Nemessor Zahndrekh

[corydorasj]

Counter Tactics - Can Zahndrekh remove Furious Charge from Blood angels suffering the Red Thirst ?

I reckon he should be able to, despite the Angels gaining it as part of the red thirst rather than it being part of their "standard" abilities.

[Angelofblades]

He can, but a follow up question to that is, if he takes it away, can they re-gain it from a nearby Sanguinary Priest?

[Nosmo75]

He can, but a follow up question to that is, if he takes it away, can they re-gain it from a nearby Sanguinary Priest?

I don't see why not. :)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Shame that you can't then steal it from the Priest.

I use Anrakyr myself, killing 2 Marines with a Stormbolter from their own Rhino is amusing, even if it is a waste of his talents. =)

[Kaika87]

I don't see why not. :)

Counter-Tactics: At the start of each of your turns in which Zahndrekh is on the battlefield, choose one enemy unit within his line of sight. That unit loses the following special rules (if it has them), and cannot gain them until the start of your next turn: Acute Senses, Counter-Attack, Furious Charge, Hit and Run, Night Vision, Stealth, and Tank Hunters."

So, in short, yes you can take away FC from units affected with the Red Thirst, and no they cannot gain it back even from a Sanguinary Priest.

[Demonus]

Haha I used him for the first time last battle I played. 2500pts Necrons vs IG + Vulkan Marines. They ignored Anrakyr as they closed in on my big Immortal Squad. He jogged behind the LR and hit the perfectly lined up Assault Terminators with 2 Flame Cannons, Multi Melta, and TL Assault cannon. Did 2 wounds to Vulkan and killed 3 terminators....

As far as the original question(s), I dont see why not. takes FC away, they regain it from a priest next turn.

[Kaika87]

Haha I used him for the first time last battle I played. 2500pts Necrons vs IG + Vulkan Marines. They ignored Anrakyr as they closed in on my big Immortal Squad. He jogged behind the LR and hit the perfectly lined up Assault Terminators with 2 Flame Cannons, Multi Melta, and TL Assault cannon. Did 2 wounds to Vulkan and killed 3 terminators....

As far as the original question(s), I dont see why not. takes FC away, they regain it from a priest next turn.

The rule states "until your next turn," not "until the next [player] turn," so that's why. In this case, it specifies that the effects of Counter-Tactics starts at the beginning of the Necron player's turn and ends at the beginning of the Necron player's next turn.

[keithsilva]

I agree with Kaika87 it clearly says and cannot gain them until the start of your next turn there is no way u can misinterpret the rule its says it point blank but of course there is always someone :confused:

[Tynskel]

I agree with Kaika87 it clearly says and cannot gain them until the start of your next turn there is no way u can misinterpret the rule its says it point blank but of course there is always someone :confused:

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=21435

[celestialatc]

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=21435

Oh Tynskel you make me laugh.

[Tynskel]

Oh Tynskel you make me laugh.

:)

[keithsilva]

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=21435

LMAO that gave me a good laugh forgot all about that thread lol.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Haha I used him for the first time last battle I played. 2500pts Necrons vs IG + Vulkan Marines. They ignored Anrakyr as they closed in on my big Immortal Squad. He jogged behind the LR and hit the perfectly lined up Assault Terminators with 2 Flame Cannons, Multi Melta, and TL Assault cannon. Did 2 wounds to Vulkan and killed 3 terminators....

As far as the original question(s), I dont see why not. takes FC away, they regain it from a priest next turn.

HAH! That genuinely made my day, well done sir.
I performed another epic move by stealing my friend's Manticore, used one missile which split into 3 and wiped out his Leman Russ squadron, his Eternals proceeded to clap him and then cause a Platoon to flee. 10 dice, 16 hits, 14 kills, take that!


Counter-Tactics: At the start of each of your turns in which Zahndrekh is on the battlefield, choose one enemy unit within his line of sight. That unit loses the following special rules (if it has them), and cannot gain them until the start of your next turn: Acute Senses, Counter-Attack, Furious Charge, Hit and Run, Night Vision, Stealth, and Tank Hunters."

So, in short, yes you can take away FC from units affected with the Red Thirst, and no they cannot gain it back even from a Sanguinary Priest.

Ah, I hadn't read that rule properly as I've never taken Zahndrekh (as he had no model) but it is nice to know that as I plan to write up an army for him.

[Kaika87]

HAH! That genuinely made my day, well done sir.
I performed another epic move by stealing my friend's Manticore, used one missile which split into 3 and wiped out his Leman Russ squadron, his Eternals proceeded to clap him and then cause a Platoon to flee. 10 dice, 16 hits, 14 kills, take that!



Ah, I hadn't read that rule properly as I've never taken Zahndrekh (as he had no model) but it is nice to know that as I plan to write up an army for him.

Biggest thing to keep in mind as well, Counter Tactics removes all of the listed special rules from one enemy unit, as opposed to Adaptive Tactics which only grants your unit one special rule.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Biggest thing to keep in mind as well, Counter Tactics removes all of the listed special rules from one enemy unit, as opposed to Adaptive Tactics which only grants your unit one special rule.

DUDE. He's automatically in any army vs Blood Angels or Space Wolves. Hahah!!
Oh how I love the 'crons.

[Angelofblades]

So can Zan take off Furious Charge from say a Blood Angels unit that is given to them by a priest?

The BA FAQ says that the unit gains the bonus when they use them. IE When they charge. So technically they don't get Furious Charge, until they charge with a priest in range.

I have an opponent taking away Furious Charge conferred by the priest on units that don't have them yet. Is that legal?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

What's the exact wording on Blood Chalice??

