Path of the Outcast - What do you think will happen?

[Levitas]

I've just finished up two books of the Eldar trilogy, Path of the Warrior and Seer. And now I have to wait. :( But for those that have read them we can speculate what we think will happen in the 3rd book. Spoilers will ensure so, be ye warned.

I think the big question is what on earth does Aradryan do to provoke such a large and ambitious attack on the craftworld? We get glimpses of an attack on an imperial ship, but thats about it. Someone of importance has to be on that ship, but who?

While I don't doubt that the craftwordl is saved, I do have one eye on the next codex eldar and the possibility of developed fluff for Alaitoc. Is it ravaged much like Iyanden?

We pretty much know of the fate of Korlandril, but what of Thirianna and Aradryan?

What do you guys think?

[DrLove42]

Thirianna will survive. I'm sure. Aradryan might, but its whether or not he rturns to the craftworld afterwards (i'd guess no)

I'd imagine the provocation is an attack on an imperial ship. It'll either be a massive trade route or an important individual. If it triggers a huge retalition like that...its gonna be big.

I'd imagine there will be a bit of an epilogue for what happens to everyone (well those alive) after the invasion

[eldargal]

Remember each book only adds maybe half an hour to an hour to the timescale. PotS ends quite soon after PotW. At the time Seer ends, Thirianna is well behind the frontlines so I doubt anything bad will happen to her. I hope so at any rate, female Eldar characters with actual character development are rare enough without killing them off. I would expect Aradryans part in the actual combat to be relatively short and sweet, extending the timeline only another half an hour or so. Then there will be an epilogue.

Aradryan may survive too, but I wouldn't say it is certain. As to Alaitoc I think the physical damage will be far more severe than the population damage. The invaders were being herded the whole time so one assumes the civilian population were safely isolated at other ends of the ship, far away from the fighting.

Was there mention of Aradryan taking something from the Imperium as well as attacking a ship? I thought there was but I may be misremembering. If not I would assume someone or something on the ship was very important, important enough for the Imperium to set out to tun the cold war between IoM and Alaitoc into a hot war.

My prediction is Aradrayn dead or exiled with a small chance of learning his lesson and reintegrating into the Craftworld. Thirianna musing on the burden of leadership and losing her two closest friends and the Craftworld beginning to rebuild.

[Levitas]

I don't recall Aradryan stealing anything in Thirianna's vision. She just sees an attack on an imperial ship as he allies with corsairs. But it's possible for sure, either that or a high ranked imperial is taken out in the process.

Also how do they find the craftworld so quickly? I was under the impression that they were incredibly hard to find. So maybe Aradryan lets slip or is captured, or is duped in some way. Theres also the fact that he brings Harlequins back with him for the craftworld battle, so guessing they play some part.

I don't think Aradryan will survive, but will have a significant effect on the battle somehow thus redeeming himself. How much of the battle we see is debatable as he is gone from the craftworld for long periods and there is a fair amount to cover. I'm hoping that we get some cameos too from the Path of the Renegade.

Thirianna is a great character, I do hope she survives. The way she manipulates the Autarch to take a second look at her warning is done really well, as is the relationship with her father. She also rightfully shows the librarian how real psykers do business. Shes a fighter.

[eldargal]

I may have imagined that bit, it has been a while since I read PotSeer.:)

That remains a mystery, although to be fair we don't know how long an Eldar/Alaitoc cycle is. We assume it is a day so the whole thing takes months but it could be significantly more than that. Or less.:rolleyes: Even so you are right, the IoM and Alaitoc have been in a cold war since M36 (something called the Beelze Conflict occurred). Prior to that there was actually an Imperium Embassy on the Craftworld. So after five thousand years of cold warring the IoM suddenly finds and launches an all out attack on the Craftworld, something is going on there.

Well you may be right, but there was a lot of flak given over Korlandril dying at the end of PotW it is possible Mr Thorpe may be a bit gun shy over doing the same thing twice in the same trilogy.

