Moving on from the table edge, into models...

[sneakyben]

Moving on from the table edge from reserve, into models...
2 situations I have questions about:

I have units deployed right on the table edge... Opponent wants to bring on models from reserve directly into that area...

Situation 1) they are infantry... the only way they can get on is for them to be placed within 1" of my models... Since this is the movement phase, rather than the assult phase, is this allowed? if not is the unit unable to enter the table at this point?

Situation 2) they are tanks... can they tank-shock as they enter the table?

[doom-kitten]

The infantry one is a definite no and the opponent has to choose a different location to come on from, but for tanks I couldn't tell you and am curious about it myself.

[Wolfshade]

They can tank shock you, but if you successfully stop the tank ala death or glory attack then you can strand the vehicle partially off the table and therefore destroyed

[jifel]

Another question, can jump infantry in normal reserve just jump over guys lined up on the table edge?

[Nightspawn]

Situation 1) It is unfortunate but your troops will not be able to enter the table edge until the enemy is away from it. It is a tactic that some armies can pull off. This could result in them not coming in at all.


Situation 2) When your tank comes on it can tank shock. This tank shock happens before the tank is on the board.(if the enemy is close enough to stop troops, it should be close enough for tanks not to be on the board at all, partly on the board doesn't count) So if it gets immoblized if will be destroyed being that it is still off the board. Wrecked and destroyed if they do the damage to stop it is off the board too so no crater.


Situation 3) Jump packs cannot just jump over the enemy line to get onto the table. But they can deepstrike.


Hope this helps.

[bfmusashi]

Situation 3) Jump packs cannot just jump over the enemy line to get onto the table. But they can deepstrike.

I disagree. Jump infantry can ignore other models and terrain in their 12" move. p.52 the block on Movement.

[AbusePuppy]

Yes, Jump Infantry (as well as Skimmers and Jetbikes) can all "fly over" units in their way when entering via a table edge, just as they are always allowed to do- you'll have to land more than 1" away from the enemy, of course.

[Nightspawn]

Pg. 94 - When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge(unless it's deep striking or outflanking). Each model's move is measured from the table edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board edge in the previous turn and moved as normal.

If the enemy is on the board edge, that means that your jump boys would have to be more than one inch away from their own table edge. Having to keep back at least one inch from the enemy in the movement phase. Your reserves in the movement phase wouldn't even be able to get close to the table edge in the movement phase because of the one inch rule. So how would they be able to move on at all?

"Each model's move is measured from the table edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board edge in the previous turn and moved as normal." If they were there before the enemy turn it would be different but they were not. Occupying the edge so you opponent can't deploy is a viable tactic against and army. Jump packs or not. And jump packs will not allow you just to "ignore" the enemy if he is too close to your own edge(ie, on the edge or within one inch of it).

[SeattleDV8]

Really, can you measure to a model that is off the board?
Also, you did notice that the unit/models are not actually just off the tables edge but " as if they had been positioned just off the board edge "

'As if ' is not the same as being at the tables edge, otherwise the units on the table could not move to within 1" of the edge.
So in your idea no unit can move closer than 1" from the table's edge even though there is no unit to measure to, heh.


Sillyness aside, AbusePuppy is correct.

[The Plumber]

Situation 3) Jump packs cannot just jump over the enemy line to get onto the table. But they can deepstrike.


Hope this helps.[/QUOTE

afraid your wrong here buddy. As long as they remain 1" away from the enemy, jump infantry (and jetbikes/skimmers) can move over models on the edge of the table.

I have seen players try and dog pile deldar webway portals in this manner, (which is basically a table edge) only to find themselves stumped by hellions and reavers...

[Nightspawn]

" as if they had been positioned just off the board edge in the previous turn and moved as normal" -This means that you cannot come anywhere near the table edge where an enemy is that close. So your starting point is gone.

"Just off the board edge" would be to close so you would not be able to start there.

If you have no starting point you cannot deploy.

Show me some FAQ or anything that says you can.

[DarkLink]

Wrong.

See, you might want to actually read the rules to justify your argument. The "just off the table edge" is just shorthand we players might use, it's not what the rules actually say.

All the rules say is that you may move onto the board from any point on the table edge, measuring from table edge. It's kind of the same thing as if you placed the model just off the board, and then moved it, but that's not what the rules actually say.

