GW IPhammer reaches China?

[Akaiyou]

a planet where corporations are people. Seriously there really is no comparing bootlegs with rape one hurts an individual the other a legal construct, and no it doesn't hurt the employees they get paid what they are going to get paid reguardless. You can however make a case for jobs not created because of it, but those are usually going to china anyway so same deal.

They're both the dark side.



1. Just because a stupid *** US supreme court decided that corporations are people does not mean that they in fact are. But I do see your point

And the rape thing was just a silly anology that he made in comparing the two if not outright insulting. I personally know many victims of actual rape and it's like a slap in the face to all of them, I took that one a bit personally I admit.

2. Yes they are. Thus you can't lose either way right?

Bottom line in business is that it is the companies that should be duking it out with each other to gain/retain consumers. We should not be the ones fighting over where we can get a better deal/value

[Akaiyou]

1. I have never bought or used anything pirated so I am perfectly entitled to take the moral high ground on this one.
2. Whilst pirating is in no way as bad as rape they are both immoral and illegal actions. And I made that point to highlight how stupid your justification of 'I can't get it through legal means so I'm entitled to get it through illegal ones, especailly as other people do' is. If that justification is valid for this criminal and immoral action it is through logical extension valid for all criminal and immoral actions. Only it isn't because it is a moronic justification.
3. I am well aware of the poor starving masses across the world. As I have explained they are obviously not the people who own the company. The people who own the company are criminals. The criminals will not be paying their employees a fair wage, because they are criminals and don't give a stuff. You are delusional if you think this is some noble minded workers cooperative. So by supporting the criminals you are actually helping to oppress the masses you care so much about.
4. They damage the hobby for a very obvious and simple reason. GW invests time and money into developing the hobby. The pirates do not. They steal the stuff GW has made and put nothing back into the hobby. They are not competition, they are thieves as you yourself admitted. Competition makes it's own products and sells them as rivals to GW. If everyone buys from them, no one buys from GW, GW has no money to invest in new product so the hobby dies. And once they have dealt with GW, they will move onto the other manufacturers. For someone who claims to know about buisness you seem to have fairly poor grasp of it.
5. Do you realise you have actually contradicted yourself? You say people wouldn't buy from pirates if stuff was 20% cheaper but then say that you can get legitimate stuff 20% cheaper from the internet anyway.

What this boils down to is you not giving a stuff about the law or the future of the hobby but you wanting cheap stuff. I wouldn't actually mind so much if you just came out and said that, rather than giving these bull&*%t justifications in an attempt to salve your conscience and persuade us you aren't doing a bad thing. Just admit you are doing a bad thing and don't care and leave it at that.

1. Great you've never bought a bootleg. Does that mean that you've never EVER done ANYTHING in your life that was morally 'questionable'? Who is anyone to talk about moral high ground when there's sure to be at least one thing where they've been morally questionable in their lives?

It's like a mass murderer making fun of a bank robber for being a thief. So again don't throw stones when you live in a glass house, the internet is full of people that suddenly become 'holier than thou' at the first opportunity when knowing full well that they are far removed from it.

2. It is insulting to rape victims and their close friends/loved ones when you make that comparison. Nothing you've said so far was as insulting as that analogy. And furthermore now you want to seemingly try to convince me that buying a bootleg is an entry point for further criminal action.

I can only assume that if you were king of the world, stealing a peanut would earn someone that death penalty on account that they are sure to be engaging in heavy criminal activity in the future. Makes me wonder how long the king himself would be able to keep his head afloat THAT boat.

3. I'm delusional? Yet you feigned ignorance on the matter as if it is the owners of the company that actually do the 'work'. Do you think the CEO at GW isn't criminal in his practices? Having a monopoly IS a crime you know, and GW is not far from it in this market. For a company to make it to the top of the food chain like that they more likely than not have bend or flat out broken a few rules. Look at microsoft do you think they became so successful just on merit of hard work alone?

Come on man open your eyes to the reality of the matter, business is usually dirty by nature. The point is that WE get to choose where we spend our hard earned cash. Given the choice I don't mind spending mine on a bootlegging company owned by rich douchebags that are stealing from other rich douchebags, because a portion of my money will go to feeding those poor workers and GW is not my second cousin, I don't owe the company anything.

"Brand Loyalty" which is what you are clearly feeling is just another name for cash cow brainwashing. Go to college and take a class on marketing, and perhaps you'll see how ridiculously well GW has apparently marketed to you that you feel so strongly about bootleggers stealing their IP when it doesn't actually affect you personally. Don't be a sheep my friend, because I assure you both of these companies are wolves

4. You couldn't be more wrong. Bootleggers usually help in maintaining interest in a market, while they do affect sales, they do normally help with marketing. Because guess what? Bootleggers also want to actually sell their bootlegs. Very few products sell themselves.

What percentage of revenue do you actually believe that GW is losing from all this??

Companies thrive in a competitive enviorment, GW lacks competition, it lacks incentive, that's why there's so much complaining from long time supporters in respect to some of the actions taken by GW with their product. I've been in the hobby 7 years now while not nearly as long as some of you, it's definetly long enough to realize that 'hey this company really just does whatever the hell they want without worry of a back lash' simply because no other company can compete with them on a global scale.

Anything that gives them incentive to keep a happier consumer base is a GOOD thing for us consumers. Do you actually work for GW? Because if you don't then you are simply a consumer as am I, and as such we have a voice by means of the money we invest but let's face it what does a Dictator care about the 'voice' of a few thousand complaining in a population of a million? Without proper competition GW can simply ignore minor revenue losses (because there's people like yourself that will bend over backwards to shell out whatever amounts of money they ask for you) regardless of how much effort they put into improving the hobby or doing any of the stuff you claim that they do for the hobby. The term 'cash cow' was coined for a reason and to them you are exactly that, a cash cow.

