Ave Imperator: Systematic Theology in 40k

[The Last Lamenter]

I made a few edits and wanted to make a main thread to see if I could get some input as I try to make sense of all this
With the current amount of background information made available by the introduction of the Horus Heresy series, and the often contradictory views of its many authors, there is a lack of unified theology concerning the Imperium. While this clearly reflects the divisive denominations of the Imperial Cult by the 41st Millennium, it does little for those of us who have struggled with one question more than any other in the grim darkness of the far future: “Is the Emperor a god? Or has man made him a god?” With that being said, there are three possibilities to the nature of the Emperor’s divinity.
The first idea is that, during The Great Crusade, the emperor denies the notion of his divinity under false pretenses in order to shield his people from the warp, which feeds on such non-secular sentiments. For example, if his divinity is unveiled, then how long before supernatural thinking leads to disastrous contact with the ruinous powers. Secular Humanism directly weakens the influence of the Warp, but is still a lie, though told for a righteous purpose.
The second possibility, the one that I embrace, is that the emperor is unaware of his own divinity as the physical manifestation of the Anathema Force in the Warp (God). He has yet to fully grasp his own divinity as the savior of not only the Imperium but mankind’s souls. The emperor represents not only the Messiah Archetype, or the sacrificial lamb, but specifically Author Pendragon, who will eventually return from Avalon, that place of half-death, to save his people in their time of greatest need. This time is yet to come, as humanity has so far and with tremendous struggle defeated every threat, showing its dogged determination to survive amidst unspeakable horrors. The Arthurian subtext is only fitting since so many of the Black Library’s authors are British and, try as they might, cannot steer clear of Camelot’s archetypes, which have always been the most elegant in their reflections of the human condition. What is most intriguing is that if the emperor does not recognize his divinity then he does not assume his resurrection, in keeping with the Christ figure archetype, and may thereby delay both his ascension and humanity’s salvation by prolonging his death with interment upon the Golden Throne. This state of half-death produces a god operating under limited powers. If the rules of the archetype apply within the 40k universe, then Lorgar was right when he wrote the Lectio Divinatus. I only wonder if secretly, the emperor mourned his chastisement of his son, knowing that it would lead to his embrace of chaos, but knowing that it was what was best for humanity at the time. The reason the galaxy is in such a horrible mess by the 41st millennium is due to the chief irony that provides the basis for the tragedy of the Imperium of Man and of contemporary science fiction. We have crippled the power of a god with fallen technologies. We do not have the faith needed (Perhaps not even the emperor himself) to believe that the emperor is stronger than death and so we must preserve him with the wonders of his technology and that of the Mechanicum.
There is also an allegorical school of thought which greatly simplifies the Emperor’s story-arch as a reference to Julius Caesar. This interpretation would explain the organization of the Astartes into legions, the imperial eagle icon, and , in particular, “Julius Caesar was a normal man, who conquered the known world, became a dictator, and was proclaimed a god after his death.” The miraculous manifestations, the rise of saints, and other divine incidents are, therefore, evidence of mankind being more latently psychic than previously thought and the ability of faith in emperor to banish warp spawn or protect against chaos exists merely because people believe it can, generating a rudimentary psychic field similar to the ork’s “Waaagh!” This view maintains the secular nature of 40k, but greatly inflates the depth of the tragedy to the point of grotesque satire, for all the faith in the 41st millennium loses any notion of meaning. I believe the writers do not clarify the ambiguous nature of the Emperor’s divinity so as to not alienate the secular humanist SF fans who would be loath to live in any universe where technology was not the only god. Once the mechanisms in the Golden Throne fail, the Black Library will be forced into an awkward position when the Astronomicon is snuffed out, for then humanity will either be saved by the emperor’s divinity, or the story will end and Old Night will reclaim the Imperium of Man.

[Thornblood]

I have just begun to read that massive tome entitled 'Systematic Theology' by Grudem, so I have a little understanding of the 'all sources' method.

I think an important part of the topic is the recent developments. Whilst originally both Sigmar and The Emperor were created as epic-human heroes with Jesus-esque tendancies they were smithed into a fictional world that relies on constant martial conflict; after all Warhammer in both flavours relies on military conflict and the worlds therfore have to be engineered to create an unlimited supply of it.

