Fire Forge vs Fire Knife

[Panxer]

Now that I've played the Tau for about a year now and suffered countless losses and embarrassment by the hands of just about every army out there (yes, even chaos daemons), I feel I've finally gotten to a point where I can kick the training wheels off of my Tau cadre, and I want to talk about XV8 loadouts.

Fire Knife is the mainstay and most common configuration for XV8 suits. I have no argument against it. It's a vicious config. It can force heavy infantry to take unvul-saves at 24", BUT I argue that it's kind of lacking as an all around weapon load out. The highest armor it can deal with is 12, yes you have range, but what good is it when it can't even stop front armor on a predator or leman russ?

So I offer this: I've had a consistently positive and effective result from the Fire Forge load out. I argue that it's more effective and less expensive for what it does. Ok, it can't fire 24", BUT it's a melta gun. It causes instant death at S8, it's AP1, can pop 14 armor (without the melta rule), and you've got missiles which can have so many purposes at 36", S7 AP4, i.e. can handle up to 13 armor and defeat troopers with 4+ armor saves.

Lastly, please don't think that I mean to say that Fire Knife is ineffective, or that you shouldn't use it. I'm NOT saying that, BUT I would suggest that it's only really effective as a 'support' load out. When I field it, it's usually with a HQ unit with bodyguards with F.K. load outs, while the commander sits pretty with with a cyclic ion blaster riding close to the other suits and picking off any infantry that wants to get close enough.

have you had any success with a particular XV load out? Let us know!

[Rapture]

For XV-8s to be effective, you have to be shooting (preferably two weapons) every turn. They are your only real hitters outside of railguns. A fusion blaster's small range means that your opportunities to shoot become limited. Having missile pods as a second means that you can still lash out, but not with low ap. The best way to handle those rogue tanks or dreadnought that you run into while JSJing is to bring a commander with fusion blaster. This is much more flexible than loading fusion blaster onto a whole squad as the commander can branch off (or split fire if you spent the 5 points) to handle threats that the squad will be ineffective against. That said, I run a full squad of Fireknives (plasma missile) and a full squad of Sunforges (melta plasma). The Sunforges are perfect for offense and defense. They either go hunting against tank heavy lists or wait to munch on terminators that I spill out of a landraider.

The gold standard is always killing marines. A tactical squad will ruin your day if it charges you. are three fusion blasters enough to whittle them to the point where the can't do serious damage? It comes down to maneuvering and careful positioning, but I find the answer to generally be no.

[ElectricPaladin]

On the one hand, the Fireforge is good for killing vehicles, and everyone knows that vehicles are basically the king of Warhammer 40k, right?

Right?

Actually, in my metas - and probably in a lot of other metas - people don't play what's "best." They play what they like, what they've always played, and they trust in their skill to get them wins. I'm going to assume that you're talking about a similar meta, because if you're talking about highly competitive tournament play, then nothing this n00b can say will be particularly useful or interesting to you.

In my opinion, the Fireforge is interesting, but less reliable and versatile than the Fireknife. The Fireknife combines two hard-hitting and versatile weapons. Between the plasma rifle and the missile pod you can pop light vehicles (like transports), kill heavy infantry (like Space Marines), and do it at a pretty incredible range.

The Fireforge, on the other hand, only has one weapon that can engage enemies at a distance, and while that weapon has the strength to kill most anything, it hasn't got a super low AP. As a result, I think Fireforges would struggle to take on anything but their intended target of vehicles. I also worry that with the current abundance of weapons that are capable of cutting through XV8 armor, Fireforges would have a hard time closing with their target.

Ultimately, the question is this: why bother trying to get a Str 8 meltagun to within 12'' or 6'' of a tank when you can pop it from 72'' away with a Str 10 Ap 1 railgun?

That said, I think Fireforges still have a role to play. Specifically, I think Fireforges make the best "suicide drop" XV8s. They're cheap, so if they mishap or fail to kill their target it's not necessarily a catastrophic loss. You can Deep Strike them comfortable that if they they deviate too far they still have their missile pods, which still stand a chance of popping their target and if they land on target, they can use both weapons and stand an outrageous chance of success.

A Fireforge variant which is particularly useful in this role swaps out the multi-tracker for a targeting array, trading increased rate of fire for increased reliability of whichever weapon their drop makes the best choice.

