How many units are there in 40k?

[SotonShades]

Good evening guys, girls and other creatures that make their virtual homes in the Lounge

We've all read plenty of articles, blogs and forum threads about spamming units, min-maxing armies and seeing the same netlist copied over and over at tournaments, but how many possible combinations of wargear and models are possible?

Lets look at GW's posterboys, the not-so humble Space Marine Tactical squad.

Basic squad is Sergeant and 4 Marines. 1 possible unit.

you can then swap out the sergeant's bolt pistol and/or boltgun with 8 different options, givinga possible 64 potential options. 65 units so far.

Then he has the option of melta bombs (130) and a teleport homer (now up to 260 potential units, even if there is only 1 character different).

Now there are no other options you can take until you have a full ten man squad, and each man is a slightly different unit from the other 260 units so far mentioned. So the 6th guy is 520, 7 is 1040... at 10 full men, there are so far 8320 different possible combinations that can make up the unit.

Adding one of the three special weapons, say a flamer, is 49920 units. Then finally there are then 5 heavy weapon options.

249,600 possible combinations for a single unit type. Now, I know a lot of that comes down to the possible options for the sergeant having 2 weapons that can be swapped for one of 8 options. A lot of other units don't have any one character with quite that many options, but a lot of elite units can do that with every member.

So does anyone fancy working out the same thought experiment with a few more units? 249600 possible units from a single entry in the army list, how many from the codex? And then how many across all the codicies? When you look at it like that, it's amazing that 40k is as balanced as it is...

[Dalleron]

And the point of this is what exactly?

Everyone knows that most units in the game have multiple options.

Are you revolting against net lists? People use them because they work, assuming you know what you are doing.

[templarboy]

I think he is marveling at the outrageous diversity that can be shown in a single unit. Either that or trying to impress us with his uber math skills......

[Gir]

Now someone do it for warmachine!

[CridiDeal]

Well not too skilled. This is math without any context.
Example: power weapon + plasma pistol = plasma pistol + power weapon

But i can see your point. I dare you to do this for a 3rd edition Chaos chosen squad!

[SotonShades]

No real point, no rebelling against Netlists, not trying to show off my mad math skillz; just an odd thought that came to mind and had to write it down or it would have been bugging me for days. Figured I might as well write it down somewhere where it might get others thinking.

I did realise that I made a bit of a mistake. 2 really. As CridiDeal pointed out, some of the combinations on the Sergeant will double up. I also forgot to account for the squads under 10 men can't take the special/heavy weapons. So there are only 260 combinations of 10 man squad before squad weapon options, woith 8060 possible combinations of smaller squads.

So, working from those 10 man squads, there are 3900 possible combinations of Sergeant, special and heavy weapons. Add that to the possible combinations of smaller squads, and we only have 11,960. So an order of magnitude smaller.

This is why I shouldn't do mathematics at around midnight :p (and as a result why I almost failed my degree at one point lol)

I'll let someone else look at the different possibilities for Wolfguard and Nob. The thought of working out those makes my eyes water.

[Houghten]

As well as the left hand / right hand equivalent combinations, some of the possible combinations aren't really useful. If you already have a Plasma Pistol, a second Plasma Pistol grants you no benefits that a Bolt Pistol wouldn't - you get the +1 attack in close combat but you don't get to twin-link your shots or anything so you're paying 15 pts for no reason. Likewise there's no benefit in having paired Power Swords, or (and the ability to do this makes no sense at all) two pairs of Lightning Claws (seriously, how does that even work?).

[lobster-overlord]

Imagine if you were an ultimate wysiwyg'er and needed every combo possible to be able to feel comfortable (there is a guy at my shop like this... been collecting an IG army for a year and hasn't played becasue he cannot figure out what combo to use on his LRs and needs to have them all modeled becasue of some notion that he cannot play otherwise)

[inquisitorsog]

Imagine if you were an ultimate wysiwyg'er and needed every combo possible to be able to feel comfortable (there is a guy at my shop like this... been collecting an IG army for a year and hasn't played becasue he cannot figure out what combo to use on his LRs and needs to have them all modeled becasue of some notion that he cannot play otherwise)

Those sorts of situations bother the heck out of me. For one, I've been around the hobby, if not the game, for 13 or 14 years and have learned if you take more than a couple of months to get an army put together, you're likely to see it obsoleted before you get it on the table. On the other hand, while I personally am primarily a hobbyist and not a gamer anymore for 40k, I also see little point to collecting bits for a game and not playing it. Being a pure hobbyist is fine, but if you want to game, game. I'd rather you proxy a padlock for a dreadnought than sit on the sides doing nothing (as long as I see your army progressing towards completion, better is to just print an image of a dread on some card stock and stand it up IMO). It also reminds me of a fellow I know who spent 100,000s on law school then realized he hated being a lawyer.

