Can Space Marines have sex?

[Rissan4ever]

I've read that Marines get "chemically castrated," but it's unclear exactly what that means. I know Space Marines can't produce children, but is the sex drive still there? Can anybody shed some light?

[Kaiserdean]

Um... what?

[ElectricPaladin]

This can't be right - Salamanders still get married, have children, and act as chieftains to the tribes from which they are recruited. For other Chapters, I think sex is seen as a distraction and probably prohibited, but I don't think they are incapable or chemically disinterested. They're just... well... warrior monks of space. Monkish. Celibate by choice and oath.

[Psychosplodge]

Yes but they have to find one of these or they break it...

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs6/i/2005/070/f/9/Space_Marine_Illustration_by_dawnbest.jpg

[gcsmith]

Yes but they have to find one of these or they break it...

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs6/i/2005/070/f/9/Space_Marine_Illustration_by_dawnbest.jpg

A female space marine without any genetic modification? don't see how they are a marine :)

[Psychosplodge]

A female space marine without any genetic modification? don't see how they are a marine :)
lol could be modified...
she does seem to be somwat gravity resistant...

[Aldramelech]

I've read that Marines get "chemically castrated," but it's unclear exactly what that means. I know Space Marines can't produce children, but is the sex drive still there? Can anybody shed some light?


Who cares?

[Wildcard]

Who cares?

This, a thousand times this..

You got the action, you got the moves, and lots of lots of blood.. sex is only in the way..

I mean, how many good action movies have you seen where some romance / sex scene etc. has just ruined it?

And on the other hand: How much bigger are marines than the larger mens? 1.5 times? And that includes all the body parts.. Who would (or even could) take that much inside?

Makes me wonder, why do you even ask?

(This regarding regular guardsmen would have been totally different case - we've all seen those funny splatter movies, one kiss here or there wont affect the outcome) ;)

[phoenix01]

Yes but they have to find one of these or they break it...

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs6/i/2005/070/f/9/Space_Marine_Illustration_by_dawnbest.jpg

I think this just goes to prove what many of us have thought for years: the Dark Angels are just a bunch of girls.

[Rissan4ever]

I'm asking because I'm running a Deathwatch RP campaign, and it might come up.

[=Angel=]

I've read that Marines get "chemically castrated," but it's unclear exactly what that means. I know Space Marines can't produce children, but is the sex drive still there? Can anybody shed some light?

It's not a juvenile question, it's a thoughtful one that recognises that Space-marines are not simply killing machines, they are human beings who have been genetically and hypnotically turned into killing machines.

They retain the capacity to exhibit humour and camaraderie, sadness and so forth.

The sex drive is a part of our identities, and whether it remains would largely depend on the process used to create them.
Most chapters use Hypno-indoctrination which makes them super loyal and teaches them battle tactics.
As a general rule I'd say that the sex drive is repressed in loyalist space marines and that is one of the avenues that a renegade spacemarine explores when he leaves his chapter.
As described in the beginning of CCSM, one of the only worthwhile passages in that terrible book, when a marine leaves his chapter he suddenly finds that
(being an Astartes) he has a lot of power and
(without a commander/hypno idoctrination) He is free to abuse that power to satisfy every whim.

So a renegade or Chaos marine can go nuts and eat/kill/mount whatever they want.

TL/DR- It depends on the chapter, but generally loyalists have a repressed sex drive, chaos: hide your daughters, hide your wives.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Who cares?

I care, because it's an interesting topic. You learn more about societies from what they hide than what they reveal.

Also, it's very relevant for players of games like "Deathwatch" who are interested in doing more than just blow stuff up (again, like me).

It's the difference between "CSI" and "The Wire". Some of us prefer actual realism in our work (which means looking at things like, say, human emotion, rather than a list of different ammo types).


You got the action, you got the moves, and lots of lots of blood.. sex is only in the way..

I mean, how many good action movies have you seen where some romance / sex scene etc. has just ruined it?

Maybe I don't want to see an action film? Maybe the full ramifications of what it means to be a supersoldier are just as interesting as how many kills I can get?

It all depends on what kind of stories you like. If you like action films, great. If you don't like the idea of deconstructing what it actually means to be a space marine, then please remember - some of us do. And we're not wrong to find it an interesting question. Because sex and intimacy are part of human existence, and can make for profoundly fascinating stories. If you have nothing to add to the conversation beyond "I don't care", maybe you shouldn't be adding anything in the first place.

Back on-topic, according to "Deathwatch", not all marines are chem-gelded (basically castrated, either through a partial lobotomy, chemical supressants, or just having your genitals removed). You can take it as an "advantage" that makes you better at resisting seduction.

However, Marines are still men, and unless they have taken the chem-geld option (or possibly had it forced on them), they can have sex.

Whether they would do or not depends on either the author (if a novel) or player (if an RPG).

As it stands, I would imagine that all thoughts of sex and all vestiges of sexuality would be sublimated by the strict religion the Astartes follow - they are monks after all. The Litanies of Hate the chaplains use are probably done entirely for this reason. Sex and violence are often inextricably linked, especially in the minds of those who can only percieve human relationships in terms of a power differential.

So can Marines have sex? Usually, yes: they are physically capable of the act.

Do they? Probably not usually - the life of an Astartes is an ascetic one of strict denial, devotion, duty, and hatred.

Are they capable of intimacy? Definitely. But only with other marines, because only other marines can understand them. I would imagine there were a great many deeply intimate bonds of love between marines in a chapter or squad - remember, they do call one another "brother". That is not to imply homosexuality (though it will occur in marines because it occurs in the general population, I imagine a gay marine qwould have the same outlook on sex as a straight one, i.e.: it's sublimated into acts of horrific violence by the chapter's religion); rather that marines would form intensely close, deeply meaningful relationships with one another ("a band of brothers") that are, to all intents and purposes, love.

But without any kind of sexual acts occurring. When it comes to sexuality, I imagine marines are a lot like Sherlock Holmes. It's something uncomfortable, disturbing, and deeply disquieting; something other people do. I would imagine there's a deep discomfort with women as a result; not a hatred per se, just a distrust of something so utterly "other".