[Panxer]

No, I'm not a tourney player. I've played tourney's before, and I can honestly say I don't like what it turns the game and the players into. It takes the joy right out of it for me. You have two otherwise normal people who place baby dolls on a 6'x4' and tell them there's a gold cheetoe or cash they're competing for, and watch ordinary normal people turn into some of the most intense, rule lawyering, minutia squabbling, points squeezing, infantile, wrecks of humanity I've ever laid eyes upon outside of a warzone. It's just not fun for me.

Not denigrating people who do, if that's your bag, power to you. It's just not for me. The fastest way to murder the joy of any game is to make it competitive and watch people who were friends 10 minutes ago become bitter sniping enemies by the end of the sweaty, BO fogged, combos and pepsi day at your local game store. To me it's petty, divisive, and just not what I'm into. Wa wa, it's 'war', blah blah. 'If you don't like it, then GET OUT!'. Thank you. I did. That's enough of my thoughts on 'what's wrong with 40K', now on to the TAU.

Fire Forge. One thing I've learned about playing tau (competitively or not) is that you have to have multiple redundancies. You know your S10 big sticks are going to die first, or they will be the primary target of your enemy, knowing that they can kill anything out there with a 4+. So pop, there goes your hammerhead, what else do you have that can kill vehicles? Plasma? Missiles? Only up to Armor 13 if you're lucky enough to roll a 6(and even then you're only scoring a glance).

So what do you do? 9 XV8's in a blob with drones, meltas, missiles, and multi trackers can be quite an intimidating sight to either troops or vehicles. Oh, they can't handle a marine squad or they have weapons that beat XV8 armor...ok. That's why Tau cheezus invented drones, or marker beacons so they can deepstrike. Ok. Now, they can't close with the enemy? WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO?! You're fielding Tau! The meltas are completely defensive and reservist in nature. Knowing you only have a 12" range, would you really want to charge a land raider full of paladins knowing full well that if you pop the LR, you're going to lose a whole squad on the next turn? Why would you do that unless you know that your entire strategy has crumpled and by this point you're just throwing whatever you can at the enemy to slow them down enough to prevent you forces from being tabled on turn 3.

So the suits are gone...so what do we have left that can kill vehicles and possibly do some damage...Fire warriors with carbines and EMP grenades... Starting to see my point? It's not that they're the star unit, it's that they have something to contribute should plan A go to pot...which it always will.

Use the bwarking fireknife! It's a super good awesome groovy meta cool load out. But when it comes to overlap and redundancy, it's not that good when you have to cover for the rail guns you just lost and your whole strategy just blew away like a kite with no string.

Are you beginning to see my point? The more overlap you have the less its going to hurt the team overall when you lose something important.

[Panxer]

Wasn't looking to sound hostile. The fire knife load out is a viable and a very important and time tested XV configuration, however it's probably shouldn't be used as the primary load out. Synergy. Synergy's the word here. Spread your capabilities evenly over your cadre so when one tendril of the Kraken is cut off, there are several others there to take up the slack.

[ElectricPaladin]

So, here's the thing - what are your XV8s for?

I agree that synergy is the name of the game in 40k. But so is having a clear idea of what each unit is for, so you can use it effectively in that role. Because list building in 40k is a zero sum game (every point you spend on A is a point you can't spend on B, C, or D), you need to make sure your list can deal with everything it will encounter, to the proportion that it is likely to encounter it.

That said, this is not as big a deal in other codices. Space Marines, for example, have the options to stick tank-popping weapons in their main battle squads and on the roofs of all their tanks. The Imperial Guard works the same way. Because out codex is old and out faction is young, we have fewer options. Our only highly versatile unit is the XV8 team. XV88s, Fire Warriors, Piranhas, Hammerheads... very few of the things in our codex are terribly flexible. Is there a way to twin-link a Hammerhead's railgun so it can be used to reliably take out armor? No. Is there a way to imbed rail rifles in a squad of Fire Warriors? No again. Can you put a blast/template weapon on XV88s so they can see use against hordes? Neat idea, but no. Most of our units do what they do - some well, some poorly - and they don't have options that let them do something else.

