Where would the world be without GW?

[DrLove42]

Firstly the ground rules;

- This isn't a "What if GW closed tomorrow!" thread
- Nor is it "XX company sucks" or "YY company are so much better"
- I'm also well aware GW didn't invent the hobby, and it existed before them
- I may alos not know all the facts. If I make a mistake, feel free to correct me in a polite manner

Now onto the meat of the issue

On another thread (that shall remain nameless) I raised the idea of where the hobby as a whole would be if it wasn't for GW.

Now with this I mean not just if GW hadn't existed but no other company had risen to its position in its place

Where would the hobby be? Most people play 40K or Fantasy, particularly outside the US where Warmahordes are no where near as common.

Even people who don't and now play Warmachine or Flames or the more exotic systems like Dust and Infinity can probably say that a GW system might have introduced them to table top gaming (a gateway game if you will)

So if GW hadn't opened up the world to TTG (table top gaming) in such a way would these smaller companies exist?

And then if they did what of the massed websites out there who do buisness selling after model parts? Would CHS exist if not for GW? Would Mantic? Whats the bitz and conversions scene like on PP and other systems?

Also consider the seperation of "Wargaming" and "The Hobby". The Hobby is modeliing, painting, whereas the Tabletop gaming is the actual playing of games, the publishing of rules.

GW have acheived a brand recognition that only one other model company can really claim to the mass market, and they (Airfix) recently had to be bought out of administration)

On the other thread there was also a counter argument provided by Necron 2.0, which i've copied below to provide the counterpoint to this discussion.


I want to start by stating up front that I am in no way attempting to "dis" anyone (except maybe Bill Gates). If anything that follows causes offense to anyone (except Bill Gates), it will be purely unintentional.

I've often said (and in honest, absolute seriousness) that if Bill Gates had been strangled at birth, the state of the art in computer science and technology would be 10 to 20 years ahead of where it is now. If anything, among my peers (people who've been in the field since ol' Bill was still just some punk college drop-out) I'm chided for being far too conservative.

Truth be told, among purist miniature collectors, Citadel miniatures have always been somewhat "meh" and the 40K game itself (rules-wise) is kinda lumpy, odd and a little misshapen. The success of GW comes solely from marketing and presentation. GW capitalized on something that already existed, much like Bill Gates did. They took an existing concept, and did a PT Barnum on it - they made the game into "Events" and then spun a culture around those events. And like Mr. Gates, they've routinely engage in behavior meant to dominate and control the industry, not enhance it, and certainly not to benefit the customers.

If GW never existed, maybe the hobby would be worse off for it. However it's as likely (and maybe a little more so) that wargaming would be far better off. <*Shrug*> Unlike the situation with Bill and computer science, there's no way to accurately tell.



So have at it! What would the world of TTG look like if GW had never existed?

[Deadlift]

Wargaming would be no where near as popular as it is now I bet,

GW Shops are a presence here in the UK in most central towns and cities. If it weren't for those introduction games that GW staff members offer how many people would take the plunge ? Its quite a daunting prospect to someone starting out in the hobby of wargaming and GW have a head start because not only do they have the product in the shops of most towns but also the staff to show you how to start playing. Sure some people go on to try different systems but for me and my friends we started with 40k and WFB. If it weren't for the ease of getting into these games then I suspect we would not have started with another game. Even the other model shops in my area only stock GW products besides the usual trains, boats and planes. As for PP and the rest (some of which I now do play) I have to order online.

For me GWs products give me at least 1-2hrs a day of enjoyment, whilst I do collect other models and play other games. 40K will always be my favourite.

Its not just the models and games too but the whole richness of its "lore" with both of their systems. I would easily say I read at least 2-3 BL library books a month and these only go onto feed my interest in their sci-fi and fantasy worlds.

You only have to look at the content on forums such as BOLS to see how much they dominate our interest by how many more threads are dedicated to GWs products. No other system comes close.

[Psychosplodge]

Supposedly they've pushed the boundaries of plastic injection moulding, how much of this accurate and how much is sales talk?
also supposing this is true how much does this filter out into other plastic industries?