5. That's not a contradiction I never said people would not buy from bootleggers if things were 20% off standard as they are on the internet. Because I clearly said there will ALWAYS be bootlegging. However their business would clearly not be as successful because less people would feel like the prices are too high to buy legit. It's simple math, it affects both sides. That's how markets work.

My point was that 20% off current retail prices IS what the retail price should actuallly be. Brings me to my point from earlier, we the consumers shouldn't have to be the ones scouring the internet for a reasonable price. Internet companies that sell GW stuff are getting their stuff FROM GW so GW still wins regardless there is still no competitive incentive for them what part of that is so hard to understand?

Imagine if there were only 1 company that you could buy toilet paper from in the whole world. Of course they'd charge a ridiculously high price for such a valuable commodity, and they also wholesale to other smaller companies that retail the toilet paper for a bit less in order to be able to compete with big daddy toilet paper company. But these smaller companies are few and far apart

It does not make it 'ok' because there's a few places where u can get the toilet paper a bit cheaper when everyone knows that the company making them is clearly overpricing it and making a killing no matter who they are selling it to. We all deserve to have a fair price be standard and that when we do go looking for those few companies that we are looking for a sweet deal and not a reasonable price only.

6. As to your last bit about me coming out to say that I want a cheaper price and don't care for the hobby. Haven't i stressed it enough that I would like to see a cheaper price on this stuff? I think that much is clear do I need to write it on a cloud for you?
As for not caring about the hobby, that's false. I own 40,000 pts worth of stuff through a total of 9 armies and thats not counting the money spent on glue, dice, codexes, rulebooks etc I'm fairly positive that i've spent more money than most in this hobby I have a great investment and i love it. But im no sheep and i'm wise enough to be aware that this is NOT cool, there is little competition and it's clearly an abusive system on the consumers.

If you see a bully beating on some poor sap, would you not speak out? Because I know I would. So to me this thread is the same scenario except people like you are making such a big deal that the bully is finally getting his, I say 'serves him right' if we consumers benefit from 2 companies going at it then we should celebrate it.

Or as my little cousin would put it 'If you like GW so much why dont you marry her?'

[DarkLink]

I would care more about piracy if anyone at all could actually figure out how much of an impact it actually had on stuff. As far as I can tell, for the most part it's practically the jaywalking of traffic violations, but I don't think anyone actually knows.


I can only assume that if you were king of the world, stealing a peanut would earn someone that death penalty on account that they are sure to be engaging in heavy criminal activity in the future. Makes me wonder how long the king himself would be able to keep his head afloat THAT boat.

He does think that because he doesn't find carrying a pocket knife around to be socially acceptable, you should be thrown in jail. Only a barbarian would carry around a piece of metal that could be useful for prying or opening packages or stuff like that.

[gendoikari87]

Given the choice I don't mind spending mine on a bootlegging company owned by rich douchebags that are stealing from other rich douchebags, because a portion of my money will go to feeding those poor workers and GW is not my second cousin, I don't owe the company anything.

"Brand Loyalty" which is what you are clearly feeling is just another name for cash cow brainwashing. Go to college and take a class on marketing, and perhaps you'll see how ridiculously well GW has apparently marketed to you that you feel so strongly about bootleggers stealing their IP when it doesn't actually affect you personally. Don't be a sheep my friend, because I assure you both of these companies are wolves

I wouldn't be so quick to call him blind, one of the "rich *********" as you call them, maybe. That or blind.

[Psychosplodge]

No but it's there and is sometimes used. I suspect that law was supposed to be a vote winner as much as a deterrent. There do seem to have been less stabbings in the last couple of years.
.

Have you been watching different news to me?:confused:


I always wonder what people define as the "cause" of crime, i studied criminology at uni and still havent found an acceptable answer to the question what causes crime.

ffs what were you wanting to be? Batman?


However its a lot harder to hide an attack dog down your trousers, bloody dangerous too.

And you probably only try it once...


British armed response units, yes we do have them, are allowed to shoot to kill if they believe life is in serious danger.

Not so much allowed, they only shoot to kill, it's too dangerous to do otherwise, they said as much on that "coppers" documentary


what's the average response time? here in america it can be anything from 11 to 30 minutes.


Theoretically sub 8 mins

[Deadlift]

And you probably only try it once



Thank god there's someone else who has a sense of humour.


I may not be as intellectual and articulate as some of the posts in regard to buying pirated material. I personally would never do it.

I buy mostly from a small hobby shop up the street from me, it's not the cheapest but I buy from them because I like the owner and I feel it's important to support local business when I can. I don't think that makes me any kind of sheep to be honest.

As for having brand loyalty and being brainwashed. I find that good customer care, after sales support etc are what decides my brand loyalty. I have been buying a certain german brand of car now for 15 years, change each vehicle every 3 years or so. I don't look else where because the vehicles I buy and the treatment I get are always 1st class. Am I stuck in my ways ? Maybe. I am happy ? Of course I am.

To say brand loyalty is being brainwashed is just daft.

[Akaiyou]

Thank god there's someone else who has a sense of humour.


I may not be as intellectual and articulate as some of the posts in regard to buying pirated material. I personally would never do it.

I buy mostly from a small hobby shop up the street from me, it's not the cheapest but I buy from them because I like the owner and I feel it's important to support local business when I can. I don't think that makes me any kind of sheep to be honest.

As for having brand loyalty and being brainwashed. I find that good customer care, after sales support etc are what decides my brand loyalty. I have been buying a certain german brand of car now for 15 years, change each vehicle every 3 years or so. I don't look else where because the vehicles I buy and the treatment I get are always 1st class. Am I stuck in my ways ? Maybe. I am happy ? Of course I am.

To say brand loyalty is being brainwashed is just daft.