Basically I reckon that their indoctrinaton leaves Marines stunted emotional cripples. Good at killing? Undeniable. The best of humanity's warriors? No question. But still, deeply, deeply messed up by an upbringing that by modern standards could only be described as abusive.

The Imperium is not a nice place after all, and there is a price that has to be paid for martial prowess.

[Gotthammer]

In the short story Deathwing one of the marines, Bloody Moon, comments on how they are trained to see the transient nature of physical acts and have no interest in them, and the story also implies their brotherhood and love for the Emperor supplants the need for romantic involvement (though it is one of the themes that Cloud Runner regrets becoming a marine as he had to leave his betrothed behind, so indicates he still feels an emotional attachment).

In Space Marine Lexandro muses on the fact that he's hardly seen any women in decades, and recals his youthful escapades with a mix of amusement and alienation. He also comments he can't really remember what it was like and has no desire for it (and can't really remember his own sisters' faces).

[=Angel=]

That is not to imply homosexuality (though it will occur in marines because it occurs in the general population, I imagine a gay marine qwould have the same outlook on sex as a straight one, i.e.:

i.e.- they aspire to be ULTRAMARINES.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/4852421/images/1244815353918.jpg?iact=hc&vpx=187&vpy=128&dur=2457&hovh=258&hovw=195&tx=149&ty=145&sig=109773226640902656456&ei=-72FT_GtCsOIhQeZueCnCA&page=1&tbnh=156&tbnw=129&start=0&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:64

[Necron2.0]

I read a study that linked sex and aggression. The study monitored brain activity in a male test group as they watched porn and as they played violent video games. What the researchers saw is that the same or regionally co-located areas of the brain were being activated when the subjects were sexually aroused as when they were eliciting an aggression response. Further research showed that these areas of the brain (in males at least) are also involved in other predatory behavior (i.e. hunting).

In this context, what this means is if the sex drive of the Space Marine is hampered, his effectiveness on the battlefield will be reduced proportionally. As such, chemically or (worse) physically castrating your military force would be a huge mistake. Extreme policies of celibacy could be very effective, however. Basically, it'd mean your fighting force would always be "horny" for battle.

[MaltonNecromancer]

@ Angel: Bara marines? Oh how I approve. :)

To quote "Robot Unicorn Attack": "If your masculinity is threatened, you're not man enough to play this game".

@Necron 2.0: let us not forget the phenomena of the "combat jack", as well as other related issues. Being a soldier can do very strange things to your sexuality, and they're not things that are often spoken about (because, by and large, sexuality is a private matter, especially if you're someone who has been taught that "soft" emotions are weakness - like space marines would have been.)

[Sure]

We need Space Marines to be unable to Texas Two-Step because the gaming community couldn't handle it. I know there will be a few people to swear up and down on this internet that the following doesn't apply to them, but we all know that it applies to them most.

Our community couldn't handle it because there are enough sexually threatening things out there, primarily others who are more attractive to our chosen objects of desire than we are. The last thing we need is to be reminded of this through the Space Marines. They may be super smart, super strong, nigh unbeatable, capable of mastering skills beyond compare (like their bowhunting and nunchuk skills)...but if it comes down to just me and him, if I don't get the girl nobody does! Unless of course eating her brain will yield some tactical advantage....

[Kaiserdean]

I care, because it's an interesting topic. You learn more about societies from what they hide than what they reveal.

Also, it's very relevant for players of games like "Deathwatch" who are interested in doing more than just blow stuff up (again, like me).


That's an interesting answer to the OP question. However, the OP did not include any details and only asked if Marines can have sex without any context as to why he asked. Maybe he wanted to convert some models loving instead of fighting, maybe he wanted to write some fanfic, or maybe he was trying to figure out an armor save against pregnancy; we didn't know.

However, I believe the answer is no. They are like monks and in the grim future, there is only war. The previous edition codex outlined a typical day for a marine went: Eat, pray, kill. Then there was some more praying and training to kill.

[ragnarcissist]

the real question is... would you watch?

[Denzark]

I feel sorry for them. It is well nigh impossible to get a Space Marine pissed. This is a shame because as the legendary Oliver Read stated, 'Drunks make the best lovers'.

At least one thing we know is that SM do not have lesbian sex... because there are no female SM.

[MaltonNecromancer]

That's an interesting answer to the OP question. However, the OP did not include any details and only asked if Marines can have sex without any context as to why he asked. Maybe he wanted to convert some models loving instead of fighting, maybe he wanted to write some fanfic, or maybe he was trying to figure out an armor save against pregnancy; we didn't know.

Not relevant, as I wasn't addressing the OP with that response. If you'd paid attention, you'd have seen that I wasn't replying to the original poster. I was replying to Adramelech, who asked "who cares". To which the answer is "me. I care".

I don't mind why the OP posted the topic. I do mind when people dismiss a topic as being unworthy of consideration just because they deem it unworthy of consideration. So, there it is. You may have noticed that I gave a full reponse to the OP's question just below my response to the "who cares" question.

[Aldramelech]

Still don't care

[MaltonNecromancer]

Good for you.

Here's your seal of approval.
http://img.anongallery.org/img/7/8/seal-of-approval.jpg

Still not sure why you're posting in a topic that you don't care about, but fair enough.

[The Night]

I had always thought that in general Space Marines were capable of having sex, but weren't interested in it, weren't allowed to have it because of their warrior religion, or because they were to busy being nigh unstoppable demi-gods that are fighting in some god-forsaken part of the galaxy for about 98% of their lives. I do however remember reading in the old Space Wolf books about Ragnar that right after he had become a Blood Claw he was sent on a mission with an inquisitor who was accompanied by a women psyker. On his first encounter with them he remarks that he thought that she was the beautiful women he had ever seen. So it would seem that Space Marines are still able the accept the concept of beauty and sex, but have no need for it. I have also read other times where other Space Marines can also gauge the beauty of someone, but at the same time it has been so long since they were truly 'human" that they have no real concept of what we as humans find attractive. Once you think about it too, many Space marine veterans are centuries old and would probably not have had sex, or even thought about it, for several decades. So in the end, yes I think they can have sex, but the whole idea of intimacy and sex would probably be lost upon the vast majority of Space Marines. Not to mention how awkward and dangerous for an eight foot tall 500 pound Space Marine to have sex with some normal human female lol.

