Empire Army book - likes and dislikes

[Wildeybeast]

So, those hardcore Empire players like myself have no doubt eagerly rushed out and spent today reading through the Empire book, just like I did. So, I'm wanting to know people's thoughts on the book and changes. I'm not just talking rules and I don't want this to be a moaning forum, more a discussion of your thoughts. So, I'll kick it off with some of my likes and dislikes.

LIKES
(Slightly) Expanded background - A bit more on the destruction of Solland and the Wars of the Vampire Counts

Demi-Gryph Knights - particularly their background and the mention of Knights riding other monsters, specifically The Winter of Wolves of Middenehim. Thunderwolf Cavalry + Knights = Frickkin awesome 'counts as' models!

Witch Hunters. Not only are they fluff gold, but at 50 points they are awesome wizard and hero killers. Sniper shots that have killing blow!? hell yes!

Marius Leitdorf. From the fluff of him brutally murdering halflings and seducing every woman in court to his 'crazy table' which may result him reciting poetry or going mental over his shirt being damaged he is awesome in every way and pretty reasonably priced at 220 point.

Steam Tank. Been nerfed stat wise, but has gone down 50 points and I think the new Steam points and misfire system means it is actually more useful and less likely to be renedered impotent by losing a few wounds.

DISLIKES
Nerfing of warmachines. I think the Helstorm and Mortar are now largely useless, I don't see any use for them except against Goblins and Skavenslaves.

Nerfing of Engineers. Unless you are running an artillery heavy army (and given the above, why would you?), there are much better uses for your points now.

Volkmar the Grim. Cruddace has decided to retcon the fluff and Volkmar's imprisonment and torment by Be'laakor has been removed, along with his Frenzy rule. Why?

So what do all the Empire fanboys think about the changes? Who else has a burning desire to make some Whitethunderwolf Knights?

[Chronowraith]

I had posted my likes and dislikes in the old thread. Overall I'm in agreement with you.

On the likes side throw in the new detachment rules since they are awesome. Also the new wizardmobiles are pretty awesome given their low point cost.

I disagree with the witch hunter though. He just doesn't have the stats, even with rerolls, to kill much of anything. I can see him killing some mages and a few characters but these are mostly goblins, skaven warlock engineers, elf mages of all types... Play against a Chaos Warrior army or even possibly a Vampire army (with no necros) and he's going to get annihilated... not because of special rules but just raw stats.

On the dislikes side... again.. I mostly agree. I think it's absurd that no characters can ride demigryphs though. I also hate that the steam tank is the ONLY heavy hitter in the rare slot. I knew before buying the book that War Wagons were out, but I was certainly hoping that maybe you could take a griffon as a rare or something. I really wish that the Empire book would at least give a single paragraph to each of the various states of the Empire. I don't think an Empire book has done that for a considerable amount of time. Usually it's just a sentence or two.

Again, I'm going to disagree with you on the warmachines. Mortars work fine. They are less useful against T4+ units but they still cause damage. They were simply too overpowered before. There is no reason a model that didn't even cost 100 points could cause as much damage as they did in the former book. If you get a solid hit on a unit you still hit 16ish models. the helstorm took a little bit more of a hit since it lost 2 points of strength and went from big to small templates. That being said it fires d3 small templates every turn and is now armor piercing. I haven't tried one, but I think it could still work, although would be even more random in nature.

I see GW as trying to shift games away from static gun lines and more into tactical movements. They want people to think about their actions and not just be on auto pilot which was really easy to fall into with an Empire gun line (same for dwarves). To this end they made the war machines more expensive and made the detachment rules much more flexible and inclusive.

[Wildeybeast]

Have to say I think you have missed the point of the Witch Hunter. He isn't designed to go up against combat monster heroes. What he is designed to do is kill mages. He will force all wizard lords to make sure that they have a ward save because otherwise they run the risk of being killed by a single pistol shot, and most people I play with rely on the safety of a unit to protect him. I think once people cotton on to them they will become a bit of an indulgence, but still less so than an engineer!

I agree on the lack of info on each of the states, I want more background! Why has no one taken over from Marius Leitdorf and what is going on with the missing elector count?

On the warmachines, I think mortars and helstorms will still work, but I just think there are much better uses for you points. With the mortar you need 5's to wound T3 models, so you are going to kill maybe 5 of those 16 models, assuming you get a good hit and the things doesn't misfire. I do however like the fact that all the warmachines have been bought in line with the standard misfire chart and I like what they have done with the helblaster misfire system.

