stupid psychic grey knights

[commissar camenzuli]

i recently used my necrons against a grey knight armue. after three turns of him smashing stuff with hammerhand i had lost. who else agrees that grey knight psychic powers are too many and too strong, making them far more overpowerd???

[fuzzbuket]

psycic tests, and considering that his basic troops are MUCH more expensive than yours it really isnt a problem. also if your playing necrons you REALLY shouldnt be in CC with GK. you shoutld be shooting from a distance :P

[sangrail777]

Grey Knights pay for what they get. Just how it is. Necrons should be blasting from a distance. Take better care when deploying and how close your allowing them to get to your lines.
Keep in mind that just because you lose to an army doesn't mean it's "broken"
If both you and your opponent are playing at the same points costs then the reasons are simple:
Mission
Deployment
Simply out played
better favour of the dice gods

Learn from your game. If you take this lose to the Grey Knights and the only thing you got out of it was the thought that the GK are broken then thats the real only failure.
Better luck next time.

[Comrade_Nikolai]

Grey Knights pay for what they get. Just how it is. Necrons should be blasting from a distance. Take better care when deploying and how close your allowing them to get to your lines.
Keep in mind that just because you lose to an army doesn't mean it's "broken"


Learn from your game. If you take this lose to the Grey Knights and the only thing you got out of it was the thought that the GK are broken then thats the real only failure.

That being said, GK are ACTUALLY broken...

[eosgreen]

i remember when GK were horrible and you only bought them cus they looked cool....

those were the days...

[Sam]

Odds are pretty good that if hammerhand made you lose, you were going to lose anyway.

Necrons have plenty of tricks up their sleeve. Use them well and you can go toe to toe with GK easily.

[Paul]

I agree with your conclusion but not your premises.

GK ARE indeed broken, but not because of their psychic powers. They're broken because of their cost.

They pay for wargear and special rules (not only psychic powers) at a huge discount. Yes, they still pay, but it is stupidly cheap.

[Mr.Pickelz]

GK's can be beaten, you just gota adapt to your opponent's list, and how he is implementing it against you. If your big thing is hammerhand, and the other psyker powers, then your in melee or short enough range that you've done something wrong.

[Chumbalaya]

Oh look, it's this thread again.

GKs auto-win every game ever, so you guys should just save yourselves the anguish and quit.

Or, you could just cry less and actually get better.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Oh look, it's this thread again.

GKs auto-win every game ever, so you guys should just save yourselves the anguish and quit.

Or, you could just cry less and actually get better.

I haven't lost to GK in the three games that I've played against them. 1 draw and 2 wins.
So many dead Purifiers/Terminators...

[Chuck777]

Oh look, it's this thread again.

GKs auto-win every game ever, so you guys should just save yourselves the anguish and quit.

Or, you could just cry less and actually get better.

OR GW could make everyone else's codex stupidly undercosted to balance everything out. :rolleyes:

[Chumbalaya]

i haven't lost to gk in the three games that i've played against them. 1 draw and 2 wins.
So many dead purifiers/terminators...

no wai, gk r so op they w1n evry game evar!!!!!1!!


OR GW could make everyone else's codex stupidly undercosted to balance everything out. :rolleyes:

Keep trying, champ. One of these days you'll figure it out. I believe in you.

[Chuck777]

Keep trying, champ. One of these days you'll figure it out. I believe in you.

2 people of equal skill come to a tournament with take all comers lists. Player A plays GK while player B plays Necrons. Player A has a sizable advantage because he picked the best army.

This is no different than when IG or SW were the best but GK are a head above those two in that they can effectively out shoot, out melee and out Initiative most armies within 24 inches AND they have the capability of getting into that bubble quite quickly.

The OP definitely needs to adapt his play style to GK but that doesn't mean he will ever have an easy time playing against them.

[Colonel Kreitz]

This has been discussed to death, but...

It's not even that the entire GK army is undercosted or broken. It's just a few items. Purifiers are undercosted. Psiflemen dreads are undercosted (and I'd argued that psy-bolts really shouldn't be usable on autocannons, but if they are they should be pricier). Fortitude is horribly undercosted. Psychotroke and rad grenades are undercosted, psychotroke grenades are debatably broken. A couple of the special characters could use an overhaul.