[ElectricPaladin]

And on the other hand: How much bigger are marines than the larger mens? 1.5 times? And that includes all the body parts. Who would (or even could) take that much inside?

First of all, lady parts regularly spit out babies. Babies! Small human beings! I don't care how big you think you are: a baby is way, way more than one and a half times the size of your penis. So, while some women (or men) might not find being done by a space marine to their taste, it certainly isn't anatomically impossible. Babies!

Secondly, a space marine's genetic "enhancements" are targeted. Space marines are roughly one and a half the size of a normal human, sure, but some of their parts are still normal sized - heads, in particular. In fact, space marines have fairly normal-sized heads, which is part of why they look like tiny-headed freaks (the other part is "heroic scale"). My guess is that increasing the size of his space marines' junk was not high on the Emperor's list of priorities. In fact, I bet he specifically wanted their junk to be normal-sized, so as to not present a tempting target. Normal sized junk would be pretty easy to hide away inside power armor.

Anyway, honestly, most space marine sex is probably gay sex.

Think about it: you and Brother Caladius have fought side-by-side in countless battles. You've saved each other's lives more times than either of you can count. When Brother Caladius was infested with Spore-Worms, you sat by his side in the Hosptallium reciting the nine hundred and ninety-nine Hymns to of the Emperor's Mercy, reminding him of his duty until he regained consciousness. When your right arm was blasted apart by a traitor's meltagun, it was Brother Caladius who helped you adjust to the new biotics, practicing with you until you regained your former prowess. Women? Even if you hadn't sworn oaths of celibacy, it's been decades since you've seen a woman who wasn't an Eldar temptress, Slaaneshi cultist, bloated corpse, or terrified malnourished refugee. No... if you and Brother Caladius share something beyond the typical bond of battle-brothers, whose business is it but yours? May the Emperor have mercy on anyone foolish enough to stand between you.

[Rapture]

First of all, lady parts regularly spit out babies. Babies! Small human beings! I don't care how big you think you are: a baby is way, way more than one and a half times the size of your penis. So, while some women (or men) might not find being done by a space marine to their taste, it certainly isn't anatomically impossible. Babies!

I am sorry, but even a hypothetical discussion about 40k cannot have this kind of anti-logic. The physical and chemical changes that a woman goes through to deliver a baby do not occur during intercourse.

[ElectricPaladin]

I am sorry, but even a hypothetical discussion about 40k cannot have this kind of anti-logic. The physical and chemical changes that a woman goes through to deliver a baby do not occur during intercourse.

We'd need someone with more medical knowledge than either of us (unless you're a doctor, which could be true - in the Internet no one knows that you're a dog). I'm aware that women's bodies go through changes during pregnancy, and yes, I'm aware that some of those changes involve hormones that loosen some muscles. However, the uterus and vagina don't add any cells. They don't get larger, just a little stretchier.

That said, I'm pretty sure even without the aforementioned chemical and anatomical changes, the average capacity of the average vagina is still way more than half again the size of a typical penis.

Non-logic? I don't think so. I'll confess to a certain degree of ignorance about the details, but I'm still pretty sure that I'm right here. Penis plus one half will not wreck the average vagina.

...

Man, the things I end up writing on wargames forums...

[the jeske]

Non-logic? I don't think so. I'll confess to a certain degree of ignorance about the details, but I'm still pretty sure that I'm right here. Penis plus one half will not wreck the average vagina.
how do you know ? maybe space marines spit acid.



SW do have sex . ragnart at least 1 time after being turned and lukas countless times after being turned spacemarine.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

SW do have sex . ragnart at least 1 time after being turned and lukas countless times after being turned spacemarine. Where's that bit about Ragnar from? Also, all the counts of Lukas "sharing a dozen beds" were before he became a space marine.

In Fulgrim, it's noted that Space Marines don't feel any sex drive - although being under heavy Slaaneshi corruption made a Space Marine who saw a scantily clad woman "have a strange feeling".

I've always taken it as them lacking sex drive, possibly even genitals, in the modern fluff, although there are many references to them sexin' it up in older fluff - but that older fluff also has parts such as portraying Space Marines as promoted guardsmen or the Utramarines chief librarian being half-eldar.

[LordGrise]

Eh, I always thought they just welded them into the armor and left it at that. Yes, I know the Youtube vid is from another game. It's still appropriate.

Remove the sex drive from a man and you get an eunuch. Calm under most provocation, he sublimates his sexual drives into whatever interests he develops or is directed into. Hmm, sounds about right... but tough to sell. I wouldn't want to be one of them...

I would have thought there'd be some guidance on this subject for those folks writing for publication on the subject.

I'm sorry, but I have never been able to get into the Space Marines; not the models, not the books (the only ones I enjoyed at all are the Space Wolf novels; the others generally have me chucking the thing away in frustration; I actually took the Blood Angel book back and demanded a refund ) and especially not the general concept. This is a good chunk of why. I can't identify with them, and I can't admire them; I find myself sorry for them and frustrated as hell with them.

[the jeske]

all the counts of Lukas "sharing a dozen beds" were before he became a space marine.
you mean he beded women in a male centered sociaty at the tender age of 12-13y old ? maybe less considering it had to be before the implantation .

[phoenix01]

Lukas the Trickster is described as quite the ladies' man.

[gwensdad]

I remember seeing in some old, old article a statement about the White Scars being the only (loyal) chapter to be able to produce children and that was due to a defect in the gene seed.