And so, with traditional british cynicism the grimdark future was born with the Emperor- a militamt Jesus figure naturally linking to a church (which is both horrifically corrupt in places and reformed and pure in a few others, depending on the writer). Roman Catholicism lends itself very nicely and the 'high church' feel sat in and rached back into the Roman and Byzantine Empires. As a military figure addeing some Julius Caesar into the mix seemed pretty good especially seeing the Marines are organised like the roman legions after the Marian refors (also, anyone else spot Marius Gage as a nod to Marius in Know No Fear?).

Skip back into the fluff rather than the reason behind it and I think you have it right- a tension of "is this a fictional Jesus?" Was he supposed to die and come back to life and save us all? Is the Golden Throne like putting Jesus on life-support whist he is on the cross- stopping him from dying? Alterntively is this the second coming (Mechanicum quotes revelation directly in description), in which case when the Emperor dies, is it the end of the universe? On top of this is the Emperor really a God? Really a Jesus-esque God? Or is this all irrelevent? How does this all fit in a pluralistic universe and the Emperor is humanities only God? This, is the masterful tension that was created, the kind of guessing and ambiguity (only enhanced and confused by the Emperors own Aetheistic views) that made the re-imagined BSG and Lost so amazing.

Now in comes captain ret-con. Apparently Shamans got together and created the Emperor- as a generic good force that manifested itself over and over- as King Arthur, as Jesus, as great good-guy heroes through the ages. And now this force is the Emperor. Which in my eyes is essentially like writing Lord of the Rings/ The Hobbit and ret-conning it saying that Bilbo, Frodo, Thain, Aragorn and Gandalf are not really real, but all different prt of some generic sentinet force for good create by wizards so long ago that no one could be bothered to make up a vaguely entertaining piece of fiction as a creation story.

Actually, 'Wizards did it' is the well known, cant-be-bothered attitude of poor fantasy writers who cant come up with a good reason why something is now like it is. So im a bit annoyed at this shaman power Emperor.

Anyway, this started off quite well, and well meaning and ended up as some trollish rant. My apologies.

[DarkLink]

I'm a fan of the ascended into godhood idea, and of that trope in general.

Before the Heresy, the God Emperor was an extremely powerful man. After the Heresy, the combination of technology and sheer psychic power was able to keep his consciousness alive long enough for a religion to build around him. Since the Warp is intricately tied both to mass belief and psychic powers, the belief in the Emperor the Imperium holds very well could turn the Emperor into a God by preventing him from dying once his body fails.



Actually, 'Wizards did it' is the well known, cant-be-bothered attitude of poor fantasy writers who cant come up with a good reason why something is now like it is.


Since literally all fantasy and virtually all science fiction ultimately breaks down into "a wizard did it", this is an odd attitude to take.

It's not about the author's justification for the fantastical elements in a story. It's all about the reader's willing suspension of disbelief. If the author can create a strong suspension of disbelief, then it doesn't matter if a wizard did it. If the author fails in this, then you have a problem.

[Wildeybeast]

I'm a fan of the ascended into godhood idea, and of that trope in general.

Before the Heresy, the God Emperor was an extremely powerful man. After the Heresy, the combination of technology and sheer psychic power was able to keep his consciousness alive long enough for a religion to build around him. Since the Warp is intricately tied both to mass belief and psychic powers, the belief in the Emperor the Imperium holds very well could turn the Emperor into a God by preventing him from dying once his body fails.

The only problem with this is the HH books make clear that the Emperor has been around for millenia and he is being openly worshipped and is the cause of miracles/saints before his death. Whatever he is, he is already it before his confrontation with Horus and indeed before his ascension to the role of Emperor of mankind.

[The Last Lamenter]

That is a really good point. The issue of the Saint Keeler incident in the opening trilogy and on through Eisenstein is problematic for all those who want to completely secularize the emperor. She banished warp spawn through faith in the Emperor BEFORE his "death"

[inquisitorsog]

If the Emperor is a Jesus figure, I would have to say there's a radical departure in his entombment on the throne. There's not even the death on the Cross, just an ongoing crucifixion.

The entombment on the Throne really does carry significant connotations of prolonging the agony of the Cross. Simply put, the Emperor never got to say his "It is finished", and so can't move from the necessary but limited work to his greater work (which would require his ascension/transformation, presumably via the webway project). Putting him on the Throne in semi-stasis is the work of the High Lords(i.e. Sadducees and Pharisees) because they wanted an 'earthly' king, not his own plan for sustaining his life when mortally wounded.

This is where the Star Child and similar 'heresies' pick up. The view of the Golden Throne as a torture device that is preempting the Emperor's own plan is an easy one to get to if you start casting too much Jesus into the Emperor.