Like i said before, take a marketing class and see for yourself. College has this way of opening your eyes to the unspoken truths of the world.

Very similar to how (at least here in america) the history we learn up until high school is different to what we learn once we are in college and have access to more sources. Honestly in the early years of development history books are pretty much propaganda for minors.

What you describe as being 'stuck in your ways' is exactly what marketers describe as a cash cow. Someone that you've marketed to SO well that they become dependable no matter what.

I am in agreeance with you that we should support local small businesses (everybody starts somewhere and the economoy would indeed collapse without them) and that if they are providing you 1st class service that this is a good a reason as any to be loyal to them and continue to buy from them.

The point where you become a so called sheep, is when you do all the above without ever thinking it. Commercials ARE designed to brainwash, marketing is a form of brainwashing in many different forms. You may not notice it but it's the truth, and funnily enough brainwashed people don't actually tend to realize that they've been brainwashed (Science Fiction anyone?)

For myself personally, before college i would ALWAYS buy Sneakers chocolate bar. Whenever i would feel hungry and didn't want/have anything else to eat i'd go and buy a sneaker's bar. It was like an automated reaction, and of course i would accompany this with a Sprite. Sprite and Sneakers, that was my thing.

Sneaker's slogan is "Hungry? Why wait grab a Sneakers"
Sprite is "Obey your thrist"

I LOL'ed at myself over that in my first marketing class. The teacher had asked us to write down our favorite fast foods/candy and to write down their slogans and reflect on it for a minute.

Was I aware of it up to that point? Hell no. Has a changed since? Most definetly. Now i try out Twix, Milky Way etc not just good ol Sneakers and since the prices went up I haven't bought any. Same thing with Sprite still my favorite soda, but I just hardly drink soda now even if im super thirsty.

My point is that this stuff happens in subtle ways man and the more you learn on the subject the more you begin to question it. Back to the topic of this thread, GW markets to children really hard, they are the most impressionable and most likely to not 'question' their business model. It's no mistake that they put so much effort into marketing to children, I'm not aware of the history of GW but i highly doubt that this is how the hobby began given the complexity of the rules etc etc. That's another thing we learn in class, children are the best costumers for several reasons (why do you think Disney is so rich?)

So feel free to support whoever you want to support we all have to right to do so, but taking a timeout to analyze is never a bad thing. Considering other options is not evil or morally wrong or whatever. If you buy from a bootlegger now and then and still continue to support your local store it doesn't make you a bad guy or whatever.

[DarkLink]

In California, about the only history we seemed to have learned in 1st-5th grade was some crap about how native americans were peaceful and lived in perfect harmony with their environment and sang songs while a herd of critters danced around them.

In reality, there are a couple of species that were hunted to extinction, and since most of North America is not a particularly forgiving environment for poorly developed civilization living here wasn't much fun.


Edit:
Oh, and Pepsi destroys Coca-Cola in blind taste tests, yet coca-cola sells better.

[Chuck777]

The problem with K-8 History is that it is white washed for "the children's benefit". All Native Americans were Noble Savages, all settlers were either saintly religious refugees or greedy merchants; The British were tyrannical and the colonists oppressed; the southerners were bigots and the northerners right; etc., etc., etc.

It always felt like everything in American history was black or white, not shades of gray.

College History really opens up your eyes since you get to read real academic books and primary sources, rather than a text book where each chapter was voted on by a committee.

[gendoikari87]

Very similar to how (at least here in america) the history we learn up until high school is different to what we learn once we are in college and have access to more sources. Honestly in the early years of development history books are pretty much propaganda for minors.

oh it's more than just history, the brainwashing machine is everywhere, Literally, it's not some conspiracy of a few it's a mechanism in our own society.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7G4WIa-HAk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJikG-p_nho

[Wildeybeast]

1. Great you've never bought a bootleg. Does that mean that you've never EVER done ANYTHING in your life that was morally 'questionable'? Who is anyone to talk about moral high ground when there's sure to be at least one thing where they've been morally questionable in their lives?

It's like a mass murderer making fun of a bank robber for being a thief. So again don't throw stones when you live in a glass house, the internet is full of people that suddenly become 'holier than thou' at the first opportunity when knowing full well that they are far removed from it.

2. It is insulting to rape victims and their close friends/loved ones when you make that comparison. Nothing you've said so far was as insulting as that analogy. And furthermore now you want to seemingly try to convince me that buying a bootleg is an entry point for further criminal action.

I can only assume that if you were king of the world, stealing a peanut would earn someone that death penalty on account that they are sure to be engaging in heavy criminal activity in the future. Makes me wonder how long the king himself would be able to keep his head afloat THAT boat.

3. I'm delusional? Yet you feigned ignorance on the matter as if it is the owners of the company that actually do the 'work'. Do you think the CEO at GW isn't criminal in his practices? Having a monopoly IS a crime you know, and GW is not far from it in this market. For a company to make it to the top of the food chain like that they more likely than not have bend or flat out broken a few rules. Look at microsoft do you think they became so successful just on merit of hard work alone?

Come on man open your eyes to the reality of the matter, business is usually dirty by nature. The point is that WE get to choose where we spend our hard earned cash. Given the choice I don't mind spending mine on a bootlegging company owned by rich douchebags that are stealing from other rich douchebags, because a portion of my money will go to feeding those poor workers and GW is not my second cousin, I don't owe the company anything.

"Brand Loyalty" which is what you are clearly feeling is just another name for cash cow brainwashing. Go to college and take a class on marketing, and perhaps you'll see how ridiculously well GW has apparently marketed to you that you feel so strongly about bootleggers stealing their IP when it doesn't actually affect you personally. Don't be a sheep my friend, because I assure you both of these companies are wolves

4. You couldn't be more wrong. Bootleggers usually help in maintaining interest in a market, while they do affect sales, they do normally help with marketing. Because guess what? Bootleggers also want to actually sell their bootlegs. Very few products sell themselves.