Your argument relies on the idea that you place the models off the board edge, then move them. This is not what happens. You simply measure from the table edge and move on. That move can't normally take you within 1" of an enemy model, but in the case of Jump Infantry it does not matter.

[Nightspawn]

You are surely misguided and can't show any proof of what you say is correct. I have given examples and rules quotes. Just because you want the rule to work your way because you would lose your squad doesn't mean anything.

Give me a ruling from a tournament venue like adepticon. You have nothing. Check with your local GW store and they will tell you the same.

[thecactusman17]

Rules quotes from what? We have quoted rules. Further, there has never to my knowledge EVER been an occasion where jump infantry or skimmers were disallowed from hopping over an enemy unit from the table edge. However, there was an infamous "victory" caused when a non-skimmer bike army was prevented from entering the table by careful positioning of an infiltrating Kroot army.

The models never exist prior to coming on from the table edge. Thus, they don't worry about being within 1" of the table edge. Further, the rules specifically state that you measure from the board edge without restriction, without any rules preventing you from starting there. Ending movement within 1" of an enemy, however, still remains as a limitation so you might not be able to jump clean over a dense pack of Orks or Guardsmen.

If there's anything that your rules would make illegal, it would be that enemy models could not choose to end their movement next to a table edge if the opposing player could also choose or be randomly required to come on from that edge, because according to your logic theoretically they would exist 1" away from all table edges simultaneously, sort of like Schroedingers cat.

[SeattleDV8]

Again, how do we measure to a unit that is off of the table?
You can't therefore you can only measure to those units once they have hit the board.
In the case given, infantry and non-tank vehicles (and Bikes) could not move though the unit because they would be moving within 1" of an enemy.
Tanks could tank shock.
Skimmers, jetpacks and jet bikes all have this rule "they can move over all other models and all terrain freely(BRB pg. 52,pg.53 & pg.71)
Likewise there is no rule against starting your movement within 1".
You are not allowed to move within 1" of an enemy but if you are already within 1" you may move away.
BRB pg.63 Assaulting Vehicles
The vehicle and the enemy remain where they are and are free to simply move away in future turns

Your one quote doesn't say what you think it does. (Inconceivable!)
There is nothing stopping the jumpers, skimmers or jetbikes from starting at the tables edge, even with enemy models lined up along it.

[Tynskel]

hahah. I like the Princess Bride reference. Nice and subtle, big man, Andre.

[DarkLink]

You are surely misguided...


Oh, is that so? And don't call me Shirley;).



...and can't show any proof of what you say is correct.

We'll see about that, in case you've ignored all the other posts here. Your argument is based on the unfounded presumption that models are first "placed" just off the board edge, then moved on. Thing is, "as if" does not necessarily mean "exactly the same". It means "similar to". And since you seem like the type to contest this, Merriam-Webster dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/as%20if)online uses a number of example sentences that are nonsensical if you assume that the phrase "as if" means "exactly the same thing": "it seemed as if the day would never end", or "he ran as if he were chased as a ghost". The day doesn't actually end, nor is he being chased by a ghost, it's just similar to those situations.

To rephrase the rule with equivalent wording, their movement is measured from the board edge, similarly to how they would if you physically placed them there, but it does not necessitate that they actually physically start there.

At no other point in the rules do models off the table exist on the table. You cannot measure range to them, you cannot draw LOS from them, you cannot use aura abilities with them, and you cannot use things like psychic powers with them. They do not exist until they take that first step onto the board.

Your argument relies on one specific interpretation of a phrase that can be taken to mean something else that does not support your argument. If you cannot see the hole in your argument, then only an English teacher can help you.

Incidentally, there is an in-game example of this precise issue. A unit with counter attack gains +1A "as if" they had assaulted that turn. By your argument, they would then benefit from furious charge, if they had it. GW, however, clarifies that this is not the case in the Space Wolves FAQ. So not only does your argument rely on one of several possible meanings of a particular phrase, but GW has already specifically stated what they mean when they say "as if", and it doesn't align with what you claim.



Just because you want the rule to work your way because you would lose your squad doesn't mean anything.

Just because you want the rule to work your way because your opponent would lose his squad doesn't mean anything.

I actually virtually never use reserves with disembarked squads anyways, so I really have no stake in this.



