1500pts tripple vindie

[Aristus]

Here's a list that i've created, it works pretty well in common games but hasn't really been played in a more competative way. The lists that im mostly afraid of facing are armies that utilises tank hunting such as Vulkan with meltas or massed lascanon fire with guards, as the army is very armour-based.

HQ
Chaplain - Power Fist, Jump Pack = 130pts

Troops
Tactical squad 1# - Power fist, Flamer, Lascanon = 205pts

Tactical squad 2# - Power fist, Flamer, Lascanon = 205pts

Tactical squad 3# - Melta gun, multi-melta, drop pod = 235pts


Fast attack
Assault squad - Flamer, combat shield = 169pts

Land Speeder - Typhoon = 90pts

Land Speeder - Typhoon = 90pts


Heavy support
Vindicator - Siege shield = 125pts

Vindicator - Siege shield = 125pts

Vindicator - Siege shield = 125pts


As i tested an less evolved verision of this list i found out that having to depend on three vindicators (Which moves about 6' a turn) was very risky if my opponent was to mobile. I decided to try out and add two land speeders with typhoon upgrades to solve my problem.
With more manouvrebility i realised that my games where going more smoothly as i could close gaps or pin down units that my vindicators couldn't manage to.

I've always had roughly about 30 marines (three tactical squads) as troop choices to capture objectives and to give something that can soak up damage, in the original list i didn't really upgrade those squads with anything more than an lascanon and a flamer and i soon realised that my marines never really died of shooting (mostly thanks to 3+ saves) but by tough close combat units or atleast units that are more close combat worthy than ordinary marines. I've tried to add power weapons to the sargeants, but it didn't really give anything as it often just took one wound of a character or nob etc.
Im usually against upgrading one-wound characters with expensive upgrades as their potential dosn't match the point's cost but with tactical sergeants im ready to make an exeption, equiping them with power fists does really change the outcome of the most combats, as you will ignore saves and instant kill the majority of multi-wound assaulters, it dosn't raelly matter if your tacticals die in the end but it does count that they'll drag some of their killer to the death with them as they are often alot more expensive or exclusive than your ordinary marines. You might even be lucky and win combats, just to sweep the assaulters to death.

I also added a drop pod to one of my squads equiped with a melta gun and a MM, the reason was simple that they are going to loosen my opponents defences by striking at key points like tough tanks or camping units such as dark reapers.

Now i've covered up amour, infantery and manouvrebility.
But what against armies that just can't be blown out of their cover becouse of coversaves and an unending flow of manpower?
Sure my vindicators will make a hard hit against their mass-units, but it might not always be enough as they often saves their anti-tank for last and nevers seems to loose morale checks due to officers and such.
Then whats a guardsmans weakness? Well they are pretty weak ofcourse, lot's in numbers but can't really take fatal blows and especially not without their coversaves of immense doom.
There would be two choices as solutions, either you'll get a unit with enought flame templates to wipe the lot of em, or you could simply get a deacent close combat unit that get's there quickly (you could also try to add more shooty power).
As i didn't have any close combat units included at the time to add one was my naturally choice.
I've always been a fan of assault marines, and by including a squad in the army i also had an excuse to buy the red scorpion MkIV ones from forgeworld :D
A charging unit with eight assault marines equiped with a flamer gets you a total of 23 attacks. That would probably whipe the most of guard units or fire warriors, but what if you face more worthy units as Khorne bezerkers or harlequinns? The assault squad shouldn't have a problem to inflict some damage on such units but these are thougher than guardsmen.
With that in my mind i focused to take a headquarter choice to support the assault squad, with that extra punch from a hero i might kill thougher units with more ease.
I started to think of utilize a librarian for my deeds as he uses a force weapon. With a force weapon i might kill tougher heroes with a simple psychic test.
The bad side of this choice is if i face a daemon prince in combat, str4 dosn't have a punching effect at all against them and if the librarian uses his psychic ablilities on the force weapon he dosn't really bring anything to the rest of the squad either. I could upgrade him to an epistoliary, but seriously is really 50pts worth for just another psychic power???

