More 6th Ed stuff from BoK

[ozybonza]

So Blood of Kittens have posted more 6th Ed rumours, but their site broke again so I'll post it here:

"OMG finally finally my poor little site is fixed thanks for the patience everyone! So anyway it looks like I started some rumor spilling last week as everyone in the rumor mill decided to jump in the game. I hope what I am about to post is not already outdated, but with life and the server repair I haven’t have time to keep up.

Ok, let us get ready for some fun guys 6th is about two months away so let us set up some ground rules first off.

That leaked 6th edition pdf was and is still a complete fabrication.

40k 6th edition is going to be much closer to Fantasy 8th and 40k 2nd edition than anything else.

GW still has rumor lock down in place, so these leaks are for the most part things that have been seen before from previous editions of Games Workshop games. This is to protect sources from the long arm of GW.

Ok, with that said lets get to it.

Let us start with 6th edition fluff progression.

The Imperium is fracturing and the Space Marines are starting to separate themselves from the Lords of Terra. The heretical and xenophobia has gotten to a tipping point causing many chapters to take actions against the “best wishes” of many in the Imperium.

A discovery of galactic importance has happened.

At a time before right before the Horus Heresy the Emperor had intrusted Roboute Guilliman in the protection of one Xenos race that was completely immune the temptations of Chaos and would prove the ultimate key to the destruction of Chaos. The Horus Heresy ended such plans. Fast forward today with discovery of these lost correspondences, it is believed by the Ultramarines and others that the Tau are that lost race. So now instead of being charge with their destruction the Astartes are the Tau protectors.

Rules changes

* Every unit gets a 6+ save vs. all Psychic Powers.
* Random Charge Lengths are in
* Pre-measuring is in.
* Random Battle field effects are in.
* All armies can purchase buildings for placement on the battlefield.
* Psychic powers are selected during deployment. (except Grey Knights)
* Deployment and Missions types have doubled.

Get ready for the Big one..
ALLIES ARE BACK IN

That is right allies are back in and this will be according to fluff and will have certain restrictions. So for instance Tyranids will not have any allies. Tau with all Space Marine Chapters. Necrons with Blood Angels. Imperial Guard with Space Marines. Chaos Space Marines with Demons. If it fits the fluff it will be done.

This is just to get you guys started.

Expect more to come out as we get closer to the impeding release of Warhammer 40k 6th edition.

Oh again forgot to mention in the CSM rumor post to add that Oblit options will be even more expansive with close combat load out available."


Make of it what you will.....

[DrLove42]

OK - Point by Point




That leaked 6th edition pdf was and is still a complete fabrication.

Shame. But haen't the rumours said a lot of things from it seem to be in 6th. And haven't GW already said that it was real, in house but was the designers running free, but was never going to be used


40k 6th edition is going to be much closer to Fantasy 8th and 40k 2nd edition than anything else.

Don't know what to make of this, having played neither of these



Let us start with 6th edition fluff progression.

The Imperium is fracturing and the Space Marines are starting to separate themselves from the Lords of Terra. The heretical and xenophobia has gotten to a tipping point causing many chapters to take actions against the “best wishes” of many in the Imperium.

A discovery of galactic importance has happened.

At a time before right before the Horus Heresy the Emperor had intrusted Roboute Guilliman in the protection of one Xenos race that was completely immune the temptations of Chaos and would prove the ultimate key to the destruction of Chaos. The Horus Heresy ended such plans. Fast forward today with discovery of these lost correspondences, it is believed by the Ultramarines and others that the Tau are that lost race. So now instead of being charge with their destruction the Astartes are the Tau protectors.



Wait what? Tau players will hate this cos they need "protecting". Marine players won't like it. And it goes completly against everything. If Tau are now the most important race in the Universe why aren't we getting the first codex?

And fluff wise why has it taken 10,000 years for the emperors idea to come through? And wasn't chaos supposed to be the focus of this? I call bullsh*t!



Rules changes

* Every unit gets a 6+ save vs. all Psychic Powers. - Rubbish.
* Random Charge Lengths are in - Crap
* Pre-measuring is in. - Can live with this
* Random Battle field effects are in. - OK maybe I can live with this. Depends on to which extents
* All armies can purchase buildings for placement on the battlefield. - Crap. lots of people I know don't like buildings in 40K anyway *
Psychic powers are selected during deployment. (except Grey Knights) - So MAtt Wards boys get the best of it AGAIN. If they're free maybe, but if its the random sounds bad
* Deployment and Missions types have doubled. - Good. First thing so far


A lot of this seems to be taking the tactics out and replacing it with randomness. And thats not good in my eyes. And a lot of these changes...like random assault moves are going to make assault units less good. And that means every pre-6th codex is going to need re-pointing


Get ready for the Big one..
ALLIES ARE BACK IN

That is right allies are back in and this will be according to fluff and will have certain restrictions. So for instance Tyranids will not have any allies. Tau with all Space Marine Chapters. Necrons with Blood Angels. Imperial Guard with Space Marines. Chaos Space Marines with Demons. If it fits the fluff it will be done.



More crap. Screw the Nids more. This stupid Tau thing again. And it was believable until you said "Necrons and Blood Angels".

WHO LET MATT WARD WRITE THE SODDING RULE BOOK


Oh again forgot to mention in the CSM rumor post to add that Oblit options will be even mor expansive with close combat load out available."


OK, seems fair.

Overall - If this is true a lot of it is sh**. If not, its just ful of sh**. Either way.....sh**

[SonicPara]

Space Marines and Tau, my first and newest armies, being buddy buddy and playable together?

http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/images/1310650820313.jpg

[fuzzbuket]

Tau with all Space Marine Chapters. Necrons with Blood Angels. .

NO,

i love tau marine conversions and IG-> tau conversions but really......... this will lead to 12 yr olds with guillarman, some battlesuits and some tacs and a hammerhead, no

necrons with blood angels............

anyone up for a kill (bill) matt ward? :L (i kid i kid but really)

i do like the idea of buildings, well not buildings as such but 'drop bunkers' aka thingS grown/deployed from space ships!

[Tooze]

I really hope that is wrong... I'm all for storyline progression in 40k but marines allied with and protecting the tau? Terrible

[DrLove42]

I'm not buying another model now until after the rulebook emerges.

And then we'll have to decide if we're playing 6th or continuning to play 5th

I don't like aliies. It alows you to supplement the weakness of one codex with another, and that largely defeats a lot of the point in the game. PLus it benefits some armies more than others (codex marines get 7 allies (BA, DA, GK, BT, SW, Guard and Tau apparantly) wheras Nids get none. Hell if BA can side with Necrons (Sure put the worst piece of fluff in existance into the rules why not!), they get 8 potential allies!

[eldargal]

More like 2nd? So it is going to be a RPG/skirmish hybrid completely usuited to large scale games and vehicles. Yes that makes perfect sense, GW don't want to sell lots of models and vehicles afterall, it happened by accident.:rolleyes:

Everything about these rumours scream utter nonsense, either the source is lying, delusional, has been lied to or GW has gone completely insane and have decided they no longer want their flagship game system to do well.

The no allies thing for Tyranids is also nonsensical in the context of 8th edition changes. 8th edition gives levels of trust between allies, and no army has no allies even those that simply would not ally like Warriors/Daemons of Chaos. GW just doesn't go in for 'every army can do this EXCEPT YOU', for obvious reasons. It simply isn't fair. It is the same reason the Storm of Magic rules allow high elves to summon daemon allies, because it simply wouldn't be fair to exclude them even though it makes little sense fluff-wise.

The thing with Necrons and Blood Angels is also moronic, and based on the over simplistic reading of the fluff that says theBA and Necrons somehow get along as opposed to being unwilling to sacrifice their broader plans to enter a conflict neither side is guaranteed to win. They weren't stupid, in other words. Which is a radical departure from previous Necron fluff so I can forgive that. But the idea that GW would enshrine this misunderstanding of th background is simply non-credible.

On the brightside, now less worried about 6th as I think Tastywhatsit has been trolling us or has gone insane.:)

[Father]

Has to be a troll.

Please let it be a troll.

I find it hilarious to think that in a game already dominated by shooting armies, assault armies are going to get even worse, thanks to random charge lengths.

No, this has got to be a troll. GW can't possibly be that stupid, can they?

[Scion_of_Terra]

This is some excellent trolling. It's so ridiculous it's impossible to believe, yet the simple thought of any of this nonsense being true is enough to give one nightmares for the next few months.

But seriously? Ultramarines protecting the Tau? Necrons and Blood Angels officially BFF? And Emperor help us, random charges and terrain effects? If this turns out to be true, I will drop 40k.

[Defenestratus]

These "rumors" are a complete sham and not worth the electrons they were used to transport to my phones screen.

[Wildcard]

Hmm, unless the "Random charge lenght" means something along the lines the "leaked 6th" had:

By random this would mean that:
- Units that charge 12" cannot do something else (shoot for example)
- Units that charge 6" can do something else (like shoot first)

- This would be negated by the assault weapon / Pistol / relentless rules, leaving rapidfire and heavy (and possibly some new weapon type) to be able to only charge 6" after firing.