Now I wish I could find that. But like everything else White Scar it's probably been retconned 10X over by now. (pet peeve topic I'll be starting sometime)

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

you mean he beded women in a male centered sociaty at the tender age of 12-13y old ? maybe less considering it had to be before the implantation . "A near-legendary figure amongst Fenris' womenfolk, Lukas was once famous for sharing a dozen beds in a single night. But since his elevation to the ranks of the Space Wolves it is Lukas' contributions to the Chapter's war efforts that have earned him lasting respect amongst his fellow Blood Claws." - Space Wolves 'dex, p.52

In older societies boys would come of age much earlier, due to the higher rate of mortality demanding more active men. A good example of this is the Bar Mitzvah, which began a longass time ago and granted a boy manhood/right to marry/own land at the age of 13. Back in good ol' Rome, the minimum marriageable age was 12. Remember that Fenris is a stone/iron-age society with very high mortality. Remember, the standards of "modern" western culture cannot be applied to all cultures ever.

Also, the upper limit for implantation has occasionally been mentioned to be 15-16, it varies by the Chapter's practices - which are pretty flexible for Space Wolves.

And where did you get that bit of info about Ragnar?

[Uncle Nutsy]

man when i saw the title of this thread, i thought 'wouldn't it be sort of like this?'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0hwFDH-Vdg

[the jeske]

In older societies boys would come of age much earlier, due to the higher rate of mortality demanding more active men
that is if anything partly true for the whole history [it never drops under 14y +depands on how much food there is . not enough food being adult kicks in later] and not true when it comes to tribale sociaties like we go on fenris . at 12 he wouldnt have be even able to join to wolf packs [young teen dudes out to get fame and minimal loot] , he wouldnt own a boat to fish [no fish , no trading =no wealth] . And considering he is 12 maybe 13 when he gets taken away by the priests , he wouldnt even come under the "poor but desirable" point of view for some women . At 12 he is not a man .



A good example of this is the Bar Mitzvah, which began a longass time ago and granted a boy manhood/right to marry/own land at the age of 13.
bad example . because while yes he was technicly considered legal [important for pre aranged marriges , trading of "guests" between families , etc] . I wasnt till he was ąround 30 wed and with children people considered him a man . And as land goes the owning of it only worked if there were no male relatives alive and that was realy realy hard to do [plague or war was needed for that and 20+y old have a better chance to survive those those then 13+y olds].


Also, the upper limit for implantation has occasionally been mentioned to be 15-16, it varies by the Chapter's practices - which are pretty flexible for Space Wolves.
the full course is 2-3 years and he cant be 18 or over it durning the final implantation as he is too old then . there is a year or year+ build up in those camps on the coast . that is 4+y . max he could have been is 14.
that is still to young to have a chance with anyone , not to mention create a legend[he would need at least a year of travel around different islands for that and as fenris years are actualy 2 years this means he would have to start at 9-10 years old to actualy fit in to the time table].



And where did you get that bit of info about Ragnar?
he banged the navigator chick .

[MaltonNecromancer]

I had always thought that in general Space Marines were capable of having sex, but weren't interested in it,

There's a world of difference between "isn't interested in" and "repressed".

True asexuality (as a sexual orientation) is relatively uncommon; as a "new" (i.e.: underepresented in the past) orientation, there are few stats on it. However, it seems at the moment to occur with roughly the same regularity as homosexuality (i.e.: about 5% of the population).

The remaining 95-odd percent of marines who *do* still have a functioning sex drive will probably be repressing their sexuality, and hard. If we look at things which monks have traditionally used to repress those desires (everything from willpower, through to the extremes of self-flagellation, the celice belt, etc...), it's a fairly safe bet to say that just because someone isn't supposed to like/think about sex, it doesn't mean they aren't.

Having a sex drive is normal, natural, and healthy. Repressing it leads to psychopathological behaviour... which is exactly what the Imperium wants. A healthy sex drive hammered into raw aggression and hatred. There's a whole section on this as a strategy in George Orwell's "1984" (which is essential reading for any fan of 40K).

As for Space Marine winkie size, well, while marines themselves are 1.5 times larger, let us not forget that abnormally high levels of steroids (like, say, testosterone) increase aggression yes... but decrease winkie size in males. Plus, your body produces oestrogen to compensate, giving you... well, if you've seen "Fight Club", you've seen Bob.

So, those probably lower sex drive, makes the Space Marine's tumescent winkie the size of a small chipolata, and increases their aggression (which would then be channelled into killing by their cult of hate).

All-in-all, we're not talking about terribly functional human beings here.


max he could have been is 14.
that is still to young to have a chance with anyone... this means he would have to start at 9-10 years old to actualy fit in to the time table

Here's the thing: there's this thing called "Values Dissonance". Lukas could easily have started at 10. It's horrific, but entirely possible. Lest we forget, back in the times of the Vikings, marriage was at about the age of 12 to 14, because you'd be dead by the age of 25.

Of course, his name is Lukas The Trickster. Do people honestly think this character doesn't lie?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

the full course is 2-3 years and he cant be 18 or over it durning the final implantation as he is too old then . there is a year or year+ build up in those camps on the coast . that is 4+y . max he could have been is 14.
that is still to young to have a chance with anyone , not to mention create a legend[he would need at least a year of travel around different islands for that and as fenris years are actualy 2 years this means he would have to start at 9-10 years old to actualy fit in to the time table].

he banged the navigator chick .I'm thinking you're overgeneralizing on a lot of the info there, but we won't meet a solid conclusion on it. Two points, though:

Space Wolf geneseed implantation process: add Canis Helix, dump recruit in wild. This considerably bulks his size. If he returns alive, immediately add all other organs etc. Faster process than other forms of implantation.

What's your response to: "A near-legendary figure amongst Fenris' womenfolk, Lukas was once famous for sharing a dozen beds in a single night. But since his elevation to the ranks of the Space Wolves it is Lukas' contributions to the Chapter's war efforts that have earned him lasting respect amongst his fellow Blood Claws."? He becomes a legendary lover, becomes a Space Wolf, and is then a legendary fighter.

Which book did that Ragnar thing happen in? Can't find any reference to it at all. Quote would be awesome!

[Drunkencorgimaster]

let us not forget the phenomena of the "combat jack"

How do you think the "Iron Hands" got their name?

[MaltonNecromancer]

How do you think the "Iron Hands" got their name?