[MrGiggles]

Well, I'm guessing wargaming wouldn't be as big.

For me, I probably wouldn't be in the hobby at all. I'd probably be doing cards or boardgames or role playing or something. Actually, we'd probably be doing LAN parties.

The underlying cause of my group going to minis still stands; the fact that we're all spread out, get together 5-6 times a year and need something that occupies us in between, but is pick-up when we do get together.

[Grenndal]

40K was not my gateway game. Long before I ever bought a GW mini I bought and painted reaper minis to paint and to use as an avatar in D&D.

I used to play both mage knight and mechwarrior TTGs. Sure they were clickies and sold in collectable boosters but they were fun and I miss playing them. Nothing like a huge conquest game with warmachines and dragons and giants. The only problem there was the power gamers who had all the LE figs that just rolled over you in tournaments... then again it was a tournament :)

[phoenix01]

My wallet would be fatter in a world without GW.

[Mr.Pickelz]

I share Phoenix's sentiments... :(

[Col.Gravis]

By far the majority of those I game with, no matter what they play now got into the hobby through a GW presense in UK town centers, so of those I'd be willing to bet a majority of that majority would'nt then have gotten into the hobby at all without GW.

If GW had'nt existed would the same thing have happend, yeah possibly, maybe the same, maybe better, maybe worse, but if you simply remove GW from the equation, you end up with less wargamers in the hobby.

[Chuck777]

If GW didn't exist then Wargaming would not be any where near as popular as it is today. Warcraft, the most popular MMO in the world, would not exist. If Warcraft did not exist, then 4th edition D&D would have looked fairly different (much of the system, as well as its aborted digital version, was designed to recapture fringe RPers who left for WoW). Magic the Gathering might look different since there wouldn't have been a mainstream fantasy game (that was not an RPG or Board Game) to help inspire investors to see the potential of the game. If Magic didn't happen, or became popular later, then everything in the Card Game industry might look quite different (Pokemon TCG may not have been created if WotC was still more of a start up in the late 90's, and if pokemon TCG did not become popular, then YuGiOh may not have taken off the way it has). Heroclix, which is again gaining popularity, probably would not exist if not for the invention of Gamesworkshop making wargames popular, same with the Star Wars and D&D Minis games. If GW didn't exist then Starcraft wouldn't have existed, which means throngs of Koreans would have had to spend their time on other games, or their real lives...

In essence, GW helped forge the modern Geek, take it away and much of the tent we know and love today would not exist.

[Necron2.0]

If GW didn't exist then Wargaming would not be any where near as popular as it is today. Warcraft, the most popular MMO in the world, would not exist.

Ok, now this I have to completely disagree with. GW didn't invent wargaming. It certainly didn't invent RPGs and it nowhere near created MMO's. Prior to Warcraft there was Ultima, Wizardry, Warlords, Baldur's Gate, and hundreds more that WoW owes more to than Warhammer.


If Warcraft did not exist, then 4th edition D&D would have looked fairly different....

And quite a few people would say that's a good thing. Were it not for 4th Ed, probably Paizo and certainly Pathfinder wouldn't exist.


Magic the Gathering ...
... is likewise not based on Warhammer as much as on fantasy in general.

Basically, Warhammer is A game. It is not THE game.

[eldargal]

Actually Warcraft comes directly out of Warhammer, Blizzard licensed it for a game, started work on what was to become Warcraft: Orcs & Humans, then GW withdrew from the arrangement and Blizzard changed the names and made their own background and released it anyway.

So no GW, no Warcraft, no World of Warcraft, no mass popularisation of MMOs (or at least much delayed).

[Necron2.0]

GW Shops are a presence here in the UK in most central towns and cities.

This could be a major cause for differing perceptions. I live in the 6th largest city in the United States and until very recently there wasn't a GW shop anywhere in my state. Recently, we got one, for a city of 1.45 million people. Putting that further into perspective, the total area of the UK is 94060 square miles. The state I live in is 113998 square miles. So for you guys across the pond GW might define your gaming experiences. For me, however, it has barely been a blip on the radar.