What percentage of revenue do you actually believe that GW is losing from all this??

Companies thrive in a competitive enviorment, GW lacks competition, it lacks incentive, that's why there's so much complaining from long time supporters in respect to some of the actions taken by GW with their product. I've been in the hobby 7 years now while not nearly as long as some of you, it's definetly long enough to realize that 'hey this company really just does whatever the hell they want without worry of a back lash' simply because no other company can compete with them on a global scale.

Anything that gives them incentive to keep a happier consumer base is a GOOD thing for us consumers. Do you actually work for GW? Because if you don't then you are simply a consumer as am I, and as such we have a voice by means of the money we invest but let's face it what does a Dictator care about the 'voice' of a few thousand complaining in a population of a million? Without proper competition GW can simply ignore minor revenue losses (because there's people like yourself that will bend over backwards to shell out whatever amounts of money they ask for you) regardless of how much effort they put into improving the hobby or doing any of the stuff you claim that they do for the hobby. The term 'cash cow' was coined for a reason and to them you are exactly that, a cash cow.

5. That's not a contradiction I never said people would not buy from bootleggers if things were 20% off standard as they are on the internet. Because I clearly said there will ALWAYS be bootlegging. However their business would clearly not be as successful because less people would feel like the prices are too high to buy legit. It's simple math, it affects both sides. That's how markets work.

My point was that 20% off current retail prices IS what the retail price should actuallly be. Brings me to my point from earlier, we the consumers shouldn't have to be the ones scouring the internet for a reasonable price. Internet companies that sell GW stuff are getting their stuff FROM GW so GW still wins regardless there is still no competitive incentive for them what part of that is so hard to understand?

Imagine if there were only 1 company that you could buy toilet paper from in the whole world. Of course they'd charge a ridiculously high price for such a valuable commodity, and they also wholesale to other smaller companies that retail the toilet paper for a bit less in order to be able to compete with big daddy toilet paper company. But these smaller companies are few and far apart

It does not make it 'ok' because there's a few places where u can get the toilet paper a bit cheaper when everyone knows that the company making them is clearly overpricing it and making a killing no matter who they are selling it to. We all deserve to have a fair price be standard and that when we do go looking for those few companies that we are looking for a sweet deal and not a reasonable price only.

6. As to your last bit about me coming out to say that I want a cheaper price and don't care for the hobby. Haven't i stressed it enough that I would like to see a cheaper price on this stuff? I think that much is clear do I need to write it on a cloud for you?
As for not caring about the hobby, that's false. I own 40,000 pts worth of stuff through a total of 9 armies and thats not counting the money spent on glue, dice, codexes, rulebooks etc I'm fairly positive that i've spent more money than most in this hobby I have a great investment and i love it. But im no sheep and i'm wise enough to be aware that this is NOT cool, there is little competition and it's clearly an abusive system on the consumers.

If you see a bully beating on some poor sap, would you not speak out? Because I know I would. So to me this thread is the same scenario except people like you are making such a big deal that the bully is finally getting his, I say 'serves him right' if we consumers benefit from 2 companies going at it then we should celebrate it.

Or as my little cousin would put it 'If you like GW so much why dont you marry her?'


1. I know the rape anaology is offensive to people, I made that very point when someone else used it trivially in another thread. My point in doing so was to shock and to point out how utterly stupid your justification of immmoral and criminal behaviour. You can not say it is ok to do some bad things because every one does them and it makes life easier for you. It is not ok to do bad things by their very nature. If it was, they wouldn't be bad things. You suggesting that you have some sort of free pass to commit criminal actions because you feel badly treated is insulting.

2. If I was king of the world, unless you were stealing food to feed your family (which you wouldn't need to because I would ensure there was functioning state welfare system) then yes I would install draconian punishments for theft. I wouldn't execute people as I don't believe in it, not least because there are far better punishments but I'm sure I could think of something suitably horrible to deter people for criminal and immoral actions.

3.GW is not a monoply or an abusive business. If you have any sort of evidence of criminal business practices by GW, pass it to the relevant authorities, otherwise stop making stupid and spurious accusations. They do nothing to stifle the competition, in fact by charging 'high prices' they are actually pushing people to the competition. I am well aware of what brand loyalty is and how much GW marketing influences me (which by the way it doesn't since beyond White Dwarf and some internet rumours they don't do any). GW is the biggest because they have consistently made the best quality minature for the last 25 years, not because of some dubious business practices that you allude to.

4. I'm also curious as to why you think it is better to give your money to criminals who will expolit their workers at every opportunity possible rather than to a company which pays their workers a reasonable wage as well as giving them a number of other benefits.

5. Why do you not understand that if people buy from pirates and not GW, GW gets no money and the hobby dies?

[gendoikari87]

5. Why do you not understand that if people buy from pirates and not GW, GW gets no money and the hobby dies?
The hobby won't die, GW will come to their senses before that happens, and if they don't well then I guess your point about GW not being a monoply negats this point.

[Wildeybeast]

The hobby won't die, GW will come to their senses before that happens, and if they don't well then I guess your point about GW not being a monoply negats this point.

Assuming of course that people are only buying pirated stuff because they think the prices are too high, which is not the case for everyone and of course when GW reduce the prices in response to the pirate action a number of the pirate supporters will think 'good, if I keep buying from the pirates GW will go even further' and of course the pirsates can still undercut GW even if GW sold at cost since the pirate production method and materials are inferior and wages and overheads are mcuh cheaper and they don't invest in product development and I've said this all too many times before................so I'm done with this thread. I don't think I can stomach any more of people trying to justify morally reprehensible actions which damage our hobby. Thanks for the debates Gendo, have fun with the rest of the thread gus.

