Vanilla Marines in 6th

[Deadlift]

So with all these rumours of 6th edition, Dark Angels, Chaos, Tau, Black Templar and Eldar just where does the Ultra marines and the rest of the codex following marines fit into all this ? I hear that Dark Angels could be the new GW poster boys but I don't buy that.
Traditionally new 40k editions are shortly followed by the boys in blue and friends but at the moment there's not even a sniff of vanilla anywhere.
I didn't use the news and rumours section as this is neither, but more a probing of your thoughts.

Over to you :)

[Chuck777]

GW is packaging push fit Dark Angels with their new Paint set. Considering every other time GW has done this, they simply took pieces of the starter set's sprue and stuffed it into the box... I think it is a safe bet that Dark Angels will be the new poster boys of 40k.

[Mr.Pickelz]

Well Black Templars also use to be the starter set marines back in third and even got the front BRB(Big Rule Book) cover as well. If GW really wants to push a more grim dark atmosphere, then Dark Angels would fit the bill for "Darkest" marine army. Not to mention they are on the list of codexes (codici?) that need some love'n.
;)

[Cuddy]

My guess is Dark Angels vs Chaos (fallen?) for 6 ed, as it would help kick off two armies which have not been updated for a long, long time. Both have players that would love to buy new armies for them too, with an update. It doesn't make since for GW to put out more Ultramarines n the starter pack, as a lot of people already have them/sell them on ebay. Better to promote a model range that people would need to buy from GW.

[Wolfshade]

Looks like we'll be having some blue/red/grey dark angels running around!
Oh I'm such a cynic.
I would like to see a new C:DA, but I am also highly skeptical of a C:SM not being released with the first wave of 6th.
That being said, the use DA in the new starter paint set, and the looking towards more grim dark does seem to be a smoking gun.

The future's dark, the future's Dark Angels.

[Cuddy]

I feel that C:Sm has aged really well, all things considering; it would be brutal for them to start updating 5 ed codices with anachronisms like Witch Hunters, Chaos and Eldar running around, but I could see it. Maybe the Dark Angels codex update would satisfy their "first wave space marine" codex.

[UltramarineFan]

Let DA have their fun, C:SM is perfectly fine and filled with weird, fun units :) my ultramarines will survive not being the first codex out in 6th

[Kawauso]

Yeah, my vanilla marines can afford the wait, too.

I'd be quite happy if other armies got the attention they deserve for now - CSM, Tau and Sisters being chief among them. And I guess the BT book really shows its age, too.

[Charistoph]

And I guess the BT book really shows its age, too.

It better, it's currently the oldest codex!

[Kaika87]

It better, it's currently the oldest codex!

And yet still does pretty damn good in the right hands. Even wins GTs still.

[Levitas]

Codex Raven Guard will come first...oh wait i'm dreaming/wishing/hoping.

Too much power armor, lets see Dark Angels, Chaos and then some xenos love. Its not like marine players dont have...options....right now.

On the Poster boy front Ultras have had their day, just like Crimson Fists, Blood Angels, Black Templars. It's now the year of the Lion.

[GrogDaTyrant]

And yet still does pretty damn good in the right hands. Even wins GTs still.

Yeah... it's amazing what an army-wide, dirt-cheap Preferred Enemy will do to an outdated army. Especially when an edition change substantially boosts the USR's effect.

[Sure]

Don't forget the FAQ!

[Wildeybeast]

It's perfectly possible to get DA vs Chaos in the boxset and then a vanilla marines codex as the first book to be released. GW gave up on having the boxed set dictate codex/army book releases quite some time ago. In fantasy they have used the boxset to revive sales of armies/books that have been around for a while. You buy the box set and get the start of a new army, or you use it to expand an existing one. I dont think people should get too hung up on the box set linking to codex releases.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

It does seem odd that Vanilla Marines aren't the poster 'dex in the startup box. Makes me wonder if they've gracefully rolled Dark Angels up into the Vanilla 'dex.