My introduction to wargaming came first from Chainmail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainmail_%28game%29) and later from BattleSystem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlesystem), both of which predate Warhammer. Of course, there was also Axis and Allies, plus a boat load of games from Avalon Hill.

[Necron2.0]

So no GW, no Warcraft, no World of Warcraft, no mass popularisation of MMOs (or at least much delayed).

Nope. All those things were in the works and would have come out whether GW were involved or not. Warcraft wasn't even the first MMO (Ultima Online and Meridian59 were) , and prior to MMOs, there were MUDs (http://mmohuts.com/editorials/the-first-mmorpg), MUXs and MUSHs which uber-geeks like myself were obsessing over in the late 80's and early 90's.

[eldargal]

It would have happened, but not as soon and not in the same way. WoW broke MMOs into the mainstream, simply by being easy to play and dispensing with a lot of MUD and RPG traits which didn't lend themselves well to online play. Simply put, it was a lot easier to play, as witnessed by its hitherto unprecedented subscriber numbers.

GW is the global tabletop wargaming behemoth, you can stick your head in the sand and try and pretend otherwise but teh entire indsutry would be radically different had GW not existed.

[Necron2.0]

I never said it wouldn't be different. Truth is, however, had GW never existed something or someone else would have stepped into its place. Nothing that GW did wasn't already being done by others at the exact same time (and some were actually doing it better). The only thing that GW did that differed is they were better at marketing.

[eldargal]

That's irrelevent, fact is GW shaped the industry and by lending itself to the creation of Warcraft and ultimately WoW it shaped the development of the MMO industry was well, which in turn altered ior helped alter the perception of fantasy and video games in general. That other companies were doing similar things doesn't matter when none of them managed to do what GW did.

[KrewL RaiN]

As a kid, I was interested in these little shiny dudes in little packages, but I wasn't sure what they were really for. I would stare at them and figure out what they turned into when put together.

Then a few years ago I stumble upon the Tyranid race and fell in love lol. The game itself looked interesting too, and thus I was introduced to the tabletop wargaming scene.

Also, if it wasn't for GW, I would of not gotten back into sculpting. I found I have a little knack for the sculpting thing, and maybe someday with enough practice, get more professional at it.

Also my wallet would probaly be fatter too if GW didnt exist haha.

[Verilance]

As someone who began gaming BWH (before Warhammer) I can tell you that at the conventions I attended as a youth there were Miniatures games (true mainly historical yet there were some fantasy rule sets)

Games Workshop good as they are only brought accessibly to the front by starting their own shops to promote their game.

I have been to many Games shops over the years and many have closed or had to diversify ie comics and games etc to make a go at success.

for this reason alone the game industry would be much poorer without GW I don't think they could have been replaced by another company

[scadugenga]

It's an interesting Gedankenexperiment, to be sure.

The cheeky response to if there was no GW would be that there would be more independent FLGS' out there instead of the far fewer one existing today. :)

However, Necron 2.0 is absolutely correct--there was miniature wargaming before GW and had there been no GW, it would have continued on. Something would have eventually filled the void and there would be a new "standard."

There were many minature games, sci fi, fantasy or historical that predated warhammer 40k/fantasy.

Battletech, Star Fleet Battles, Starship Combat Simulator, AD&D Battlesystem, Chainmail--just to name a brief few.

Even GW didn't start as a mini's wargaming company. White Dwarf (or Owl & Weasel in its original incarnation) wasn't even GW-only IP until issue 100 or so. And even beyond that they still sold advertising space to other gaming companies.

What GW did, and by and large succeeded at, was to "microsoft" the miniature wargaming industry, by trying to sqeeze out any room for competition.

Before that--most gaming companies were much friendlier, and sometimes interdependent upon one another. Gaming companies had a bit of a symbiotic relationship with each other.

Would the face of gaming be different now if GW had remained in obscurity, and White Dwarf just another gaming rag? Absolutely.

Who knows if the industry as a whole would be better off or not.

Personally, I would like to think "yes" to that statement. But then, I'm a bit of an idealist at times. :)