Codex Astares, why oh why !!!

[Goochman]

With only 9 first founding Chapters why GW doesn't do a codex for each of them?
I mean, each Chapter has his unique combat style so why not?
I am tired of this Vanilla Marine stuff. But hell the Ultrasmurfs have it all. ( not counting GK ) You look, and there's at least 7 characters for the Ultrasmurfs and one for the other first founders.
It should be:
Codex for ea. of the First with rules for the Seconds inside, and make the difference ex. White Scars ( Mobil Units ), Imperial Fist ( Defense and Siege ),Black Ravens ( Hit and Run, Infiltrate ) or something like that, in all the fluff you keep reading that the Emperor did make the Astares the same but different to cover all kinds of battle grounds or situations why not in the game?
I believe that would balance a little more the game and it won't continue to spiral under control as is right now that is not balanced at all.
I play BA, IF, SW, CF, BT, IG and Sororitas ( witch hunters if you wanna call it ) so you see I like first and second founding chapters ( so there's no hate there ! )
But I strongly believe that a Codex Black Templar doesn't represent the Imperial Fist.
I know GW is all abt. money. But damn!!!!

Brother G
"The Emperor Protects"
* Remember Rynns*

[Mr.Pickelz]

Why would Codex Black Templars represent the Imperial Fists? The BT are a second founded chapter from them, and if you know the background, split off from there to continue the "Great Crusade", as the religious zealots they are. The IF play differently because of this, IF = Ground Attack/ Siege Warfare; BT = mass infantry charge with some tank support ( aka the Land Raider Crusader) while shouting prayers off to the emperor for help.

[DrLove42]

I think the fact remains even if they played differently there would just be too many to play

As it stands there are 7 Power Armour books (Wolves, Vanilla, B Angels, D Angels, Templars, Knights, Sisters)(plus 1 for pointy evil marines)
There are 7 non-power armoured armies (Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Nids, Deamons, Guard). This isn't veyr balenced as it is, with marines dominating the releases (every other book is marines)

If you introduced sperate books for each unrecognised founding chapter (Fists, R Guard, Iron Hands, W Scars, Salamanders) there would be 12 books to 7. (it gets worse if you count Man vs Xenos - then its 14 to 6)

Also count in that if you gave every marine chapter its own book, you'd ahve to give every Chaos legion there own book for fairness. And while at it, why not give every Eldar Craftworld its own book? (In the fluff they're as seperate in style as marine chapters are). And then different Ork groups (Speed Freeks, Bad Moons, Evil suns...each has their own style)

Simple answer is they don't because theres too many books alread,y and doing more would be impossible

Slightly longer answer is, some chapters don't need their own books, because they're not very different from other races. Salamanders don't need their own books, as the only thing different between that book and Vanilla Marines book would be more flamers

[Goochman]

Why would Codex Black Templars represent the Imperial Fists? The BT are a second founded chapter from them, and if you know the background, split off from there to continue the "Great Crusade", as the religious zealots they are. The IF play differently because of this, IF = Ground Attack/ Siege Warfare; BT = mass infantry charge with some tank support ( aka the Land Raider Crusader) while shouting prayers off to the emperor for help.
Well brother I was referring to the different codex's but since you brought it up, in the fluff it says that The Great Rogal Dorn separated his Legion creating the Black Templars and Crimson Fist, he made the BT out of his most zealous followers making Sigismund his first CM. In ten thousand Millennium I believe that the chapter could evolve, don't you?
When I said that the codex BT was a weak representation of the IF is because it is. Their Primarch is still Dorn as well, why GW makes them more important than where they came?

Brother G

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

We already have too many Space Marine codexes, why add more? Sure, a little more flexibility in the standard codex would be nice, but having an individual codex for each First Founding chapter would be a fair bit ridiculous.

The Imperial Fists follow the Codex Astartes closely enough that they are well represented by the vanilla codex - Black Templars do not, so they get their own codex. Nothing to do with how "important" either is fluffwise.

Space Marines are your favorite, and that's great - but other players are into Eldar, Tau, Orks etc. Drowning the game in even more Space Marine codexes than we already have would start to push those players away.

[Wolfshade]

To quote myself from another thread where you raised this:

After the heresy Roboute Guilliman published his Codex Astartes to which all the First founding and successor chapters should be following. Given that the Ultramarines were the largest of all the Chapters (that stayed loyal at least) as they were split they would keep their gene-lords teachings, there is also lots of references the the Ultramarine geneseed being one of the most stable so a significant number of later founding chapters use this as their basis and so again would quite strictly adhere to the teachings.
The problem with do a codex for each of the first foundings is that you would end up with 18 (+2) codecii for powered armoured boys, +1 GKs. Then compare that with the xenos which is 7? and you have a very unbalanced world. By exentension different necron forces from different tomb worlds would fight in different styles, as would the eldar of different craft worlds and pretty soon you have a huge number of codecii but very little different choices. My personal view of the Codex Space Marine is that it is such a broad book that you can use it to field a number of different armies that are different flavours but are still adherants to the Codex Astartes.