[Chuck777]

It does seem odd that Vanilla Marines aren't the poster 'dex in the startup box. Makes me wonder if they've gracefully rolled Dark Angels up into the Vanilla 'dex.

DA only feel like Vanilla marines because the Vanillas used the Dark Angel Codex as a base template.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

DA only feel like Vanilla marines because the Vanillas used the Dark Angel Codex as a base template.Dunno about that, apart from changes to Vet.s/Chapter Tactics, they're still pretty similar to 4th Ed. Space Marines. Fluffwise, the Dark Angels follow the Codex Astartes except for 1st/2nd companies, so it makes sense. Combing the codexes wouldn't detract from Dark Angels if handled well - say, all Terminator Captains could lead Termie armies, but Belial's Deathwing would be the best of the best.

[the jeske]

all Terminator Captains could lead Termie armies, but Belial's Deathwing would be the best of the best.
ergo everyone would take bel . he wouldnt feel like a "DA mode" , DA would not only feel cheated for losing a dex , but also by the fact suddenly something that they could do is given to ultras and their clones.

briliant idea. was already tried by GW by the way . they made the chaos dex . everyone could take everything [oblits for allx9 vindicators for all x3 etc] specials/marks/icons could be mixed. kind of a didnt work so well for the chaos community and GW as sells of chaos goes.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

ergo everyone would take bel . he wouldnt feel like a "DA mode" , DA would not only feel cheated for losing a dex , but also by the fact suddenly something that they could do is given to ultras and their clones.Right now, if someone who isn't Dark Angel/Space Wolf wants to do an all-termie army, they don't go "awwww, darn", they just use C;DA or C:SW anyways, so that's not really any different. If the Dark Angels are in the same 'dex, then someone wanting to do an all-Termie Salamanders force might choose a generic Salamanders Termie Captain if it gave them the Salamanders weapon buff, no?

I guess some people might be grumpy about "losing" a codex, but that seems kinda irrational since the current "Dark Angels"y things wouldn't be lost in importing them to a vanilla 'dex (apart from the stuff that's a vestige of older codex design).


briliant idea. was already tried by GW by the way . they made the chaos dex . everyone could take everything [oblits for allx9 vindicators for all x3 etc] specials/marks/icons could be mixed. kind of a didnt work so well for the chaos community and GW as sells of chaos goes.The difference in this case being Chapter Tactics don't mix (a system which can't work for Chaos, unfortunately), so you couldn't have Imperial Fist/Ravenguard combos.

[Schlitzaf]

I don't know about my fellow BT but I would like a few new non-forged world units to play around with

[el_pablo65]

Repeating my thoughts from the rumors page, sorry, but C:Sm will need to get a little initial love if the 6th ed rumors I have heard are true.

Recent Necron fliers are among the reasons that flight seems to be a key component in the new edition. My Blue Book battle force only has fliers that fly straight down.

[AngryMarine]

There's no way GW will replace the Ultramarines as the face; not now anyway. With the video game, cg movie and book line gearing people towards the forces of Ultramar, it seems unlikely that they'd intentionally bury them in favor of another chapter that may not be as noob friendly, or commercially recognizable.

[sandtrap]

There's no way GW will replace the Ultramarines as the face; not now anyway. With the video game, cg movie and book line gearing people towards the forces of Ultramar, it seems unlikely that they'd intentionally bury them in favor of another chapter that may not be as noob friendly, or commercially recognizable.

so true, that would be like GW shooting itself in the foot

[Komosunder]

although ultra will aways be the baby. i can see them moving on to a more "pure faction" as the face of 6th.

[Goochman]

GW need to start doing Codex for all the different Astares ( First Founding ) they where supposed to be created with different battle stiles so they can cover a wide range of battle grounds, I'm personally play 4 armies and 3 of them are vanilla WTF, I'm tired of this "Vanilla" crap.
They need to get their stuff together, fine if they want to release DA and CSM ( even I think Chaos is over rated ) but what about the rest of the Chapters? Why does GW keeps doing the darn Ultrasmurfs the best? ( when ANY real SM player knows that's mot true )
Brother G

*" The Emperor Protects"*
Remember the Fallen Brothers of Rynns World

[Chuck777]

Ultramarines were the poster boys for 4th and 5th edition but the big poster child army in 3rd edition were the Crimson Fists.