Give me a ruling from a tournament venue like adepticon. You have nothing. Check with your local GW store and they will tell you the same.

Neither tournament rulings nor GW store employee opinions are relevant. There isn't a certification class that grants them special authority to settle disputes, outside of their own events of course. They are simply a third party to settle arguments so that tournaments run smoothly, not an infallible source of knowledge.

And, since the FAQ I mentioned above come from GW staff, I did in fact provide a ruling to directly undermine your argument. Who's got nothing now?

[s_harrington]

Heh. Darklink got trolled.

Wonders never cease.

[SeattleDV8]

hahah. I like the Princess Bride reference. Nice and subtle, big man, Andre.

Heh, glad you caught that.

[Nightspawn]

It's not a doubt that they could jump over them if they were on the board already. The problem comes where they are suppose to start their movement from.

In the rule book it says " Each model's move is measured from the table edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board edge in the previous turn and moved as normal.".

Doesn't every model have to do this including jump infantry? Being just off the board edge just like everyone else would stop them from coming onto the board. True?

They are not available in the previous turn to set up there. So when they become avaiable they wouldn't be there if an enemy is on that edge.

If the measuring point to move the jump guys is the board edge then they can't do it because they will be within one inch of the enemy.

[Tynskel]

You are missing the point- jump infantry, jet bikes, and skimmers can fly OVER their opponents. It doesn't matter that there are opponents right on the board edge.

Also, it has been mentioned before. If you are already within 1" of the enemy, you can move away! You are not in a perpetual state of non movement.

Furthermore, the edge of the board is the 'abyss'. Nothing exists out there... You have to start measurement in the reference frame of the board. The only way to do that would be to start from the board edge...

[Nightspawn]

You are the one missing the point.

" If you are already within 1" of the enemy, you can move away! You are not in a perpetual state of non movement." If you are within one inch you are suppose to be in CC by the rules.


" You have to start measurement in the reference frame of the board. The only way to do that would be to start from the board edge... " Starting from the edge of the board is like "saying" that they are there to measure from. You CANNOT start within one inch of the enemy. Hold your jump model next to the board edge before you start measuring when there is an enemy model on the inside edge. Now look at it. .....giving time for you to do so.... Does it look like it is within one inch of the enemy? Yes. So how could you start measuring from the board edge (or the abyss)?

What this is is a rule grey area. You see it your way and I see it mine. So until a FAQ comes out.

[DarkLink]

I'll point out there's at least one other case in which you can, in fact, be within 1" of an opponent while not locked in assault, and don't necessarily have to move away. And even if you do, you still start within 1" of the enemy and move away.


Heh. Darklink got trolled.

I mostly just wanted to quote Airplane!. And this actually reminds me more of some of Tynskel's arguments than trolling:p.

[Tynskel]

hey, at least I could actual rules in my arguments.

[thecactusman17]

It's not a doubt that they could jump over them if they were on the board already. The problem comes where they are suppose to start their movement from.

In the rule book it says " Each model's move is measured from the table edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board edge in the previous turn and moved as normal.".

Doesn't every model have to do this including jump infantry? Being just off the board edge just like everyone else would stop them from coming onto the board. True?

They are not available in the previous turn to set up there. So when they become avaiable they wouldn't be there if an enemy is on that edge.

If the measuring point to move the jump guys is the board edge then they can't do it because they will be within one inch of the enemy.

But there are no models at the board edge when the movement takes place. so whether or not that point is within 1" of an enemy model is irrelevant--we measure from it and place models at the end point. Deep strikers, for example, have to actually place and drop at least one model before the unit can be subject to Mishap. And the reason that the Mishap occurs isn't because they started their movement there, it's because they ENDED their movement phase there.

Which is the only restriction on movement. Models may not *end* their movement or move within 1" of an enemy model. Given that the model is beginning movement and has permission within the relevant rules to move over and through enemy models, there is no conflict. There is no point where the model suddenly exists off the table edge-- per the rulebook, all players know that the table edge is the end of the world! No models exist there, they don't exist until some part of the model comes onto the board--whether that's a partial tank move (probably resulting in a ram) or jumping over the enemy force on jetbikes.

Even fleeing models don't exist off board at any point--the moment any model in a fleeing unit touches the relevant board edge, they are removed from play entirely without any opportunity to go further. Even if they would only cross the board edge by a fraction of an inch, or would touch it exactly, they are removed. If one model touches the board edge exactly and another model in the same unit is 2 feet behind, both models are removed because no part of the unit is allowed to exist as a model off the board.