[Chaoschrist]

I wouldn't say they need a seperate book each, but I think they could (or should) do something similar like they did in the 4th ed marines book with the traits you had. Maybe a bit more traits to mix it up a bit more, add in some FOC changes, a unit here and there... but I don't think each army needs own codex, unless... unless it's really different from what the marine codex says and has a fair share of army specific units. Like Neophytes/initiates in BT, maybe the Deathwing/Ravenwing stuff in Dark angels

[GrogDaTyrant]

- but other players are into Eldar, Tau, Orks etc. Drowning the game in even more Space Marine codexes than we already have would start to push those players away.

The game is already pushing those players away. When the slightest variant marine chapter gets a unique codex for the sake of sales, but they can't even be bothered to throw a bone to the different craftworlds, clans, or IG regiments in their own codex, it tends to turn people off. And it's not like there aren't any other systems out there handling variant armies better than GW.

[Levitas]

I'm gonna go ahead and reference this thread...

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=19792

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

The game is already pushing those players away. When the slightest variant marine chapter gets a unique codex for the sake of sales, but they can't even be bothered to throw a bone to the different craftworlds, clans, or IG regiments in their own codex, it tends to turn people off. And it's not like there aren't any other systems out there handling variant armies better than GW.Mmmm, I'd kill for a detailed Iyanden Necromancer army list.

Goochman: You liked the look of the Tempus Fugitives 30k stuff, right? How about that setup for a Space Marines Codex? A generic set of units and Wargear, with each founding legion getting ~3 pages giving it a unique FOC, Chapter Tactics, Special Characters and a couple of unique units. Gives 'em all a good deal with one codex, could even wrap Blood/Dark Angels in with that model. Hell, that model would apply well to most of the codexes.

[phoenix01]

This is where a Chapter Approved supplement for the codex would come in handy. The Codex Space Marines which would have basic unit descriptions (Captains, Chaplains, Librarians, Tactical Squads, etc), lists and stats, and fluff along with how to tips on assemble and paint your new army, then a supplement for each major "codex adherent" first founding chapter with their successor chapters, special characters and wargear, special units (like Tyrannic War Vets for the Ultramarines or Sanguinary Guard for Blood Angels, modifications to force organization charts (for those pesky Dark Angels Scouts that are not Troops, but Elites), suggested army lists, and appropriate fluff. So if you want to play Ultramarines or one of their many successors, you get the Codex plus Chapter Approved: Ultramarines. If you want to play Blood Angels or Fleshtearers, you get the Codex plus Chapter Approved: Blood Angels. Fancy a shadowy hit and run army? Then get the Raven Guard supplement. All this would be three-hole punched for placement in a binder. Seperate codexes for the two non-codex adherents (Space Wolves and Black Templars) would also work.

This could also work for the various Xenos armies, Guard, and Chaos. An Iyanden Eldar army would have access to some different units than a Biel Tan army for example. Supplements for Cadians, Catachans, Tallarns, Mordians, etc. could introduce new special characters and rules. Limitations could be added for certain factions that don't exist for others, even though both armies are the same race/group. The Inquisition could also be done the same way with seperate supplements for Grey Knights, Sisters, and Deathwatch as well as Custodes, Arbites, and Inquistor retinues.

[Chuck777]

What they really need to do (and never will) is to give each major Codex-Compliant chapter a large section of the vanilla marine codex. What if we had 7 Ultramarine Character, 6 Iron Fist characters,

What if, for the new Vanilla Marine Codex, they included 5 Characters from each of the codex-compliant first founding chapters? These characters would help flesh out each chapter and allow the player to customize his army based on his Chapter of choice's tactics.

GW won't do this because that would mean there would be too many characters in 1 codex.

[DarkLink]

With only 9 first founding Chapters why GW doesn't do a codex for each of them?


WTF? Seriously?

There are 16 codices in the game. GW already can't keep up, and several books are what, a decade old? Of the current 16 books, how many are already Space Marines? And players regularly complain about how many Marine armies there are.

What you consider to be significant differences in fighting styles are really very minor. You know what's different? Eldar. Dark Eldar. Tau. IG. Orks. Not yet another army with bolters, power armor and razorbacks.

Grey Knights, and maaaaybe Space Wolves and Black Templar, are the only Marine codices with actual rules that are genuinely different enough to actually warrant a unique codex. BA are assault Marines as troops with FNP, Fast vehicles and a couple of unique units. DA are terminators as troops, and that's about it. Space Wolves and BT at least have the courtesy of having a unique squad structure with no sergeants and the Wolf Guard, Neophytes, etc, and some unique units like Blood Claws.

