying......little more frugle about who and where we bought from...but we still bought
Not everybody did.
I decided I'd already got enough unpainted stuff to last several years (so far proved right) and apart from limited edition stuff haven't bought any models for at least two years.
Still get all the 40k books though...just really love the universe lol

[eldargal]

We should wait until it is actually confirmed and we know by how much prices go up before we start complaining. Back in January a store owner went on Warseer and claimed there was a price rise coming at the end of that month, and it didn't. Having said that this is the time of year for GW price adjustments so it is more likely.

As unlikely as it is, it would be so great if GW announced a price drop. Not just because it will save people money and earn them some good will, but I want to see all the haters heads explode from the shock.:rolleyes:

[Psychosplodge]

It'd be messy though...

[Deadlift]

I didn't I quit. Sold my army for dirt cheap too just to undercut GW.

So if you have no army, whats your interest in the game and by extension these forums ?

Just wondering.

[gendoikari87]

So if you have no army, whats your interest in the game and by extension these forums ?

Just wondering.

Fluff/vassal/waiting for it to be affordable again.

[Kawauso]

I didn't I quit. Sold my army for dirt cheap too just to undercut GW.

You still paid for the army to begin with, which went to GW, and if you indeed sold it for 'dirt cheap', what's to say the buyer would have bought anything at the regular prices? Or that they didn't think "great, I can start off with this and expand the army by buying more, or buy an entirely new army on the side now"?

Just saying...pretty doubtful that you undercut them.

[gendoikari87]

You still paid for the army to begin with, which went to GW, and if you indeed sold it for 'dirt cheap', what's to say the buyer would have bought anything at the regular prices? Or that they didn't think "great, I can start off with this and expand the army by buying more, or buy an entirely new army on the side now"?

Just saying...pretty doubtful that you undercut them.

well that's why I TRIED to.

[Wildeybeast]

We should wait until it is actually confirmed and we know by how much prices go up before we start complaining. Back in January a store owner went on Warseer and claimed there was a price rise coming at the end of that month, and it didn't. Having said that this is the time of year for GW price adjustments so it is more likely.

As unlikely as it is, it would be so great if GW announced a price drop. Not just because it will save people money and earn them some good will, but I want to see all the haters heads explode from the shock.:rolleyes:

I'd halve the price on Space Marines while doubling the price on everything else (except SoB which I'd just foregt about entirely) and watch the internet melt with the nerd love/rage.

[ksoh75]

I'd halve the price on Space Marines while doubling the price on everything else (except SoB which I'd just foregt about entirely) and watch the internet melt with the nerd love/rage.

You are a SICK induvidual....LOL:p

[Wildeybeast]

You are a SICK induvidual....LOL:p

Yeah, my friends keep telling me that. It's probably these sort of thoughts that leads to starting fires just to see what happens. I should probably worry more about that....

[wittdooley]

And I get scolded for not buying into my local game stores and shop online for discounts.....

With the prices the way they are, any price hike is still going to suck.


We all may be *****ing about it now, but if you think about it, we all *****ed last time GW rose the prices and what did we do?? We kept buying......little more frugle about who and where we bought from...but we still bought

The prices for GW are right in line with any other miniatures game on the market. Any complaint you can make about GW prices you can make about Privateer, or Corvus Belli, or Avatars of War, or any other miniatures company that makes minis of comparable quality

Now, I'll allow that Dust Warfare may make some serious inroads here because they are significantly cheaper than any other miniatures game out there, but I think that is more a product of the fact that FFG allows online stores to give a 30%+ discount on their products...right now.

And FYI, there are AT LEAST two stores in the city that give you the exact same discount for GW products as you'd get online. Just saying.

[gendoikari87]

In all honesty what I would do is basically along the following lines.