Other than that, I really don't have too much of a problem with the army. I think my biggest sticking point is fortitude being too cheap, but I'm biased because I play two armies that rely heavily on suppression (DE with haywire and Necrons with Gauss) that are just useless against GK vehicles. Most of the list really is okay, in my opinion (including the psychic powers), but if you spam that stuff that's cheap or broken, you can build a pretty scary (and yes, I'd argue overpowered) army.

Unfortunately, if you play DE against a list spamming Psiflemen Dreads and Razorbacks with psybolts, all of which have fortitude, you're in for a Hell of a game.

[Deadlift]

Déjà vu :confused:

Oh good god no it's not, it's another GK over powered thread.

One thing I think we can agree on is that the army is a least as good as the fluff suggests. GK are awesome sauce but so they should be.

This wasn't an open invitation to verbally abuse me but if you so wish, flame on :).

[Levitas]

Another GK thread? Move along, nothing to see here...

I swear Matt Ward starts all these threads himself.

[Demonus]

As both a Necron player and a GK player, at which range is optimal to keep your Necrons at? Most of their weapons are in the 24-36" range....coincidentally, the GK are pretty good at this range as well. Not to mention Necrons are light on the AP2 guns to get rid of terminators with shooting.

I saw a poster earlier say that GK pay a lot more for their standard troops, well if you compare vs an Immortal, its only a couple pts more, not a lot. For those couple points, you get same basic statline, 2 shot guns at max range that you can assault with, free power weapons, ability to make yourself str 5, and a better base armor save and initiative.

Immortals have a 5-6 "reanimate" assuming its not cc, where you will get swept off the board and base LD 10.


I love my Necrons, but I feel they are at a disadvantage vs GK. They can't sit back and pound them like IG, or throw tons of bodies at them like Orks and Nids.

Just my 2cents.

[Rapture]

Sounds like you did not have a very good strategy. Close combat is not a good place to be as Necrons vs Grey Knights.


Or, you could just cry less and actually get better.
This is silly. The point is that the book is better than others. That is annoying and deserves attention. Just like the IG codex got attention. Then the Space Wolves. Casual or competitive, people want consistency rather than codex creep. It happens to an extent in almost every release, but some crawl forward while others sprint.

A reasonable approach to the situation should reveal that the GK codex is highly subject to exploitation in a variety of ways. Its shortcomings are few and far between on top of being easy to prevent and difficult to capitalize on. The units cost more than those of other codices - just not enough. The arguments have been made by both sides. They usually result in the defense admitting that certain things are overpowered.

[Chumbalaya]

This thread is going to go on for 10 pages of "nuh uh" and "uh huh". We get it, GKs make your butt sore. One whinefest at a time please.


2 people of equal skill come to a tournament with take all comers lists. Player A plays GK while player B plays Necrons. Player A has a sizable advantage because he picked the best army.

This is no different than when IG or SW were the best but GK are a head above those two in that they can effectively out shoot, out melee and out Initiative most armies within 24 inches AND they have the capability of getting into that bubble quite quickly.

The OP definitely needs to adapt his play style to GK but that doesn't mean he will ever have an easy time playing against them.

What sort of GK and Necron lists? You don't fight Codex vs Codex, you go player+ list vs player+list. If both players are highly skilled and using lists they're comfortable with, you're looking at a roughly 50/50 (maybe 40/60 either way). If you looking at less skilled players, GKs get the advantage for having a shallow learning curve and being good all-rounders, being generally more forgiving.

On paper, it appears that GK have an answer to everything. In practice, you can't have Draigo, Coteaz, Crowe, 40 Paladins, 50 Purifiers juggling psycannons, hammers and halberds simultaneously, 10 Razorbacks, 8 Storm Ravens, 9 Psyflemen and 27 different kinds of grenades in the same army. GKs have some pretty glaring holes unless you take a focused list and give something else up: lack of melta (Coteaz and Troops pretty much accounted for), lack of weapons with range over 24" (lock up all your Heavies in 3 AV12 vehicles, or spend double for 3 more and no Elites), vulnerability to anti-infantry (either mount up and sacrifice firepower or take a focused list with Coteaz), reliance on psychic powers and the like.


As both a Necron player and a GK player, at which range is optimal to keep your Necrons at? Most of their weapons are in the 24-36" range....coincidentally, the GK are pretty good at this range as well. Not to mention Necrons are light on the AP2 guns to get rid of terminators with shooting.

I saw a poster earlier say that GK pay a lot more for their standard troops, well if you compare vs an Immortal, its only a couple pts more, not a lot. For those couple points, you get same basic statline, 2 shot guns at max range that you can assault with, free power weapons, ability to make yourself str 5, and a better base armor save and initiative.