[gendoikari87]

Assuming of course that people are only buying pirated stuff because they think the prices are too high, which is not the case for everyone and of course when GW reduce the prices in response to the pirate action a number of the pirate supporters will think 'good, if I keep buying from the pirates GW will go even further' and of course the pirsates can still undercut GW even if GW sold at cost since the pirate production method and materials are inferior and wages and overheads are mcuh cheaper and they don't invest in product development and I've said this all too many times before................so I'm done with this thread. I don't think I can stomach any more of people trying to justify morally reprehensible actions which damage our hobby. Thanks for the debates Gendo, have fun with the rest of the thread gus.

Your welcome, but have SOME faith in humanity, it's only a handful of us that **** **** up for all of us.

[DarkLink]

I also have to wonder at the hate leveled at businesses, in this case GW. They created and maintain 40k. Without GW, and its continued efforts, we wouldn't have a game to play. Some of their business strategies don't seem to make too much sense, but why would you be suck a ******** that you would accuse GW, for no other real reason that creating a hobby that you chose to play, of being ************** themselves?

Same thing for most other businesses. Sure, they're trying to get your money. Money isn't everything, though, and they're trying to do it by raising your standard of living .So, wtf?

[DarkLink]

Here's an interesting story: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hhj3MqcZarmbxeUUIJ06m1AkKIrg?docId=e52516737 1174f369809273e718dbb71

A grad student was charged with illegally downloading and sharing 30 songs (and has admitted to doing this with even more songs). They're trying to fine him for $675,000, or $22,500 per song. Each song probably costs $0.99. It's the equivalent of stealing a couple of CDs.

Piracy might not be right, but this is absurd.

[lattd]

The question is has he shared that song? plus he hasn't not said how many other songs hes downloaded, the idea is if you hit someone so hard it might shock others into stopping.

[DarkLink]

And you think $22,500 per song for someone living off a grad student stipend is even remotely reasonable? You punish someone for their crimes, not for everyone's.

[lattd]

I didnt say it was reasonable i was saying it might explain why its high but even i think thats too much however, if he downloaded 60 + songs at 99p and allowed those songs to be shared, if 70 people download from him then it would add up but not that much.

[Chuck777]

This is a scare tactic used to intimidate the middle and lower classes into not touching pirated content. The IRS does the same thing - they ream one person to keep all us peasants in line.

[flekkzo]

And you think $22,500 per song for someone living off a grad student stipend is even remotely reasonable? You punish someone for their crimes, not for everyone's.

Cruel and unusual.

[DarkLink]

Exactly. You punish the individual for their crimes, and their crimes only, and the punishment must fit the crime. Slapping on an absurd fine and trying to make an example of the individual violates both moral requirements. That's not justice.

[Psychosplodge]

There is only justice for those that can afford to buy justice....

certainly feels like it here anyway.

[Chuck777]

There is only justice for those that can afford to buy justice....

certainly feels like it here anyway.

Ironically, our judicial system is still one of the best in the world.

Kinda sad when you think about it.

[Psychosplodge]

our? With a name like chuck I'm assuming you're a yank.
Your "justice system" over relies on "plea bargaining", so even if you are actually innocent it's often better for you to plead "guilty" to a lesser charge, because of the draconian sentence you risk on the off chance of being found guilty of the original charge...

[lattd]

Exactly. You punish the individual for their crimes, and their crimes only, and the punishment must fit the crime. Slapping on an absurd fine and trying to make an example of the individual violates both moral requirements. That's not justice.

Completely legal in the UK, people may rant and rave about the Human Rights Act but it does a lot of good although judicial interpretation has made it far too wide.

[Psychosplodge]

Completely legal in the UK, people may rant and rave about the Human Rights Act but it does a lot of good although judicial interpretation has made it far too wide.
The problem I have with it is a criminal can damage/steal any of my stuff and if I take physical action to stop it I'm infringing his human right to life... what about my right to not have a dickhead damage/steal my stuff? If said individual didn't damage/steal stuff I wouldn't have punched/stabbed/shot with crossbow said dickhead...

[lattd]

R v Palmer allows for self defence, and recent judicial rulings have allowed for relaxation on what is reasonable.

[DarkLink]

Ironically, our judicial system is still one of the best in the world.

Kinda sad when you think about it.

It actually works pretty well most of the time. There is too much freedom for frivolous lawsuits, but really the only issue I have is that the purpose of the court is to pit prosecution against defense, rather than focus exclusively on finding out what actually happened. The very idea that it's the prosecution's job to put someone in jail, guilty or not, or vice versa, is disgusting. Similarly, the idea that evidence can be barred from court for any reason whatsoever is idiotic.

[Akaiyou]

A funny story in law class

Some robber was trying to break into a house, he climbs the roof of said house in the attempt and the roof caves in (there was a weak spot apparently that had not been patched up), anyway he crashes down injures his leg and sues the home owner (for negligence!)....and wins.

Even though he was up there admittedly looking to break in so he could rob said home-owner.

Makes one want to take a a gatling gun and shoot up everyone involved in the juidicial process doesnt it?

[Renegade]

If you cant do the time don't do the crime, it really is that simple. Knowing your rights and the law help, as well as not breaking the actual letter of the law.

With Akaiyou's case, the owners should and could have sued for criminal damage to their property, and compensation for any claim made against them. They could easily have won this, it is the type of thing farmers use when ramblers try the same crap (in the UK, that is)

[Chuck777]

Similarly, the idea that evidence can be barred from court for any reason whatsoever is idiotic.

That's because our system is not predicated on justice for the individual, rather fairness of the system, which yields superior results over the long haul.

We have laws and the police must follow them. To obtain evidence in any way they see fit destroys the criminal justice system and ensures the creation of a totalitarian state. I do, however, believe many of the rules are too complex and too apt to be finagled by defense attorneys, thus leading to criminals going free on the basis of a technicalities.