To take this idea further, of our highly static units, what do we have easy access to? We have somewhat overpriced infantry with a moderately high-Str weapon - great for killing GEQs. We have one of the best tank-killing weapons in the game - the railgun - great for anti-vehicle fire. We have a good, high-Str large-blast template good for taking on hordes. But when it comes to taking on MEQs and TEQs, we only have a couple of high-Str, low AP weapons, and those weapons are the Missile Pod and Plasma Rifle, and you can only put it on XV8s.

Well, that's not entirely true. We also have rail rifles, which we can field via Sniper Drones and Pathfinders. Both of these have their own problems.

I'm kind of running out of steam here. What I mean to say is that XV8s are the best way to get reliable anti MEQ and TEQ weapons onto the field. You can use them to kill vehicles, but we have other - better - options for that. In our next codex, that will probably change. For now, however, I don't see the utility of Fireforges.

That said, you can probably run a list with Fireforges. I think the best way to use them would be to fall back on our other options for killing MEQs and TEQs. Probably if you had some backup railguns - a couple of XV88 teams, or an XV88 team and a Hammerhead - and used your remaining Heavy slot for two or three Sniper Drone teams. Or, alternately, you could go the Pathfinder route and put some railgun snipers with them. I still think that the lack of AP2 weaponry would hurt you.

[Panxer]

All good points.

My experience is that yes, rapid fire 24", S6 AP2 plasma rifles are probably the best weapon for taking out heavy targets the Tau have at range, BUT for 20pts? I can do better. 12pts, and I have a melta gun which can do the same thing (minus the range) as a plasma rifle, only better.

What are my suits for? 2 things. Either deepstrike- kill something and die squads, or blob and swab massive, mobile and sweeping fire support. 3 squads of 3 XV8's with a HQ squad (or two) with TL missiles, plasma rifles and a cyclic ion blaster. They take away a lot of attention from my railguns because they're not going to want melta jump infantry busting up their flanks while they're getting hammered by anti armor from the other side of the board.

And I beg to differ on how static the Tau are right now. The new forgeworld update has given remote sensor towers which offer TL markerlights and allow a unit (per tower in the squad) to count as TL. There's also the remote drone sentry turrets which can deepstrike (but are probably better used as missile or melta defensive close in support). The new Hammerhead has TL plasma cannons, missile pods (assault 2 blast), and the Tau's first multimelta equvalent which fires TL 24" melta blast. Tetras eliminate the need for expensive pathfinder squads; and there are a number of upgrades the commander XV's get as well. It's really worth the investment, sans a new codex of course.

So my recommendation? Sniper Drones hanging out near sensor towers, Firewarriors with cabrines and EMP grenades threatening tanks, tetras firing marker support all over the field, sentry turrets guarding broadsides with shield drones/generators with an ethereal to make them fearless and provide morale support for everyone else, HQ XV squads running amok with plasma and TL missile pods, and giant blobs of melta+missile jump infantry drawing from heavy marker support, while hammerheads blast what's left over.

You do enough of that razzle dazzle, and worst case, your enemy will split fire and not know who to concentrate fire on, and best case scenario he'll split his forces and rely on brute force to soften you up while you just judo flip their tanks with whatever they forgot to fire at in the previous turn.

[Urza8188]

If you are into kamikaze meltas I find that piranhas are so much more effective than crisis... granted you are spending 65-75 pts per melta but you are gaurinteed get in where you need to be and pull your shot. Even if you miss they get in the way and if they blow up you still have the drones to contest or pull pot shots. Imodeepstrike meltas are just too unreliable and if you put them on your backfield they wont get to shoot before the enemys right on top of your army.

[Panxer]

Well if that trick works your pony then go for it! I'm not telling ANYONE how to build their list! I'm just speaking from experience that a 12 pt melta is worth more (over all) than a 20pt plasma rifle.

Honesty? I've never been able to realistically work piranhas into my lists. If I ever use them, it's as a single boat with two seeker missiles, target array, disruption pods, and a melta. Best option for my experience is to have them move flat out up the flank, try to fire both seekers, fly up to something close enough, use the melta (typically miss), then it dies in place. This is why I sawed the wings off and magnetized them so I can field them as tetras.

[Anggul]

I like Deathrains (TL missile pods), they put out a lot of accurate, reliable and high strength shots. I run three pairs, one with flamer to hurt swarms which get too close and one with a gun drone to take a rogue missile or lascannon shot. They've worked really well for me so far.