Even tho i know "random" usually means x-amount of D6 to determine stuff in 40k TT, that would be the only way i can come up with that wouldn't f*ck up the game totally for assault units..

Eldar units (and orks with waaagh) for example would have 6+d6+d6 as their charge range, i bet that players would love the challenge to overcome bad rolls to win :) ..I mean, i like random, but 8"-18" between the range units can assault is alot. Thats 60" worth of random move between luckiest and unluckiest player on an average 6-turn game :)

/EDIT

Oh, and about the allies. I wonder what allies and based on what situations / fluff would IG or GK/Inquisitors be able to strike a deal :)

GK: Could they be allied to any other force save for the demonically tainted? Or to remain the most purest force - no change to ally at all?
- GK strike force strikes a deal with tyranid mastermind (or whatever it was called) to strike down the demons at "Sector X", both factions benefit, 'cos the nids agree that chaos tainted stuff tastes bad and gives 'em gasses..

Inquisitors:
-Malleus: Forgot what these guys loath
-Hereticus: Funny team up with chaos tainted traitor guard
-Xenos: Funny team up with orks
- Point being, each inquisitorial force hunts for one particular enemytype, and more often than not are willing to coop with the operatives of the enemy other than what they are hunting. This would leave to a situation where each and every inquisitor would have its own set of rules against all possible matchups :) ..And what if player took two different Inquisitors knocking out the possibility for any allies :P

IG: Command squads teamed up with (rumoured) bs4 S5 AP5 30" rapidfire Firewarriors on a 4+ save (talking about improved guardsmen platoon). Oh, and you dont feel sentinels provide enough firepower? Well, take a couple of suit squads, that ought to solve the problem..

The team ups would be really troubling, and even the slightest overlook at some point would leave to absurd combos (6 squads of purifiers backed up by 9 leman russes and 9 Vendettas)

EDIT/

[Mr.Pickelz]

The problem with GK's being allies with anyone, is that they tend to backstab who ever they work with... just sayin. There is fluff supporting Eldar and GK's working together, and obvious Inquistors and IG together again makes sense.

[Wildcard]

Hmm, you call Exterminatus backstabbin.. I tend to call it a solution..

just saying ;)

[Kawauso]

I dunno what to think of these rumours.

The fluff sounds silly. I just can't see SM as a whole deciding Tau need protection. Like, what, even the Black Templar? Yeah right.

The whole ally thing sounds ludicrous, especially since Tyranids get no one. Why should armies be allowed to mix with other armies (thus shoring up inbuilt weaknesses) except for one of the weakest books in 5th edition right now?

Also, the rumours for psychic powers in 6th keep getting weirder every time something comes up. No idea what to think on them any more.

Oh, and if random charge distances enter the game, part of me will want to die. Especially if pre-measuring is introduced. Why should part of the game get less random (when it probably should) only to have a more crippling form of randomness thrown on top? I just...dice inherently add a good deal of randomness to the game. I can't stand the idea of not knowing whether or not a charge could be made, even over flat ground. Difficult terrain is one thing but...every assault being a random distance just sounds sucky. Anyone who's played WFB 8th have input on this?

[fuzzbuket]

lets look at all the PROPER* allies in the fluff

gk+ ig, then most of the time the IG are then shot
GK+sm , with the mariens all being mind wiped, removing all previous combat expertiese
GK+WH, with the WH either being shot or mind wiped
GK+eldar, with each side fighting after the battle
GK+ harlequins, with the harlquins running off at the end

sm+ig
WH+sm
IG+wh, with the IG being shot often due to taint possibility
eldar+dark eldar (very occasionally)


and ehm, thats it....
i think the only time allies should ever be used is like the old DH/WH with some SM/IG units being included in the army list...
-fuzz

*not counting ward

[eldargal]

Well teh fluff stuff is also contradictory. 'Xenophobia etc is reaching a tipping point but everyone is trying to protect the Tau and the BA work with Necrons and...'. The reason it sounds silly is it is fanfiction nonsense.

As I've said, this seems like a 40k fanboy with a vague idea of how WFB works putting things together and coming up with bullsh*t. WFB and 40k have always been radically different rulesets, they aren't going to suddenly make them very similar and they aren't going to turn back the clock and turn 40k into a skirmish game again, which is what 2nd edition was. The whole reason 3rd was so diffeent to 2nd was to make it into a wargame you could play large armies with. Large armies means more sales, and GW are abotu selling models first and rules second as they freely admit.

[Capn Stoogey]

This sounds the most unlikely so far. Massive changes to fluff that don't really make sense? I'm especially not liking the random charges, random crap is just plain annoying, please don't let it be true!

[DrLove42]

Grant - the newest rumour provider- has posted this in comment to these rumour on Faeit 212


I have to say that I am surprised that this stuff has been leaking so quickly and accurately.

All that tastey taste has stated is infact true. Along with the blos leak a few days ago that is also true.

I know all of these rumors sound bloody ridiculous but they may not be bad for the game at all. I have been chatting with the source for my documents, we'll just call him "the commissioner", we both feel that based off of the csm codex that assaults off of consolodation will be back as well as possibly off the bloody deep strike. This is not only backed up by the fact that they are "nerfing" assault range, but also because of 2 special rules.

Mates say hello to bloody "snap fire" and the return of overwatch.

Snap fire - allows a unit to shoot at an attacking unit at bs 1 prior to being assaulted.

Mates, be ready for some proper changes. The game will no longer be what it is now. It is much more in depth. A lot more charts and usr's... The chaos dex is over flowing with them.

Be ready for changes mates, but have an open mind. GW isn't going to kill their brand.

Will this new rule set kill the tournament scene? I cannot be sure yet, only time will tell.

Cheers,
Grant


SO it gets worse! I kinda understand the concept of "snap fire" and firing off the charge. But why as BS1? So an Ork has the same chance of hitting as a highly disciplined Marine?

Assaulting off deepstriking? What? Deamons become horrible, and its just YET ANOTHER boost to GK's! And to DA Deathwing if Ward is writing that

However hes also reporting;


Rhino's have 3 hull points, Landraiders and the defiler have 4. Any damage chart result other than wrecked or explodes will take 1 hull point away.

HQ's can now challenge each other just like in fantasy. This must be accepted by opponent or is played normal. HQ that wins, wins the assault for his unit.

Chaos units that kill a unit get to roll on a chart for gifts from a chaos lord very similar to the power from pain rule that Phil gave to DE.

Thousand sons are still relentless and still have ap 3 bolters.


HQ units can challenge? ANd if they win they win the combat? So I could charge a unit of 30 boyz and a warboss, into a unit with an IC. If I lose all 30 boys for no kills except for their IC i still win? Bull****!

And landraiders are 1 hull point more durable than a Rhino! Seriously...if this stuff is true...**** you GW. I'm out

[Ten Ghosts]

Well teh fluff stuff is also contradictory. 'Xenophobia etc is reaching a tipping point but everyone is trying to protect the Tau and the BA work with Necrons and...'. The reason it sounds silly is it is fanfiction nonsense.


See the problem with this is that the Tau are actually respected by the Astartes. In numerous stories and novels since the release of "Firewarrior", various Astartes have given their opinion that the Tau are respected and honorable warriors. In 40K Fluff Marneus Calgar even has a soft spot for the Tau, having fought with and then joining forces when the Necron turn up. He has also reigned in Sicarius when he was driving them out of contested space.
GW have been wondering what to do with the Tau since their release, and being the Anti Chaos force in the galaxy fits them nicely. Eldrad even predicted that the Tau would eventually even exceed the Eldar's many achievements.
If you read a lot of the 30K stories, you can see that the Emperor was trying to deal with the Chaos gods, If it was evident that by protecting this Xeno race that would eventually destroy Chaos, then i could see this happening if you look at the wider picture.
The Imperium is collapsing as we all already know, but if GW want to push onwards, it has to break through the M42 barrier in order to progress the story, the background and the hobby. It has to do this because otherwise the hobby will stagnate, theirs only so many times you can go back in the timeline and this isnt Star Wars after all.

As to Matt Ward and his Necrons and Blood Angels alliance, it kind of fits.... if you go with his necron fluff.

[Chuck777]

Wait, Ultramarines and Tau are buddies now!? What!? This is a huuuuuuuuge change to the fluff! So now the grim dark future is completely xenophobic except to little blue men with death lasers? What!?





The no allies thing for Tyranids is also nonsensical in the context of 8th edition changes. 8th edition gives levels of trust between allies, and no army has no allies even those that simply would not ally like Warriors/Daemons of Chaos. GW just doesn't go in for 'every army can do this EXCEPT YOU', for obvious reasons. It simply isn't fair. It is the same reason the Storm of Magic rules allow high elves to summon daemon allies, because it simply wouldn't be fair to exclude them even though it makes little sense fluff-wise.