As for all the periferal products with Ultramarines, just because GW's marketing arm is doing that does not mean GW's model and rules arm isn't doing something else. If GW were smart, they would have released a codex or chapter approved ragdex for the Blood Ravens years ago to capitalize on that chapter's popularity.

[Pendragon38]

Ultramarines were the poster boys for 4th and 5th edition but the big poster child army in 3rd edition were the Crimson Fists.

As for all the periferal products with Ultramarines, just because GW's marketing arm is doing that does not mean GW's model and rules arm isn't doing something else. If GW were smart, they would have released a codex or chapter approved ragdex for the Blood Ravens years ago to capitalize on that chapter's popularity.
Sorry to shoot you down but BT was 3ed they had a box set with DE and the new land speeder 2nd CF and RT was BA

[Wolfshade]

GW need to start doing Codex for all the different Astares ( First Founding ) they where supposed to be created with different battle stiles so they can cover a wide range of battle grounds
After the heresy Roboute Guilliman published his Codex Astartes to which all the First founding and successor chapters should be following. Given that the Ultramarines were the largest of all the Chapters (that stayed loyal at least) as they were split they would keep their gene-lords teachings, there is also lots of references the the Ultramarine geneseed being one of the most stable so a significant number of later founding chapters use this as their basis and so again would quite strictly adhere to the teachings.
The problem with do a codex for each of the first foundings is that you would end up with 18 (+2) codecii for powered armoured boys, +1 GKs. Then compare that with the xenos which is 7? and you have a very unbalanced world. By exentension different necron forces from different tomb worlds would fight in different styles, as would the eldar of different craft worlds and pretty soon you have a huge number of codecii but very little different choices. My personal view of the Codex Space Marine is that it is such a broad book that you can use it to field a number of different armies that are different flavours but are still adherants to the Codex Astartes.

[Chuck777]

Sorry to shoot you down but BT was 3ed they had a box set with DE and the new land speeder 2nd CF and RT was BA

Oh right. BT were in the starter set and Crimson Fists were on the Codex cover!

Regardless the point still stands, it is not unprecedented for GW to not go with the Ultramarines.

[Camael]

Well . Not to mention they are on the list of codexes (codici?) that need some love'n.
;)

In case you were genuinely curious, its codices :)

[Goochman]

After the heresy Roboute Guilliman published his Codex Astartes to which all the First founding and successor chapters should be following. Given that the Ultramarines were the largest of all the Chapters (that stayed loyal at least) as they were split they would keep their gene-lords teachings, there is also lots of references the the Ultramarine geneseed being one of the most stable so a significant number of later founding chapters use this as their basis and so again would quite strictly adhere to the teachings.
The problem with do a codex for each of the first foundings is that you would end up with 18 (+2) codecii for powered armoured boys, +1 GKs. Then compare that with the xenos which is 7? and you have a very unbalanced world. By exentension different necron forces from different tomb worlds would fight in different styles, as would the eldar of different craft worlds and pretty soon you have a huge number of codecii but very little different choices. My personal view of the Codex Space Marine is that it is such a broad book that you can use it to field a number of different armies that are different flavours but are still adherants to the Codex Astartes.
Yeah I know that Guilliman wrote the codex but really how many chapters follow it?
The Wolves don't care
The Dark Angels do their own thing
The Templars same
The White Scars don't even mention it.