With much consideration i decided to scrap the librarian idea and to use a chaplain instead. The chaplain just dosn't give my assault marines a bonus in charges but he's also relativley cheap to upgrade, with a total of 130pts equiped with both a jump pack and a power fist (The extra punch!), he also has an higher probability to survive against low AP shots and save ignoring attacks thanks to his rosarius.

Hehe, well that's where i am right now, if you had the time to read it through please comment it aswell :D
Im aiming to get the list more competetive for tournaments so tips and tricks is appreciated.

[Exitus Acta Probat]

singleton lascannon kind of flounder in tactical squads. I would utilize free upgrades (multi-melta/hvy bolter dependent on unit role) and shift the points to melta guns.
Rhinos Rhinos Rhinos...if those tacs are in the open (cover or otherwise) they are vulnerable, especially without anti-lash (or doom etc) psychic hoods. In addition, this will give you the mobility to back off and force the everflowing hordes (of whatever type) to move that little bit further...thus shooting that little bit more.
Combat shield isn't really worth it either...I have an entire BA army loaded with em for the looks, and using it in regular SM lists or BA they never really pay for themselves except in those 'epic one off can't stop rolling 6's bugger your daemon prince' kinda lucky moments that seem to be in the movies, and when a tournament comes around just kinda say 'meh'. I think the assault squad might be a bit meh for that matter....tried out rhino mounted sternguard yet?

I am not a fan of trip vindis...I think two, with points put to transports, would serve you best.
I do find 3 tacticals sufficient for multi roles...you can even push down to 2 if you go for killy over grabby (combat squads when appropriate...REQUIRES mounting then).

[Aristus]

Ah, sorry for not being able to answear your respons earlier.

I did play earlier with just two vindicators but it didn't really have the mobile sledge effect that i wanted and thus i decided to add another one (don't know really, but it feels more comfortable to have two vindicators left if your opponent blows one up, instead of just having one left).

Yes the rhino tip is a good point as leash-lists are quite popular right now and to not being surrounded/overruned by horde armies.
I agree that i could utilize the points for the lascanons in the tactical squads on something else and switch to the free options instead.
I do also agree that the combat shield will go as it dosn't really add anything for the points cost =)

(more will come soon)

[Chumbalaya]

HQ
Chaplain - Power Fist, Jump Pack = 130pts

PF wastes his high I.


Troops
Tactical squad 1# - Power fist, Flamer, Lascanon = 205pts

Tactical squad 2# - Power fist, Flamer, Lascanon = 205pts

Powerfists took a trip to nerfville and don't need to be in Tac Squads. Lascannons are too pricey for too ineffective a weapon.


Tactical squad 3# - Melta gun, multi-melta, drop pod = 235pts

So they come in, hopefully nuke a tank and die alone and unprotected. If you bring a single Pod, it had better carry something more killy, like Sternguard or a Dread.


Fast attack
Assault squad - Flamer, combat shield = 169pts

5 marines are too easy to kill and these guys stick out like a sore thumb.


Land Speeder - Typhoon = 90pts

Land Speeder - Typhoon = 90pts

Good standoff unit, great for hunting light armor at range, I'd just add a multi-melta.


Heavy support
Vindicator - Siege shield = 125pts

Vindicator - Siege shield = 125pts

Vindicator - Siege shield = 125pts

You don't need a siege shield, the normal dozer works just fine.

You've got all these foot squads, a min assault squad, and a single DP running around that don't fit the army. Put your Tacticals in Rhinos (MM, F, combi-melta works fine), add a Land Raider full of Terminators or Sternies in Razors/Rhinos, and throw in some Dreads if points allow. For a competitive army, you want to ram armor down their throat and since the Vindies are short-ranged and shooty you can be too.

[Aristus]

Good point about the siege shields, even though i usually ultra-fail at dangerous terrain tests i might still be able to make it with a reroll, and it does save me some points.

Why are the power fist so nerfed? I know that it dosn't count as a secondary close combat weapon anymore and i can't hide it that easily thanks to the allocation rules but its still two attacks that often turns my luck in most combats, and the lascanon isn't that expensive even though ill probably change it to multi-meltas to obtain some points.