Anyway, your acquaintance needs to learn the power of rare earth magnets (or poster putty although that's not as good by a long shot).

[L192837465]

Nobs are nothin. Lets try Paladins. *shudder* With transport options and every guy having access to 4 different cc weapons plus 3 different guns (storm, psy, and combi) that unit would have upwards of about 500,000 combos I'd imagine, even with your fix to the math. 10 dudes with that many choices.... Might be higher.


Gross.

[bfmusashi]

Imagine if you were an ultimate wysiwyg'er and needed every combo possible to be able to feel comfortable (there is a guy at my shop like this... been collecting an IG army for a year and hasn't played becasue he cannot figure out what combo to use on his LRs and needs to have them all modeled becasue of some notion that he cannot play otherwise)

I don't understand why, the weapons mounts on the new kits are modular and the turret doesn't need to be glued shut to stay together. I think the only thing that's permanent are things like dozerblades and pintle weapons.

[GrogDaTyrant]

249,600 possible combinations for a single unit type. Now, I know a lot of that comes down to the possible options for the sergeant having 2 weapons that can be swapped for one of 8 options. A lot of other units don't have any one character with quite that many options, but a lot of elite units can do that with every member.

In comparison, a unit of Ork boyz have a shockingly low 21,600 unit configurations (roughly), ignoring the potential transport for units up to 12 models (which adds a meager 480 additional configurations in comparison).

Also in contrast is that Lootas have a pathetic 150 configurations (of which only 10 are recommended), for a unit that should (per fluff), and once did, have a staggeringly high number of possible unit configurations.


Indeed the vast number of non-Imperial units, and some extent non Chaos Marine units, are lacking heavily in possible unit configurations. There are exceptions like Crisis Suits or Nobs, which are both heavily customizable. But those are just as few and far between as the Imperial units that are lacking in potential unit upgrades.



When you look at it like that, it's amazing that 40k is as balanced as it is...

Not really. 40k's abysmal balance should come to no surprise when you have armies left behind for upwards of a decade (or beyond), with minimal support beyond a cursory glance and 'streamlining'. Comparing the weapon summary tables for each army tends to speak volumes about why 40k has a lot of the... 'issues' it has. And it only gets worse when you add close-combat weaponry to that list. If anything, you'll find that the one thing keeping 40k's balance remotely playable for armies with few units and unit options, is that the meta in most regions does not usually account for them if at all.

[L192837465]

There are exceptions like Crisis Suits or Nobs, which are both heavily customizable. But those are just as few and far between as the Imperial units that are lacking in potential unit upgrades.






That started me thinking of just one IG platoon. That number would be damned high I think too, just because of how many dudes have the options and transports.

And THAT got me thinking about a squadron of Leman Russ. That's a crap-ton of options! Yikes! That would be in the millions, including all the variants and vehicle options!

[SotonShades]

That started me thinking of just one IG platoon. That number would be damned high I think too, just because of how many dudes have the options and transports.

And THAT got me thinking about a squadron of Leman Russ. That's a crap-ton of options! Yikes! That would be in the millions, including all the variants and vehicle options!

Don't just think, do it. Grab that codex and work from the bottom, most basic option up!

[Houghten]

Imagine if you were an ultimate wysiwyg'er and needed every combo possible to be able to feel comfortable
"Imagine"? I am like that. I have more Captains than Sergeants.


Nobs are nothin. Lets try Paladins. *shudder* With transport options and every guy having access to 4 different cc weapons plus 3 different guns (storm, psy, and combi) that unit would have upwards of about 500,000 combos I'd imagine, even with your fix to the math. 10 dudes with that many choices.... Might be higher.
Nobs aren't that far behind. They've got three transport options (Battlewagon, Trukk or Bikes) and every one of them can hold a full squad of ten, unlike the Paladins' transports, so they have all three options at every level instead of only having Crusaders up to eight and none at all at nine or ten, plus three CC weapons, four shooty weapons, Painboys with or without cybork bodies, bosspoles, Waaagh! banners (and anybody can have one of those, unlike a Brotherhood Banner) and armour... however, I have to admit that the Paladins' ability to master-craft any or all of their weapons provides an extra insane level of kustom, so maybe they're actually two orders of magnitude ahead after all...


Don't just think, do it. Grab that codex and work from the bottom, most basic option up!
No thanks, I choose to live.

[L192837465]

No thanks, I choose to live.


This. I'm good at physics, not math. Gross! Math is gross!