I'm just saying that if GW got organized , they should write the codex per First founding Chapter ( writing their specialties )
and then write the special rules for their subsidiary chapters ex.
Codex Imperial Fist, inside rules for the IF then a section for Templars and Crimson Fist.
Chaos is another thing they can keep it how they are doing it, for the Xenos it could be the same as Codex Astares ( Eldar then all info on the different craftworlds )

What do you think?
Brother G

[Wolfshade]

Yeah I know that Guilliman wrote the codex but really how many chapters follow it?
First founding: 20 legions
2 "cease to exist"
remaing half falls to chaos

Roboute Guilliman publishes the Codex Astartes and thus the 2nd founding occurs
Blood Angel gene seed (5):
Angels Encarmine
Angels Sanguine
Angels Vermillion
Blood Drinkers
Flesh Tearers

Dark Angel gene seed (3):
Angels of Absolution
Angels of Redemption
Angels of Vengeance

Imperial Fists gene seed (3):
Black Templars
Crimson Fists
Soul Drinkers

Iron Hands gene seed (2):
Brazen Claw
Red Talons

Raven Guard gene seed (3):
Black Guard
Raptors
Revilers

Space Wolves gene seed (1):
Wolf Brothers

Ultramarines gene seed (16):
Aurora Chapter
Black Consuls
Doom Eagles
Eagle Warriors
Genesis Chapter
Inceptors
Iron Snakes
Libators
Mortifactors
Nemesis
Novamarines
Patriarchs of Ulixis
Praetors of Orpheus
Silver Eagles
Silver Skulls
White Consuls

White Scars gene seed (4):
Destroyers
Marauders
Rampagers
Storm Lords

Salamanders gene seed (0)

So after the 2nd founding we have 17 (of 45) which is 38%, this is just direct Ultramarine decendants and is excluding those chapters which would have adopted the codex Astartes anyway.
In Index Astartes, Russ, Vulkan and Dorn opposed the codex and allied together while Khan, Corax supported Guilliman with it, suggesting Raven Guard and their sucessors successors and White Scars and their sucessors would adher to its tennants. Which gives us 26/45 followers at the height of the crisis.
After the Iron Cage (Imperial Fists vs Iron Warrior campaign), Dorn accepts the tenants and spends two decades learning Guillimans works. Then he and his legion (and sucessors) become very strict adherants to it, however it is noted that the Book of Five Spheres is also taught but as a suplementary text to Guillimans. This pushes the adherants upto 30.
Within Codex Blood Angel it explicity says that they adhere to Guilliman's text so that puts us at 80%.
The remaining legions all split showing adherance and all at least reference that they tend to at least follow the codex's organisational structure.

[Goochman]

First founding: 20 legions
2 "cease to exist"
remaing half falls to chaos

Roboute Guilliman publishes the Codex Astartes and thus the 2nd founding occurs
Blood Angel gene seed (5):
Angels Encarmine
Angels Sanguine
Angels Vermillion
Blood Drinkers
Flesh Tearers

Dark Angel gene seed (3):
Angels of Absolution
Angels of Redemption
Angels of Vengeance

Imperial Fists gene seed (3):
Black Templars
Crimson Fists
Soul Drinkers

Iron Hands gene seed (2):
Brazen Claw
Red Talons

Raven Guard gene seed (3):
Black Guard
Raptors
Revilers

Space Wolves gene seed (1):
Wolf Brothers

Ultramarines gene seed (16):
Aurora Chapter
Black Consuls
Doom Eagles
Eagle Warriors
Genesis Chapter
Inceptors
Iron Snakes
Libators
Mortifactors
Nemesis
Novamarines
Patriarchs of Ulixis
Praetors of Orpheus
Silver Eagles
Silver Skulls
White Consuls

White Scars gene seed (4):
Destroyers
Marauders
Rampagers
Storm Lords

Salamanders gene seed (0)