Immortals have a 5-6 "reanimate" assuming its not cc, where you will get swept off the board and base LD 10.


I love my Necrons, but I feel they are at a disadvantage vs GK. They can't sit back and pound them like IG, or throw tons of bodies at them like Orks and Nids.

Just my 2cents.

Comparing units 1-1 between Codices is the ultimate fallacy. Different armies, different units, different roles.

Necrons have enough anti-infantry power built in that your typical GK list has to choose between hiding in their boxes and giving up firepower, or getting hosed down by a ton of dice. Necron AP2 comes from Stalkers, Lance Crypteks, Heavy Destroyers and the less common Doom Scythes and Doomsday Arks. Necrons also have cheap speedbumps and bubblewrap in the form of Scarabs, as well as a durable holding unit in Wraiths.

Both armies excel at that 24" medium range. Necrons have the advantage of mobility, lots of cheap fodder, and Night Fight.


This is silly. The point is that the book is better than others. That is annoying and deserves attention. Just like the IG codex got attention. Then the Space Wolves. Casual or competitive, people want consistency rather than codex creep. It happens to an extent in almost every release, but some crawl forward while others sprint.

A reasonable approach to the situation should reveal that the GK codex is highly subject to exploitation in a variety of ways. Its shortcomings are few and far between on top of being easy to prevent and difficult to capitalize on. The units cost more than those of other codices - just not enough. The arguments have been made by both sides. They usually result in the defense admitting that certain things are overpowered.

IG was the most broken army ever, SW were the most broken army ever, BA, DE, Orks, Eldar, CSM and so on. Every army can't be OP, right? You guys realize that you make the same damn arguments with every flavor of the month Codex, right?

The only broken Codex in 5th is Tyranids, and even they can compete at a reasonable level with the rest. Any perceived balance issues come from GW's ridiculous release schedule. We wouldn't have problems if those idiots actually updated every army into the current edition, or even made quick fixes like DA and BT got, but instead we get to make it worse with a brand new edition.

I know this is a futile endeavor. We'll get the same tired rebuttals, anecdotes and appeals to authority. Got it. GKs are the most OP army EVAR and they auto-win every game becuz tey r so OP.

Before we get back to the sky falling, I just ask two things of you.
1) In 2 years when CSM or Tau or whatever are ruining 40k, read this thread again and see how many of your arguments are the exact same minus names.
2) Keep your kvetching to one thread at a time.

We now return to your regularly scheduled crying contest.

[the jeske]

On paper, it appears that GK have an answer to everything. In practice, you can't have Draigo, Coteaz, Crowe, 40 Paladins, 50 Purifiers juggling psycannons, hammers and halberds simultaneously, 10 Razorbacks, 8 Storm Ravens, 9 Psyflemen and 27 different kinds of grenades in the same army.
that is not the problem . most armies cant deal with all 3 of those at the same time and with IG and with SW and with the odd DE or necron army . A chaos player who builds an all comers army will just get steam rolled if he just metas draigo wings , but if he doesnt and runs in to draigo [and why wouldnt he it is a cheap army so many people play it] he will lose . More it doesnt matter what kind of a game he plays and what kind of an army he plays[as long as its not a mirror match] , if it happens to be a tournament one or a casual one . If he gets to play against draigo and the mission happens to be kill points [1/3 of all games] , the what can he do ? play to draw .

GK are a enviroment warping army just like chaos demons were for WFB when they came out [practicly destroyed an edition] , they break the main rules of the game . A gunline based around tanks should not be stunlock immune [for so cheap some say. I dont ] . A gunline should not have build in anti horde and counter units in to their gunline units . A deathstar build should not be immune to small weapon fire and draw kill point games [at worse] most of the time. that is the problem with GK , not the halabards not the nedes . Play against IG with fortitude[call it veteran tank crews] rising the points cost of tanks by 15-20 pts [vendettas still undercosted] and see how it works .
Or check how nids would work if their warriors ,raveners and MC broods could play with multi wound allocation.
Rise the tyrnant guard unit to 7-8 man give me a SL a HT or a Prime and nids will be viable again . you dont even have to give us frags.

or what would happen to nids if they got one of the old 2ed rules they had . within 2" of them tanks have to roll a +4 to be able to start shoting and hth weapons lose all their special rules [gunline , hard to stunlock , build in anti hth anti horde in to every unit] .