Except, who would ally with a species whose entire goal in life is to devour everything, a species that you can never have a treaty with, a species that will never ally with anyone even if it is in it's best interest.

Tyranids should be screwed because that's the way the fluff was written. :(

This is also probably why Necrons' fluff was adjusted, so as to avoid this problem.

[Kawauso]

SO it gets worse! I kinda understand the concept of "snap fire" and firing off the charge. But why as BS1? So an Ork has the same chance of hitting as a highly disciplined Marine?
It's probably got something to do with the pressure of trying to pop shots off while some crazy assault unit is barreling down on you - but I agree that it sounds silly if Marines and Orks have the same chance of hitting their targets, even under duress.



Assaulting off deepstriking? What? Deamons become horrible, and its just YET ANOTHER boost to GK's!
This might not be so bad if the rumoured changes to DS rules from before are true - no scatter outside a certain distance from enemy units, more scatter the closer you are, etc.



HQ units can challenge? ANd if they win they win the combat? So I could charge a unit of 30 boyz and a warboss, into a unit with an IC. If I lose all 30 boys for no kills except for their IC i still win? Bull****!

And landraiders are 1 hull point more durable than a Rhino! Seriously...if this stuff is true...**** you GW. I'm out

Whoa now, calm down - the thing about challenges says they have to be accepted. So...you don't have to accept a challenge that's issued if you think the risk isn't worth it. Challenges are one thing from Fantasy I wouldn't mind coming over to 40k, actually.

As for the Land Raider having 1 more Hull Point than a Rhino (if Hull Points turn out to be true); chill. It also has 3 more armour, remember. Just glancing a Land Raider can be pretty tough at times.

[DrLove42]

Im chilling. I still think a lot of it really bad, and i dont think il enjoy it as much But im calming down a bi

Hull points give all vehicles a life span. They can only take a certain amount of hits. Itl mean muætiple lower strength shots will be more effective against vehicles. But only if the damage table is unchanged.vAnd if ita unchanged....a standard Necron squad will probably be able to kill any given vehicle

And declining a challenga land raider.e will likely be like in fantasy, and your hero hides, cant attack while the enemy one can and therefore you got a good chance of losing the combat anyway

[isotope99]

I'd make it that he can fight if challenge declined but can't direct any attacks at the HQ only the unit. I'd also let you challenge squad sergeants to reduce the impact of hidden power fists/klaws ID'ing HQ.

[Brusilov]

I'll have to agree with Eldargal. Either the author of these rumours is delusional or he has been lied to or, even worse, he's making this stuff up. For me, this is not only wishlisting but blatent misinformation...

[MajorWesJanson]

I can't remember BoK having a good reputation for rumors. What have they gotten right in the past?

[energongoodie]

I used to love playing allied armies. Space Wolves and Eldar was my army of choice.
This will be fun....if true.

[DarkLink]

This was posted by TasteyTaste on Blood of Kittens, right? Then it's not made up. It's possible GW's sent lies down the chain or something, but that doesn't seem very likely to me.


Psychic powers are selected during deployment. (except Grey Knights) - So MAtt Wards boys get the best of it AGAIN. If they're free maybe, but if its the random sounds bad

Actually, if you get to pick and choose psychic powers beforehand, that's bad for GKs. GKs you have to pay to bring your powers, and you're stuck with what you've got. Everyone else gets to tailor their powers to their opponent.


Well teh fluff stuff is also contradictory. 'Xenophobia etc is reaching a tipping point but everyone is trying to protect the Tau and the BA work with Necrons and...'. The reason it sounds silly is it is fanfiction nonsense.


I couldn't tell if the Space Marines or the Lords of Terra were getting xenophobic either.

[Bracchus]

Allies? No thanks! I don't give a **** that it fits the fluff for certain forces to intermingle but the game balance goes right out the window when people can pick the best stuff from 2 codecies and not having to manage the weaknesses. Hope this is bull****!

[DrLove42]

I agree in that allies just throw any balence out. I wouldnt be suprised if comps disallowed it

I hope its something like if taking an ally you must take minimum of 1 HQ and 2 troops from each. Or the first army must take 1 unit in each slot before anything from the 2nd. Or if you ally you can only take certain units (not given full choice of the codex entries - eg a tau ally you could take firewarriors and crisis suits, but not broadsides)

[daboarder]

Thats it, I don't believe these but if they are true then I'm done with this game and this bull**** company

[ozybonza]

I can't remember BoK having a good reputation for rumors. What have they gotten right in the past?

Just about the entire GK codex, prior to the leaked PDF. Same with Necrons.

[DarkLink]

Sisters of Battle, too. I've met TasteyTaste in real life, and talked with him on a few occasions, and not only is he a cool guy but I found out a lot of things that were going to be in the Sisters codex a while before it came out.



I found this on BoK's comments, as well, but the link to the source is broken:


Y’know, I’ve got similar sources as Tasty, and here’s things they’ve told me…
- Now this Emporor rumour (God there are so many) is very interesting. Here’s the gist: The Emperor does die (physically, anyway). As prophesizeed all the way back in 1st ed (WWWAAAGGGHHH the Orks!!!! supplement), the Waaaggghhh!!! comes sweeping through human space and threatens to engulf Earth. En route, they overrun the Crimson Fists’ homeworld, and the destruction of that oft- destroyed chapter finally becomes canon. In order to save Earth, they Emperor vacates his mortal shell for good and contests directly with Mork and Gork in the warp. One of the Ork Gods is destroyed in the psychic conflict, the Waaaggghhh! is broken, and IG amd marines sweep the demoralized greenskins back to the borders of huma space. Who remains as sole deity of the Orks? The Orks aren’t sure. A religious schism fractures the entire race, dissolving the previous clan allegiances. Instead of clans, all Orks everywhere are either Gorkers or Morkers.
Exciting stuff, eh?

[daboarder]

WHAT!!!! WHAT!!!!

I don't even......

WHAT!!!!

[DrBored]

I think the biggest contradiction here is that GW is supposed to be having a huge rumor lockdown.. yet we already have all these details about 6th and Chaos? Doesn't quite fit.

But, this news about allies makes sense if Chaos are supposed to have Traitor Guard. Also, if you have a way to take Basilisks, Iron Warriors just got a lot more feasible.

Like most, I'm not eager for random assault ranges or assault from deep strike. It's really going to change the way assault works, and whether it's actually balanced or not is yet to be seen.

I'm ok with this 'snap shot' rule. Firing a few shots with a special weapon, even at BS 1, may mean the difference between winning or losing an assault.

Overwatch isn't exciting. Depending on how it's written it could put a big nerf on things that make strafing runs, and certainly on mid-range shooting squads that have to move closer to the target to get a shot off. A squad you're depending on to get the job done suddenly taken out of commission by enemy firing on YOUR TURN. Granted, the advantage for you is that if you don't move in their Overwatch range, the enemy loses a turn of firing. Very much a game of cat and mouse, and one that, honestly, I'd rather not play.

Premeasuring... *sigh*... I'm not really sure if I'm ok with this rule. I've seen it played in Fantasy. It does take a bit of the randomness out of something when you can confirm whether you're in range or not. It's going to make armies like Dark Eldar that are very fast much more deadly, since they can measure out exactly how far you can reach and maneuver around that range, denying you a lot of shots. Again, it turns the game into more of a cat and mouse game.

Bleh... I guess we'll just have to see how things continue to develop. The rest of the rules will shape the game, but it's clear that they're throwing in rules that require a little more strategy, potentially to differentiate themselves from things like Warmachine where the whole premise of the game is to charge forward and bash thing still they're dead, and play it like annihilation every game.

Remember one of the biggest differences that hasn't been mentioned between Fantasy and 40k... In Fantasy, every squad moves via movement trays, but 40k still has open movement and free range of direction. That alone could be enough to keep the games very different.

As for the fluff changes... I don't buy it. Just a little too much fanboy in there.

[DarkLink]

I think the biggest contradiction here is that GW is supposed to be having a huge rumor lockdown.. yet we already have all these details about 6th and Chaos? Doesn't quite fit.

He actually specifically mentions that he's holding back certain things because of this. He says that he's only mentioned rumors similar to other things GW's done in 40k and Fantasy previously.




The combination of overwatch and assaulting from deepstrike might be like the fake 6th ed leak, which is a good thing. It basically just makes the game move more quickly. Now you deepstrike in, get shot next turn, then assault the turn after that. This rule would consolidate that all into one phase, making the game go that much more quickly.

Random charge distance is stupid. Random difficult terrain is stupid as it is, they should be reducing the amount of random movement, not increasing it.

Premeasuring is fine. The ability to gauge distance doesn't really add anything to the game, but the tactical requirements of adding up threat ranges does. Premeasuring puts more emphasis on the actual tactics and less on a random and arbitrary skill that not everyone has.



they're throwing in rules that require a little more strategy, potentially to differentiate themselves from things like Warmachine where the whole premise of the game is to charge forward and bash thing still they're dead, and play it like annihilation every game.