I'm fairly certain she will survive. She was instrumental in driving back the Marine push into Craftworld, killing the librarian who was using his powers to guide them accurately against the Craftworlds psychic defenses. The Avatar is on the offensive and even the Marines have fallen back, given the likelihood that only a small amount of time will pass between the end of PotS and the end of PotO it doesn't seem at all likely that the IoM ofrces would be able to suddenly push forward again having lost the momentum, or that an exhausted Thirianna would abandon the defense of the Dome of Seers and get herself killed fighting a force that was retreating.

[Levitas]

Interesting! I hadnt heard of the Beelze Conflict but the infinity circuit (google...) has fully informed me now. Pretty cool, wonder if Gav will mention it.

Hmm. I didn't feel cheated when Korlandril joined with Karandras, in fact thought it was pretty cool. From artist to eternal phoenix lord is not a bad way to go. Although granted his personality is pretty much lost, and as a result doesn't truly tie in to the conclusion of the trilogy. I guess his part was played when he was used to convince the Autarch.

I'm wondering if Gav chose the Sons of Orar for a reason, or he just inserted generic chapter in there. The only stuff of note I could find was this...

The Jorun Retaliation
143.M41. On route to the Gothic War an Imperial Battlegroup, the 15th Heraklion Ironclads, turned on their Commissariat attachment and went renegade. Investigations into this turn of events uncovered the foul xenos taint of Dark Eldar, who had managed to ensnare and corrupt General Jorun and his command structure. Jorun and his fleet raided planet after planet, enslaving whole populations for their masters. The full Howling Griffons chapter was given command of the strike force, with support from the Ultramarines and Sons of Orar chapters.

[Anggul]

it doesn't seem at all likely that the IoM ofrces would be able to suddenly push forward again having lost the momentum, or that an exhausted Thirianna would abandon the defense of the Dome of Seers and get herself killed fighting a force that was retreating.

I wouldn't be so sure, this is the Farseer who supposedly sent a squad of Dark Reapers up onto a hill into a plasma blast. Also these Eldar seem incapable of shooting the one with the big gun (or make battleship weapons capable of putting a dent in an Imperial fleet), so a marine with a lascannon might single-handedly destroy the dome of crystal seers.

This is just me getting annoyed at the stupid parts of the final fight though (Of which there were an awful lot... no, bad Anggul!). I hope we get some epic moment where Aradryan gets the primary imperial commander in his sights and blasts his head into heat-mist/chops him to bits with his power sword or something. At the very least I'd really like to see the Phoenix Lords and Harlequins butchering their merry way through the Imperials. There isn't enough representation for the extreme power on the Eldar side in that fight. I read (to this effect): 'The marines are able to hold their own and in fact often prevail against the Eldar forces.' But all I'm thinking is: There are Eldar super-heavies, titans, aspect warriors with various weapons which can easily make a mockery of a space marine's armour and resilience, Harlequins of the Laughing God, Three (Count them, THREE) Phoenix Lords, every Farseer and Warlock the Craftworld has to offer, and an Avatar of Khaine. They also have their fleet, backed up by corsair ships, capable of outmanoeuvring the Imperials with ease and dealing almost as much damage (It's space, they can mount big heavy firepower and it doesn't really matter, and indeed they do, to which Battefleet Gothic testifies). This is not a force that you can invade with such an invasion force and stand a chance of dealing that much damage. Every part of the battle just goes against all sense, the military might of an entire Craftworld + outside allies does not have anything to fear from an invading force unless this is one of the largest fleets ever mustered.

Basically I really, really hope that this one actually explains why the Eldar are faring so relatively badly, and gives us some decent scope on what is going on. We need the bigger picture now rather than specific little skirmishes, and I think this is a good opportunity to give that, seeing as it will probably explain why it's happening in the first place.

[eldargal]

Predicting the future isn't exactly easy, I'm not sure why Thirianna could be expected to predict where a plasma blast is going to fall moments before it does.

Well the one criticism of the book I have is the way the Space Marines are doing so well inside the Craftworld. But the fleet is said to be enormous, the Eldar do an awful lot of damage but there are simply too many Imperium ships. Given that BFG says it takes an entire sector fleet to take on a Craftworld with no guarantee of success it could be that is what we are seeing, one of the larger fleets assembled since the Great Crusade.