Special Characters: 10 USD
Tanks/MC: 35 USD
25mm Infantry (10 models per box): 25-30 USD
40mm Infantry (5 Models Per box): 35-40 USD
Aircraft: 50 USD
Upgrade/decorative bits sprues: 15 USD

Some adjustments to moulds might be required to make this work but it is very easily doable with the same detail GW already provides(actually in fact GW DOES already do in some cases, the Tech priest used to be 10, 10 robed dark angels with a boat load of bits are or were several months back 32 USD, Cadians used to be what 10 for 20 usd, ect, ect, ect.) . In fact some of what keeps prices high are extra add on bits, which as you can see I'd move to a separate thing all together

after that I'd close all those 1 or 2 table GW micro stores, and either let local game shops take over or actually build the large ones that could support actual tournaments. Then reinvest in making the tournament scene cool again, or at least bigger and cooler.

[Deadlift]

Tanks/MC: 35 USD
.

Rhino chassis tanks same as a LR, never gonna happen.

[gendoikari87]

Rhino chassis tanks same as a LR, never gonna happen.

okay the land raider is in a class of it's own. but leman russ, and the like, yeah. Still the land raider would not be damn well near 70 bucks.

[wittdooley]

In all honesty what I would do is basically along the following lines.

Special Characters: 10 USD
Tanks/MC: 35 USD
25mm Infantry (10 models per box): 25-30 USD
40mm Infantry (5 Models Per box): 35-40 USD
Aircraft: 50 USD
Upgrade/decorative bits sprues: 15 USD


But these prices aren't even remotely reflective of what is "industry standard" at this point. No one is selling a Special Character model (in metal or resin or plastic) for $10. Mantic isn't even doing that.

25mm Infantry PPM by Company

Corvus Belli - Ariadna: Force de Reponse Rapide Merovingienne BOX - $45 - $7.50 / metal model
Privateer Press - Cygnar Allies: Precursor Knights - $70 - $7.00/ metal model
Games Workshop - Legion of the Damned Squad - $41.25 - $8.25 / resin model

It's hard to even compare plastic models, because NO ONE ELSE DOES THEM to the quality that GW does. The Avatars of War models are the only viable comparison (I'm sorry, the Mantic Plastics don't touch the GW/AoW plastics), so we can look at those:

Avatars of War: Dwarf Berserkers Regiment (Plastic) - $35 - $1.75 / plastic model
GW Dwarf Warriors - $35 - $2.20 / plastic model

Everything is pretty much in line with one another within what I'd call an acceptable range. With that in mind, where are you even getting your pricing structure from?

[Psychosplodge]

. It's probably these sort of thoughts that leads to starting fires just to see what happens. I should probably worry more about that....

Nah that's normal.......ish

[gendoikari87]

No one is selling a Special Character model (in metal or resin or plastic) for $10. Mantic isn't even doing that.

Techpriest, before last price increase it was 10USD (BTW it's only 11.25 now and it's metal) and it's one of GW's best models, and very intricate. And like I said the dark angels upgrad sprue makes 10 marines and half a terminator with tons of left over bits all for 32 so yeah, those prices aren't at all unreasonably low.

[Chuck777]

The prices for GW are right in line with any other miniatures game on the market. Any complaint you can make about GW prices you can make about Privateer, or Corvus Belli, or Avatars of War, or any other miniatures company that makes minis of comparable quality


The difference is that no other game company is forcing you to purchase as many models to play their game at a reasonable points level.

Remember, GW has also raised costs through deflating points costs, thus forcing the consumer to buy more kits. This is just as much a price hike as actually raising prices, especially for players starting a new army.

[Kawauso]

Techpriest, before last price increase it was 10USD (BTW it's only 11.25 now and it's metal) and it's one of GW's best models, and very intricate.

Techpriests are not Special Characters. You can fit several of them in an IG army.

Named characters like, say Lysander are always going to have a hefty price tag because you buy one for your army and...you are done.

[gendoikari87]

Techpriests are not Special Characters. You can fit several of them in an IG army.

Named characters like, say Lysander are always going to have a hefty price tag because you buy one for your army and...you are done.

yes because the models are so completely different in their manufacture.... Discussions on rules and table top performance do not belong in a discussion on prices. They always find themselves there and GW bases prices on them but that doesn't mean they should.