And with that, you sir, may have won this thread. :)

[bfmusashi]

Hey everyone, anthropologist here, posting because there's some nonsense about older cultures and when adulthood starts. Adulthood is a cultural construct, not a biological one. If you're talking about sexual maturity, i.e. when an organism can pass on its genes, human males have been recorded doing so from the age of 12 (congrats Britain) though I've read of people thought to be* no more than 8 conceiving offspring.


*because birth certificates are silly.

[Kaiserdean]

Not relevant, as I wasn't addressing the OP with that response. If you'd paid attention, you'd have seen that I wasn't replying to the original poster. I was replying to Adramelech, who asked "who cares". To which the answer is "me. I care".

I don't mind why the OP posted the topic. I do mind when people dismiss a topic as being unworthy of consideration just because they deem it unworthy of consideration. So, there it is. You may have noticed that I gave a full reponse to the OP's question just below my response to the "who cares" question.

I was paying attention and I thought your response was the best reply to the original topic, presented by the OP. I thought it was well rounded and a mature approach to what appeared to be a juvenile question.

I was paying you a compliment but I think you may have missed that.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

And with that, you sir, may have won this thread. :)

Thank you, I'll be here all week!;)

[Drunkencorgimaster]

"let us not forget the phenomena of the "combat jack"

I imagine this also had something to do with the naming of the Crimson Fists.

[MaltonNecromancer]

I imagine this also had something to do with the naming of the Crimson Fists.

Oh that's just so very wrong.


human males have been recorded doing so from the age of 12 (congrats Britain) though I've read of people thought to be* no more than 8 conceiving offspring.

The youngest recorded confirmed (i.e.: non-hoax) mother was aged five.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_Medina

WARNING: genuinely disturbing true story. Made me quite unhappy, may do the same to you.

[Necron2.0]

human males have been recorded doing so from the age of 12 (congrats Britain) though I've read of people thought to be* no more than 8 conceiving offspring.

The youngest recorded confirmed (i.e.: non-hoax) mother was aged five.


As a practical matter, if a child of either sex were physically able to produce offspring at an earlier than normal age, almost by definition the only gender that could demonstrate such an ability would be a girl. It does not require consensual participation on a girl's part for her to conceive. To a greater degree it does require a boy's cooperation.

Now, on the average, research has proven that boys become physically capable of impregnating a girl a year or more before a girl becomes capable of conceiving. Boys develop from the inside out, while girls go the other way around.

Of course, all this is beside the point. As bfmusashi pointed out, the point at which a boy "becomes" a man is purely a social construct.

[Capn Stoogey]

I'm asking because I'm running a Deathwatch RP campaign, and it might come up.

He he, Yeah it might!

:D

[bfmusashi]

The youngest recorded confirmed (i.e.: non-hoax) mother was aged five.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_Medina

WARNING: genuinely disturbing true story. Made me quite unhappy, may do the same to you.

Oh, I'm familiar with her story and it is super classy. I was limiting this to males, as Space Marines are universally male, female sexual maturity didn't seem important.

[eldargal]

I've always felt it would be rather nifty if the hyper-masculine character of the Space Wolves was them desperately clinging onto a traditional masculinity they can no longer be a part of. So spreading stories of womanising, getting drunk, 'flirting' etc. but it is all talk. Much more interesting than 'Vikings in Space even with the sexual conquests' thing they have now. While it is conceivable Lukas could have had sex before being inducted the timing is still off if recruits are chosen around puberty it leaves a very small window of opportunity.

[Denzark]

I have been thinking about this a little bit.

Firstly, ask about the fluff/canon. I think maybe it has been implied ie Ragnar/SW, White Mongol Hordes etc. But never explicitly defined.

This can probably be linked into what I believe is GW policy (I think it was in an article I linked about a year back, on how GW treats their authors) which is mild swearing tick, hyper violence tick, explicit boning, negative.

Secondly, what is implied by the technology? Is it the height of genetic engineering, so they can be aggressive with a sex drive? Are they designed to be eunuchs but without the timidity? A universe with lasers and teleporting could probably do either.

Thirdly, given the above, you probably can do what the hell you like with the scenario so who cares.

Fourthly, and possibly more crucially, why the hell would this ever come up in a RPG scenario?

GM: ‘OK, you marine says to his buddy Solon ‘Hey Solon, howsabout a jaunt down to the battlebarge pub to try and score some hot chickadees?’ Sgt Solons craggy brow frowns, his 3 service studs coming together: ‘Yeah but last time that freaky sister of battle tried to powermaul me when I spilled my Catachan WKD on her’.

Now, roll a D20. On a 12-20 you persuade Solon to be your wingman, and you head to the bar. On a 5-11, Solon orders you to the practise cages and tries to touch your front bottom. On a 1-4, Solon instantly draws his bolt pistol and executes you, you will need to re-generate a new character…’

Surely this is about escapism? The grim darkness of the 41st Millenium, not the SIMs or Eastenders, or some sh*tty reality show. Things you can’t do in real life such as powerfist alien heads, not chat up birds. If you are asking because you want your scenario to be as true to the 40K universe as possible, the answer is that Marines do war, and die, or end up in a dreadnought.

For me a scenario where this just might pop up, is not an interesting delve into the background, nor good character development – rather, just tacky tittivation or smutty dice games. Chasing skirt should be done for real, committing genocide in aliens should be done in games.

People who need to do this in RPG games probably had little plastic Princess Leia in Slave Girl outfit doing reverse cowgirl on little plastic Chewbacca whilst little plastic Han was ‘watching’ when they were younger, and should probably get out more.

[Aldramelech]

I have been thinking about this a little bit.

Firstly, ask about the fluff/canon. I think maybe it has been implied ie Ragnar/SW, White Mongol Hordes etc. But never explicitly defined.

This can probably be linked into what I believe is GW policy (I think it was in an article I linked about a year back, on how GW treats their authors) which is mild swearing tick, hyper violence tick, explicit boning, negative.

Secondly, what is implied by the technology? Is it the height of genetic engineering, so they can be aggressive with a sex drive? Are they designed to be eunuchs but without the timidity? A universe with lasers and teleporting could probably do either.

Thirdly, given the above, you probably can do what the hell you like with the scenario so who cares.

