deathwatch (foot) v genestealer cult balanced lists for native games

[burning crome]

Ok so the idea here is that to entice my house mates into playing (or back into playing in one case) I thought I get two army suited to fight each other ready, and run a sort of native campaign. And what could be more iconic than the noble deathwatch verse the evil hordes of a genestealer cult. It hoped that these two list are reasonable good enough to face other forces since I’d like to be able to play them elsewhere, whist giving an interesting game(s) against each other.

Genestealer cult 1505pts
HQ
Malantrope of 2 total 220pts
Tervigon (hq slot)160pts withcatalyst and cluster spines total 175pts
HQ total 395pts
Troop
Tervigon(troop slot) with catalyst and cluster spines total 175pts
Tervigon(troop slot) with catalyst and cluster spines total 175pts
Termagant brood of 13 Total 65pts
Termagant brood of 13 Total 65pts
Genestealer brood of 10 with toxin sacs total 170pts
Genestealer brood of 10 with toxin sacs total 170pts
Troop total 890pts
Elites
Hive guard brood of 2 Total 100pts
Hive guard brood of 2 Total 100pts
Hive guard brood of 2 Total 100pts
Elite total 300pts
Running total 1505pts

Deathwatch kill team using GK 1500pts

HQ
Librarian 150pts with the following powers Might of titan/ sanctuary /summoning/ shrouding / Quicksilver Total 175pts
HQ Total 175pts
Elites
Purifier squad with five extra members with four psycannon with a daemon hammer and two force halberds total 289pts
Purifier squad with five extra members with four psycannon with a daemon hammer and two force halberds total 289pts
Purifier squad with five extra members with four Incinerators free with two daemon hammer 10pts total 250pts
Elites Total 828pts
Troops
Grey Knight strike squad 100pts with five extra memberwith two psycannon/ psybolt ammunition and daemon hammer total 250pts
Grey Knight strike squad 100pts with five extra member with two psycannon/ psybolt ammunition and daemon hammer total 250pts
Troop Total 500pts
Running total 1503pts

SO what do you think will they work together and in a normal setting or is one massively over power compared to the other?
All comments welcome

[burning crome]

Hi might of got this is the wrong place since i've just noticed the army list subsection if there a mod around could you move it for me thanks.

[burning crome]

well this thread is sinking without a trace, not really help by me when i keep logging on a leaving comments on other peoples. So can i conclude that there perfect balanced list then:-) I'd be impressed if it was the case with the bugs since it pretty much the first list i've put together out side of just messing around. That being said it pretty standard with a heavy horde theme. I was very temped to go with some thing other than the hive guards but there pretty cheap for the fire power they put out.

[L192837465]

So, just FYI: Deathwatch =/= GK. At all. The concept is terrible, and the tyranids will get footstomped by so many psycannons.

Instead, how about you actually run a deathwatch army?

[inquisitorsog]

I'll be honest, it's not an "iconic" scenario. Who ever heard of 50 death watch on the field at the same time? Iconic DW is a single elite kill team, not 1/2 a company.

Further, there's too many big nids and not enough gaunts. Even though you have extra nids spawning, it's not the iconic horde IMO.

An alternate FOC that lets the marines have more elites and the nids more troops may be more to order. Or, have only one marine squad as allies to an IG army.

[burning crome]

Hi first of thank for comments even if there not exactly glowing. So the basic thought is that it a bit one sided with the nids lacking even against a foot list.I did stuggle with the dex is dose seem once you got the basic in your not really left with much left over for any thing really exciting. BTW i already own the Malantrope hence there inclusion plus i think they look pretty good i've not tested them yet mind.

Gk are as about as close as you can get. Moblie heavy bolters/ phy powers/ better ammo access to power weapons and deepstrike options, all in all there nearly a perfect fit!?
Nothing else even come close apart from maybe BA hourer guard squad. Streanguard vets, ok they have the special ammo but generally don't really do alot else, it the opposite with vanguard vets. Both of these units are way off the mark in terms of point cost which is reasonable in their parent list where your happy to pay for them to go a certain job (And then die horrible in the case of the vanguard), but if there going to be the base of an army.