[wittdooley]

The difference is that no other game company is forcing you to purchase as many models to play their game at a reasonable points level.

Remember, GW has also raised costs through deflating points costs, thus forcing the consumer to buy more kits. This is just as much a price hike as actually raising prices, especially for players starting a new army.

Um... I play plenty of Killzone & Combat Patrol... so no, they aren't 'forcing you to purchase' as many models to play the game. GW has even PROVIDED rules to play at 'reasonable points levels.' Its not my fault, or GWs, if no one choses to play them.

If you want to play the game at "tournament standard" (which, let's remind ourselves, GW DOESN'T SUPPORT) you'll need more models, but no one is forcing that on you.

[wittdooley]

yes because the models are so completely different in their manufacture.... Discussions on rules and table top performance do not belong in a discussion on prices. They always find themselves there and GW bases prices on them but that doesn't mean they should.

I sort of agree with you, as my previous response should indicate, but you do 'sort of' have to figure in the type of model here. There has to be a certain threshold with which GW needs to sell a character model in order to recoup the design/moulding costs. With Unique characters, it would make sense that the prices are a bit higher. But, to agree with you, this shouldn't be considered any different than a boutique minatures company like McVey that charges a bit more for a figure, again, because they have to in order to reach that profit threshold.

[gendoikari87]

I sort of agree with you, as my previous response should indicate, but you do 'sort of' have to figure in the type of model here. There has to be a certain threshold with which GW needs to sell a character model in order to recoup the design/moulding costs. With Unique characters, it would make sense that the prices are a bit higher. But, to agree with you, this shouldn't be considered any different than a boutique minatures company like McVey that charges a bit more for a figure, again, because they have to in order to reach that profit threshold.
yeah but we're talking techpriests here, you can only take a max 2 instead of 1 with SC and lets be honest... no one takes techpriests, the only people really buying them are people like me with a love for all things mechanicum to use as sergeants. granted we don't know if GW is recouping on their investment with the techpriest...

[Kawauso]

yes because the models are so completely different in their manufacture.... Discussions on rules and table top performance do not belong in a discussion on prices. They always find themselves there and GW bases prices on them but that doesn't mean they should.

I think you're missing the point.

Every player with an IG army out there can run, what, 4 Techpriests per army?

Every SM army out there, however, can run 1 Lysander. that's it.

It has nothing to do with difficulty of manufacture - what this means is that the Lysander model will -have- to cost more to recoup the cost of creating it, since people are going to be buying it far less frequently than, in this example, a Techpriest.

[Deadlift]

yes because the models are so completely different in their manufacture.... Discussions on rules and table top performance do not belong in a discussion on prices. They always find themselves there and GW bases prices on them but that doesn't mean they should.

That's because as we know GW do price some models on their points value. So of course that very point has merit in a discussion about pricing. Your personal belief that GW should not price models on this basis does not mean we can't discuss that in this thread.

Also thinking of the extra detail on some character models in comparison to said tech priest, the detail is night and day and I expect to pay a little more for it.

[gendoikari87]

That's because as we know GW do price some models on their points value. So of course that very point has merit in a discussion about pricing. Your personal belief that GW should not price models on this basis does not mean we can't discuss that in this thread.

Go ahead discuss it, but it's a completely backwards way of pricing. your opinion may vary.

[Kawauso]

That's because as we know GW do price some models on their points value. So of course that very point has merit in a discussion about pricing. Your personal belief that GW should not price models on this basis does not mean we can't discuss that in this thread.

There is that, too.

But it's hard to see whether that's true or not...
For example, the Valkyrie and Monolith kits are both $70 CAD...which is about the price of a Land Raider.
In terms of in-game usefulness, it would seem like the valkyrie is priced appropriately, whereas in terms of points cost, the Monolith is (not that I'm particularly happy with either kit being $70...). So I'm not sure what's going on there, really.

[Deadlift]

Actually looking at some of the new Necron kits, the plastic wraiths and tomb spiders especially, you do get quite a bit of kit for the money. My only complaint there is the tomb spider should have at least on base worth of scarabs.
The monolith used to be (in my opinion) one of the best tanks in the game and it's a big kit. Easily on par with a LR. it's such a shame it got nerfed in the codex. But I guess it was predictable.