[mjasghar]

having ready access to pretty much all the stuff ever published for warhammer and 40 k - helpe by recently acquiring a complete white dwarf set 90 odd to 330 odd and have all new ones after that already - i'll chip in my view.
The keeler saint is not that difficult. First: it is clearly hinted she is a latent psyker. Remember she can hear Samus - which ordinary humans can only hear on the vox. The sisters id her as a psyker, which is different to the m41 sisters acts of faith. I think. FFG state faitht alents are not available to untouchables. However those are probably more externally sourced.
Anyway.
Remember Slaanesh? It was born by the Fall yet is said to have always existed. This is explained by the warp being sort of outside time. So, it is likley there were echoes of the perevert encouraging the Eldar on.
Now apply to the Emp. Echoes of a possible future Emp god exist back into time and these create miracles or empower saint keeler.
After the Thronement, such miracles cokme closer to the time of a fully realised Emp. So they are more powerful - the way seb thor quieted warp storms etc.
Presuambly dying would release the emp to be a full god. This would be him going into the warp to fight the final battle against the chaos gods. Possibly he would die killing them and the nids et all leaving humanity safe and free. Or triumph and humanity rules all. with a reborn asuryan rising out of the ashes of yenogah.
in the fluff for the 13th crusade campaign, there was a prophecy - abaddon triumphs and uses the souls to become this massive daemongod, goes to terra and humanity is so desperate it REALLY believes in the EMP. He becomes a masive angel and they fight, the Emp wins but terra is totally wasted.

[DarkLink]

The only problem with this is the HH books make clear that the Emperor has been around for millenia and he is being openly worshipped and is the cause of miracles/saints before his death. Whatever he is, he is already it before his confrontation with Horus and indeed before his ascension to the role of Emperor of mankind.

Details. So he starts out imbued with extra power from the shamans, gets a little more here and there from the cults, and so on until the Heresy where it become Humanity's religion. It's still a psychic storm centered around the Emperor, slowly turning him into a God.


Besides, I haven't actually read very many 40k books. Never been particularly impressed. If I want to see a character's metaphysical and psychic evolution into a pseudo-god, I'll reread The Acts of Caine, American Gods, or the Mistborn series. Extremely good books.

[MaltonNecromancer]

The Emperor is anything but a Jesus figure. Being deifed does not make one Jesus; it simply makes one deified. The Jesus archtype requires a more specific set of traits. The closest thing to the Jesus archetype in 40K is probably Roboute Guilliman, and even that's stretching it a bit.

The Emperor seems to have been an atheist scientist - remember, the Dark Age of Technology is only a dark age from the Imperium's point of view. From the point of view of those living in it, it was a golden age (think "Star Trek").

The reason the Emperor has a religion built up around him is because, well, that's what humans do. I think the best expression of it is from Warren Ellis' "Supergod".

In the scene below, a scientist is questioning a being made of three dead astronauts held together by superintelligent fungus, which he and the scientists at the base he works at have begun to worship as a god.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_woU5s2fwbZo/S64owXBlYrI/AAAAAAABVU0/pQFOUyAwm3g/s1600/SG_003_007.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_woU5s2fwbZo/S64ozVQzw0I/AAAAAAABVU8/zCDhOYF0oVA/s1600/SG_003_008.jpg

The Imperial Creed and faiths exists because the Imperium needs them to; they are a tool of social control, and a unifying agent across the vast area that the Imperium occupies.

Given that the Warp is not hell, and that daemons are not demons (to all intents and purposes they are, but ultimately, they remain psychic entities from an alternate layer of reality behind the one we know), it is entirely possible to draw both a religious and an atheistic viewpoint of the 40K universe. Everything could be explained scientifically... it's just that humanity is no longer advanced enough to do so.

[Wildeybeast]

The Imperial Creed and faiths exists because the Imperium needs them to; they are a tool of social control, and a unifying agent across the vast area that the Imperium occupies.

Given that the Warp is not hell, and that daemons are not demons (to all intents and purposes they are, but ultimately, they remain psychic entities from an alternate layer of reality behind the one we know), it is entirely possible to draw both a religious and an atheistic viewpoint of the 40K universe. Everything could be explained scientifically... it's just that humanity is no longer advanced enough to do so.