Inquisitorsog- I'd love to have a codex allies again and get some assassin and marine flare back into normal imperial army. Part of the reasoning behind the just a large number is i want it to be a foot list. And that means body's since i like this to be able to be played in other settings hence the slight competitive build nature (or at least what i think will work). It proble did help that i was joining in on the how many marines can you cram in to a 1500pt list whist come in with these. I suppose the other question is what the latest fluff on the DW they use to be referred to as only small elite units but since the've be sort of forgotten about in the main. I have no idea what black library has developed for them recently (sorry but BL are nothing but pure pulp fiction, whist i love the back ground of 40K when ever some one try's to detail it it just seem a little hole to me). I have image there scale had increased along with every thing else. I mean if the deamon hunters can field 50+ at an engagement then surely the order xenos could do some thing similar or is that wishful thinking.

[PalinMoonstride]

I wouldn't call 20 genestealers a cult. But, then again, I wouldn't use GK for deathwatch either.

Kantor + sterngaurd is def the most accepted way to go about a DW list.

[burning crome]

I wouldn't call 20 genestealers a cult. But, then again, I wouldn't use GK for deathwatch either.

Kantor + sterngaurd is def the most accepted way to go about a DW list.

The Termagant will be done as cultist may be should have explained that early. Got loads of old DE that i picked up ages ago, green stuff some robes and give them nid arms and that should look pretty good. Same with the hive guards they'll be done as large genestealers the Tervigon will be based on the FW brood nest in a aliens type look . I would have liked to get more pure genestealers in there (i still not sure if it would be better to drop the sacs if favor of more body) or even drop the troop ones for the elite type. Some of the choice are in there to the ability to be able to play this else where again but if anyone got an tips on how it could be done better then i'm all ears.

I once tried out a sterngaurd list when the codex was new and i wasn't that impressed. They just didn't do enough damage and you only really use two of the ammo types most of the time plus they rely on transports and frankly i really can be arsed painting up another 5-8 tanks. (pods just get them killed faster)

[L192837465]

Gk are as about as close as you can get. Moblie heavy bolters/ phy powers/ better ammo access to power weapons and deepstrike options, all in all there nearly a perfect fit!?
Nothing else even come close apart from maybe BA hourer guard squad. Streanguard vets, ok they have the special ammo but generally don't really do alot else, it the opposite with vanguard vets. Both of these units are way off the mark in terms of point cost which is reasonable in their parent list where your happy to pay for them to go a certain job (And then die horrible in the case of the vanguard), but if there going to be the base of an army.



Except that Deathwatch was only ever MAYBE 20 marines at once. Most of the time it was 1-5. GK =/= Deathwatch. At all. In fact, very few deathwatch marines were psychers in the first place.


I mean, if you're playing the nids, then this will probably make your friends interested in playing. In a 1000 point list, you managed to fit 16 of the most retardedly powerful ranged weapon in the game, your entire army has force weapons, and your psychic abilities can't be nullified, whereas you're shutting down the nids already crap choices.

If you want to "balance it out" and make it ACTUALLY fluffy, run that GK army against 3000 points of nids, filling in the other 1500 points with mostly gaunts and 20 more genestealers.

That would be actually fluffy and fun, for both players. As it stands, you're bringing the most powerful dex in the game for "fluff" reasons, then completely ignoring the actual fluff of Deathwatch.

[L192837465]

Also, you proved my point in the marine horde thread.


The other option (personal fav) is the GK strike squad horde. For 230pt or 250pts to make all shooting st5 or higher you get super marines that or both mobile thanks to assault weapons and deep strike ability that are more than capable of dealing with most things whist being annoying as hell to deal with. At 1500pts you can get 5 full squads (with phy bolt+2 phycannons and a hammer) with a grandmaster or librarian to choice. (ok that only 51bodys but it still pretty cool and you don't really see it that much surprisingly )

...LIST...

So basically, you're trying to throw a weak codex against a tournament ready army that you yourself have described as "...more than capable of dealing with most things whilst being annoying as hell to deal with."?

Give them Space Wolves or a comparable army or don't expect your friends to play much.

[burning crome]

Also, you proved my point in the marine horde thread.



So basically, you're trying to throw a weak codex against a tournament ready army that you yourself have described as "...more than capable of dealing with most things whilst being annoying as hell to deal with."?