I don't get why you feel we need another heavy hitter in the rare slot. With Knights, Rieksguard, Demigryphs and Greatswords there are plenty of S5/6 attacks wandering around elsewhere and they are going to chop up most things. The Luminark of Hysh kicks out S8, D3 wounds, flaming, magic missile bolt thrower shot (goodbye hellpit!)and that is in the rare slot.

Oh and one other big like I have is the BSB gets Hold the Line! Stick him in a unit with the +1 Ld banner and they aren't going anywhere!

[Diagnosis Ninja]

New guy, so beware my opinions:

I'm on the witch hunters side: I think he's awesome. He seems like a decent character hunter, and seen as his rule says model it at least means you could go sideways and aim for a unit leader or something. Might be a waste, but if your friends are in the habit of taking Magic Items on unit characters then the Pistol can snipe at them for an extra shot at killing blow. Besides, 60 points with all his weapons when he gives Magic resistance two and some kind of terror resistance to a unit is great.

Question I've always had: What is the point in a crossbowman when handgunners cost the same? Surely that 6" range isn't worth Armour Piercing?

As for warmachines and engineers, he seems expensive, and more like I'd take him with an Arabyan Carpet and pigeon bombs :P

As for the rare choice, the two new chariots seem interesting. While they aren't the whole shebang, they provide decent support for the rest of your army, and have some effects in their which would be silly not to dispel.

[Chronowraith]

Oh, I recognize the witch hunter is pretty good at killing mages... but to me he is situational at best. He costs 50 points and that is about the level of hero I'd have him go after (mage or otherwise). Maybe it is a difference of local-meta but around here.. people protect their level 4s with at least a 5+ invulnerable. Their main use will be against TK Hierophants (poor, poor TK), VC necromancers, and daemon heralds.

On the warmachines... I think that was GW's point. They wanted people to have to make choices. They've always exhibited a severe dislike of "auto-includes" and the mortar wasn't just an auto-include it was a, "Yes, I'd like 3 more please".

I think my desire for a hard-hitting rare slot is due to previous books. If you look at the other books that have come out in 8th edition they all get some big combat monster to throw in the rare slot. The wizard-mobiles are fantastic additions (particularly the luminark) but they are more support oriented... stay behind the lines and shoot and buff things as opposed to up-in-your-face combat goodness. That is why I wanted the war wagon.

Empire in general is going to be incredibly difficult to shift. They don't need to be steadfast since they can quite easily throw stubborn onto troops through cheap characters. I think this is the balancing factor to the increased point costs. You don't have to take as many warriors as before since you can easily gain stubborn.

I know it has been mentioned by many... but I'm still awestruck by the demigryph knights. Great fluff, great models, and a great unit overall. A little pricey... but you get what you pay for. These puppies are fantastic... now if only we could have characters with demigryph mounts!!! (I think GW just got lazy there and didn't want to do the model)

[Chronowraith]

That 6" could mean an entire extra round of shooting. In most scenarios you will start slightly more than 24" from your opponent (most people I've met will set up slightly back from the deployment line)... this means your handgunners can't shoot if you get the first turn while crossbows can. Against horde armies this is more crucial than armor piercing (armor piercing against skavenslaves is pointless).

Engineers really came out worse for wear. Incredibly saddening given the awesome plastic model that just came out.

You bring up a valid point with the witch hunter that I hadn't considered. The magic resistance granted to the unit he joins would be pretty spiffy. I still doubt his ability to kill anything other than weak characters though... but he has such a fantastic figure that I'll probably pick him up and give him a try at least. Can't hurt, right?


I'm on the witch hunters side: I think he's awesome. He seems like a decent character hunter, and seen as his rule says model it at least means you could go sideways and aim for a unit leader or something. Might be a waste, but if your friends are in the habit of taking Magic Items on unit characters then the Pistol can snipe at them for an extra shot at killing blow. Besides, 60 points with all his weapons when he gives Magic resistance two and some kind of terror resistance to a unit is great.

Question I've always had: What is the point in a crossbowman when handgunners cost the same? Surely that 6" range isn't worth Armour Piercing?