They may be used as tools of control in the 41st millenium, but that isn't where they come from nor why they exist. Remember, faith in the Emperor starts in direct defiance to his edict that there are no gods and religion is stupid. People ignore it and worship him anyway. So why? Because, as Lorgar puts it in First Heretic, the Emperor is a god in all but name, whether he admits it or not. He is a psyker and scientist beyond compare, has conquered Earth and then the galaxy, entire systems burn at his word and all humanity kneels before him. The Primarchs are awesome beings, the mere sight of which leads people to fall to their knees and weep and they are pale reflections of the Emperor. It falls down to how you define what a god is in that universe (the Eldar worshipped the Old Ones, were they gods?).

The Tau prove your point about humanities resort to religion to explain things they don't understand, as they are one of the few races capable of understanding and improving technology and shaping the galaxy to their own ends and they have no gods. Because they understand the universe (or at least are working to figuring out things they don't) it holds no mystery for them and so they don't need to resort to higher powers. However, like all races in the galaxy, the have faith, but it is in each other rather than a god.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Because, as Lorgar puts it in First Heretic, the Emperor is a god in all but name, whether he admits it or not.

Consider the source. Lorgar was a primitive at the end of the day; he saw the Emperor in that context, because that's the context he had for these things.


The Primarchs are awesome beings, the mere sight of which leads people to fall to their knees and weep and they are pale reflections of the Emperor. It falls down to how you define what a god is in that universe (the Eldar worshipped the Old Ones, were they gods?).

Well, that's kind of the point. By defining something as a "god", it says more about the individual's desire to worship than it does about the sufficiently powerful being. I've been watching a lot of SG-1 recently and this comes up a lot; I'm very much with Teal'c, as he consistently calls out the Goa'uld - they're not gods - they're just very powerful individuals. He refuses to worship them, and so doesn't call them gods, normally just Goa'uld.

I mean, you've also got to consider that the Material Plane trumps the Immaterium every time: no emotions/psychic thought? No warp or Chaos Powers. Simple as. For all their villainous crowing about how they are the most powerful thing, the Warp exists because of people, not the other way round.

[Wildeybeast]

I disagree on Lorgar, he continued to worship the Emepror even when he knew what he was. In fact, even when the Emperor castigates him, he doesn't deny the Emperor's divinity, he merely adopts the view that the Emperor isn't a god worthy of worship.

Something that has just occured to me about the Imperial faith is that the Space Marines don't worship him. Is this because they don't think he is a god, or is that, as they share a genetic link to the Emperor's sons, they don't need to worship him, being in someway divine/closer to the Emperor/above the rest of humanity?

[Kawauso]

However, like all races in the galaxy, the have faith, but it is in each other rather than a god.

I don't know that that really constitutes faith in the strictest sense of the word, which is a belief in something in the absence of evidence for it.

Faith in someone you trust is usually shaped by past experiences and expectations with that person or persons.

As for the Emperor (or Chaos Gods, or Old Ones, or anything really) being a god, it really does depend on how you define the word. If the definition is just 'a super-powerful being', then they are all gods. If you're looking for something a little more, say 'creator of the universe existing outside of time/space', then I don't think any of them are gods.

The Chaos Gods are the closest things in 40k to legitimate 'gods', but even then, they are technically by-products of the physical universe, and they can be killed (remember what happened to the Eldar pantheon).

The Old Ones and C'tan might be close seconds - and the Old Ones even created entire races - but in the end they too were defeated, and I think it's unlikely that the Old Ones did anything quite as grand as creating the galaxy or universe or anything like that.

Remember, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. :)

[Kawauso]

Something that has just occured to me about the Imperial faith is that the Space Marines don't worship him. Is this because they don't think he is a god, or is that, as they share a genetic link to the Emperor's sons, they don't need to worship him, being in someway divine/closer to the Emperor/above the rest of humanity?

This is something I've always found a little odd - it's stated in the background that the Marines don't revere the Emperor as divine like those who follow the Imperial Creed...but it seems to me more often than not that they do just the opposite.

They certainly hold him in a god-like esteem and commit acts of religious-like zealotry in his name...just look at the Black Templars. And the Space Wolves revere him as the All-Father.

And they (all Chapters, to my knowledge) pray to the Emperor all the time.

I think that despite any differences between Astates and human worship of the Emperor, at the end of the day he's still a god to all of them.

[Thornblood]

Can I just check I got the meaaning of the thread right?

Systematic Theology: taking all relevent sources in relation to the study of God simulatenously, weighing them and then drawing conclusions, in an attempt to guard against 'one angle' views of God which ignore other contradictory sources. (Of course this is an abbreviation of a 51 page definition).