Give them Space Wolves or a comparable army or don't expect your friends to play much.

well i hadn't realized i'd come up with the next great tournament list!! Yes it's an interesting and hopefully good list, i have high hope that it will work against the perceived wisdom that foot marines are a no go.
That being said i did think i'd done to badly with the nids list either. It got some pretty nasty stuff in there with FNP and 4+ cover being handed out.
So what would i have to do to it to get it up the scratch then. Would adding in 250 or 500pts on to make it more of a equal footing.Unless your just in the mind set that they should be played at all??
Real don't want to swap them out for another marine army whist i love painting them i've already for three + this one so it time for a xeno force (i do have a small DE force but really can get the hang of them so it not really some thing i plan to pay to expand unlike these two where i've pretty much got all the models i need with a bit of work)

[The AKH]

i have high hope that it will work against the perceived wisdom that foot marines are a no go.


Well, "foot marines" and "foot Grey Knights" are two slightly different kettles of fish...

[Paul]

Well, "foot marines" and "foot Grey Knights" are two slightly different kettles of fish...

Indeed. Grey Knights are one of the best foot armies out there. Because they aren't Marines at all basically.

[burning crome]

Every keeps saying that GK on foot work really well but i just have'nt seen them played as such apart from a few mess around games. Dose any one have any links to battle reports using them??

[L192837465]

well i hadn't realized i'd come up with the next great tournament list!! Yes it's an interesting and hopefully good list, i have high hope that it will work against the perceived wisdom that foot marines are a no go.
That being said i did think i'd done to badly with the nids list either. It got some pretty nasty stuff in there with FNP and 4+ cover being handed out.
So what would i have to do to it to get it up the scratch then. Would adding in 250 or 500pts on to make it more of a equal footing.Unless your just in the mind set that they should be played at all??
Real don't want to swap them out for another marine army whist i love painting them i've already for three + this one so it time for a xeno force (i do have a small DE force but really can get the hang of them so it not really some thing i plan to pay to expand unlike these two where i've pretty much got all the models i need with a bit of work)

It's not that the army you made is good, it's that it's utilizing all of the absolute best things about GKs while attempting "fluff" and having your opponent use a sub-par codex with some horrible choices.

Let them use a better book and they'll have more fun. Would you like to play tyranids against that GK list? Doubt it.

[burning crome]

well i would end up playing the tyranids more often than not since it easier to write plot lines for and get people involved. I'd have like to have the armys so you could swap with no power leave issuses. What would i be playing the grey knights????

[L192837465]

well i would end up playing the tyranids more often than not since it easier to write plot lines for and get people involved. I'd have like to have the armys so you could swap with no power leave issuses. What would i be playing the grey knights????

I'm assuming you meant "What list or army could I run instead of Grey Knights?" so I'll answer in regards to that. Make them either vanilla marines or give the nids an extra thousand points.

If you're going for real "fluffy hilarity", the mass hoard of nids would fit it well against the small detachment of marines. Make a campaign. But I'm not kidding, if I was told to play nids against that army, and didn't know what I was doing, I'd never play the game again. Make them Blood angels and play them like that.

[Paul]

Make a Kantor Sternguard list.

That is Deathwatch.

[thelion]

on of the issues with why your lists are so unballced is the nids realy do better at bigger points (as with more hord armys the entier multaply insted of the add of l33t armys) secondly if you wish to use nids i would sugest going with the ultramaines(man it hurts just saying it) insted of the death watch, it is still an iconic battle of skilled soldiers vs the murderess hord that you were looking for still fairly easy to wright a story line for and it just makes more sence to see 50 of them as opposed to 50 of the deathwatch

[burning crome]

Hi I haven't really given it to much time to this since the last post. I current scrabbling around to see if I can get enough together for sister of battle army which would suit a little better in terms of balance. I still may do the death watch army since I think it will rock! Well I think so anyhow. Anyway that list might get extended to 1850 (another strike squad+ and inq with usual gear) since I found that a new game café has opened up here in Liverpool (well I’ve only just found it) and they seem to go in for quite hard lists so it should fit in and carry over to 6th reasonable well. As to it being unfluff there seems to be nothing in the background to prohibit mass deployment. It’s just unusual which lets face most armies fielded would come under this bracket. There quite a few counts as armies out there that stress the point better than I can do here.
Back to the point the nids need sprucing up. Maybe taking it up to 1750 or 1850pts and playing only 1500pts lists. And changing some stuff around. I’d love to get the doom in there now.
As to ultra’s I have got a small force (an abandoned project) of them they were the stern guard list previous mentioned based on the honour guard mins. I just couldn’t get it to work for me it really bugged me at the time. My problem is they just don’t do enough damage and then just got over run.