I do agree on the bigger picture, but remember on the whole the Eldar aren't doing badly. Most of the IoM force is being redicted, herded and trapped. It was the presence of the Librarian and a core of Marines backed by Guard that were able to penetrate so far which does actually make sense in the context of how Marines fight. They were the spearhead that was ultimately repelled.

I was quite annoyed when it said something along the lines that 'the Aspect warriors were no match for the Space Marines'. FFS, Dark Reapers have weapons basically designed to kill Marines and Howling Banshees too. I get that maybe it was meant to refer to the strikeforce as a whole, backed by tanks and whatnot so the Reapers/Banshees couldn't get to attack on their terms. But it really pissed me off all the same.

[Levitas]

Gav Thorpe seems to do better at small skirmishes and character relationships, he doesnt feel comfortable with large scale. I glazed over a few times at the battle scenes as they were always one sided. Either the marines were unstoppable or the eldar were, there is no real suspense or scale. ADB writing Helsreach springs to mind, thats how you write big battles. Possibly why the actual fighting isnt massive parts of the books.

I totally agree, the Eldar have multiple ways to deal with power armor, but we don't get that impression. Also agree that it must be a truly huge imperial fleet. But guessing the 3rd book will explain and all will be justified. Pretty sure this battle will be in the next codex too, its too big to be ignored.

[Anggul]

Predicting the future isn't exactly easy, I'm not sure why Thirianna could be expected to predict where a plasma blast is going to fall moments before it does.

She seems to do just fine responding with lightning speed to the Ork attack on her Dire Avenger squad in the first battle. She appeared to be following the technique of Farseer HerpyDerp from the Necron codex of: 'Send in the troops to their deaths, screw using the scrying powers which we exist for the purpose of!'

[eldargal]

Orks didn't have a highly skilled Librarian masking their intentions.

[Anggul]

Orks didn't have a highly skilled Librarian masking their intentions.

It really doesn't take predictive powers or strategic genius to know that sending them up onto a hill was going to put them in an obvious position to be shot at. This isn't bows and arrows, raised ground without cover just puts you in danger. Also plasma cannons aren't difficult to see.

[eldargal]

Right because high ground totally isn't of any stratetig value post-bows and arrows.:p The fact is you are saying in the heat of batlte Thirianna should have been able to predict that a glowing ball of plasma moving extremely fast is going to fall all the while a SM Librarian is doing his best to shield the immediate forces. As criticisms go it is on the petty side. I'm not exactly thrilled with how the final battle depicted the Eldar but I don't think it was as bad as you are making it sound.

[Anggul]

Right because high ground totally isn't of any stratetig value post-bows and arrows.:p The fact is you are saying in the heat of batlte Thirianna should have been able to predict that a glowing ball of plasma moving extremely fast is going to fall all the while a SM Librarian is doing his best to shield the immediate forces. As criticisms go it is on the petty side. I'm not exactly thrilled with how the final battle depicted the Eldar but I don't think it was as bad as you are making it sound.

When you have a choice between being a little lower down and thus finding it harder to shoot the enemy or being an obvious target on an open hill... I'd have to say yes. Yes it really isn't of much strategic value. As for prediction, all she'd have to see is that sending them that way would be highly likely to result in their deaths, then decide: 'Probably shouldn't'. Or just, you know, look at that big glowing plasma cannon. Honestly I think it's more like you're telling yourself they were doing better than they actually were. You said previously that they were herding and winning overall, but it doesn't actually say that at any point. The only example of this is when they turn the shields off and suck a load of guard out into space, and even then that's not the Eldar troops, that's letting space in.

Overall though, it seems to me that he mostly does the individual fights quite well. It's the overall pictures that I think he slips and falls on. In Path of the Warrior when the cobra glides up, it takes a chunk out of the marines and keeps on going, that's what would be happening all across the battle. He insists, however, that the marines are matching them at almost every turn. Just seems a bit too far-fetched to me when he demonstrates himself what the Eldar firepower can do, especially in that quantity.