As for warmachines and engineers, he seems expensive, and more like I'd take him with an Arabyan Carpet and pigeon bombs :P

[Wildeybeast]

I know it has been mentioned by many... but I'm still awestruck by the demigryph knights. Great fluff, great models, and a great unit overall. A little pricey... but you get what you pay for. These puppies are fantastic... now if only we could have characters with demigryph mounts!!! (I think GW just got lazy there and didn't want to do the model)

They didn't even need to, with the Empire plastic hero kit you could easily convert one! Afterall, it's what you have to do if you want KF on a dragon or someone riding a pegasus, so they do it elsewhere in the book. Just a baffling decision all round. Still, loads of opportunities for other demigryph conversions. I can see some riding pegasi, unicorns, stags, my aforementioned thunderwolves etc.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

Hmm, I don't usually consider ranges over 24" in 40k. There, it's either that you've hit because it can reach the entire board, or you're about to charge, so things such as Tau Pulse Rifles play mostly the same as a Boltgun. I suppose the extra 3" short range might help a little too.

I also have another question: Detachments. I understand how they work, but I was wondering what other people thought of what units would act as better detachments and what as the major units?

Current idea I have for a solid battle line core looks something like:

Captain
Full Plate
Shield
Sword of Might
Helm of the Skavenslayer

Greatswords
Full Command
Glistening Pendant

Detachments

So far as I can tell, they're all have Hold the Line and Stubborn, as well as the Greatswords rerolling their first fail. They aren't going anywhere soon.

Thing is, any tips on the detachments units?

[Wildeybeast]

Really depends on what you are facing. Against 'standard' troops such as skaven the WS4 of Swordsmen is useful, against T4 troops like ogres you want the S4 halberds. I really don't see the point in militia or spearmen. Missile detachments are useful if you are using the parent unit defensively, but if you are taking the fight to your enemy they are going to be moving a lot and as such won't be shooting.

[Chronowraith]

I use militia all the time as detachments. They receive a ton of attacks. Sure, they aren't the most survivable and they are only WS3 S3 I3, but they are just as survivable as spearmen and halberdiers and against T3 enemies do more damage.

The only unit I wouldn't use as a detachment are probably spearmen. They tend to make better parent units although I still consider spears pretty weak in 8th edition overall. I tend to use Halberdiers and Swordsmen as parent units and then militia or halberdiers as detachments. I have also had luck with archers as detachments.

[Wildeybeast]

I'm thinking militia mght be more useful now they get the parents special rules and given the points increases in state troopers, they are quite cheap cannon fodder, my feelings to them are entirely personal and I can see their use. I agree entirely on spears, they are pretty rubbish, especially when compared to halberds and swords.

[eldargal]

I've so many likes after giving my copy a look over I think I'll just put the dislikes:

So few magic items. This is more an issue with 8th books in general but it is the case with the Empire book so I include it. 15-20 items I think would be better than 10-12 or whatever it is now.

Mortars. They were overpowered, and could have borne a strenght decrease OR a points increase but both were heavy handed. Having said that I'm not convinced they are useless. there are still a lot of T3 armies and DE and Skaven in particular are top tier and you will still be taking out a rank or more of troops with each direct hit, softening them up before thye hit your state troop anvils.

Re: the Witch Hunter, watch Book of Hoeth HE mages cower in fear. I think it is an excellent addition to an Empire army in a game where magic use is strong.

[Wildeybeast]

I agree on entirely on the magic items, I also think they are all overpriced (except the Helm of the Skavenslayer which is undercosted and awesome). I expected it given the way the other books have gone, but I'm still disappointed to lose the Seal of Destruction and Aldred's Casket, they were awesome little items. Glad to see Runefangs getting a bit cheaper though.
I don't think moratrs are useless, I just think I'd do much more damage with another detachment of S4 halberdiers for the points, especially given that the engineers are now largely useless.

[eldargal]

So, the growing consensus around the interwebs seems to be that the mortar is actually still a viable choice, just not the no-brainer it was before.

:rolleyes:

This is what I love about the internet gaming community, it's all doom and gloom when a new book comes out until people start playing more than one or two games with things and start to get used to things.

[Wildeybeast]

I'm sure it is still viable, but given how fricckin awesome detachments are now, I'd much rather spend my points on them, especially as if you are investing in a warmachine you need an engineer to babysit the thing.