WTF? Did you just say that Warmachine doesn't have any strategy and it's just about bashing stuff till it's dead? Have you ever actually played Warmachine against anyone who even has the slightest clue what they're doing? Warmachine is the sort of game where you could agonize over the placement of every single model to the nearest millimeter for a half hour, except in tournaments you usually have timed turns so it's like playing speed chess, just with dice.

Unless they knock 6th ed out of left field, Warmachine is going to remain a more strategic and tactical game that 40k is.

[Father]

My ears are bleeding from the stupid. This can't be real.

[DrBored]

He actually specifically mentions that he's holding back certain things because of this. He says that he's only mentioned rumors similar to other things GW's done in 40k and Fantasy previously.

The combination of overwatch and assaulting from deepstrike might be like the fake 6th ed leak, which is a good thing. It basically just makes the game move more quickly. Now you deepstrike in, get shot next turn, then assault the turn after that. This rule would consolidate that all into one phase, making the game go that much more quickly.

Yes and no. The same time is going to be used up in the rolling of dice and designating what is going into overwatch and what is shooting now. They're just shuffling it around, which makes things a little more complicated. Not a whole lot more (overwatch markers, etc) but enough that I don't think it's going to speed things up.

Also, it's just as likely he's 'holding back on things' because he doesn't really know what they are :3


WTF? Did you just say that Warmachine doesn't have any strategy and it's just about bashing stuff till it's dead? Have you ever actually played Warmachine against anyone who even has the slightest clue what they're doing? Warmachine is the sort of game where you could agonize over the placement of every single model to the nearest millimeter for a half hour, except in tournaments you usually have timed turns so it's like playing speed chess, just with dice.

Unless they knock 6th ed out of left field, Warmachine is going to remain a more strategic and tactical game that 40k is.

I agree on the rest of the stuff, but I have played Warmachine for about a year now, and I've watched casual and tournament games for longer. I don't see any extra strategy here. It's not like chess, it's like Rock Paper Scissors. Cryx beats Khador, Khador beats everything else, and everyone else just complains about how busted Cryx is. Sure, you can deliberate over a millimeter, but you can do that in 40k too. 40k may seem simplified, but the reality is that instead of making larger armies, Warmachine condenses a bunch of powers and USR's into fewer units, and at the end of the day, whoever brings the best assassin/sniper/warcaster-hunter wins.

I won't say any more on Warmachine though, this isn't the topic for it. Everyone has their opinions. I'm sure that Warmachine may be more complicated for others and 40k may be simpler for others, but for me it's the reverse. I respect that you and others have your opinions about Warmachine, but I for one *enjoy* Warhammer 40k by a much greater degree, and at the end of the day, that's what matters to me.

[PhatCat]

Hard to avoid overreacting, but this all sounds awful. If 40k ends up anything like this at all, I'm done, period. This is garbage. And if Tasty is lying for a prank, he's a world class d-bag.

[Kawauso]

I agree it's hard to avoid overreacting.

But rumours are rumours, and we get things piecemeal, devoid of full context, with misinformation mixed in.

It's hard not to have a knee-jerk reaction to some stuff, but remember all the things about Necrons, Sisters and GK that we heard before those came out, and how much stuff was either untrue or turned out quite different than we would have at first believed.

Whether a rumour makes you happy or sad, just take a deep breath and remember eventually we'll know the whole story, and have plenty of time to digest it...

And it'll probably be okay. :)

[eldargal]

Not really. Even the best rumourmongers can get things wrong. Now either TastyTaste is lying, has been lied to or GW have decided that staying in business is for losers. I have mroe faith in Gws survival instincts as a business, and their conservative attitude to advancing the timline or being too radical with teh rules than I do any rumourmonger.

I don't like calling people dishonest without evidence, so I think the most likely thing is that he is being lied to by his sources.

This was posted by TasteyTaste on Blood of Kittens, right? Then it's not made up. It's possible GW's sent lies down the chain or something, but that doesn't seem very likely to me.

[Brusilov]

Indeed, maybe he has been lied to but honestly those rumours are nothing more than a copy/paste of Fantasy 8th rules plastered onto the 40k ruleset. The more things go, the less I trust rumourmongers... With the exception of Beasts of War, which seems to have a consistent track record so far...

Add to this the fact that the fluff changes make no sense whatsoever, I highly doubt any of these rumours are legit...

[eldargal]

Also, this:

Y’know, I’ve got similar sources as Tasty, and here’s things they’ve told me…
- Now this Emporor rumour (God there are so many) is very interesting. Here’s the gist: The Emperor does die (physically, anyway). As prophesizeed all the way back in 1st ed (WWWAAAGGGHHH the Orks!!!! supplement), the Waaaggghhh!!! comes sweeping through human space and threatens to engulf Earth. En route, they overrun the Crimson Fists’ homeworld, and the destruction of that oft- destroyed chapter finally becomes canon. In order to save Earth, they Emperor vacates his mortal shell for good and contests directly with Mork and Gork in the warp. One of the Ork Gods is destroyed in the psychic conflict, the Waaaggghhh! is broken, and IG amd marines sweep the demoralized greenskins back to the borders of huma space. Who remains as sole deity of the Orks? The Orks aren’t sure. A religious schism fractures the entire race, dissolving the previous clan allegiances. Instead of clans, all Orks everywhere are either Gorkers or Morkers.
Exciting stuff, eh?
Was first posted on Warseer by Lexington (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?329875-Official-WarSeer-Warhammer-40-000-6th-Edition-discussion-thread/page16&p=6210812#post6210812), who took very old rumours from pre-3rd edition and brought them up again now. Point being every edition is preceded by these kinds of rumours of radical change and they are always wrong.

So I maintain what I've already said, TastyTaste is either lying, delusional or being lied to or GW has gone completely insane and no longer want to sell models. My money is on TastyTaste being lied to as he has been accurate in the past.

[DrLove42]

I agree and maintakn hope that these are fake.

Although i feel like im wanting 6th ed soon more now, not cos Im looking forward to playing it, but to hopefully prove these wrong

[Deadlift]

Shoot me down in flames if you like but I like some of the rumours, especially the Tau being the "good guy xeno race" I have always seen the Tau as the good guys anyway, even over the imperials with their much more harmonius approach to other species and the greater good. Maybe that's why we have waited so long to see their new codex and why it will come after 6th. As for allies too, well as a bit of a hobby butterfly that's great news for me and no different than apoc really just on a smaller scale.

[eldargal]

I have little problem with Allies, what I have a problem with is how the ally system is portrayed in these rumours. It is like someone who had no idea how they were managed in WFB 8th wrote it. I do have soem concerns bout picking units which help compensate for your armies weaknesses but that can be remedied.

I don't like Taue being 'good' though. They aren't, they are out for their own self interest just like everyone else. Changing that completely throws away twenty five years of background which says there are no 'good' guys, just everyone trying to survive in a stagnant/entropic galaxy

[Havik110]

More like 2nd?


Im thinking more for movements (every model has its own M) and the old pscher phase...

CC would take way too long....

I think tasty is off on these and i hope the tau thing is off...

[DrLove42]

See the Tau being good is a wierd one.

The first Tau book was slated for being too good guy and not dark enough so the ethereals and possibe mind control was introduced

But using the Tau to fight Chaos is in my Craftworld, Sept and even Kabals fluff as my way to explain them working together.

Wha irks me is the idea they are protected by marines, let alone need protecting.

Maybe the fracturing imperium is being put in the fluff to justify the fact 50% of games are marines vs marines

[Belial69]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this or how canonical Firewarrior is considered, but the Smurfs and the Snorks work together in that. Admittedly that much chaos woulld make anyone work together. But also, and correct me if I'm mistaken, wasn't Kais being influenced by Khorne for the duration of that? So tau must be able to be at least influenced by chaos? Surely if there is a race that can't be currupted it would either be nids or 'crons? Just my random thoughts.

[DrLove42]

Tau are incorruptable as they have no warp presence so chaos csnt even see them.

As for the canonicity of Fire Warrior a single fire warrior kills untold chaos marines. Its 100% not

[eldargal]

The video games and other licensed products are not canonical unless something gets mentioned in another source. For example, Blood Ravens are a canonical chapter now as they were mentiond somewhere or other by GW. The general gist of the games may be considered canonical (campaigns on Kaurava and the Aurelia sector or whatever) but not specific events or even characters unless named specifically in a GW publication. The tie-in novels are even more problematic because despite being by Black Library they have been retconned by the video games, so you have what could be 'canon' mention of non-canon sources being retconned by the sources upon which the canon-novels are based.:p

[Father]

As it stands, I don't know who this game would please.

Not the competitive gamer, because all the randomness being introduced just flies in the face of having skill being the main determining factor of victory.

Not the casual gamer, cause percentage-based list creation and Allies allows for even more min-maxing. You thought Razorspam was bad? Just wait till you start seeing Assault Terminators charging poeple on turn 1 after having been ferried by Vendettas...