So after the 2nd founding we have 17 (of 45) which is 38%, this is just direct Ultramarine decendants and is excluding those chapters which would have adopted the codex Astartes anyway.
In Index Astartes, Russ, Vulkan and Dorn opposed the codex and allied together while Khan, Corax supported Guilliman with it, suggesting Raven Guard and their sucessors successors and White Scars and their sucessors would adher to its tennants. Which gives us 26/45 followers at the height of the crisis.
After the Iron Cage (Imperial Fists vs Iron Warrior campaign), Dorn accepts the tenants and spends two decades learning Guillimans works. Then he and his legion (and sucessors) become very strict adherants to it, however it is noted that the Book of Five Spheres is also taught but as a suplementary text to Guillimans. This pushes the adherants upto 30.
Within Codex Blood Angel it explicity says that they adhere to Guilliman's text so that puts us at 80%.
The remaining legions all split showing adherance and all at least reference that they tend to at least follow the codex's organisational structure.
So, what you are saying is that GW shouldn't do it? ( Jeez I got a math and history answer )
LOL
It was a rhetorical question when I said how many chapters follow the codex. I know how the fluff goes.
But if you come and see still even this Legions accepted the writings of Guilliman why their second founding got other organizations? Ex. Black Templars, they are from IF stock ( and IF Legion accepted the writings , shouldn't they not have a different organization that a regular Vanilla Marine? Even if they are as zealots as they are? .)
I still believe that the codex's should be just the First founders and a section on the second founded chapters.
I believe that would make the game better and have players have different options ( making it funner ) Not having armies that are supposed to come from different Legions have everything the same just because they are vanilla.

Brother G

[inquisitorsog]

Yeah I know that Guilliman wrote the codex but really how many chapters follow it?
The Wolves don't care
The Dark Angels do their own thing
The Templars same
The White Scars don't even mention it.

I'm just saying that if GW got organized , they should write the codex per First founding Chapter ( writing their specialties )
and then write the special rules for their subsidiary chapters ex.
Codex Imperial Fist, inside rules for the IF then a section for Templars and Crimson Fist.
Chaos is another thing they can keep it how they are doing it, for the Xenos it could be the same as Codex Astares ( Eldar then all info on the different craftworlds )

What do you think?
Brother G

From a fluff perspective, there's differences.

The question of the GAME though causes a different perspective. White Scars are quite different fluffwise, but in game terms, aren't they really more a FOC change than anything? They're still MEQs, just Meched MEQs. Same with Iron Hands and Salamanders: the same, just different. That makes for some terribly boring codices and makes the game worse IMO as with new codices comes the temptation for more special rules to justify each dex.

Just my own opinion, but there's WAY too many Imperial dexes as it is. Looking at tourney results, I see too much blue on blue. I think that a Nurgle dex would be much higher priority, or a Hrud dex, or an Exodite dex. Or a Blood Pact/Traitor Guard dex.

Again, just my two filthy dinars.

[Wolfshade]

Sorry, quite often when people say "how many of that..." or "what are the chances of that happening?" I start to calculate them, it is the way my mind works.
In my mind there are two slightly different ways to approach this answer, without going through every founding ever made (not enough data ;))
There is the game view, which would argue that while it would be possible to have a different codex for each legion/chapter this would put far too many space marine codecii into the game, there are people who already argue that having BA, DA, SW, BT, SM is four too many. There was a concerted effort in the latest codex space marine to enable different styles of play and thus representing each legions historical preference for conducting war,i.e. being able to have bike units count as troops. Then there is an argument that says if each legion of marines get their own codex to demonstrate how they vary on a common theme then surely the different way guard armies are organised they would need to have their own codex after all the tanith first and only is going to be organised very differently to the tallarns, and then to the valhallens. Similarly, SoB each chapel would have its own style specialisation and this is without touching the different xenos...You could end up with a situation whereby you have far too many books to be able to play a game smoothly, also each book would need its own special characters and "variants" which would be small scale runs and I doubt would be profitable [warning conjecture!].I would say the reason why the game can get away with so many marine codecii is owning to the vast number of gamers who play it, and so they can make books and miniatures for those chapters as there are enough of a market, but increasing those in the space marine market may end up pushing the margins down.
From the fluff view, every one should be more or less codex adherent. At one point the different legions were mini-dex which referenced you to the main codex space marine. This view point I would say would be more in favour of having an all encompassing codex space marine, with the ability to make special builds, like "if you choose a marshal as your HQ, you may include neophytes within tactical squads etc.."
I don't disagree with you with the idea that the other legions traits would be nice to be seen and expanded, but I fear that it could be a bit unweildy and become Space Marine: Warhammer 40,000 in the grim future there is only power armoured loyalists

[Goochman]

From a fluff perspective, there's differences.