[simonphenix]

Hi all. New to the BoLs forums and empire so wanted to give the little experence I have. We started a campaign at our local game store and was able to play a 1500 and 1750 battle, both ended up being against dwarves. Games went well with a draw the first game and a minor victory the second. A couple things that stood out, Outriders are awsome, I ran 2 groups of 5 and was able to kill 2X10 slayers and a cannon plus some warriors my first game. Cannon is still good even with the price hike. Hellblaster with a engineer is brutal, Gyrocopter and big block of hammers were blasted to peaces by the 3rd turn in the second game. Flagalents were ok but a bit underwhelming after the first round. Their unbrakable made sure they staied in place, but for how many points they are each its alot to spend on a unit whos job is to hold something up and die horrabley. I'm thinking that Greatswords would work better for me. They were kind of funny at the end when i was down to 2 left and rolled a 6 for my mayrter hits. The big dissapoitment was the mortar. I know theirs alot of descusion on if people still think it's worth taking, after my first game I would say no. I know I was playing against dwarves so that extra toughness works against it, but even when I was counting 5s to wound it still wasnt doing enought to make it seem worth taking. The weakness became a little overwhelming when in the second game I traded it out for a Hellblaster and for 20 points more it seems im doing alot more dammage.

[Nightstalker]

i dont really like the new detachment rule. gun and crossbow men dont really have a benefit of those rules.

[Nightstalker]

Volkmar the Grim. Cruddace has decided to retcon the fluff and Volkmar's imprisonment and torment by Be'laakor has been removed, along with his Frenzy rule. Why?


i think its because all that happened during the storm of chaos event, which isnt even mentioned in the book. Its all before Volkmar was used as a standard banner from that demon Bel Akohr (or something like that

[Wildeybeast]

i think its because all that happened during the storm of chaos event, which isnt even mentioned in the book. Its all before Volkmar was used as a standard banner from that demon Bel Akohr (or something like that

Indeed, it would seem that their decision to never again do global campaigns that affect the fluff has extended to retconning them out of the fluff. Curiously though, they have released all three Valtens in FC, despite there being no mention of him in the background or rules for him. It's not even like he makes for a good stand in model. KF on horseback is now dead easy to model with the plastic kit and the Empire General kit allows you to make pretty much any character you want.

[Nightstalker]

Indeed, it would seem that their decision to never again do global campaigns that affect the fluff has extended to retconning them out of the fluff. Curiously though, they have released all three Valtens in FC, despite there being no mention of him in the background or rules for him. It's not even like he makes for a good stand in model. KF on horseback is now dead easy to model with the plastic kit and the Empire General kit allows you to make pretty much any character you want.

if you have the Karl Franz kit, you easyly can put him on a horse if you dont glue him on the gryphon. I think its sad they let storm of Chaos and things like that disappear. i liked that plot very much. The cult of Slaanesh army list in it was the reason i started the chaosarmies (which are not playable anymore thanks to splitting those up in beastmen, warriors and deamons)

[Drunkencorgimaster]

I'm incline to agree with Wileybeast on the Mortars. They do not seem like the best use of points. I also agrre that Militia are a good bet now. I could be way off on my nbext point because I really suck at WFB but I have serious reservations about handgunners. I love their look and fluff but gamewise have not found them to be particularly useful at 8 points a figure (low BS been their biggest weakness in my opinion). Why should we take them now at 9 points? If someone can explain how to properly use them, I am all ears because I really like their look and lore.

One design gripe: Read the description of the forests of the Empire in the fluff section and then look at their locations on the map. Looks like a case of the right (writer) hand not knowing what the left (illustrator) was doing.

[Thornblood]

I've played a few games with my Empire army. Its an infantry horde and heres a little performance review.

Generals/ Captains; The "Hold the Line" rule is invaluable with an infantry horde. However I might need to take a BSB as a big block of swordsmen ran off the table when i fought against Ogres.

The Witch Hunter; Love him, love the flavour he adds however mine has been exceptionally unlucky with my dice rolling and seems to spend too long chasing enemy mages around the battlefield (with Benny Hill music playing) whilst constantly missing with his pistols. Thats more down to me and the dice. Oh, and when I fought an Ogre army the Gutlord or whatever the thing was called was at the other end of the table so he called a unit champion a heretic and got eated.