[krittoris]

well nids can have llies. because they can mind control any organic sentient species.


i think the fluff ties in with the 5th ed stroyline, near the end it tells of how the space marines look to there own borders and have to defend there own areas of the imperium rather then the imperium as a whole. due to the fading light of the astronicum and the ever growing wars and threats to the imperium (ultramarines with ultramar E.G)

and other more xenophobic space mariens would still try to purge tau.

it is a long shotted far fetched storyline BUT if it is, it is probably put into better context than it is described on BOK.

[DrLove42]

See allies xan be a broad term. For instance the Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar can "ally" with Orks. Theres lots of occassions in the fluff where they use them to do the heavy lifting and distractions for their plans

Maybe DE could ally with Nids, them using the Nids as their beasts to wreck and cause pain to boost the DE offensive

[isotope99]

Allies seems highly unlikely to me, 5th has significantly expanded the unit range in its codices and the armies most dependent on allies (witchhunters, daemonhunters) have had them removed. Then there is the balance issue (imperial gun line with daemon shock troops anyone?) and extra rules about how the two armies can interact.

I'll join in on no random charge distances, the consequences of a failed charge are more significant (IMHO) in 40k than fantasy and fleet/run/terrain already gives enough random movement effects.

Psychic powers randomised at deployment doesn't sound good but chosen at deployment sounds more fun with greater opportunity to use some of the less common general purpose ones (suspect eldar will stop paying for them individually in next codex).

Fluff-wise I like the space marines deciding they are above imperial law and acting more autonomously but cuddly tau flies in the face of the 'everyone hates everyone' basic rationale for battles and the established xenophobia of the imperium. Don't expect the emperor to change much.

Randomised terrain effects might be OK if not too extreme and revealed after choosing table edges but before deployment.

[The Bigyin]

40k 6th edition is going to be much closer to Fantasy 8th and 40k 2nd edition than anything else.

If anyone read the UK WD of the release of 5th edition its games designers quite clearly state 2nd edition is far to clumsy to operate for large scale games, then even say its better suited to necromunda. I find this highly unlikley



The Imperium is fracturing and the Space Marines are starting to separate themselves from the Lords of Terra. The heretical and xenophobia has gotten to a tipping point causing many chapters to take actions against the “best wishes” of many in the Imperium.

A discovery of galactic importance has happened.

At a time before right before the Horus Heresy the Emperor had intrusted Roboute Guilliman in the protection of one Xenos race that was completely immune the temptations of Chaos and would prove the ultimate key to the destruction of Chaos. The Horus Heresy ended such plans. Fast forward today with discovery of these lost correspondences, it is believed by the Ultramarines and others that the Tau are that lost race. So now instead of being charge with their destruction the Astartes are the Tau protectors.

Reading interviews with BL authors who have planned several novels in advance now, nothing of this had been mentioned for HH (check dan abnetts blog, i believe ADB also mentioned in an interview he could not see the cannon going beyond the 41st millenium as the games we play are set in the end time) Id have though people who have meetings with the powers that control the IP would have slipped on changes this radical.

I suspect at worst the BoK stuff is fabricated, possibly the Bokkers are being lied to by some lowly GW peasant, or possibly GW is deliberatley leaving false information to cause more interest in the release.

[DarkLink]

It's not fabricated. How many frikin times do I have to say that I know TasteyTaste in real life, and I very much doubt he'd be the sort of person to lie about this stuff. It's possible that it's a fake leak from GW, but why are people always such dicks to the people handing out rumors? "Durrr, I don't like the sound of that so I think this jerk's a liar." TasteyTaste isn't always right. Part of it is because he sees some things mid-production as opposed to the final project, and so things get changed before they go to print. But overall, he has a pretty good track record, and in real life he's a cool guy.

Stop taking this stuff so seriously and stop insulting the source just because you don't like the sound of the rumors. Chill out, people.



Not the casual gamer, cause percentage-based list creation and Allies allows for even more min-maxing. You thought Razorspam was bad? Just wait till you start seeing Assault Terminators charging poeple on turn 1 after having been ferried by Vendettas...

Assuming that's how the Ally rules even work. And, of course, not only can Vendettas not transport Terminators (explicitly FAQ'd because you used to be able to ally Grey Knights to the IG codex) but Vendettas aren't assault vehicles making that first turn charge pretty difficult to pull off.



Edit:
Tau have always been on the "good" half of 40k, along with Eldar and the Space Marines, which is to say they're not as bad as 'nidz or chaos. I don't think these rumors really change that. They don't make Tau any more good-er, per se, they just make them a valuable tool being manipulated by more powerful forces, which I think fits the setting pretty well.

[Kawauso]

Just wait till you start seeing Assault Terminators charging poeple on turn 1 after having been ferried by Vendettas...

Stormravens are much better for that than Vendettas.

[HsojVvad]

I agree with Darklink a few personal attacks on a persons character for just about a rumour? Like come on people I thought you guys and gals were above this sort of thing. It's a rumour. A rumour could be true or not. So to attack someone just because he wants to share something? Sheesh.

I am surprised reading about "allies". I thought GW wanted to take it out, hence why we have the WH PDF codex. So why bring them back? Also Tyranids can have allies. How about as someone did on the interent, Have an Ork character trying to domesticate some Tyranids, or another about how the Tyranids took to care for some Kroot because of how some pheromones were sprayed on them to some sort. So I could see Tyranids having allies as well, just like Eldar Gal said, to "be fair".

But I don't think this is the case and will be surprised if it is.

[Chuck777]

I have little problem with Allies, what I have a problem with is how the ally system is portrayed in these rumours. It is like someone who had no idea how they were managed in WFB 8th wrote it. I do have soem concerns bout picking units which help compensate for your armies weaknesses but that can be remedied.

The old ally rules had the same issues - Imperials had a plethora of possible ally choices (including Tau and Eldar usually) while armies like Nids and Crons were left to only ally with their own kind. The fluff of 40k is very different than fantasy. In the latter, any one can conceivable ally with anyone else because everyone is a sentient race that understands temporary alliance to beat a common threat is almost always preferable to death. But in 40k, that doesn't happen. You, a Commissar, cannot beseech a Norn Queen to ally with you against the Eldar because a) Nids are ALWAYS the greater threat and b) the Nids don't care about your petty politics. Not allying with one another is just a fact of life in the grim dark future. I am a nid player and this fact does not bother me.


I don't like Taue being 'good' though. They aren't, they are out for their own self interest just like everyone else. Changing that completely throws away twenty five years of background which says there are no 'good' guys, just everyone trying to survive in a stagnant/entropic galaxy

Just because the Ultramarines are protecting you and you may hold the key to defeating Chaos does not mean you are suddenly the good guy. You are now a tool the Imperium will use to defeat Chaos, nothing more, nothing less. Just because the Ultramarines protect you, does not mean you do not want to convert their entire species over to the Greater Good. They are still heathens who worship a false god, they still walk the wrong path, it is still your duty to bring them into the light and show them the Ethereal's path to righteousness is the correct path for every sentient in the galaxy.

[Father]

Assuming that's how the Ally rules even work. And, of course, not only can Vendettas not transport Terminators (explicitly FAQ'd because you used to be able to ally Grey Knights to the IG codex) but Vendettas aren't assault vehicles making that first turn charge pretty difficult to pull off.

1) No mention of Terminators being dissallowed to mount Vendettas in the current FAQ. If that was the case in past versions of the FAQ, they removed it since.
2) With a 24 inch Scout move, 2 inch disembark, 1.5 inch base, 6 inch move and 6 inch assault, there's nothing hard about pulling off a first turn assault as long as you go first.


Stormravens are much better for that than Vendettas.

Storm Ravens are also 70 pts more expensive each. And they can't pull off first turn assault unless your opponent lets you.

[Lightcavalier]

Just a thought:

Word on the street a while back was that there would be more comprehensive narrative rules incorporated into the next rulebook. If this allies bit does turn out to be true, I think it may crop up in the "who can work with who" part of the narrative rules.

[DrBored]

The big thing that makes me believe that Allies could be coming is because of the rumors coming from Chaos. Granted, some of these rumors are from BoK, the same source, so we'll see, but hear me out.

Chaos rumors have said two things... Traitor Guard are in, and Lesser/Greater Daemons are out. Those would make a lot of sense (and save a lot of pages of extra rules, etc) if Allies are go. Then, Chaos can ally with IG (to make Traitors) and can ally with Daemons, to fill the hole left by the absence of Daemons in the Chaos Codex.

That just makes a whole heck of a lot of sense.

The rest... I'm very skeptical about. I find it hard to believe that GK, IG, SM, SW, BA, BT, DA, and SoB will be able to ally freely. Throw Necron and Tau in and you've got over half of the Codices on the side of the Imperium. If you play Blood Angels, you've just gained a massive advantage for being able to ally with any Space Marine and two Xenos Codices.

And Tyranids get none after all that? THAT is the pill hardest to swallow.

[Kevlarshark]

If you play in the current GW doubles tournies there is an allies chart which lists the codexes which can be combined to form a doubles list.