[Nightspawn]

But there are no models at the board edge when the movement takes place. so whether or not that point is within 1" of an enemy model is irrelevant--we measure from it and place models at the end point.

It is very relevent when you are measuring for them to come onto the table.



There is no point where the model suddenly exists off the table edge-- per the rulebook, all players know that the table edge is the end of the world!

By what you say they do suddenly exist. As soon as you give a point of measurment they exist.

Use this the next time you want to use jump packs that way.

"POOF! Here is my jump squad and we are just going to ignore you and deploy away from the edge where you are clearly blocking so I can't deploy the rest of my army. Oh no I have no rules to back this up but I'm doing it anyway."

[Tynskel]

but you are forgetting... You can jump OVER them.

You are not physically on the table until AFTER you begin moving them... In the process of moving they are jumping OVER your models along the edge.

What you are saying is that ANY model that is 1" from an opponent cannot move EVER. That's not correct.

[Nightspawn]

If you are measuring from the table edge, it's like you are saying that your squad is there for movement. How can you measure from that point if the enemy is already on that table edge?

[bfmusashi]

If you are measuring from the table edge, it's like you are saying that your squad is there for movement. How can you measure from that point if the enemy is already on that table edge?

You realize the consequence of this argument is you can not move within 1" of the table edge as the reserve unit is already there.

[Caldera02]

Wow Nightspawn, really? Why would anyone want to play you ever? You sir are a douchebag.

All your arguments have been rebuffed by Tynskel and Darklink fairly well and your asking for an FAQ as the only way you will accept this ruling. You will never get one because it's not needed. And as for wanting someone's judgement from somewhere like Adepticon, as an Active judge at Wargamescon and having judged alongside members of the Adepticon judging crew, I am telling you that you are wrong. If you tried to pull something like this at a major event you would get laughed at.

You need to relax, this is just a game and trying to get super technical in an abstract game is going to get you nowhere.

[thecactusman17]

By what you say they do suddenly exist. As soon as you give a point of measurment they exist.


Nope. Points of measurement and models are two entirely different things. Models do not exist off the table edge. The edge is measured from, not the model base. And even then, it's irrelevant.

There is NOTHING in the rulebook that prevents a model from starting its movement within one inch of an enemy model--in fact, the vehicles in assault rules explicitly state that you can! So long as the models are not locked in combat, and so long as they did not end a movement within 1" of an enemy model, they are 100% legal placements. When the model comes on from the board edge, it does not suddenly stop at the 1" zone. It just exists, and is compelled to move up to its full distance onto the board by nature of not being allowed to place anywhere off the board edge. If it does not end movement within 1" of an enemy model, and is jump infantry or a similar unit that can move over others, it is well within its right to exist at that point so long as it does not end its movement there.

FURTHERMORE, there has NEVER been a case of models being disallowed to come onto the table edge if they would be allowed to make a full move to a legal position on the board to my knowledge, in any tournament setting--if there were, rest assured that the issue would have been dealt with swiftly and publicly. Those sorts of things happen frequently in games like Capture and Control when a player has vital objectives and units near board edges.

[bethor]

Wow... dickmove much?

if jumpers ignore enemy models during their movement...

It does impress me how there was a nice consensus going, and 1 guy can throw everyone into a tissy.

Second, its bad form to completely block off the enemy's reserve route. Mostly because if your opponent is enough of a noob to allow you to cover his entire backfield, he needs all the help he can get. Sporting chances and all...

[Nightspawn]

Wow Nightspawn, really? Why would anyone want to play you ever? You sir are a douchebag.

All your arguments have been rebuffed by Tynskel and Darklink fairly well and your asking for an FAQ as the only way you will accept this ruling. You will never get one because it's not needed. And as for wanting someone's judgement from somewhere like Adepticon, as an Active judge at Wargamescon and having judged alongside members of the Adepticon judging crew, I am telling you that you are wrong. If you tried to pull something like this at a major event you would get laughed at.

You need to relax, this is just a game and trying to get super technical in an abstract game is going to get you nowhere.



Nice way to be child like and start calling names.