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

All that I'm hearing in this thread is "rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rr!". Raging Butt Hurtz Van Rental.

Grey Knights CAN be beaten! This is a silly topic and if you were present within range then I'd slap all of you in the face who says that they can't!
I play Necrons, I consistently beat Grey Knights. I play a reasonably balanced Grey Knights list and get beaten as much as I win. (it's a fluff army, proper Ordo Malleus)
Sometimes the Dice Gods beat you to the punch, you just have to man-up and accept that you've been bested. It's a fact of life.

[the jeske]

I play a reasonably balanced Grey Knights list and get beaten as much as I win.
what does that mean ? balanced . GW described nids as balanced . Or are you telling me that you dont see anything wrong with draigo wing existing[and being viable . I have no problems with a list that exists and sucks] in an edition where 1/3 of all games are kill points . If there were realy good assault armies would you also say it is ok for them to get consistent turn 1 charges ? because gunline being unstunlockable and not having to worry about sacrificing fire power to get some counter units , are just that kind of a lists .

And before you or someone else again says , that you should prepare your army for GK then I point out that you cant tailor any of the codex today to all 3 main GK builds [unless you somehow see the future and know what your opponents play] and second thing is that GK out tailor all codex we have right now save for IG.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

bal·anced/ˈbælənst/ [bal-uhnst] adjective
1. being in harmonious or proper arrangement or adjustment, proportion, etc.

I believe that's your answer.
CAPTAIN SARCASM AWAY!!!!!!

In terms of 40k, a balanced army in my opinion means something that doesn't spam any particular kind of unit.
My army has Coteaz, a Terminator Armoured Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, some Storm Troopers, a few Grey Knights, and various transports. It's varied, it's balanced. I'm not playing DRAIGOWING, which most people believe is THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY GREY KNIGHTS, YOU MUST CONFORM.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CFyOpagXM10/TX3uVGX_1sI/AAAAAAAAAVw/bjrCF7ButlU/s320/haters%2Bgonna%2Bhate%2BGK%2Bgrey%2Bknight%2Bdread knight.jpg

[Demonus]

Comparing units 1-1 between Codices is the ultimate fallacy. Different armies, different units, different roles.

It is? I thought the reason SW were considered over powered were the fact that Grey Hunters were the same cost as Marines but got a free cc weapon, and Long Fangs were undercost.

Different armies, SAME units, SAME roles.

Im not going to debate that GK are broken. They can be beaten, they have flaws, but you cannot sit there and tell me that they are not one of the best, if not the best armies in the game right now.

[Kawauso]

Another of these threads?

Okay, if you get into CC with GK and you're playing Necrons, odds are you're going to lose (though there are CC matchups there that are favourable for 'crons).

You need to shoot them more. Which you can do. I've done it easily enough with vanilla Marines, but if you listened to the internet (like it's a single entity...) then you'd know that that should have gone in the GKs favour because they rock and vanilla Marines can't do anything.

Yes, GK are a very powerful book. But they're far from the unstoppable juggernaut some people would have you believe.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

yeah... as a Grey Knight player, they are an army that is open to abuse by players... But seriously, they aren't that great, as most have said :). I'd also argue they suck balls in combat unless you give them Halberds, which in my mind is not a good thing to do for every squad.

Also... Maybe we should wait till 6th to drop, as the Daemon example for WFB gives a hint to the way things are going (i.e Daemons aren't so overpowered in 8th)

[Rapture]

IG was the most broken army ever, SW were the most broken army ever, BA, DE, Orks, Eldar, CSM and so on. Every army can't be OP, right? You guys realize that you make the same damn arguments with every flavor of the month Codex, right?
If you pay attention to what people are actually saying, you will know why the same arguments come up. The reason is the creep - not flavor of the month. Everyone goes through an adjustment period regarding new codices. There is a learning curve playing against new books. The real issue is with the creep itself. The power of the new releases should fall into line - not raise the bar. The GK codex is an especially egregious offender.

Pay attention instead of being so dismissive. Besides, you don't see thread after thread about the Necron codex do you? There is a problem with the GK codex. Even its proponents acknowledge this.



Yes, GK are a very powerful book. But they're far from the unstoppable juggernaut some people would have you believe.

Very few people claim (and I assume that even less actually believe) that any build from any codex is unbeatable. However, exploitative choices (similar to the 3 squads of Longfangs lists, as many Vendettas as possible lists, ect.) shift the balance of play in a way that is dissimilar to simply getting a bad list match-up.