Tyranids are the only codex which has cannot ally with another codex in that, and it allows some very dubious combinations in the "distrusted allies" bit.

So its not so surprising they cannot ally.

[Deadlift]

I freely admit to not being up on my Tyranid info, but with the 6th rumours as far as vehicles being easier to destroy and a few other of the new rules, will any of this help Tyranid players out ?.
Oh and who the hell allies themselves with Orks ?

[daboarder]

not really most nid weapons tend to wreck a vehicle if they manage to either hit it, in the case of MC's, or pen it, hive guard and zoanthropes.

[DarkLink]

Oh and who the hell allies themselves with Orks ?

Same dudes who breed xenomorph pets.

[Mr. Furious]

Blood of Kittens is the National Enquirer of gaming news. TastyTaste loves site traffic but most of all loves to hear himself talk. He is full of crap more often than not and never has to take the blame for bad information because his double top secret "sources" are always at fault when he is wrong.

Its 2 months away, folks. Paint some models to pass the time and wait it out rather than wasting your time and energy on BoK's sensationalistic nonsense.

[Bigred]

The Tau thingy *could* be kind of cool, if for example its not all Marines, but only the Ultramarines/Ultramar who take this view of the Tau.

Then you get a schism between the utopian Ultras, and all the other more conservative chapters - probably with the super xenophobic Black Templars hopping mad and looking to settle things with the Smurfs.

In any case, I've personally known Tasty for years, and he doesn't make things up. He can write plenty incendiary editorials about the game if he just wanted to get traffic.

Either its true and GW is pulling 6th way closer to WFB 8th (which is what we are hearing from all our BoLS sources), or his source is totally off base (as is everyone else's).

Tick tock, we are almost exactly 2 months from the hardcover release date, so we should start to see all kinds of stuff spilling in the weeks ahead.

Regarding the Allies thing, I think its a non-starter. WFB 8th has had allies rules and nobody ever uses them, and no tournament allows them. If GW just transposed that 4 page Allies section from WFB 8th into 40k, it would die on the vine.

[HsojVvad]

I think Ally rules would be great for clubs or people you play with a bit, but strangers in pick up games, I think it would be more like Forge World, ask your oppoent or not at all.

People getting in an uproar for nothing before we know all the details.

[daboarder]

God I hope his source is full of it. seriously random powers.....why ever take zoanthropes or a hive tyrant without paroxysm.....or Eldar, oh god. Thats not even mentioning stupid random charge ranges and "Snap Fire"

[Bigred]

I have a very strong "gut feeling" that lots of this stuff is true.

Here's my rationale.

GW has made no apologies regarding Fantasy 8th. They changed it more than they did in over a decade, and totally shook up the game. They then spent the last 18 months updating several books and adding super giant kits and a whole slew of terrain kits for fantasy, curiously leaving 40k out of it all.

So now its 40k's time for a new edition. Do you think GW really isn't going to follow the $80 dollar 512pp coffeetable book, with over 100 pages of fluff, and $45+ dollar hardcover codices, not to mention a line of oversized plastic terrain sci-fi terrain kits (with rules included in the rulebook) for 40k?

They've already done it. Why wouldn't they do it again, and think they would make even more cash as 40K is a larger system? They have already said that they don't give a fig about the competitive scene and that a finely tuned ruleset isn't a priority, because they are "hobby focused", not "competitive focused".

Remember that a ruleset that invalidates most armies, and increases lethality across the board requires everyone to buy larger armies, with more minis.

[DrBored]

The Tau thingy *could* be kind of cool, if for example its not all Marines, but only the Ultramarines/Ultramar who take this view of the Tau.

Then you get a schism between the utopian Ultras, and all the other more conservative chapters - probably with the super xenophobic Black Templars hopping mad and looking to settle things with the Smurfs.

This I can agree with. The Dark Angels are too absorbed in their own stuff to defend the Tau, the Black Templar are xenophobic, and the Blood Angels and Space Wolves have bigger fish to fry. If the Vanilla SM Codex is the only one that can ally with Tau, then I can understand this particular ally demographic, just as if Blood Angels are the only ones to ally with Necron.


Regarding the Allies thing, I think its a non-starter. WFB 8th has had allies rules and nobody ever uses them, and no tournament allows them. If GW just transposed that 4 page Allies section from WFB 8th into 40k, it would die on the vine.

The trouble is that it doesn't sound like they're transposing it. It sounds like they're making a whole different one. The Warhammer Fantasy rulebook has all the armies organized into nice little sections of 'Order', 'Chaos', and 'Neutral', with the allies drawn from those pools.

You can't really do that for 40k since there are 5 Space Marine Codices, and 3 more Imperium Codices (GK, SoB, and IG), and those 8 take up half of the armies! (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Necron, Tau, Tyranids, Daemons, and Chaos Marines making up the other 8 Codices) This skews the demographic completely, so you would need totally different ally tables and rules.

If done right, I could see ally rules being accepted at some tournaments, but the idea that Tyranids don't get any makes me think that, for fairness, most TO's won't allow it, which, as you say, makes a non-starter of a rule. Even casual games might not bother simply because a lot of casual games I experience or have seen have been practice for tournament play.



I have a very strong "gut feeling" that lots of this stuff is true.

Here's my rationale.

GW has made no apologies regarding Fantasy 8th. They changed it more than they did in over a decade, and totally shook up the game. They then spent the last 18 months updating several books and adding super giant kits and a whole slew of terrain kits for fantasy, curiously leaving 40k out of it all.

So now its 40k's time for a new edition. Do you think GW really isn't going to follow the $80 dollar 512pp coffeetable book, with over 100 pages of fluff, and $45+ dollar hardcover codices, not to mention a line of oversized plastic terrain sci-fi terrain kits (with rules included in the rulebook) for 40k?

They've already done it. Why wouldn't they do it again, and think they would make even more cash as 40K is a larger system? They have already said that they don't give a fig about the competitive scene and that a finely tuned ruleset isn't a priority, because they are "hobby focused", not "competitive focused".

Remember that a ruleset that invalidates most armies, and increases lethality across the board requires everyone to buy larger armies, with more minis.

Also, GW has made no apologies probably because it has had success. Most people I know that play it now enjoy it immensely, and the rest can't afford to support two games in their budget.

So yes, I agree with all of this and then some. It really comes down to sales, and if these rumors are true, then there's probably something else that we're not seeing that is going to be a huge selling point.

Remember, a lot of the rumormongers have been saying that GW is still tight on their rumors, and so the rumormongers have only been able to release or verify stuff that's not too surprising, like similarities to WFB. That leaves a lot of open territory for USR's, new charts, new rules, changed rules, new additions, the removal of other things, etc, etc, so right now the only bits we're seeing are bits that are similar to WFB. This is just the tip of the iceberg, methinks, and there's going to be a lot more optimistic, juicy stuff later on in the month.

[daboarder]

\
Remember that a ruleset that invalidates most armies, and increases lethality across the board requires everyone to buy larger armies, with more minis.

The problem with this is that is assumes that people are willing to re-invest in 40k, and given the current global economy, botched pricing and at this point "assumed" terrible rules then people wont re-invest in the same way, as far as I can tell despite what GW has sunk into it fantasy is now a suffering game.

while I agree that I would expect to see hardcover codex's and a very large rule book I also think that the change from codex listed powers to "random" powers is a bigger change for the codex's in 40k than the change was from 7th to 8th. I mean Eldar and Tyranids literally don't work without the support of their psychic powers. Furthermore why do GK's get to be the pretty special snowflake that ignores these random crap tables?

No if this is indeed the way 40k is going then it will no longer be a game that I find enjoyable, key issues that worry me are things like the random powers, potential for random attacks like the giant in fantasy and what appears given current information to be an absolute butchery of the background, turning the story into something more fitting a teenage novel than a true masterpiece of science fiction.

[flekkzo]

Random powers.

What if the powers are revised and updated with the codex? What if we get psycher levels back? A level four Farseer should get 4 powers and thus pack quite a punch. It works in Fantasy so I don't see why it couldn't work in 40k.

Allies.

What if allies are simply rules for what happens in games with two or more players on the same side. There's always a good argument on what happens when two armies plays together. It would mean nada in a 1-1 game.

I will get that extra expensive 40k rule book when it shows up. What decides if I will play or not is available opponents, plain and simple.

[daboarder]

would still be pretty much a deal breaker for me personally, I DESPISE the bull**** way magic works like that in fantasy and I LOVE psykers in 40k and I'm grateful that they've had a greater role in the latest codex's but if it goes to random it'll kill it for me.

[eldargal]

The thing is though that 8th needed a massive revamp, 7th edition had almost killed it. 5th edition ios hihgly successful. While I can see the format changing, ie large hardback rulebook and hardcover codices, I just don't see GW taking such a radical approach with a ruleset that is not in anywhere near as dire a situation as 7th WFB was.

GW have always kept WFB adn 40k as two entirely seperate game sytems, I just don't buy these rumours that pop up every edition that change that one or other is going to be moved closer to the other.