[Kawauso]

The newer kits are priced quite nicely...really hoping to be able to grab some soon.

The Monolith is a big kit, true, so there's that. And it fills the sort of 'Land Raider' spot in the army...I don't think it's nerf was so bad as a lot of people are saying...it just fulfills a role that's no longer needed in the Necron army, really. It's still a decent unit, but it used to be an all-important crutch for a lot of builds. Now Necrons have a lot of vehicles that do a lot of things very well, though, and the Monolith is a big, expensive vehicle that has some neat tricks but doesn't really do any one thing all that well.

[Chris Copeland]

Maybe it's just where I am in life right now: I find that I can't get worked up about this. I love this hobby, I spend X number of dollars on it each month, and I have as yet to say, "Oi, I'd never pay THAT." I own several fully painted armies at this point. Let's say I wanted another Landraider... y'know what I would do? I'd plop down the fifty bones for another Landraider... if I was trying to buy a full army all at once I might be bothered... but this is a piecemeal hobby...cheers...

[Gotthammer]

The prices for GW are right in line with any other miniatures game on the market. Any complaint you can make about GW prices you can make about Privateer, or Corvus Belli, or Avatars of War, or any other miniatures company that makes minis of comparable quality

A Land Raider costs $66usd vs $110aud, an approx 70% increase. A PP warjack starter kit costs $49.99usd vs $58aud, about a 15% increase. Infinity and all the other small manufacturers are about the same increase as PP, and in some cases less (representing accurate excange rates).
Keep in mind the Au and US dollar are roughly on parity, and have been for some time now. If GW prices were the same as the US +10% or so, I wouldn't complain as it seems reasonable in that range.

So yeah, haven't bought any GW kits for a looong time.

[daboarder]

you'll never convince them otherwise Gotthammer, we had the same arguments this time last year.

[Chris Copeland]

I think that if I were in Australia I'd probably be out on buying GW stuff. They seem to have pushed the market beyond the breaking point there. If they have they'll suffer the economic consequences down there. Here in Texas the prices haven't passed any breaking point for me yet...

[Chuck777]

Prices in the US have passed the "oh I am casually interested in this game" phase. You're in it or you aren't, there isn't really room for an in between any more.

If prices rise to about the halfway point between US and Australia, I think that will be most people's breaking point. This would put the cost of a Space Marine Tactical Squad at 50 dollars. Yeah, at that point it is game over for a lot of people.

[gendoikari87]

Prices in the US have passed the "oh I am casually interested in this game" phase. You're in it or you aren't, there isn't really room for an in between any more.

If prices rise to about the halfway point between US and Australia, I think that will be most people's breaking point. This would put the cost of a Space Marine Tactical Squad at 50 dollars. Yeah, at that point it is game over for a lot of people.

Think about that for a minute.... ten miniature pieces of freaking plastic for 50 bucks. .... No wonder they call it plastic crack you have to be addicted to pay that. Luckily we aren't there YET, but if GW keeps upping prices beyond inflation, we will.

[ksoh75]

The prices for GW are right in line with any other miniatures game on the market. Any complaint you can make about GW prices you can make about Privateer, or Corvus Belli, or Avatars of War, or any other miniatures company that makes minis of comparable quality

Now, I'll allow that Dust Warfare may make some serious inroads here because they are significantly cheaper than any other miniatures game out there, but I think that is more a product of the fact that FFG allows online stores to give a 30%+ discount on their products...right now.

And FYI, there are AT LEAST two stores in the city that give you the exact same discount for GW products as you'd get online. Just saying.

Not really....For what I pay online, I get 25-30% off and a nice flat rate for shipping that takes 2 days tops to get here and save loads of money. Gas is $4 a gallon ya know.....

[SilkySkullShell]

Mmmm
Price theories.
Flex those alphabrtical and theoretical lingual chops!