One afternoon (I just got out of college and don't have a real job yet, so I've got a lot of free time), I took literally just a couple of hours to write out a word document with a single armylist from which you could replicate basically any SW, vanilla, BT, DA, BA, etc Marine armylist that currently exists, all in one book. Most of the work was just copy/pasting unit entries. Chapter Tactics gives you all the flexibility you need to combine all the books into one.

What GW does currently is, presumably, good for their business. But as far as the players go, focusing more on Xenos codices would be much, much more beneficial to the game than another seven Marine books that are virtually identical in most ways other than USRs and a couple of unique units.

[Goochman]

This is where a Chapter Approved supplement for the codex would come in handy. The Codex Space Marines which would have basic unit descriptions (Captains, Chaplains, Librarians, Tactical Squads, etc), lists and stats, and fluff along with how to tips on assemble and paint your new army, then a supplement for each major "codex adherent" first founding chapter with their successor chapters, special characters and wargear, special units (like Tyrannic War Vets for the Ultramarines or Sanguinary Guard for Blood Angels, modifications to force organization charts (for those pesky Dark Angels Scouts that are not Troops, but Elites), suggested army lists, and appropriate fluff. So if you want to play Ultramarines or one of their many successors, you get the Codex plus Chapter Approved: Ultramarines. If you want to play Blood Angels or Fleshtearers, you get the Codex plus Chapter Approved: Blood Angels. Fancy a shadowy hit and run army? Then get the Raven Guard supplement. All this would be three-hole punched for placement in a binder. Seperate codexes for the two non-codex adherents (Space Wolves and Black Templars) would also work.

This could also work for the various Xenos armies, Guard, and Chaos. An Iyanden Eldar army would have access to some different units than a Biel Tan army for example. Supplements for Cadians, Catachans, Tallarns, Mordians, etc. could introduce new special characters and rules. Limitations could be added for certain factions that don't exist for others, even though both armies are the same race/group. The Inquisition could also be done the same way with seperate supplements for Grey Knights, Sisters, and Deathwatch as well as Custodes, Arbites, and Inquistor retinues.
I like the way you think Brother
;)
Brother G

[Goochman]

Mmmm, I'd kill for a detailed Iyanden Necromancer army list.

Goochman: You liked the look of the Tempus Fugitives 30k stuff, right? How about that setup for a Space Marines Codex? A generic set of units and Wargear, with each founding legion getting ~3 pages giving it a unique FOC, Chapter Tactics, Special Characters and a couple of unique units. Gives 'em all a good deal with one codex, could even wrap Blood/Dark Angels in with that model. Hell, that model would apply well to most of the codexes.
You are right there, I like it
:)

Brother G

[DrWobbles]

There are similarities among chapters that should be grouped together in separate books. One could base their codex off of these similar traits and use their respective characters to make them unique to their partner but completely different from another power armor codex (I always thought it odd for white scars and ultras to share a codex). For example;

Dark Angels/ White scars- this codex can be based around bikes as troops (The darkies can still get their beloved deathwing)

Imperial Fists/ Iron Hands- Tough, durable, defensive, siege warfare, etc...

Blood Angels/ Raven Guard- Why not put raven guard and blood angels in the same codex? Makes more sense than the Angels of Death codex (Dark/Blood angels).

Ultramarines/ Salamanders- well equipped, tactically sound marines

Space Wolves/ Black Templars- Assault freaks, very divergent, both hate psykers, both use youngsters (neophytes and blood claws)

In total I'm only adding one more book to whats already out there but you are getting a wealth of flavor and a chance to delve deep into the background of all your favorite chapters.

Of course this will never happen. :)

[Wildeybeast]

Blood Angels/ Raven Guard- Why not put raven guard and blood angels in the same codex? Makes more sense than the Angels of Death codex (Dark/Blood angels).

Umm, because they have completely different styles of warfare? Sure, they both like using jump pack assaults, but that is it. BA use it for lighning fast, overwhelming shock and awe style strikes. RG use them for surgical, stealth hits, frequently behind the lines at high value and poorly defended targets. it would also ignore all their other units, like Death Company or the RG heavy use of scouts.

As an RG player, I really don't think we need our own codex. Whislt we have unique style of warfare, there isn't enough divergence from Codex Astartes to warrant it. You can build a perfectly fluffy army using Shrike and 'standard' SM units. Ditto for Salamanders and White Scars. It's not like we have Ravenwings and such like in our armies. Whilst GW could make some unique units up, they would simply be doing so for the sake of it, not to mention altering the fluff.