[ElectricPaladin]

I like Deathrains (TL missile pods), they put out a lot of accurate, reliable and high strength shots. I run three pairs, one with flamer to hurt swarms which get too close and one with a gun drone to take a rogue missile or lascannon shot. They've worked really well for me so far.

I use Deathrains as long range fire support battlesuit in any game large enough to include more than one Crisis Team. They are really great. The combination of 36'' range and Jump-Shoot-Jump gives them an incredible capacity to take advantage of cover while blasting the bejeesus out of heavy infantry and light vehicles... Slap a Targeting Array on that S.O.B., and he's hitting all the things all the time.

Personally, I don't even bother giving one of them a flamer. I've got other stuff for taking out hordes, like my Hammerhead, or even just Fire Warriors rapid-firing into the crowd.

[Panxer]

Unfortunately Tau don't have much in the way of template weapons. The new forgeworld expansion allows for a TL assault 2 blast S7 AP4, AND there's of course the Airburst Fragmentation Projector which is nice in a pinch for those pesky things with stealth or are in cover.

The remote sensor towers are nice for making fire warriors twin linked and they also have a TL marker light which makes them hit on 3+ and TL = a ton of dead whatever.

[Anggul]

I use Deathrains as long range fire support battlesuit in any game large enough to include more than one Crisis Team. They are really great. The combination of 36'' range and Jump-Shoot-Jump gives them an incredible capacity to take advantage of cover while blasting the bejeesus out of heavy infantry and light vehicles... Slap a Targeting Array on that S.O.B., and he's hitting all the things all the time.

Personally, I don't even bother giving one of them a flamer. I've got other stuff for taking out hordes, like my Hammerhead, or even just Fire Warriors rapid-firing into the crowd.

Well you need to take a third piece of wargear, and the only thing cheaper than a flamer (and less useful by far unless you're up against the Stormlord) is a blacksun filter. It keeps the suit cheap and still has a use.

2 Crisis Battlesuits, both with TL missile pods, 1 with flamer, 1 with gun drone comes to exactly 100pts. I run three of these squads for only 300pts.

[Tauownz]

PR/MP isn't the be all end all of loadouts. BC/MP isn't too shabby. If your xv8's are 6" away from a tank that means your in most cases on their side of the table and you are going to die real soon. XV8's should be used as infantry or meq killers not tank busters imo. They succeed best at distance. XV88's handle armour, xv8's everything else. Kroot to screen and tetras for markerlights. If your deadset on S7 shots, try out the plasma cannon turret for the hammerhead. Wicked.

[ElectricPaladin]

BC/MP isn't too shabby.

I used to feel that way, but then I noticed that our codex already has a lot of Str 5/Ap 5 shots and a lot of Burst Cannons. When I've got Burst Cannons on my Hammerheads, Burst Cannons on my Devilfish, Burst Cannons on my Piranhas (if I field them), and better ranged Str 5 shots on my Fire Warriors, what do I need more Str 5 shots for? I think you're better off looking for something that provides a different Str or AP to diversify the kinds of fire you're putting out there.

[Tauownz]

I totally agree EP, it really depends who your opponent is imo. I play a lot of PR/MP, that's my normal loadout. However vs. some armies ie: daemons/orks I think the more shots the better. I agree though, we do need more S6 weapons or S4-S5 hi-capacity low a/p or more rending. My favorite weapon for an xv8 is the cib, 5 shots, rends. I'm hoping that becomes a normal weapons choice in the new dex. Tau need more multi shot weapons. And at 24" that would be king.

[Panxer]

"PR/MP isn't the be all end all of loadouts. BC/MP isn't too shabby. If your xv8's are 6" away from a tank that means your in most cases on their side of the table and you are going to die real soon. XV8's should be used as infantry or meq killers not tank busters imo. They succeed best at distance. XV88's handle armour, xv8's everything else. Kroot to screen and tetras for markerlights. If your deadset on S7 shots, try out the plasma cannon turret for the hammerhead. Wicked."

I apparently haven't made myself clear enough. XV8's aren't tank hunters (unless you're using the deepstrike,kill tank, die in place tactic). The key here is synergy and fire control.