So, this is my big thought, and alot of speculation; The Emperor exists outside of time as a God. Like Jesus he entered time and mortality to save mankind- maybe able to do so because of the shamans rituals, but he still exists outside of time as well (because its outside of time he dosnt stop existing whilst he is in time). So to take on full mortality, he has no knowledge of his former self as a god-like being outside of time, and preaches Aetheism. So in terms of the 'saint keeler' thing, she can draw on the power of the emperor because he still exists outide of time.

More than this, the Emperor outside of time is pure 'good' psychic essence. We know that there is a similrity and difference between psychic powers and sorcery. So heres a further theory.

Faith and sorcery are opposite sides of the same coin, with the side of the coin being psychic powers (or no powers, but lets assume thats an undeveloped latent psychic ability). 'Faith'- for lack of a better word to label a 'pure' power of the Emperor (or rather the Emperor is a manifestation of the power), and sorcery manifesting as the warp and the chaos Gods. Humanity is a little in each world, and thus rejected by both an unable to handle to power of either and so treads a fine line of psychic powers.

Am I waay off the mark?

[The Last Lamenter]

Thornblood,

I love reading your replies.

I am not insisting that the emperor is Jesus. God-forbid that I would even remotely or implicitly suggest that the universe is anything other than an atheistic, naturalistic, artless environment. I know how the hard sci-fi fans get pretty aggressive at the slightest mention of agnosticism much less outright theism. No. What I'm suggesting is that the emperor is a full-fledged representation of the monomythic cycle of which Jesus and Arthur happen to be representatives. They share similar characteristics and this would help explain their deification. As far as gods are concerned, to be a God does not guarantee omniscience. I am speaking of gods only within the universe of 40k. The gods are gods in every sense of the word within a polytheistic environment, much like the greeks. The gods are limited but gods nonetheless. I am convinced that the mere suggestion of a grim dark theistic world so offended the sensibilities of sci-fi and 40k fans that GW and the BL had to back track and do some serious relativistic stretching in order to explain scientifically how gods can be explained away and therefore diminished before sneering outsiders, such as us, who cannot think within the context of a work. For example "Well the gods always existed, but time flows differently in the warp, so that's how we explain their 'always being.' I get relativity, but that does little to diminish the influence of chaos. I just see them as limited gods. If the emperor returns though, we're going to have one helluva time trying to explain that one away through science. Unless we resort to rampant deus ex machine where Albert Einstein, Heisenberg, and Hawking swoop in from another universe and explain it all until anything remotely uncomfortable goes away.

[Kawauso]

If someone can't handle depictions of gods or theism in a work of fiction, that's their problem, not the author's.

And fantasy/sci-fi has a long history of having demonstrably true gods represented in it, so I'm not sure where you think there would be some hardcore anti-theist nerd rage over that sort of thing showing.

'God in every sense of the word', though, does depend on how one defines a 'god'. That's not anti-theist rhetoric, it's true. What that word means varies depending on whom you ask, and as a result some people would consider the Chaos Gods 'gods', for example, while others would not.

The science in 40k is pretty fast and loose - there's not really any scientific basis for the Warp or Chaos. For all intents and purposes, it's magic; psychic powers have no more basis in science than witchcraft. Interestingly enough, in 40k people don't really seem to make any distinction there.

I don't think the authors involved try to skirt around the god/s issue/s so much as...
Well, any scientific understanding - even when you're playing fast and loose sci-fi science - makes any sort of god claim flimsier and more difficult to verify. It's not the fault of the fiction, it's just how science works. That's my take on it, at least. The more you understand of science and how the universe (even a fictional one) works, the harder it is to take any sort of god claim at face value.

In summation: gods, supernatural beings and magic fit fine within 40k. It's not a hard science sci-fi universe, and doesn't try to be. I don't think that anything in the 40k universe is a god in the sense of any sort of 'supreme mover'-type entity, however. The Chaos Gods are the closest things to legitimate gods, being that they feed on reverence and worship from their followers and have a lot of other godly attributes. Ultimately they depend on the physical realm for their existence, however, so I don't know that they'd really, truly count by my definition - and that's one of the things I find really interesting about 40k's background. The Old Ones might have been closer to gods, but we don't know enough about them and can only speculate on a lot of details.

[The Last Lamenter]

Hey man that is a brilliant reply, that may wrap it up. I'll need to think on that one for a bit.