Spearmen; Are amazing as a horde. I field mine 11 wide, 4 deep and some spares for casualties. Thats alot of attacks whether your fighting another horde, or a small unit is trying to slow you down. I take mine with a sixteen man detachment of free company (that also benefit from Warrior Priest/ Captain Buffs from the parent unit, and a 5 man archer unit, for a little misdirection, a little stand and shoot or to split off as ablative armour to my wizard.
So yeah, Spearmen- 45 attacks benefiting from the warrior priests hatred, and maybe some re-rolls to wound, or mauybe a 5+ Ward save. Don't waste that Ward save on swordsmen. Dont waste the to wound on Halberdiers or Greatswords.

Swordsmen; so far havn't really held their own for me. I see how on paper they can be better than spearmen, but I just havnt got as much mileage out of them.

Special Characters seem fun, but maybe overpriced in a few places. Nonetheless Im gonna have a go with Markus Wolfhart and his hunters, but they are only gonna be worth their points of they start hunting really big monsters. Volkmar might end up in my list because Im leaning on a warrior priest and he seems only slightly overpriced rather than really overpriced. Fluff wise im not sure about Kurt Helborg and Ludwig Schwatzhelm having a duelling rivalry with such a stats difference between them in game.

Really nice book. Im not quite sure what to do with my crossbowmen and handgunners now though. I like the handgunners for their sniping champion, but comparatively Outriders can put out alot more firepower for the points cost and even pick up a 4+ armour save (whilst they loose the fast cavalry rule, their weapons are move-or-fire so i'm not sure how helpful it was in the first place). Anyway, I have yet to experiment with them.

[Wildeybeast]

I agree with handgunners and crossbowmen being largely redundant. They don't work as detachments for combat units since they will be moving with the unit most of the game. In the previous edition I used them to bulk out my core and as s defensive screen for my artillery battery. Since my artillety battery is now a single cannon and knights are much more viable after their points drop, they have no place in my army. Which is shame. The only time I would consider using them is if you are planning to go really defensive, but the Empire now feels designed to play much more offensively and can go toe to toe with pretty much anything these days.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Just finished my first game with the new codex. I thought I must be missing something with the handgunners so like the bull-headed fool am I, I brought them. Huge mistake. Just as bad as ever and now more expensive. I can't imagine why GW was determined to kill off a great-looking line of models they just designed a mere year or two ago. But hey, if it makes them happy...

Using the same poor judgement I also brought a Mortar which actually worked out ok, but I was firing at Night Goblins with it. Other than Gobbos and Skaven I can't see a great future for this venerable weapon. The Witch Hunter died without doing much, but I think that was as much my fault as anything. It would help if he was allowed to take a horse. I had trouble getting him to where I most needed his services.

Hold the Line however...wow. Very impressive. I lost the battle of course (it was still me playing after all) but my opponent had to pretty much whittle a large block of state troops down to almost nothing to defeat it.

The Helblaster also performed quite well. It was more reliable than it used to be and remains a must-have in my army.

In any event it is clear that the Codex is going to make me rethink my whole approach to the empire.

[Chronowraith]

Mortar works against more armies than just Skaven and Goblins. Essentially any T3 army that doesn't have high armor saves which is most of them. I've found it works great against Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings (infantry only), Lizardmen (skinks), wood elves, and even other empire armies. It works reasonably well against Dark and High elves too.

Handgunners are... disappointing. I think the only time I'd consider bringing some is if I knew my opponent was going to take irritating units of light cavalry in high quantities. Otherwise they are just too expensive for their points.

Helblaster is amazing, especially with an engineer. I've played multiple games where it survived the entire game without blowing itself up (which was pretty much a given in the last book).

[Wildeybeast]

How regularly do you find the Helbalster hitting then. I haven't bothered using one since they had to roll to hit as i found they did very little damage (esp, at long range) before blowing themselves up. I'm taking one warmachine with an engineer, currently it's a great cannon, but I'm interested by the positive press the Helbalster is getting and I like the new rules.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

I only played the one game so this is largely anecdotal evidence but I got off three rounds of shooting with the Helblaster before the enemy wrecked it. In a agreement with Chronowrath that was an unusual demise as it would more typically blow itself up in the past. I don't remember the number of hits, but I know each round of shooting generated over twenty shots. That may have been atypical luck but it was a much better buy than the hapless handgunners.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

So people don't like the look of Handgunners? I've only been looking at a couple of units in an army, looking something like:

10 Handgunners
Marksman
Hochland Long Rifle

If anything, it's only to take the Long rifle, seen as I'd rather spend more on 10 guys, than an engineer with one. Sniper just seems to add mind games into the whole equation.