Still, fairness of the system stops lynchings, excessive waste and police states, it is the best system we as a species have devised.

[DarkLink]

So charge the police officers appropriately. That's what the laws governing that are for. Abuse of power is abuse of power, and should be treated as such. But truth is truth, and to leave out any evidence is to intentionally lead yourself away from an accurate verdict.

Instead of allowing or disallowing evidence based on the source, instead be prepared to level charges against the source as appropriate. If you charge and fire all the police officers willing to search without a warrant, there won't be many willing to do that. Police don't like risking their career over some punk.


Edit:
And I do think, as a whole, the justice system works pretty well. It will never work perfectly, there are a lot of things that can't and this is one of them, but much of the problem isn't with the courts themselves but with the jumble of laws they are instructed to enforce.

A case in point as to why we have a justice system like we do it the Travyon Martin case. Zimmerman had half the country forming a lynching mob, and now that there's been some investigation pretty much all the lawyers looking at the case are saying that all the evidence supports Zimmerman and the charges against him almost certainly won't stand. Turns out mobs aren't that good at doling out justice, which is precisely the first think I though when I heard about the public outcry on the case.

[Chuck777]

If we allowed justice to be dispensed by vote, then anyone who looks guilty would be lynched.

If we allowed the government free reign, then there would be no need for trials, jackbooted thugs would dispense justice upon their whims.

If we allow the system to regulate itself, then we would have long drawn out trials and many who are guilty get off Scott free.

These are the three fundamental based from which our system can be derived. Ensuring fairness of the process has proven to be the most equitable of the three systems because it does not pander to the whims of emotion nor does it give full authority to totalitarianism. The system is not perfect, no system could be but it is the best we can create as of yet.

The biggest danger to the system is the media, which has the power to influence the masses and foment ruinous behavior.

[the jeske]

If we allowed justice to be dispensed by vote, then anyone who looks guilty would be lynched.
I see no problem with that as long as goverments accept that. Law enforcment on the lowest level is more efficient when it is enforced by a carefuly monitored and controled small comunity.


If we allowed the government free reign, then there would be no need for trials, jackbooted thugs would dispense justice upon their whims.
Yes that is why a law system is there . I dude opposses the goverment or the community as a whole the he has to be stoped , else the community or goverment shows weakness which is as good as showing everyone that it has no power.



Ensuring fairness of the process has proven to be the most equitable of the three systems because it does not pander to the whims of emotion nor does it give full authority to totalitarianism. The system is not perfect, no system could be but it is the best we can create as of yet.
but that is just a fun theory . good for the masses but it has nothing to do with actual real life . A powerful man is untouchable . A powerful group [lets say doctors or jurists or the military or the militia ] will always judge itself . If a powerful group or man wants someone judged then it doesnt matter for what or how they will do it . It will happen . And before someone says its an eastern thing I would like to point out that you guys are doing just that all the time . Osama ? no trail . Israal vs anything ? no trail for anyone ever . US ignores other countries borders and laws , doesnt let war criminals be judged by courts in the countries where they broke the law[but they have no problems with trying to judge other people under their own law even if the only law that was broken was the US one ] .

that system is an illusion , I rather like ours . It is more clear . You know where you stand with it , it doesnt give false hope to people [which means less depresion , so it kind of a makes people happy. or at least not as depresed] .




Abuse of power is abuse of power, and should be treated as such
could you explain how is it possible to abuse power , when you have it . Because either you have power and then it is your right to use it or you dont have the right to use it [and then have power , but your superiors have or some organization/group of people]. This is a part of the western sociaty I never understood . It is impossible for a militia man to abuse his power , unless he is stupid . Technicly he could try to lets say stop a military car for speeding or do a strip search on someone from the major office . But that is not abusing power that is being stupid , because those actions come back on him , his unit and probably his family like a ton of bricks .



Slapping on an absurd fine and trying to make an example of the individual violates both moral requirements. That's not justice.
so lets say I steal from someone in the goverment [like a luxury car] or worse rob something from the royal family , you think they would judge me under the same laws as a guy who "borrowed" an old opel from his neighbour ? Justice is always tiered . It is different for people and those who are unimportant.

[Kettu]

SoB aren't a big seller, they never were, they're ecconomically unviable and yet they STILL dedicate time and effort in them, not as much as you would like, sure, but they did. People complain about Sisters, but who many sisters players do you actually know? Compared to everything else? And the few you did know bought the models years ago and haven't bought anything new since. That is a buisness decision, they're not going to throw money away.

There is several big problems with this.

Sisters have never been really attempted to be sold in the first place. We don't know how well they could sell because they never got a chance.
In 2nd ed their own codex ttold you that they were not an army, they were an ally force who had the option to go solo but you would be really crippling yourself to do so.
3rd ed then came out three months later.

They didn't get a codex then until mid 2004. They received barely any new minis, bad rules that solidly put them in any meta 'low tier', had enough of their fluff screwed to drive away a large portion (As I'm given to understand) of their previous player base. had no plastic options except for a Space Marine tank and again, the codex tells you that they are written to be an ally force and a 'collectors' force.
4th ed then came out three months later. (I'm seeing a pattern here)

Nothing since then has happened that would give reason that an under-preforming army, with bad rules, with all metal minis, with limited range and no advertising (Appearing in WD or store display counts as advertising) to start selling.

They don't sell bad because they are a 'market risk', they sell bad because GW never attempted TO SELL THEM!

Yet, DE got an update. A force that has sold as poorly as Sisters have for a long time got an update. A MASSIVE update.
If a competent update and minis for the Sisters is 'throw money away' then what the DE got must have been GW going bankrupt.