We now return to your regularly scheduled crying contest.
Cute.

[eosgreen]

i havent played 40k in a few years and i think i can safely say GK are the best army atm.

but on a more serious note every wh40k forum has complaints about GK, its clearly at least the most UNDERSTOOD army.

knowing how to build an army aka a META GAME LIST leads to victory and more ppl can jump on the success badnwagon, armys that are harder to grasp may be better then people give credit for but lack the "go to list" or figured out nature GK may have

now i havent played but its the case with most games such as sc2 (a game copied off 40k) races fluxuate based on people learning how to play rather then updates to the balance. this meta game shift is the more important factor since balance is impossible in such a complex game

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

"I hate Grey Knight threads, during my cycle we threw their creators out of an airlock." - Javik on Grey Knight threads

http://i43.tinypic.com/2tb9j.png

[commissar camenzuli]

OK!!! that is it. i make a post of my opinion and get commentd like not another one of these posts. i want to say thanks. i wont be posting many more things. these kind of things are not made for you to slate me for what i say

[Chris Copeland]

OK!!! that is it. i make a post of my opinion and get commentd like not another one of these posts. i want to say thanks. i wont be posting many more things. these kind of things are not made for you to slate me for what i say


It's the Interwebz. It's not worth taking too personally. There are plenty of folk who hide behind the anonymity of the internet and feel free to be snotty and rude. I find that it's best to grow a slightly thicker skin AND always try to meet negativity with good manners and good cheer. It's amazing how those two things will drive trolls away.

Cam, I actually thought that there were some reasonable, well thought out, and articulate responses to your thread. You are far from the only 40K player who thinks that the Gray Knights Codex was poorly thought out and is unbalanced. There are some in our community who seem to have a knee jerk reaction to anyone questioning how balanced GKs are. If you post a thread questioning that balance some folk will feel that you are questioning them as gamers and feel that you are slighting them for playing GKs... even if you are doing no such thing.

So, don't stop posting and don't stop participating in the conversation... if you do then the Trolls and terrorists win. :P Cheers... Copeland

[commissar camenzuli]

thank you! i do think there was some great responses and i will keep posting. and i will fight away those trolls that you mentioned

[AnEnemy]

<Insert people vaguely complaining about GKs>

<Insert people pointing out the legitimate flaws in the GK Codex such as their undercosted wargear and upgrades.>

<Insert people yelling that GKs are not unbeatable despite no one really saying that they were unbeatable in the first place>

<Insert GK players accusing the first two groups of people of whining. Generally acting like children because they can't admit that they play the easiest army to win with in the game right now. They win because they're hardcore players with skill pouring out of every orifice and their army is the most unique version of Draigowing, Purifier spam, Coteaz spam, etc etc etc to ever hit the table top.>

Rinse. Repeat in about a week and a half.

[Chris Copeland]

<Insert people vaguely complaining about GKs>

<Insert people pointing out the legitimate flaws in the GK Codex such as their undercosted wargear and upgrades.>

<Insert people yelling that GKs are not unbeatable despite no one really saying that they were unbeatable in the first place>

<Insert GK players accusing the first two groups of people of whining. Generally acting like children because they can't admit that they play the easiest army to win with in the game right now. They win because they're hardcore players with skill pouring out of every orifice and their army is the most unique version of Draigowing, Purifier spam, Coteaz spam, etc etc etc to ever hit the table top.>

Rinse. Repeat in about a week and a half.

Best... summary... ever!!!

[Chumbalaya]

<Insert people vaguely complaining about GKs>

<Insert people pointing out the legitimate flaws in the GK Codex such as their undercosted wargear and upgrades.>

<Insert people yelling that GKs are not unbeatable despite no one really saying that they were unbeatable in the first place>

<Insert GK players accusing the first two groups of people of whining. Generally acting like children because they can't admit that they play the easiest army to win with in the game right now. They win because they're hardcore players with skill pouring out of every orifice and their army is the most unique version of Draigowing, Purifier spam, Coteaz spam, etc etc etc to ever hit the table top.>

Rinse. Repeat in about a week and a half.

Necron player here, you guys are just bad.

[Chris Copeland]

Necron player here, you guys are just bad.

?

[AnEnemy]

?

<Insert people yelling that GKs are not unbeatable despite no one really saying that they were unbeatable in the first place>

He's one of these.