The question of the GAME though causes a different perspective. White Scars are quite different fluffwise, but in game terms, aren't they really more a FOC change than anything? They're still MEQs, just Meched MEQs. Same with Iron Hands and Salamanders: the same, just different. That makes for some terribly boring codices and makes the game worse IMO as with new codices comes the temptation for more special rules to justify each dex.

Just my own opinion, but there's WAY too many Imperial dexes as it is. Looking at tourney results, I see too much blue on blue. I think that a Nurgle dex would be much higher priority, or a Hrud dex, or an Exodite dex. Or a Blood Pact/Traitor Guard dex.

Again, just my two filthy dinars.
Got it !!!
:)
I still believe that there are still room for improvement, and the codices should be just the First Founding.

Brother G

[Goochman]

Sorry, quite often when people say "how many of that..." or "what are the chances of that happening?" I start to calculate them, it is the way my mind works.
In my mind there are two slightly different ways to approach this answer, without going through every founding ever made (not enough data ;))
There is the game view, which would argue that while it would be possible to have a different codex for each legion/chapter this would put far too many space marine codecii into the game, there are people who already argue that having BA, DA, SW, BT, SM is four too many. There was a concerted effort in the latest codex space marine to enable different styles of play and thus representing each legions historical preference for conducting war,i.e. being able to have bike units count as troops. Then there is an argument that says if each legion of marines get their own codex to demonstrate how they vary on a common theme then surely the different way guard armies are organised they would need to have their own codex after all the tanith first and only is going to be organised very differently to the tallarns, and then to the valhallens. Similarly, SoB each chapel would have its own style specialisation and this is without touching the different xenos...You could end up with a situation whereby you have far too many books to be able to play a game smoothly, also each book would need its own special characters and "variants" which would be small scale runs and I doubt would be profitable [warning conjecture!].I would say the reason why the game can get away with so many marine codecii is owning to the vast number of gamers who play it, and so they can make books and miniatures for those chapters as there are enough of a market, but increasing those in the space marine market may end up pushing the margins down.
From the fluff view, every one should be more or less codex adherent. At one point the different legions were mini-dex which referenced you to the main codex space marine. This view point I would say would be more in favour of having an all encompassing codex space marine, with the ability to make special builds, like "if you choose a marshal as your HQ, you may include neophytes within tactical squads etc.."
I don't disagree with you with the idea that the other legions traits would be nice to be seen and expanded, but I fear that it could be a bit unweildy and become Space Marine: Warhammer 40,000 in the grim future there is only power armoured loyalists
Wolf I like that Idea, one thing that GW should do. I vote for that ;)
One of the bugs that bite me A LOT is the fact that Codex SM has way too many characters for the Ultrasmurfs. Not good I say.
:(

Brother G

[Wolfshade]

Wolf I like that Idea, one thing that GW should do. I vote for that ;)
One of the bugs that bite me A LOT is the fact that Codex SM has way too many characters for the Ultrasmurfs. Not good I say.
:(

Not good indeed, but we are only just starting to know some of these legions/chapters so hopefully, in time GW will be able to give us special characters that reflect the nature of these often over looked legions and give a couple, of course then there is the difficulty of making them different and unique.
But no one will have as many as the poster-marines...

[Goochman]

Not good indeed, but we are only just starting to know some of these legions/chapters so hopefully, in time GW will be able to give us special characters that reflect the nature of these often over looked legions and give a couple, of course then there is the difficulty of making them different and unique.
But no one will have as many as the poster-marines...
That's so true Wolf....
It is ridiculous how many characters they have.

Brother G