Probably the biggest reason Sisters don't get an update isn't a business one but rather a design one. To put it simply, no one on the design team currently gives a s**t about them. Andy was the last one on the team to care and he quit/got fired/got retrenched/retired/all of the above/something else (Please fill in the blank)_____.

[DarkLink]

Oh, I was afraid our entertainment was gone.


I see no problem with that as long as goverments accept that. Law enforcment on the lowest level is more efficient when it is enforced by a carefuly monitored and controled small comunity.

Do you even know what the words lynching and mob mean?



Yes that is why a law system is there . I dude opposses the goverment or the community as a whole the he has to be stoped , else the community or goverment shows weakness which is as good as showing everyone that it has no power.

...?



but that is just a fun theory . good for the masses but it has nothing to do with actual real life . A powerful man is untouchable . A powerful group [lets say doctors or jurists or the military or the militia ] will always judge itself . If a powerful group or man wants someone judged then it doesnt matter for what or how they will do it . It will happen . And before someone says its an eastern thing I would like to point out that you guys are doing just that all the time .

I feel sorry for you.



Osama ? no trail .

Enemy combatant. We did invade two different nations to hunt down Osama and the rest of his high command. And he did publicly take responsibility, even though he likely wasn't that involved.



Israal vs anything ? no trail for anyone ever .

Do I look like I'm from Israel?



that system is an illusion , I rather like ours . It is more clear . You know where you stand with it , it doesnt give false hope to people [which means less depresion , so it kind of a makes people happy. or at least not as depresed] .

The difference between your system and ours is that you are a doormat. Your best hope in life is that no one steps on you. Good luck with that.



could you explain how is it possible to abuse power , when you have it .

You lack the capacity to understand it, just give up and let the grownups talk.



because those actions come back on him , his unit and probably his family like a ton of bricks .

so lets say I steal from someone in the goverment [like a luxury car] or worse rob something from the royal family ,

I'll explain something to you that you're not understanding.

Here, it's pretty hard to mess with someone. If a doctor thinks that got poor service at, say, a restaurant, the best he can do is complain to the manager. The manager might verbally reprimand the waiter, and it the waiter has been doing a bad job in the past he might even get fired. But if the doctor starts yelling at the manager, or demands that he fires the employee, he'll be escorted from the building by security.

Same thing with a politician, but on top of that it would be all over the newspapers and probably ruin the politicians career.

Being part of the 1% has its benefits, but completely controlling the lives of the people beneath them is not one of them.



you think they would judge me under the same laws as a guy who "borrowed" an old opel from his neighbour ? Justice is always tiered . It is different for people and those who are unimportant.

Nope, you'd get roughly the same charges and same sentencing. The judges run the courts, and trying to bribe or manipulate a judge is not a good idea. The jury is pretty carefully selected from a random group of peers screened to ensure they don't have a stake in the outcome, and bribing or manipulating them is an equally bad idea. Some rich guy tries bribing someone, and the whole case will probably get thrown out of court.

[lattd]

Heck if a jury member in the England spoke to a defendant in a case they could end up in jail for contempt of court. There's been cases where the trial location was moved and the jury re-picked just to make sure the trial was fair.

[DarkLink]

There are some cases where they literally can't hold trial because they can't find a suitable, non-biased, jury. Going back to the Travyon Martin case, I'll bet it will be a nightmare to find unbiased jurors if it goes to court, thanks to some of the media's character assassination campaign against Zimmerman. Most of America probably still thinks Zimmerman was racially motivated, when that was purely made up by the media. I think it was NBC that actually fired a number of employees after an internal investigation that found that they carefully edited the 911 phone call to make Zimmerman sound racist when there was no evidence of that in real life.

[DarkLink]

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061025/014811.shtml

Here's a series of articles about moving away from the economics of scarcity that's very relevant to the topic. Most modern economics are fundamentally based on the concept of scarcity, that there is a limited amount of resources that have to be carefully distributed. Things like ideas, however, are infinite. All it takes to transfer one is to describe it, and then it cannot be taken back. You cannot treat an idea as if it were scarce, so if we ever want to figure out how to properly treat copyright laws we need to start thinking about economic systems that do not rely on scarcity.


Edit:
One of the points made in one of the articles is that copyright infringement is a fact of the marketplace, and can only be minimization by adapting to the changing market. Begging for special protection from congress or relying on DMRs is only going to ineffectually address the symptoms while ignoring the underlying problem, that the content producer needs to shift their production and marketing to match the new lack of scarcity.

[daboarder]

actually jeske has some points. The justice system in the states is all kinds of screwed, I mean you've got lindsay lohan stealing a 10000 dollare necklace at the age of 23 and getting a slap on the wrist because "shes just a troubled child" and on the other hand your locking up some teenager, whose not even allowed to drink, for 6 years because he stole a hundred bucks from a service station. Or your throwing a highschool student set for a brilliant career in jail because she missed 10 days of school in a month. If that's not a completely F'ed system I have no idea what is, its not fair, its not justice for all and its certainly not something I'd put up with in Australia.

[DarkLink]

Ummm... not only did you kind of miss the point of our comments (that an impartial trial, judge, and jury is vital, even if our system isn't perfect), but you missed jeske's point as well (since it's not perfect, we should just let rich politicians and/or unruly mobs control every aspect of our lives, because somehow that's better).

None of us have claimed the west has a perfect justice system. In fact, we've pointed out a few complaints. That's not what we've been talking about, though.

[daboarder]

right whoops

[DarkLink]

But, yeah, no matter where you go, you'll somehow always find stupid people. There are some laws governing that: http://www.ecotopia.com/webpress/stupidity/

1. Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation.

2. The probability that a certain person be stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person.

3. A stupid person is a person who caused losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.

4. Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid individuals. In particular non-stupid people constantly forget that at all times and places and under any circumstances to deal and/or associate with stupid people always turns out to be costly mistake.