Another thing is hat for all its changes 8th edition is still a fairly simple ruleset to learn to play. The rumours we have for 6th ed 40k point to an extremely convoluted ruleset which is at odds with 40ks more streamlined (if till complex) approach.

Remember th reason WFB got revamped and has bene receiving lots of new big plastic kits is because it is catching up with 40k in that regard, not the other way around. 40k already has the big plastic kits and hs for much longer. WFB 8th was catch up to 40k, I just find the premise that 40k would then follow 8th quite bizarre.


I have a very strong "gut feeling" that lots of this stuff is true.

Here's my rationale.

GW has made no apologies regarding Fantasy 8th. They changed it more than they did in over a decade, and totally shook up the game. They then spent the last 18 months updating several books and adding super giant kits and a whole slew of terrain kits for fantasy, curiously leaving 40k out of it all.

So now its 40k's time for a new edition. Do you think GW really isn't going to follow the $80 dollar 512pp coffeetable book, with over 100 pages of fluff, and $45+ dollar hardcover codices, not to mention a line of oversized plastic terrain sci-fi terrain kits (with rules included in the rulebook) for 40k?

They've already done it. Why wouldn't they do it again, and think they would make even more cash as 40K is a larger system? They have already said that they don't give a fig about the competitive scene and that a finely tuned ruleset isn't a priority, because they are "hobby focused", not "competitive focused".

Remember that a ruleset that invalidates most armies, and increases lethality across the board requires everyone to buy larger armies, with more minis.

Of course another possibility is that what we are seeing is true, but so out of context and wapred by 'chinese whispers' that it offers no actual insight into how the game will function. There were some rumours about 8th ed like that, we didn't start seeing truly accurate 8th ed rumours until quite near release.

[DrLove42]

would still be pretty much a deal breaker for me personally, I DESPISE the bull**** way magic works like that in fantasy and I LOVE psykers in 40k and I'm grateful that they've had a greater role in the latest codex's but if it goes to random it'll kill it for me.

I agree with this.

Physic powers work as they are now.Bingo bango done. If they have to be selected in deployment, thats OK, as long as its not randomised.

If its randomised, or we turn to a Fantasy setting of casting and dispelling (replace the "Winds of Magic" with "The Strength of the Warp" and you could just copy and paste from the Fantasy rule book) I don't want it.

I don't play Fantasy becuase I don't like how the magic works

And on the subject of allies...we all now Nids lose...but who atually wins? Imperial Guard.

They can ally with all the marine chapterS (Van, DA, BA, BT, GK, SW) and the other imperial people (Sisters). They can ally with Eldar and Tau, as they often do in the fluff, let alone this massive shift or as auxillaries. They should be able to ally with Nids (genestealer cults)...and then they can just say "Hey we're traitor guard!" and ally with CSM and Deamons.

You can make a case for them working with everyone except Orks, Necrons and DE (and even here you could call them slaves).

No other army has so many allying options

[eldargal]

Which is why it is completely inconceivable that GW would write them that way.

[Turner]

I agree with this.
You can make a case for them working with everyone except Orks, Necrons and DE (and even here you could call them slaves).

No other army has so many allying options


Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa... The Imperial Guard allied with Necrons when a 'Nid invasion showed up (I remember reading it somewhere, I believe the 4th Ed. IG Codex) and I remember back in the day Orks could take tons of IG vehicles because the IG would sell them to the Orks in exchange for "working" together. And by working together I mean the Orks would go first and fight and the Guard would follow behind.


I'm pretty sure we could make a case that the IG could "ally" with every race out there... ;)

[bfmusashi]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa... The Imperial Guard allied with Necrons when a 'Nid invasion showed up (I remember reading it somewhere, I believe the 4th Ed. IG Codex) and I remember back in the day Orks could take tons of IG vehicles because the IG would sell them to the Orks in exchange for "working" together. And by working together I mean the Orks would go first and fight and the Guard would follow behind.


I'm pretty sure we could make a case that the IG could "ally" with every race out there... ;)

All except Tyranids as the genestealer hybrids were already absorbed by the hivefleet by the time a proper invasion began. 'Stealer cults though totally rocked the guard. You also just made me miss the Blood Axes terribly.

[robrodgers46]

If I have allies, does that mean I can put my Grey Hunters in Chimeras instead of Rhinos? Can I take Leman Russes and paint them SW Grey, like I should have been able to all along? Can I put some Long Fangs in my foot guard lists?

This is going to take some incredible balancing, which GW seems not that good at. But, from a casual playing perspective, it sounds fun!

I'm looking forward to it, just because it will be different. I'm not buying any models until it comes out though, which will cost GW about $200, based on my monthly average buy. I bet a lot of people are doing the same. I'm instead betting my Dust Warfare army ready, just in case...

r

[Defenestratus]

This is going to take some incredible balancing, which GW seems not that good at. But, from a casual playing perspective, it sounds fun!


I'm looking forward to Eldrad guiding my Loota-spam list.

[Father]

I too have put on hold any further purchases at this time.

[Panxer]

I know these are just rumors, and I take rumors like a quadriplegic takes on a speeding bus ( I don't)(and if you can't laugh at the mental image, then feel free to skip this)

But I giggle to myself every time I think about how many staunch xenos hating marine players were reading the rumor with mouths agape, and about how many astartes fell upon their chainswords when they heard the news that Tau (of all races) were humanity's best hope to defeat chaos...wa...wa...

There is a battle brother somewhere on his way to some crusade, and typing angrily to the ship's astropath sending out to 'emperorfunpants'@terramail.cleanse, writing...

dear lord emperor,

...W...T...F...??!!

Signed, hugs n kisses, death to the xenos,

BB Octavian Bloodfist

PS Death to the heretic...

[DrLove42]

The BoLS facebook page has continued its trsdition of posting new rulours to itself and not here with;


-Apparantly the random physcic powers are in still. 6"lores" with 6 spells you roll for in them. And apparantly they sound vey similar to the type of brotherhood the Thousand Sons have i. "a thousand sons".

So thats one thats fire based, one that can predict the future, one that can produce Kine Shields....cant remember any more

Hopefully this could be a micommunication and ots only 1000 sons sorcerors in rhe new codex that sre random....

[daboarder]

If its random powers in ADDITION to what you normally get then that would be cool, basically a return on "minor" powers, still not sold on mains being random though.

I still don't see why GK's supposedly get to be super special snowflakes.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Becasue Ward fancies himself an English Chuck Norris thats why. He's running around GW with a big ruler slapping anyone who tries to de-fluff his fluffiness, or de-throne their awesomeness too.
He wants them to be the ultra, uber, shooty, nice Khorne that they are and that no one, no xenos, no SM or anything being able to out class them thats why.

[Wolfshade]

If its random powers in ADDITION to what you normally get then that would be cool, basically a return on "minor" powers, still not sold on mains being random though.

I still don't see why GK's supposedly get to be super special snowflakes.

Well random powers would head us back to 2nd Ed Dark Millenium, ah those were the days with 3x10^24 templates deck of warp cards :eek:

[DarkLink]

Actually, even with the old codex the fluff pretty much stated that GKs were the biggest, baddest ***********s in the entire universe, matched only by the most powerful of greater Daemons and/or maybe the elite Eldar guarding the Black Library.

[Lore Weaver]

Allies eh? I wonder if I can swing a Blood Angel Apothecary for a unit of Lychguard.

Or just take Mephiston with my Necrons. That seems reasonable.

[Wildcard]

GK allied with BA :)

Terminators & Purifiers with FNP
hell, army wide FNP, including NDK :)

[Deadlift]

If allies are in I can't see codex specific abilties and effects being able to be used by the allies your using. Feel no pain give by Sanguinary priests in the example above in a GK and BA combo, I would think only BA units should be able to benefit from the FNP he gives.

I could be wrong I don't think so.

[Wildcard]

If the "leaked 6th ed." is anything to go by, then all the benefits (auras & special rules etc.) are transfered to all the players of the same side

I know its not exactly the same as allies in terms what we are talking now, but there was a section in the rules for 2v2, 3v3 etc games.

- auras
- special rules
- transports
- etc i cant think of right now

All were usable and shared by the players on the same side..

[bfmusashi]

Grey Knights being given IG orders was a problem when the IG codex first came out. I'd hate to see that repeated now. I can only imagine it would be worse now since IG are everyone's friends (although the image of a platoon commander yelling Move, Move, Move! at Jain Zar does appeal to me).

[Wildcard]

IG Commander yelling "Get Back In The Fight" to Draigo after he gets drawn back to warp by the mystery portal - Priceless

[Kawauso]

If allies -do- become a thing...

Well, I guess at least I'll finally be able to make that Inquisition-led Deathwatch strike force I've wanted, using the SM and GK books together.