You have tanks and 88's which can handle the work load of your anti meq capacity. Your enemy knows this and will seek to stop them as first priority (even though they should be shooting at markerlight shooters- but that's just my opinion)....so your tanks and heavy's go down...what have you got? Maybe firewarriors with EMP grenades? Maybe a seeker missile on a wayward devilfish or piranha? How about a blob of 9 JSJ XV8's with meltas and missiles sweeping across the board killing everything... Use them all to support one another and build multiple redundancies in case your battle plan gets swept out the door on turn 1 (it always will)

It's like the Russian battle tactics (Tau are space fish communists after all.) First you fight your enemy at range. You run out of ammo, you fight up close with your rifle. Your rifle breaks? You strike with your fists and feet. If those become broken, then you fight with your head. If that becomes broken you fight with your teeth...and so on and so forth. It's worked for me. If i can negate armor saves, wound almost everything on a 2+, kill tanks, and/or force invul saves while diverting attention away from my heavies...then I've won.

[ksoh75]

I'm asking a stupid question......yes maybe? But are Forge World items legit in GW tournies or do local tournies you guys n gals play in let you use Forge World??

Panzer, you keep mentioning them...and I have the PDF and LOOOVE what some of this stuff can do but are they legit in the tourny scene?

But I agree.....Fire Forge is a suicide squad. There is no way in hell at 1850 I'm risking a squad of them for 1 turn. Now don't get me wrong, might be viable if you can DS them in on or near an objective towards the end of a game to contest but this is when and only I would do this.

Or even go agains a transport of squishies....

I love my '88s

Railguns for the WIN

[Tauownz]

I don't think their legit in big tournies like NOVA or adepticons type stuff, but if you stop in the GW or LGS you should be fine. The first page of the pdf states that " the stamp indicates that the units intended to be used in standard games of 40k". You should be good to go, I play every few weeks at my GW and there is never a problem, nor is it when we play at each others house's on our own tables. I'm a big fan of the TL PLasma Cannon on the hammerhead. I have been running 1 for a while with much success. That and of course tetras are now boss. I agree not a big fan of fusion suits(fireforge) you have to get too close to be effective and even if you pop a tank, next turn your dead. Too much of a points sink doing that for me at least. Best to keep suits at range popping whatever from afar. Enemy gets your xv8's in CC Tau are done. XV88'S all day.

[Panxer]

88's ARE boss... a unit of 3 with shield gens and plasma, hanging out with an ethereal with shield drones, and flanked by two sentry drone turrets with plasma or meltas, and screened by kroot....mmm durable.

Sensor Towers...would they work with 88's? They have the ability to make something able to re-roll misses, but with a unit that's already TL, how would THAT work?

Tetras ARE boss too! 55pts with a target array, comes stock with a disruption pod, and you've got a mobile pathfinder team for 1/2 the points!

The rest of it's pretty junk if you ask me. The tank mods are cool, but not powerful enough for me to actually get them, the XV commander variants don't have anything that can't already be equipped from standard wargear (unless you want 2 shas'els with iridium armor), the mounted greater knarloc is pretty cool but takes up a heavy support choice, the cavalry baby knarlocs are cool looking, but don't really do what the kroot don't already do and they can't sweeping advance.

Lastly, then I'll shut up (pause for gentle clapping), I'm a fan of the melta; what it gives up in range it more than makes up for in punch and mobility. Am I going to run screaming up on someone so I can get the melta rule? NO! That's what missile pods are for! But! If I have all my suits on the table and all in one place, I'm just going to make a mobile firing line and sweep across the table, missiles and meltas roaring, with my command squad with plasma, missiles, and ion blasters purring. I'm tellin ya. It's pretty nasty.

Now what I really want is AP4 burst cannons

[Tauownz]

I imagine sensor towers would work on broadsides, roll 2 dice as normal to hit, if both are below 3 than re-roll one dice. You have to be within 6" of the tower and it can only help one unit per turn I think. Tetras are nice, I run 2 pairs, one in each pair has a TL so it can split his lights from the other. I kind of like the tank mod with the plasma cannon TL Hvy 4 S7 AP3 w/ burst cannons, that's 10 shots from one tank per turn. 4 of which you get to re-role, throw in a 1 markerlight you hitting on 2's. AP4 burst cannon would be nice as would a bump in range. 24" would be killer.

[ElectricPaladin]

No - a given die can only be rerolled once.