5. A stupid person is the most dangerous type of person.

The corollary of the Law is that

A stupid person is more dangerous than a bandit.




Here's another interesting article related to this: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-03-18/random-selection-could-improve-democracy/2653044

[Brettila]

Please pardon my ignorance, but exactly who is this discussi9on about anyway? :confused:

[daboarder]

this one? you don't need to worry about this one, I think its being left alone because of pity. was really really good around the p30 mark though.

[Brettila]

No, I mean the Chinese company doing the pirating. This is the first time I've heard it mentioned. I was just curious.

[DarkLink]

Just go with it.

[Daemonette666]

Please pardon my ignorance, but exactly who is this discussi9on about anyway? :confused:
The company they are talking about had the following website: http://www.miniatureshobby.com/ , but GW closed down the website.

Then 5 minutes later they opened with a new website, and sent a general blur b email to their customers letting them know. The new website: http://www.miniature-sales.com/ was then also shut down it seems as it also does not work.

There are no other links or released websites from the company as far as I know. GW would have shut them down ASAP if they knew about it, so if anyone does know the web address, they are keeping their mouths shut.

Wouldn't you want to keep your source of cheaper priced higher quality resin miniatures to yourself if you knew that GW would shut down your supply source if you told anyone how to order the miniatures over the internet. I would not blame them for keeping it a secret.

I personally have only experienced a few flaws with Forge worlds Resin models, though they tend to warp with the heat a lot. GWs fine cast I will not buy as it has so many flawed pock marked and air hole ridden models being released, even with them trying to repair the problems.

If another company can make Resin models with such high detail and for a cheaper price, then GW has to pull their socks up and produce a far better quality miniature, and drop the prices they sell miniatures for in Australia.

By the way, I had never heard of the company this thread is about until the other day when this thread started. I would like to have gotten some good quality cheaper priced miniatures. Get some of the money GW has been over charging me for the last 5 years.

[Daemonette666]

Oh and I found the website links n a google search on The Traitor Legion website, a thread discussing the same thing there had the web addresses listed.

[gridespider]

Wouldn't you want to keep your source of cheaper priced higher quality resin miniatures to yourself if you knew that GW would shut down your supply source if you told anyone how to order the miniatures over the internet. I would not blame them for keeping it a secret.......... yup.

[jonsgot]

While fully against anything against the law. Isn't UK patent law only valid for 20 years at which point anyone is able to make copies of models? There is a lot of old stuff GW don't make I would love to get my hands on. Exo armour terminators, imperial robots, jet bikes, MK1 Landraider - yes the forgeworrld model is better but £90!

[lattd]

We have a design law in the UK as well, so patent are the detail on how something works design protects what it looks like and its the life plus 25 years in the UK so GW existance plus 25 years once they cease to be.

[wittdooley]

Holy thread necromancy, batman!

[Wildeybeast]

And this is a thread that really should have been left dead and buried.

[techsoldaten]

You know, in a way, every time someone does a conversion of a model or a counts-as army, they are doing the same thing. While I know there is no exchange of money, there is an attempt to deprive Games Workshop of cash for models they would otherwise realize in a legitimate transaction.

Seriously, I don't use certain units because they have not released models for them. I am loathe to breach this way of supporting the company I hold in such high regard, and consider people who do such to be IP Challenged. We threw a player out of our gaming group because of all his homemade Trukks and Killer Kans.

[Mr Mystery]

Erm.....no?

A recaster is a very different thing to a scratchbuilder. A recaster seeks to produce knock off goods for financial gain. A scatchbuilder doesn't.

[Col.Gravis]

You know, in a way, every time someone does a conversion of a model or a counts-as army, they are doing the same thing. While I know there is no exchange of money, there is an attempt to deprive Games Workshop of cash for models they would otherwise realize in a legitimate transaction.

Seriously, I don't use certain units because they have not released models for them. I am loathe to breach this way of supporting the company I hold in such high regard, and consider people who do such to be IP Challenged. We threw a player out of our gaming group because of all his homemade Trukks and Killer Kans.

I dont know whether to laugh or cry at the stupidity of that :rolleyes:

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

We threw a player out of our gaming group because of all his homemade Trukks and Killer Kans.:/ that's actually a really unpleasant thing to do. Reconsider that; your gaming group just valued plastic toy soldiers over a friend, and that's pretty sad.

[gcsmith]

Love him having a go at conversions, conversions are inspired by GW. Also a lot of head office scratch build.

[Psychosplodge]

Conversions cost more, especially now you can't order individual components and have to buy the entire unit for that one component you want...

[gendoikari87]

Conversions cost more, especially now you can't order individual components and have to buy the entire unit for that one component you want...

have you not heard of the war store or bits and kits?

[Psychosplodge]

By the time I've paid postage and possible customs charges and waited I may as have bought the kit...

oh the second ones uk based, and no i hadnt lol

Thanks

[gendoikari87]

By the time I've paid postage and possible customs charges and waited I may as have bought the kit...

oh the second ones uk based, and no i hadnt lol

Thanks

I think there's one or two more that is UK based as well. Can't remember their names though.

[Psychosplodge]

Now I know they exist I'll go look, I'm sure one of the super posters will know...

[wittdooley]

Here's a Few:

www.bitzbox.co.uk/
www.letthedicedecide.co.uk/

I believe some of the ebay stores like Hoard O Bitz will also ship internationally for less than $5.

[Psychosplodge]

Cheers

[gendoikari87]

Here's a Few:

www.bitzbox.co.uk/
www.letthedicedecide.co.uk/

I believe some of the ebay stores like Hoard O Bitz will also ship internationally for less than $5.

hoard is amazing, so amazing in fact that they can't really stay stocked. luckily all I need is half of two defilers.