Fourthly, and possibly more crucially, why the hell would this ever come up in a RPG scenario?

GM: ‘OK, you marine says to his buddy Solon ‘Hey Solon, howsabout a jaunt down to the battlebarge pub to try and score some hot chickadees?’ Sgt Solons craggy brow frowns, his 3 service studs coming together: ‘Yeah but last time that freaky sister of battle tried to powermaul me when I spilled my Catachan WKD on her’.

Now, roll a D20. On a 12-20 you persuade Solon to be your wingman, and you head to the bar. On a 5-11, Solon orders you to the practise cages and tries to touch your front bottom. On a 1-4, Solon instantly draws his bolt pistol and executes you, you will need to re-generate a new character…’

Surely this is about escapism? The grim darkness of the 41st Millenium, not the SIMs or Eastenders, or some sh*tty reality show. Things you can’t do in real life such as powerfist alien heads, not chat up birds. If you are asking because you want your scenario to be as true to the 40K universe as possible, the answer is that Marines do war, and die, or end up in a dreadnought.

For me a scenario where this just might pop up, is not an interesting delve into the background, nor good character development – rather, just tacky tittivation or smutty dice games. Chasing skirt should be done for real, committing genocide in aliens should be done in games.

People who need to do this in RPG games probably had little plastic Princess Leia in Slave Girl outfit doing reverse cowgirl on little plastic Chewbacca whilst little plastic Han was ‘watching’ when they were younger, and should probably get out more.

Or, Who cares?;)

[Denzark]

LOL! Ha I queue for the Paradigm for this long and you write my commentary including gratuitous 'front bottom' touching off with 'who cares?'

Ha!

[Aldramelech]

:D

[Kawauso]

This can probably be linked into what I believe is GW policy (I think it was in an article I linked about a year back, on how GW treats their authors) which is mild swearing tick, hyper violence tick, explicit boning, negative.



Except, you know, there's actually plenty of explicit and implicit boning in a number of the books - just none that I've come across involving Astartes in any explicit manner.

And it has nothing to do with people needing to 'get out more'.
Sexuality is an important part of human nature, so it's normal to ponder things like that from time to time, particularly if it's a story/universe in which one often immerses oneself. It has the potential to add a lot to a story as it explores a pretty crucial facet of humanity - and humanity (or what remains of it) in Astartes is an area that's often explored in the fiction, but for whatever reason skirts around issues of sexuality.

TLDR: It's pretty stupid to assume just because someone's asking about something involving sexuality in a fictional universe (which covers some pretty mature themes) that they're sexually frustrated or immature. If there can be pages of discussion on physics or theology relating to 40k I fail to see how this is any different.

[bfmusashi]

I think I missed the mature themes in 40k.

[Rissan4ever]

It amuses me that impaling people with chainsaw swords, blowing them up with lasers, rockets, and plasma energy, or huge monsters ripping them to shreds isn't a problem, but sex is considered a "mature theme."

[MaltonNecromancer]

Fourthly, and possibly more crucially, why the hell would this ever come up in a RPG scenario?

Surely this is about escapism? The grim darkness of the 41st Millenium, not the SIMs or Eastenders, or some sh*tty reality show. Things you can’t do in real life such as powerfist alien heads, not chat up birds. If you are asking because you want your scenario to be as true to the 40K universe as possible, the answer is that Marines do war, and die, or end up in a dreadnought.

For me a scenario where this just might pop up, is not an interesting delve into the background, nor good character development – rather, just tacky tittivation or smutty dice games. Chasing skirt should be done for real, committing genocide in aliens should be done in games.

People who need to do this in RPG games probably had little plastic Princess Leia in Slave Girl outfit doing reverse cowgirl on little plastic Chewbacca whilst little plastic Han was ‘watching’ when they were younger, and should probably get out more.


*facepalm*

Okay, just because you have never experienced meaningful roleplay of adult themes doesn't mean it is impossible to.

Consider: would you personally ever run a game about the Holocaust? Because there have been RPG books about it - http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Charnel_Houses_of_Europe:_The_Shoah

Here's the thing. "Roleplay is escapism" is a very simplistic view to take of a broad hobby. If you're thirteen or fourteen and just want to be a big manly man, fine, sure. We were all young once.

The average age of my roleplaying friends is 31. Most of us are married, have careers (rather than jobs) and really, while we can see the fun of your "escapism", well - sometimes we want something a little less male power fantasy and a bit more grown up.

Sex and sexuality doesn't have to mean smutty titillation. If that's your only experience of sex and sexuality in fiction, I put it that that says more about your choice of reading material (and consequently small reference pool) than it does about sexual themes.

Sex and sexuality frequently come up in my World of Darkness games. They have occasionally come up in the Dark Heresy game I ran. And counter to your "dice rolling" hypothesis, that's not how sex scenes play out. I mean, you have to remember: some vampires in the WoD hunt exclusively through sex and seduction; it can't really be avoided (though a lot of players may choose to gloss over it). Seriously, read the Daeva clanbook for an example of how sexuality and roleplay can be well-linked.

Just like real sex, you can't do it unless you feel comfortable, and with a group of friends you trust. You also have to know your players' personal boundaries. A number of my players over the years have been the victims of sexual assault or sexual abuse in real life. As a consequence, I tend to avoid RPG scenes of sexual violence in my games when playing with them. However, I have had some very moving, deeply meaningful, and very intense RPG sessions that were improved and elevated by the discussions of sexuality they contained. It's not appropriate to discuss them here, but take my word for it - if you're a grown-up and have a group of trusting players, it can make games excellent.

If you want to know more (and I imagine you don't - I imagine the whole though makes you a little uncomfortable, which is fair enough), I strongly recommend you read White-Wolf games' excellent Vampire: The Masquerade/ Vampire: The Requiem books.

TL;DR: if you're a grown-up, nothing's off the RPG menu. And just because it's on the menu, doesn't mean you have to select it. A Phal curry isn't for everyone, but for those who like it, it can be brilliant.

And they can't really explain why to people who don't like it.