Also, as other have mentioned, GW struggles to keep all it's current armies UTD and balanced, I see no need to make this task harder by adding yet more SM codexes that will be very similar to ones already out there. If they really want to do a new army there are far more interesting prospects like Mechanicum or a new alien race.

[L192837465]

I've never heard a complaint that there were too few marine dexes. There's about four too many in my opinion. If they paid even the slightest attention to their fanbase, not everyone plays marines. What they're doing is making a self-fulfilling prophesy (Make more marines books, more people buy marines, marines are top sellers, ad infinitude)

I'm pretty sick of how much love SM get from GW, while cool armies like Eldar and Tau go decades without updates. Space Marines (if you include all power armour loyal armies) have been updated like 10 times since the Eldar book came out. That's cruel, and pretty much a punch in the face of every Eldar player.

[inquisitorsog]

I've never heard a complaint that there were too few marine dexes. There's about four too many in my opinion. If they paid even the slightest attention to their fanbase, not everyone plays marines. What they're doing is making a self-fulfilling prophesy (Make more marines books, more people buy marines, marines are top sellers, ad infinitude)

I'm pretty sick of how much love SM get from GW, while cool armies like Eldar and Tau go decades without updates. Space Marines (if you include all power armour loyal armies) have been updated like 10 times since the Eldar book came out. That's cruel, and pretty much a punch in the face of every Eldar player.

I wouldn't word it quite that strongly myself and I'd also change "SM" to "Imperials". IMO, it's not good for the hobby or the game to have such a heavy presence from what amounts to a single faction.

[Goochman]

Umm, because they have completely different styles of warfare? Sure, they both like using jump pack assaults, but that is it. BA use it for lighning fast, overwhelming shock and awe style strikes. RG use them for surgical, stealth hits, frequently behind the lines at high value and poorly defended targets. it would also ignore all their other units, like Death Company or the RG heavy use of scouts.

As an RG player, I really don't think we need our own codex. Whislt we have unique style of warfare, there isn't enough divergence from Codex Astartes to warrant it. You can build a perfectly fluffy army using Shrike and 'standard' SM units. Ditto for Salamanders and White Scars. It's not like we have Ravenwings and such like in our armies. Whilst GW could make some unique units up, they would simply be doing so for the sake of it, not to mention altering the fluff.

Also, as other have mentioned, GW struggles to keep all it's current armies UTD and balanced, I see no need to make this task harder by adding yet more SM codexes that will be very similar to ones already out there. If they really want to do a new army there are far more interesting prospects like Mechanicum or a new alien race.
I get the RG thing, well what can I say, people wants more Xenos, I want more specialized marine codex. Tomato-Tomatoes, with the RG being infiltrators, Crimson Fist= almost depleted chapter with a huge hatred of Orks, Imperial Fist= defense masters, etc.... GW really needs to tweak the marines, also one thing that I would like to see GW do is give credit to the Salamanders, I really think that they should be able to move and shoot with the heavy weapons, if an IG character can do it and he's just human, why not the sons of Vulcan? Of course change the point values to represent this, I mean according to the fluff their planet pulls mayor g force over their bodies ( reason why their Initiative is lower in close combat )
Any thoughts on this?

[Wildeybeast]

I don't have any objections to your ideas, but I don't think they warrant a codex for each legion. That could be achieved through a bit more detail in the vanilla codex. The only probelm, is where do you stop? Why just the original legions? After all, BT and CF are both successor chapters, yet they get more coverage than say Iron Hands (who are much more interesting IMO). I think that is probably because, other than their desire to 'pimp my ride' their own bodies, they adhere pretty closely to the Codex Astartes. I personally like the system of a special character unlocking unique abilities for a chapter. What I would like is much less focus on the smurfs and a codex that focus on SM in general.

[MorbidAri]

Sure, they can add as many new Marine codexs as people want, BUT they release a new xeno codex per. Squats are primed for a comeback and lets not forget Hrud. That's 2 more marine codexs.

As a DA player I like the idea of more variety, but there should be a counter balance. An uber codex would be the easiest fix but one that GW wont ever do. But should they add new Xeno races, i'd say bring more marines on.

[Goochman]

I don't have any objections to your ideas, but I don't think they warrant a codex for each legion. That could be achieved through a bit more detail in the vanilla codex. The only probelm, is where do you stop? Why just the original legions? After all, BT and CF are both successor chapters, yet they get more coverage than say Iron Hands (who are much more interesting IMO). I think that is probably because, other than their desire to 'pimp my ride' their own bodies, they adhere pretty closely to the Codex Astartes. I personally like the system of a special character unlocking unique abilities for a chapter. What I would like is much less focus on the smurfs and a codex that focus on SM in general.
That would be a great idea my friend.

Brother G