[Angelofblades]

The Blood chalice says:

All freindly units within 6" are subject to the Furious charge and Feel No Pain special rules.

the BA FAQ says:

Q: At what point does a model need to be in range of
a Blood Chalice or The Red Grail in order to gain the
bonuses of Furious Charge? (p48, 49, 52)
A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when the
model makes its close combat attacks.

So to me that means that Zan can't take away a units Furious Charge from BA units that gain it from Sanguinary Priests, unless they Red Thirsted. Unless there is some sort of argument that he can take away special rules from a unit that doesn't have them ??

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

But it still counts as having that USR, therefore yes, Zahndrekh can take it.
If it only had it in the assault phase then it wouldn't matter, as Zahndrekh can't act out of sequence.

As soon as the unit is within 6" of a Priest it becomes subject to those two rules, and counts as having them. So Zahndrekh can steal them.

[Angelofblades]

But it still counts as having that USR, therefore yes, Zahndrekh can take it.
If it only had it in the assault phase then it wouldn't matter, as Zahndrekh can't act out of sequence.

As soon as the unit is within 6" of a Priest it becomes subject to those two rules, and counts as having them. So Zahndrekh can steal them.

I don't follow. The FAQ directly contradicts you though. The codex says you'll have it if youre within 6", but the FAQ clarifies that you'll get it when you use it... So until they use it, they don't have it...technically.

Because you can kill the priest at a higher I in combat, and the unit doesn't get the benefit from furious charge when it's their turn to make their attacks. So they can't even count as having it at all.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

*shrug* I'm not Mat Ward, or whoever wrote that FAQ, you're free to take the rules however you want. I'd refer to Tynskel's thread as posted above however.

[Kaika87]

I don't follow. The FAQ directly contradicts you though. The codex says you'll have it if youre within 6", but the FAQ clarifies that you'll get it when you use it... So until they use it, they don't have it...technically.

Because you can kill the priest at a higher I in combat, and the unit doesn't get the benefit from furious charge when it's their turn to make their attacks. So they can't even count as having it at all.

You're grasping so horribly it's laughable. The FAQ you're speaking of was only meant to clarify at what point in the assault phase do you need to be in range of the priest, before launching your assault or after. The clarification essentially boils down to "you need to be within 6" after assault moves have been made."

Zahndrekh takes away BA Furious Charge. Period. According to his rule, the USR he takes away cannot be gained again.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

You're grasping so horribly it's laughable. The FAQ you're speaking of was only meant to clarify at what point in the assault phase do you need to be in range of the priest, before launching your assault or after. The clarification essentially boils down to "you need to be within 6" after assault moves have been made."

Zahndrekh takes away BA Furious Charge. Period. According to his rule, the USR he takes away cannot be gained again.

Until the next Necron player turn. :D

[Angelofblades]

You're grasping so horribly it's laughable. The FAQ you're speaking of was only meant to clarify at what point in the assault phase do you need to be in range of the priest, before launching your assault or after. The clarification essentially boils down to "you need to be within 6" after assault moves have been made."

Zahndrekh takes away BA Furious Charge. Period. According to his rule, the USR he takes away cannot be gained again.

No, I'm pretty sure I'm following RAW.

The FAQ says when you get Furious Charge. Zan can't take away what you don't have. The FAQ says models get FC when they use it. So prior to actually using it, they don't have it. The FAQ is pretty clear on that.

[keithsilva]

I agree with Kaika87 you are really grasping at straws here, takes it away plain and simple, and they can not get it back, i mean i think the way its word it ok if they were going to get it then they lose it and cant get it back. Whats the big deal anyways on no u dont benfit from furious charge, you are still going to strike before the them anyways, on no you are only strength 4 or whatever your strength is you are still proably going to win combat anyways.

[Kaika87]

No, I'm pretty sure I'm following RAW.

The FAQ says when you get Furious Charge. Zan can't take away what you don't have. The FAQ says models get FC when they use it. So prior to actually using it, they don't have it. The FAQ is pretty clear on that.

I could go at this in SO many ways. For example, whenever you are in range of a Blood Chalice, you have the FnP/FC, and again, the FAQ is ONLY clarifying at what point during the assault phase do you need to be within 6" of the priest. But instead, I will simply re-quote Zahndrekh's special rule that you obviously have not read, bolding the important parts.

Counter-Tactics: At the start of each of your turns in which Zahndrekh is on the battlefield, choose one enemy unit within his line of sight. That unit loses the following special rules (if it has them), and cannot gain them until the start of your next turn: Acute Senses, Counter-Attack, Furious Charge, Hit and Run, Night Vision, Stealth, and Tank Hunters.

Even if Blood Angels magically did not have Furious Charge until after all assault moves have been made (which is wrong, it's an ongoing effect that you check constantly to make sure you are within 6" - e.g. if a unit takes casualties during the shooting phase, it can potentially be knocked out of Chalice range), it would be irrelevant on 2 points

1) Zahndrekh's rule does not target a specific special rule. In theory, Zahndrekh could legally use his counter-tactics for a turn on a unit that has none of those special rules and no ability to gain them, though doing so would have no tactical merit.

2) Zahndrekh's rule specifies that the unit cannot gain any of the special rules listed. Again, supposing your hilarious misinterpretation of the FAQ is correct, it wouldn't matter because Zahndrekh does not allow the gaining of Furious Charge.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Basically, Zahndrekh is always right! He's a senile old robot and wishes that you red sparkly angels would get off of his gods be damned property!

[Demonus]

Basically, Zahndrekh is always right! He's a senile old robot and wishes that you red sparkly angels would get off of his gods be damned property!

/shakes fist

"Damned Kids."

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

/shakes fist

"Damned Kids."

With their Red Thirst and fast Heavy Artillery and Land Raiders that can fall outta god damned sky!