[eldargal]

She foresaw human soldiers advancing quickly to the base of the pathway, three squads of them led by an officer in a heavy coat. They carried simple lasguns and their fear resonated along the thread of their fate; they had strayd too far from the other landing parties, misdirected by Alaitoc itself, and would be easy prey.
There are other references too, venting Guard into space, as you said. The Craftworld itself is doing its best to fragment the invading force so it can be picked off by Eldar. It is only the arrival of the Space Marines and the abilities of the Librarian which prevent an earlier, decisive Eldar victory:

...Something was obscuring the skein, a presence she could not quite discern...There was a figure cloaked in uncertainty...It troubled her that this persons actions were hidden.


Alaitoc itself reacted to the presence of the invaders, reconfiguing walkways and passages, closing off domes and opening new pathways for the Eldar to encircle their foes.

The attack of the Space Marines had bolstered the flagging invasion of the humans, sending the craftworlds defenders reeling back
Classic use of reserves.

As had been agreed by the council before the invasion, parts of Alaitoc were surrendered without a fight. Force domes and energy shields were removed, exposing the advancing army to the ravages of open space.

The eldar forces moved under the direction of their autarchs, falling back, regrouping, attacking again. The beauty of their battleplan was laid out on the skein, a graceful, curving picture of ever shifting momentum...

You are also overstating the impact of the plasma blast, in context Thirianna was cloaking the Dark Reapers from enemy fire, most missed but not all. A plasma ball killed a few Reapers, futher down the page (394) those Reapers open fire on the Space Marines. Clearly they were not just standing around the top of the hill waiting to be blown up by plasma blasts.

I maintain you are considerably overstating the importance of the passage and continuing to underplay the strength of the Eldar position. They are deliberately ceding ground as part of their plan, while the Craftworld itself is splitting up the bulk of hte IoM advance. At the end of the book even the Space Marines are falling back.

[Levitas]

I agree with Eldar Girl, and also consider it from a writing perspective. He's trying to inject drama into a battle that we pretty much know who will win. Alaitoc will not be destroyed. So he has to give the imperial forces their moment to shine, and create a sense of threat. So we at least get some tension.

I dont see that the books are about the battle for Alaitoc, more about how the Eldar function and think. They show why the Path is in place, its dangers and good points etc. The battle is just a back drop for three eldar lives to intertwine around.

Its kinda like over analyzing the opening battle in Lord of the Rings, when the battle isnt really what the story is about. It just sets the scene.

[Anggul]

This is true. I suppose it's really the little parts where he slips up that get to me and mentally override the good parts for me. Disappointment rings longer than satisfaction I suppose (For some reason the part where a marine casually lascannons a Falcon always comes to my mind, I guess the driver was taking a break). It is an excellent book overall, I think it's the fact that rather than just establishing the marines as a threat, he appears to get some real bolter-jerk going in an attempt to make them seem a threat. I suppose he can't really be blamed too much, it's pretty damned hard to make something seem a real threat to an entire Craftworld with barely a trace of significant build-up. This was, of course, the point of Thirianna's vision and the plot following it, that they would appear almost unforeseen very suddenly, but it's not easy to do. Iyanden had the massive lead-up with the approaching Hive Fleet growing and growing in strength. This was an Imperial Fleet out of the blue (or black, I suppose), attacking for an unknown reason (Probably Corsairs causing a lot more mischief than they should... a LOT more if the size of the fleet is anything to go by!) I am looking forward to Path of the Outcast, and I said previously, I really hope we get to see Ranger, Corsair, Harlequin and Phoenix Lord badassery.

[eldargal]

Well I agree with that, it took me quite a while to get over the 'Aspect warriors are no match for Space Marines' line, and I still haven't entirely. But beyond a few little dissapointments the battle is really quite well done, and most of the dissapointments are one-liners.

[Lind99009]

I second that. There are points in the final battle which make me cring a bit inside, but as a long established Eldar fan, I can feel pleased with the book overall. It could have been much worse, they could be like Draigo.