I've tried to have sternguards in a pod but they usually get beaten to death with gun power och close combat monsters, i've found out that the loss of an ordinary veteran with good ammunition for 25pts each isn't really my deal. But im am thinking about having a dreanought in a pod as it can fire an MM the same turn that he lands and he can take some pounding in close combat.

Hmm, about the chaplain, i don't really waste any high I as he got the same as any usual marine. And the power fist is cheap compared to other units and characters.

The assault marines isn't five people they are eight people + the chaplain.

[Chumbalaya]

Powerfists have less attacks and cost more, super nerf. Tac Squads really aren't meant to be in combat, you're better off using combat tactics or your vehicle to stay out of assaults.

10 Sternies with a couple combi-meltas will make mincemeat out of anything they drop next to. You can always get out of fights with combat tactics, but it might be easier to deploy somewhere safer or behind the pod for cover. Dreads are considerably cheaper, but considerably easier to pop, especially since they obligingly drop into melta range :D

Chaplains are I4? lol, I'm still using the DA Codex, sucks to be normal marines ;) Just be aware of the problems with having your IC-I-can-be-targetted-separately going last.

8 men isn't going to be enough either. Everything else is in a transport so they can have the anti-infantry firepower coming their way. They aren't even all that good in combat against dedicated assaulters. If you do want to stick with them, at least go for a powerfist to get a chance of killing MCs and Dreads.

[Craz]

Wait...Tactical Squads aren't supposed to be in close combat?

Oh, I guess I've been playing them wrong. They do just fine for me. Tactical squads are a great anvil unit, honestly, so long as they aren't charged by Banshees or another CC-dedicated unit. Ten men with a power fist win games, honestly. They can take on most other 'jack of all trade' units and, supposing that they can get into combat, usually can do something to make up their points. They're lovely like that.

[Chumbalaya]

I'd love to know how 9 attacks and 2 PF swings are good lol. Tacs are not good in combat, they can beat down IG and Tau, but who can't really? Their real strength is a low cost, scoring, combat tactics, Rhinos, and adding more flamer/melta to your army. You have a ton better combat options (Assault Terminators).

[CrusherJoe]

I'd love to know how 9 attacks and 2 PF swings are good lol. Tacs are not good in combat, they can beat down IG and Tau, but who can't really? Their real strength is a low cost, scoring, combat tactics, Rhinos, and adding more flamer/melta to your army. You have a ton better combat options (Assault Terminators).

Herein lies wisdom.

This man speaks the truth.

Regular marines have NO BUSINESS being in close combat. They suck at it. Yeah, yeah, "but the fluff says..." Don't believe it. The fluff is a lie. 1 single solitary whole attack in CC is craptacular and, IMHO, complete and utter bull****. But they had to do SOMETHING to make the Spiky Boys look better, and so Spiky Boys get a bolt pistol AND a CCW (apparently when you turn to Chaos, they hand you a chainsword as part of the initiation ritual).

So, in summary: if you can't avoid CC with your tacs, you're doing it wrong. But sometimes that's they way it goes so if it's inevitable, relax and enjoy it. Look at it this way, if you take those tacs into CC with any sort of even semi-dedicated assault unit, it really doesn't take all THAT much time to take 10 models off the table. :D

I treat tac squads like retarded children. Put them somewhere where they don't hurt themselves playing with sharp objects (mainly, the sharp objects that OTHER armies get to BRING TO CLOSE COMBAT) -- preferably on top of an objective with cover...and then shoot with them if you get a chance, but otherwise leave 'em be. When the time is right, take 'em to the Special Olympics in their special car -- and by Special Olympics I mean "objective sucking" and by "special car" I mean "Rhino" (if you're a cheap, non-combat-squadding *******) or "Razorback" (if you're awesome, intelligent, full of win and have sex on a regular basis).

"But....but what do I do for close combat?"