[Wildcard]

Crowe: 150pts
8x Purifier with decent loadout and razorback with psyammo ~280pts x3: 840pts
9x Leman Russ BT with HB sponsons: 1530pts
2520pts

Enough firepower to level anything from afar, and enough CC capability not to worry about dudelings thinking to coming to take down the russes in CC :)

This said, it would actually make a lot of sense to have %- based FoC. Granted, it does make the list building a bit harder, especially for young people.

But now, russes use ~61% of points in a 2500pts list
And Purifiers (as troops) 33%

And this is just one of the many min-max combos out there, i bet player who know more contents of different codexes can pull out even more devastating combos..

If the persentages are rightly balanced, and certain criteria put out to balance stuff it would imo work better than the number of slots available as allies.
(IIRC Leman russ plasma variant with plasma sponsons and lascannon clocks at ~260pts?, and you can take 3 of those in one squadron filling one slot. Thats ~800pts in one slot, and they can hurt alot, especially footslogger armies, cover or not.

Give me one excample (in the current normal ruleset games) where a single unitslot (Paladins and IG Platoon aside) can get such a devastating slot vs points ratio?

[Chuck777]

I am sure there are going to be rules and restrictions on Allying so as to mitigate the cherry picking.

1) You can only ally with only one other army.
2) Units from different codexes cannot benefit from special rules found in another codex.
3) You must take one Troop Choice from the allying codex to take one elite, fast attack or heavy support choice (from the allying codex). HQ's may not be allied.
4) The total number of allied units allowed must be less than half the total number of units used in your whole force.

[danbala]

while I agree that I would expect to see hardcover codex's and a very large rule book I also think that the change from codex listed powers to "random" powers is a bigger change for the codex's in 40k than the change was from 7th to 8th. I mean Eldar and Tyranids literally don't work without the support of their psychic powers.

Keep in mind that the WFB magic system is only somewhat random. Each magic school has a "signature spell" than can always be taken in lieu of a randomly generated spell. These signature spells are usually the "can't live without it" spells. In addition, each school has a magic effect that is triggered when the spell is successfully cast. Again, these could be used to replace the key spells. Finally, if you roll a duplicate spell you get to pick a replacement spell of your choosing.

In reality, this change might not be that much of a big deal if it is implemented well.

[danbala]

Add to this the fact that the fluff changes make no sense whatsoever, I highly doubt any of these rumours are legit...

You might want to check out this GW allies chart for a sense of how this may play out: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2290501a_40K_Doubles_Pack_June_2012.pdf

Note that Tau and SM are "brothers in arms." And, yes, Tyranids get no allies.

[el_pablo65]

I don't like aliies. It alows you to supplement the weakness of one codex with another, and that largely defeats a lot of the point in the game.

This ^

I do like the pre-measuring but it isn't that big a deal. No mention of air units in the article and I am sure airships will play a major role in 6th. I'd have to buy some and I wouldn't be alone.

[DrBored]

You might want to check out this GW allies chart for a sense of how this may play out: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2290501a_40K_Doubles_Pack_June_2012.pdf

Note that Tau and SM are "brothers in arms." And, yes, Tyranids get no allies.

Could it be possible that the rumors of allies may not have come from an actual source, but were simply wishlist-pulled from this? Seems kinda sketchy that this allies matrix matches up with the rumors so very well.

[danbala]

Could it be possible that the rumors of allies may not have come from an actual source, but were simply wishlist-pulled from this? Seems kinda sketchy that this allies matrix matches up with the rumors so very well.

I agree that it seems too much like a coincidence. It seems to me that there are only two likely possibilities: (1) This chart is an independent confirmation of the allies rules or (2) the rumor was derived from an early viewing of the chart.

[Denied]

Seems kinda sketchy that this allies matrix matches up with the rumors so very well.


OMG YOU'RE RIGHT! It's almost like this all could potentially be coming form the same company or something >_> sketchy indeed I also think you were right about the moon landing being a hoax and that aliens really are trying to steal your brain waves.


Like for real dude chill the F@%K OUT! Is it really worth blowing your lid over this? Does nothing else in your life matter? Will your world stop spinning the moment the rumors are true?

[bfmusashi]

I like that the one asking others to chill out is cursing and using exclamation points. It's classy.

[Kevlarshark]

What is interesting is that allies chart is part of the rules pack for the official 40k doubles tournie which is on the week end before the estimated 6th Ed release date...

If Allies are allowed in 6th I cant imagine they would differ wildly from the options there.

The Leaked rules system put a bigger emphasis on team and multi-player games so I reckon there is a good chance Allies will be present in one form or other. After all it gets people buying more models/codexes and starting new armys.

[LordGrise]

I'd say that this all but confirms that allies are in for 6th. ::grin:: Got to go get some Muh-rines...

IMHO, Tau should not be able to ally at all with Orcs. And I do not understand how they are 'Brothers in Arms" with vanilla SM but grudging with every single specific chapter. I thought Space Wolves at least were more tolerant...?

[MajorWesJanson]

Allies may be set up for multi-player games, such as doubles or teams, rather than the more broken "I can take some units from a different book in my army." It may just give formal rules for what powers and abilities affect your partner's army. If so, I welcome it.

[gresha]

I'd say that this all but confirms that allies are in for 6th. ::grin:: Got to go get some Muh-rines...

IMHO, Tau should not be able to ally at all with Orcs. And I do not understand how they are 'Brothers in Arms" with vanilla SM but grudging with every single specific chapter. I thought Space Wolves at least were more tolerant...?

About the Chart: I'm confused why Eldar and Black Templar are "Grudging Allies". Don't BT hate any and all Psykers? Also why Eldar and Dark Eldar are "Brothers in Arms"?

About Allies: I really think this is getting blown out of proportion. I see it closer to being "If you play team battles (2v2, 3v3) these are the armies that can work together" like in Fantasy. I really don't see it being "Oh I play Eldar but 1/3 of my army is Tau Empire".

[DrBored]

OMG YOU'RE RIGHT! It's almost like this all could potentially be coming form the same company or something >_> sketchy indeed I also think you were right about the moon landing being a hoax and that aliens really are trying to steal your brain waves.


Like for real dude chill the F@%K OUT! Is it really worth blowing your lid over this? Does nothing else in your life matter? Will your world stop spinning the moment the rumors are true?

I believe you misread my tone. If I was blowing my lid I would BE TALKING LIEK THIS!!211

I'm eager for the rules to come out, I'm eager to get my hands on the rules. I'm also eager to enjoy Hollywood Studios with my girlfriend tomorrow, just saw the Avengers an hour ago, and will be returning to the mundane 9-5 (or 5-4, or 3-9, retail isn't very forgiving) that most other people enjoy, so no, my world will not stop spinning if the rumors are true, or false, or even partially true or any combination therein.

That said, the allies matrix here was for doubles tournaments, and it matches up very suspiciously well with the rumors for allies for a whole ruleset. The dubious catch is how the allies match up... To give Tyranids none, and so many other armies nearly half of the other books as allies? Even a company like GW can see how unfair that is, and after the horrendous turnout at Adepticon of Tyranid players, I think another smack like this will only hurt the Tyranid fanbase. Not the smartest move.

Just conjecture, just assumptions... but I have a sneaking suspicion that there's a couple little lies sneaking about in all these rumors.

[Deadlift]

OMG YOU'RE RIGHT! It's almost like this all could potentially be coming form the same company or something >_> sketchy indeed I also think you were right about the moon landing being a hoax and that aliens really are trying to steal your brain waves.


Like for real dude chill the F@%K OUT! Is it really worth blowing your lid over this? Does nothing else in your life matter? Will your world stop spinning the moment the rumors are true?

Pot, Kettle, Black.... enough said really.

[Chuck777]

The ally rules for Warhammer World's event is up and guess what? TAU AND ULTRAMARINES ARE BFFs!!!!

The fluff of 40k is a-changin'!

[Mr. Furious]

I have a feeling that these allies rumors all stemmed from this event's rules. This is a single event that is designed to be a doubles tournament. It only makes sense to allow the doubles teams to be made up of different armies to decrease the workload/expense on players who may want to play together but don't have the same army.

I am very hesitant to take this document as any kind of proof that the rumors of allies in 6th edition are true and feel that, more than likely, the rumor originated from this document being seen or mentioned out of context.

[Kawauso]

The ally rules for Warhammer World's event is up and guess what? TAU AND ULTRAMARINES ARE BFFs!!!!

The fluff of 40k is a-changin'!

'Brothers in Arms' on that chart doesn't really mean a whole lot.

Eldar and their dark brethren fall into that category (rightly so) because they will quite often work together, especially over working with other races.

They still hate each other's guts.

The current SM codex mentions that Calgar has a grudging respect for the Tau.
This isn't a change to the fluff. :P

[Bushido]

I doubt this reflects a major shift in the fluff at all. It seems more like a way for Tau players to have an easier time playing in the doubles tournament than anything.

If it is in the fluff that for some reason Tau are best brodudes with the Ultramarines . . . Well, my Minotaurs Chapter will enjoy inflicting the Emperor's Justice on those heretical, traitorous, Xeno collaborator scum, blue-armored Prima donnas! And their Xeno puppet masters!