I don't live in Australia at the moment because I love my 40K too much. That said...
It's gotten increasingly expensive and GW prices, more so than any other factor, encouraged my exploration into 3rd party alternative shopping avenues. Which has been great for my modelling in general and opened my eyes to so many other great and finely detailed models, conversions, games rule-sets and the like. That said, it has cost GW a couple of G a year. And I'm just one Joe. I know many more who aren't even buying anything GW anymore. Sad for me cause I'm now a sol oGW gamer. Regardles with 6th & CSM on the way, I know GW and I will be doing business for a long time to come. Black Library and Forge World are also expensive, but I'm hooked, what can I say? So that said, it is still the prices that encouraged me to think outside the GW box. So I do know from my personal experience some long term gamers really did just totally jump ship. That said sad as it i in a totally joyous way I can't live with out that GW loving. Evertime I read a new Heresy novel I start chopping, gluing and painting because Graham or Dan just popped my matter and something written in those crazy stories inspired me to get modelling. Still if GW prices don't go up all year, that wouldbe nice because it is not so easy to find spare change for many out there at the moment and it is nice to be able to afford something that is really sweet.

No theory after all just a whole lotta love for the grim dark!
GW please don't raise prices AGAIN this year!
Seriously.

[jonsgot]

I no longer live in Australia but my decision to leave had little to do with GW prices. You can still import from Europe it's just not a easy as it was.

GW is priced to not be cheap so you have to invested from the outset, although you get a lot more for your money when you are starting out. Black reach is 1000 points worth, The same money then buys you a battle force about 500 points, then 2 elite choices or tanks 300 points. Then you start in on forge world and can pick up 1 tactical or Assault squad for the same money 200 points. If you are in Aus Forge world stuff is much cheaper in 7real terms.

What you Aussies don't realise is a Tactical squad cost about 4 hours at the minimun wage for an Adult in Aus. It's 3.8 hours in England. So although the exchange rate makes it look bad, it not that different.

40k is cheaper than a game console and then costs about the same as games do to keep expanding. GW does not make us obsessive about making our army bigger. They just cash in on something that is human nature. Some would call it greed. We call it collecting. I think they have been adjusting some of their prices but in such a way that is doesn't under value the hobby. The new Tyranid monsters could have been priced the same as a land raider.

[wittdooley]

Not really....For what I pay online, I get 25-30% off and a nice flat rate for shipping that takes 2 days tops to get here and save loads of money. Gas is $4 a gallon ya know.....

You're wrong, CJ. You don't EVER get 25-30% unless you're buying on eBay. None of the online merchants sell for more than 22% off.

I'm not saying there isn't a time and place for buying online. I'm simply saying we do have local alternatives.

[gendoikari87]

You're wrong, CJ. You don't EVER get 25-30% unless you're buying on eBay. None of the online merchants sell for more than 22% off.

I'm not saying there isn't a time and place for buying online. I'm simply saying we do have local alternatives.

wayland has some things for up to 30% off, just sayin...

Edit: also it ships faster than anything i've used. period.

[Psychosplodge]

. Gas is $4 a gallon ya know.....

That's so cheap...try paying about $2.5 a litre...

[SilkySkullShell]

As far as 40 K is concerned I think it is really great that we can buy from all of the online retailers.
I think us gamers are an imaginative resourceful lot. I like to buy from GW cause I like to track it and get all excited about its arrival etc.
Anyway thats me.
Learning to play games means we can reseach and learn complex stuff and retain it.
So with that in mind let's share understandings.

I'm not talking about me the thread is about price rises and I am thinking about how that affects the way people think.

The fact is it is over double the price in Australia to buy the same thing somewhere else.