I await Adramelech's "who cares?" with baited breath.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Or, Who cares?;)You do, clearly. Haven't you replied to this thread four or five times, all mentioning how you don't care about the topic? :P
-----
On the note of the Space Wolves, since all Fenrisans are genetically half-wolf, many of our assumptions about what is human/space marine might not apply to them. Maybe they get special wolfy sex drives? :P

Personally, I prefer the image of sterile, sexless Space Marines. They are the greatest defenders of humanity, but are so far divorced from it that they draw no enjoyment from the fleshy pleasures of life. In order to survive all the inhuman monstrosities in the galaxy, humanity had to invent its own inhuman beings.

[Kawauso]

It amuses me that impaling people with chainsaw swords, blowing them up with lasers, rockets, and plasma energy, or huge monsters ripping them to shreds isn't a problem, but sex is considered a "mature theme."

I would consider all of those things mature themes at least to some extent. North American (emphasis on the 'American') squeamishness regarding sex is absurd considering what a perfectly natural, healthy thing it is...as opposed to the relative acceptance of extreme violence (arguable also a natural thing, though far less healthy, and I think we could all agree less socially acceptable).

I don't find it amusing so much as disheartening, really. But at least I'm on the northern part of this continent, so it could be worse. ;)

[Kawauso]

Personally, I prefer the image of sterile, sexless Space Marines. They are the greatest defenders of humanity, but are so far divorced from it that they draw no enjoyment from the fleshy pleasures of life. In order to survive all the inhuman monstrosities in the galaxy, humanity had to invent its own inhuman beings.

I think they -could- draw pleasure from it - that's part of the lure for Astartes that fall to Chaos, isn't it? Slaanesh seems to have had no trouble tempting them (relatively speaking - and I know it's usually focused on non-sexual forms of hedonism in the fluff) in the past.

Consider this - how often do Astartes have -any- form of interaction with regular humans, let alone anything that could allow for romance to arise? They interact with Guard in theatres of war, but then all the interaction going on is directly related to warfare - Marines don't get nearly as much downtime as humans, and this would be especially true in a conflict. Marines also segregate themselves from other military forces, as their ability to wage war is entirely self-sufficient - they have their own ships, etc. So they really don't hang around anyone they're fighting with beyond planning and executing military actions.

Outside of direct conflict, Marines spend the vast majority of their time training, studying, meditating, praying, maintaining their arms and armour and traveling about the galaxy on their next deployment. They're warrior-monks, remember, and they're given very little personal time during their daily routines (idle hands are frowned upon in the Imperium generally, and this would hold especially true for Astartes). Perhaps there could be the opportunity for something to develop between a chapter serf and an Astartes, but even then the opportunity for regular interaction would be minimal - the serfs require more downtime than the Astartes, after all, and their regular duties require them to make sure the Astartes can continue to go about their daily business.

Couple with this the ascetic lifestyle of the Astartes meaning they most likely have taken vows of celebacy and I think it all boils down to minimal opportunity for romantic or sexual encounters over any desire or capability on behalf of the Astartes themselves.

Given how the vast majority of their time would be spent amongst their 'brothers' (and, as someone mentioned earlier, the fact that initiates are usually plucked from among pre/pubescent male populations), and I think that were Astartes to develop any sort of romantic/sexual inclinations it would likely be amongst their own...which would probably be clandestine and frowned upon (or it might not...who knows).

Put simply: Astartes don't have the time or opportunity to go on a pub crawl looking for a lay, and even if they did, they've probably taken some sort of vow against that sort of behaviour. I don't think that means they lack the capability or interest, however - just that it's buried deep inside. It is part of the allure Chaos has, after all. ;)

[DrLove42]

Crazy comment;

Say a marine does get his swag on with a human being

What are the chances of her even surviving the event?

[Necron2.0]

Crazy comment;

Say a marine does get his swag on with a human being

What are the chances of her even surviving the event?

Assuming his junk wasn't augmented (and why would it be) the answer to that question depends on who's on top.

========

I need to point out a logical error that hasn't been corrected yet. Emphasis in the following is mine to point out the error:


Surely this is about escapism? The grim darkness of the 41st Millenium, not the SIMs or Eastenders, or some sh*tty reality show. Things you can’t do in real life such as powerfist alien heads, not chat up birds.

You have met our peers, yes? Which of those two items (powerfisting aliens versus chatting up birds) do you think our peers can actually do in real life? I would argue that both have their place in a role playing game, as both are pure fantasy.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I think they -could- draw pleasure from it - that's part of the lure for Astartes that fall to Chaos, isn't it? Slaanesh seems to have had no trouble tempting them (relatively speaking - and I know it's usually focused on non-sexual forms of hedonism in the fluff) in the past.

Consider this - how often do Astartes have -any- form of interaction with regular humans, let alone anything that could allow for romance to arise?A coupla points on this - in the only detailed piece of fluff I know of depicting marines falling to Slaanesh, Fulgrim, when the marines truly fell they were also surrounded by humans who were being enthralled. The baseline humans fell back on their basic instincts and had an orgy - the astartes fell back on their "carnal" instincts and killed all of them. In plenty of fluff it seems that various spins on fighting (honor, bloodlust, pride etc) overtake most other desires in a Space Marine.

Also, Marines spend much of their time on their spacecraft, which are staffed by human serfs (some of which even wind up being close friends/servants to the astartes), so presumably they could have extended periods of human interaction, depending on the chapter.

[Kawauso]

Crazy comment;

Say a marine does get his swag on with a human being

What are the chances of her even surviving the event?

As Necron pointed out, that part of their anatomy isn't augmented, so if it is any larger than normal it can't by by too much.

That aside, there's already quite lot of variation as far as that's concerned within the unaugmented human species and I know of some...mechanically improbably situations that have nevertheless managed to work.



A coupla points on this - in the only detailed piece of fluff I know of depicting marines falling to Slaanesh, Fulgrim, when the marines truly fell they were also surrounded by humans who were being enthralled. The baseline humans fell back on their basic instincts and had an orgy - the astartes fell back on their "carnal" instincts and killed all of them. In plenty of fluff it seems that various spins on fighting (honor, bloodlust, pride etc) overtake most other desires in a Space Marine.