Easy. There occurred a miracle recently, and that miracle was the Strom Shield tune-up. SS/TH assault termnators are the balm for what ails you, they're like the prize in a Cracker Jack box...if your idea of a prize is a hard to kill power jack-hammer wielding maniac that just LOVES TO KILL (and it shows!). I run 8 of 'em in a Crusader and they are absolutely rapealicious. Is 8 too many? LOL. No. If I could pack more than 8 into a Crusader...then how every many more I could pack in there....well, I'd take that many.

One last thing: don't go getting any ideas about "deep striking" your assault terminators. Deep strike is random. Deep strike leaves your problem-solving unit of holy hammer wielders at the mercy of chance, and that, sir, is unacceptable. Deep strike is for suckers. Also, it turns your terminators into footsloggers, and a footsloggin' termie is a dead termie. The God Emperor of Mankind himself decreed that Assault Termies should lride across the battlefield in the comfort and security of a Land Raider Crusader, spending those quiet moments in the interior of that tank thinking about JUST HOW MUCH *** THEY ARE GOING TO BLUDGEON TO DEATH.

...well, at least that's what I think they're doing in there, and that makes me smile. So there ya go. :)

[Craz]

I suppose that, as a BA player, I'm biased, but when you look at a tactical's stateline-4s all around and a 3+ save-against most units they're no thtat bad. I'm a believer in the 'short range, killy' squad. I only field a special weapon in most of my tactical squads, as I like them to charge afterwards. And I'll tell you what, it's worth it. On the charge, 18 attacks and 3 power-punches can take down a great deal of stuff. Just so long as you play them smart and point them at the right things to kill, knowing their limitations, they're very useful.

[mkerr]

@Aristus: You've gotten some great advice below, but I'll toss in my comments as well.

1. The Chaplain isn't a very good HQ for the army you are building. Almost any choice is superior. If you decide to keep the Chaplan, then you should lose the Power Fist. It's a big sink of points in a 1500pt army.

2. Unless you have your Tacticals in a Rhino, they shouldn't have Power Fists (Flamers, although free, won't have a lot of use either). Since you've built a mobile army, I'd consider finding some points for a couple of Rhinos. In any case, just take the free Missle Launchers or Multi-Meltas -- the Lascannon is too pricey when you have 3 S10 tanks driving around.

3. If any Tactical squad needs a Power Fist it's the one in the Drop Pod. I'd consider putting a character in here (or shifting to very expensive, but very versatile Sternguard Veterans). If you keep the free MM, make sure to Combat Squad these guys so you have chance to shoot it.

4. I agree that the Assault Squad is completely out of place in this army. I'd lose it completely (or built it up to a 10-man squad for a much larger army). In any case, the Combat Shield isn't useful.

5. I love Typhoons, but I see light armor a lot in my neck of the woods. They have a decent punch and can stay out of harm's way and be effective. A Multi-melta makes them very versatile, but will also make you want to move them up to take pot shots. It's a mixed bag, but I usually take MMs on them. They work great in pairs.

6. I don't put any upgrades on my Vindicators. Extra armor might be worth it, if you have lots of terrain on your boards but I find that it's pretty easy to avoid terrain when I deploy.

In generally, the army feels to spread out to be effective. Your Tactical Squads hang back (not doing much) while your Vindicators drive forward with no real support (the Typhoon just isn't enough). When the Drop Pod comes in (probably far away from the Vindicators) it doesn't add a lot to the army. And goodness knows what the Assault squad is doing.

If you are planning an army around 3 Vindis (which is great at 1500pts), you need to build a support structure for them. Bring your ENTIRE army with them (Rhinos are great for this and provide much needed cover from side and rear threats). Terminators or Sternguard would be a decent addition as well (replacing the 3rd Tactical Squad) -- Terminators are particularly effective at 1500pts.

Best of luck!

-- MKerr

[Duke]

After taking in everyhing said by all these other guys I would have to agree with most of it. However, I like having a P.fist in my squads for flexibility. I agree for sure on the Lascannon, take the free MM. Let us know how it goes.

[Aristus]

Thanks for all of the advice people :D

Ill be going through everything when i got time for it, and ill post an edited list in a couple of days or so.