No one has rebuffed anything. And no I will not take your view of that rule as a fact. Good luck making up the way rules go in your games. You probably need it.

I know it's just a game and will continue to view and play it this way. I will abide by the rules while others will streach and bend them to what they want.

Last post for me about this. Keep dreaming that you're right. Truth is until it's FAQ'd neither side will be right. But I'm willing to accept that. Can you? I didn't think so.

[Caldera02]

Yay he's gone! I love how this is all of a sudden a "new" problem for this guy.

[SeattleDV8]

Nice way to be child like and start calling names.

No one has rebuffed anything. And no I will not take your view of that rule as a fact. Good luck making up the way rules go in your games. You probably need it.

I know it's just a game and will continue to view and play it this way. I will abide by the rules while others will streach and bend them to what they want.

Last post for me about this. Keep dreaming that you're right. Truth is until it's FAQ'd neither side will be right. But I'm willing to accept that. Can you? I didn't think so.

It is not a grey area, it does not need a FAQ.
The rules on this are clear.
You have misinterpreted the movement rule for reserves (which was your only rule quote).
To back this misinterpretion you have invented serveral rules.
We are not the person making crap up.
Like this bit of sillyness
"POOF! Here is my jump squad and we are just going to ignore you and deploy away from the edge where you are clearly blocking so I can't deploy the rest of my army. Oh no I have no rules to back this up but I'm doing it anyway."
Yes they do just ignore the troops in their path (and terrain), as I pointed out in post 15
Skimmers, jetpacks and jet bikes all have this rule "they can move over all other models and all terrain freely(BRB pg. 52,pg.53 & pg.71)
another gem
If you are within one inch you are suppose to be in CC by the rules.
Do you have a rule quote to back that?
Units that assaulted a vehicle are not locked in CC and can be shot at.

Also you never did answer the question, would it even be legal for the models on the table to move within 1" of the edge if the opponent had units in reserve?(if we follow your twisted logic)

[Rapture]

Wow Nightspawn, really? Why would anyone want to play you ever? You sir are a douchebag.

Wow Caldera02, really?. Calm down.

[addamsfamily36]

Nice way to be child like and start calling names.

No one has rebuffed anything. And no I will not take your view of that rule as a fact. Good luck making up the way rules go in your games. You probably need it.

I know it's just a game and will continue to view and play it this way. I will abide by the rules while others will streach and bend them to what they want.

Last post for me about this. Keep dreaming that you're right. Truth is until it's FAQ'd neither side will be right. But I'm willing to accept that. Can you? I didn't think so.

Wow just wow.

I'd like to point out that you yourself on the very first page stated a tank could tank shock from a board edge. how does it do this if it could not be within 1 inch of an enemy? if a tank can drive on from a table edge and be within 1 inch of an enemy when it starts its move, so can jump infantry (by your own rules interpretation).

[Caldera02]

Wow Caldera02, really?. Calm down.

Nope

[Tynskel]

Wow just wow.

I'd like to point out that you yourself on the very first page stated a tank could tank shock from a board edge. how does it do this if it could not be within 1 inch of an enemy? if a tank can drive on from a table edge and be within 1 inch of an enemy when it starts its move, so can jump infantry (by your own rules interpretation).

I am glad you pointed this out. I have sorta just been on the periphery of this argument, but I was chuckling every time I read the Tank Shock statement. Just been waiting to see if someone was paying close attention to this thread.

[DarkLink]

I am glad you pointed this out. I have sorta just been on the periphery of this argument, but I was chuckling every time I read the Tank Shock statement. Just been waiting to see if someone was paying close attention to this thread.

I knew there was a loophole I forgot about.

[addamsfamily36]

I am glad you pointed this out. I have sorta just been on the periphery of this argument, but I was chuckling every time I read the Tank Shock statement. Just been waiting to see if someone was paying close attention to this thread.

:D


I knew there was a loophole I forgot about.

Its a shame he has decided to leave I'm curious as to how he might word his way out of that one. Not that i'm cruel or anything...:)

[Tynskel]

Quick! Everyone, beat the dead horse while it's down!

[hisdudeness]

Someone rang?

I believe night-something-something has a point....AH, DON'T HIT ME IN THE FACE! :p

[fuzzyguy]

Someone rang?

I believe night-something-something has a point....AH, DON'T HIT ME IN THE FACE! :p
I see what you did there. :p