Also, Marines spend much of their time on their spacecraft, which are staffed by human serfs (some of which even wind up being close friends/servants to the astartes), so presumably they could have extended periods of human interaction, depending on the chapter.

You raise some good points.
There are, however, also some infrequent (and usually indirect) references to Astartes sexuality here and there - Ragnar and Lukas of the Space Wolves aside, there are those Salamanders who are permitted to return to Noctourne society and start families (though I think this is from an old bit of fluff that might not be canon any more?). And let's not forget the good ol' rumours pertaining to the basis of the fluff for the Dark Angels and the implied homosexuality therein.

I think ultimately it's the sort of thing that there's plenty of room for in the scope of the 40k universe, but for whatever reason GW decides to avoid any direct take on the issue in the background they create, and leave explicit smuttyness and romance up to the non-Astartes characters.

[Chuck777]

Yes they can have sex. Some Space Wolf Marines "got it on" with some Slaanesh Daemons IIRC.

I don't think it is a common practice however. For it to come up in the context of Deathwatch, baring Slaanesh, is downright antithetical to the themes of the Ordo.

[Denzark]

Except, you know, there's actually plenty of explicit and implicit boning in a number of the books - just none that I've come across involving Astartes in any explicit manner.

And it has nothing to do with people needing to 'get out more'.
Sexuality is an important part of human nature, so it's normal to ponder things like that from time to time, particularly if it's a story/universe in which one often immerses oneself. It has the potential to add a lot to a story as it explores a pretty crucial facet of humanity - and humanity (or what remains of it) in Astartes is an area that's often explored in the fiction, but for whatever reason skirts around issues of sexuality.

TLDR: It's pretty stupid to assume just because someone's asking about something involving sexuality in a fictional universe (which covers some pretty mature themes) that they're sexually frustrated or immature. If there can be pages of discussion on physics or theology relating to 40k I fail to see how this is any different.

Its pretty stupid to assume you can retort coherently to a post you found too long to read...

[Kawauso]

I was labeling myself as TLDR, to clarify. :P

[Thornblood]

I feel like posting my two-cents on this.

The "chemical castration", in combination from various sources (Index Astartes mostly I believe) essentially the marines are on ultra-steroids. Steroids mimic testosterone and create hyper-aggression, and accelerated growth, especiallyt in muscle mass. It also begins to create angrogenous side-effects in the user, effecting the vocal chords, body hair and genitals (hence the rep for shrinkage).

On top of this, in most sources (not all), aspirants and new recruits to the Astartes have to be pre-pubescent. The general impression is that all the sexual urges of puberty are channelled into anger, rage and violence, (partially through hypno-therapy as well as the chemical stuff). There are penty of sources saying that marines are bred for one purpose only.

Also, I think Games Workshop castrated the marines to keep things 12 rated. Violence you can get away with in large quantities. Add sex into the mix and the parents will be in uproar. On top of this, I havnt read a single book where a marine has sex. And plenty of guard have been frakking, fething and mounting one another left right and centre. Heck, when its from a marines perspective they dont even comment on how attractive the female characters are, whereas the mortal humans do. Sexual uges are just.... missing. Women, or even men dont register in that way. However, there do seem to be plenty of Achilles/Patroclus esque bro-mances between characters, but they seem to be pretty celibate.

Lasty, I think the proof of the pudding was already mentioned- in Fulgrim all Slaanesh breaks loose and the humans get to the down and dirty. Heck, one of the artists starts painting and sculpting with fecal matter and decayed bodies (Damien Hirst and Saatchi would be proud). However the marines just to violence. And aggression. No sexy time.

As a final disclaimer Games Workshop seems to have left the deep voices, and the body hair available to marines. The reason? Because they make them look and sound awesome. Instead of like girls. No one wants a marine with the voice of a girl.

So I would say, for your rpg, the sex is out. If there roleplaying right, they wouldnt even notice wether the girls attractive.

[Foxhound2delta]

I want to hear more about Space Wolves tearing it up with Daemons. To me that just doesn't sound right.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Yes they can have sex. Some Space Wolf Marines "got it on" with some Slaanesh Daemons IIRC.He was referred to as "making a casual pass" at the daemon (he didn't know she was a daemon at the time, for folks who haven't read the SW 'dex); just flirting. I can totally picture a sterile/libidoless, drunken viking hitting on someone for the sake of it :P ("Oye, lads, look at the knockers on that one! I'd sure like to show her my kraken.")


You raise some good points.
There are, however, also some infrequent (and usually indirect) references to Astartes sexuality here and there - Ragnar and Lukas of the Space Wolves aside, there are those Salamanders who are permitted to return to Noctourne society and start families (though I think this is from an old bit of fluff that might not be canon any more?). And let's not forget the good ol' rumours pertaining to the basis of the fluff for the Dark Angels and the implied homosexuality therein.Aye, consistency isn't the fluff's strong point. Personally, I feel that the references to sexuality are vague/old enough to not necessarily imply much, but that's just my stance (say, I'd interpret the Space Wolf stuff as bravado carried over from pre-Astartes days, and the Salamanders thing as being more of a guardian/patriarch of a "family" of locals - protecting a clan of smiths from gangers, for instance, while offering them guidance and training). Still, there's definitely room for others to have their interpretation of the Astartes have a woman in every port.

[Denzark]

I was labeling myself as TLDR, to clarify. :P

Oh! OK I thought meant Too long, didn't read not don't read. Clearly I am not down with the kids.

Needless to say, I read your comment.

Regarding Theology etc of course, but in that case why is the OP asking about this subject instead of high-sugar-content breakfast serials of the 41st Millenium, or after Sunday Breakfast poo - do marines read the codex astartes or merely the memoirs of Leman Russ...

Surely all of these are equally valid subjects if the sexual content isn't cheap thrill option.

[Kawauso]

Sure, and why not? OP Wasn't asking about that, though.

But I think it's pretty clear codex-abiding chapters read the Codex Astartes. ;P
Although...
There are a lot of people of (insert faith here) who haven't ever read (insert relevant holy text here), so who knows. xD