I'm on a plane I'm reading the a HH novel. I left it on the plane or in a trolly not sure I was sleepy, still I really want to konw how it ends. Back at this time that I'm writing about the novel was 'The First Heretic'
I got on the plane in the northern hemisphere and got off in Australia. After I got to my motel I went to the local Mall downtown and went into a GW store the same book is not double the price it is over double the price. Of course the solution is ebooks, but the asme reason I no longer have the novel is the reason I don't read my kindle while travelling. Yadayada we all know a thousand solutions to get around this so don't give me one. My point here is that the price blew me away and it also blew a commnuity of gamers away too. I'm just saying it used to be that lots of people I know, used to be into 40K in Australia and they no longer are because of a very obvious exploitation. The artificailly high infalation of the Aussie dollar due to Chinese exports and other market factors are real I know. Many companies are milking this perceived wealth. That said global companies sometimes take advantages of certain communities and I don't think it has long term wins.

Back on point in relation to the thread issue being - price rise this year -
The old gamers, you know the ones that teach the new gamers, lend them models etc well in those communities that I used to frequent in Australia, they are now teaching different games, in other words, old gaming friends were no longer playing 40K. It was not just economic reasons. when talking to these people I came to realise it was mostly psychological reasons. In other words the pricing discrepencies had extra affects beyond basic economics. It had become emotional.

I don't need a solution I am just sharing my observation because I really love my 40K.

In my life over the last 5 years I have witnessed a rapid move away from 40k in Australia.

Needless to say I bought the book. for 20+ AUSD instead of 9USD.
The next week I was back in a country where I could of got if for half price again, but hay it's not an issie for me and I am not complaining about it either so don't get confused reading my post.
I'm observing something and sharing that observation with yas all.

A price rise this year - well the shares/stocks report is out - so we know a price rise is not necessary is it plausble?

Good community leaders, I admire, are compassionate pacient ones.
So go forth and teach ya kids with patience and if ya can't stand the heat stay out of the bioler room, strike fast play hard / win at all costs / joking - keep it light and informative and you can hold interest for longer.
I like to play and share the 40K game / universe with as many as I can. however - price increases . . . [/FONT]

[Kawauso]

You're wrong, CJ. You don't EVER get 25-30% unless you're buying on eBay. None of the online merchants sell for more than 22% off.


http://www.gc-minis.com/index.htm
These guys sell for 30% off...always have as long as I've known the site.
The site is slow to update and orders are slow to ship, but still.

Canadian prices though, of course, which can be pretty crap compared to the US or UK prices in some areas. Best option I have where I am now, seeing as apparently customs around here loves to ream me a new one when I order from the States (when I was living on the west coast it was best ordering from places like DiceBucket, as customs never dinged me once on stuff from the US; where I am now I placed 1 order from them and customs added on an extra $125, which pretty much defeated the point of ordering from them in the first place).

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

You know what's quicker than getting it delivered?
Walking into a store and picking it up. :D

[eldargal]

Retailer price lists are out for June and there is no annual price rise, just the usual Finecast increases (and some decreases).

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I don't get the Finecast rants, I much prefer them to metal. It means that I can actually fegging convert them as opposed to blunting all my tools.

[Psychosplodge]

Retailer price lists are out for June and there is no annual price rise, just the usual Finecast increases (and some decreases).

Can we have a "usual" finecast increase yet o-O?

[gendoikari87]

I don't get the Finecast rants, I much prefer them to metal. It means that I can actually fegging convert them as opposed to blunting all my tools.

This a million times over.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

This a million times over.

It's so true though!
I've also NEVER had a bad experience with Finecast, and I play Necrons! xD

[gendoikari87]

It's so true though!
I've also NEVER had a bad experience with Finecast, and I play Necrons! xD

i noticed a few bubbles but and a bit of warping, and I miss the heft of metal but

A) they're easier to convert
B) you can actually glue them without worrying about pinning
C) paint actually sticks to them.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

i noticed a few bubbles but and a bit of warping, and I miss the heft of metal but

A) they're easier to convert
B) you can actually glue them without worrying about pinning
C) paint actually sticks to them.

I can build a Thunderfire Cannon without screaming! :D

[gendoikari87]

I can build a Thunderfire Cannon without screaming! :D

I can finally go back and rebuild THIS without screaming (the original dropped and shattered it's wings.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs518.ash1/30499_719422699311_33024362_39687079_4245209_n.jpg

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Poor flying Lizard. It was so happy eating all the things.