Tactical marines vs. Grey hunters

[mordiano]

Hadn't had a game in a long time so it was with some suprise i watched the Tactical vs Grey hunter duel that ensued.

Man Grey hunters have bolt pistols before the assault, bolt pistols for the extra cc attack, counter-charge....

That bolt pistol just makes them waay better than the tacticals.


I expect Tacticals to get it to in their next dex: like they used to have.

That would make Tacticals" tactical in the sense that they can at least attempt diffrent things...


..bur for now im almost embarrassed by taking my grey hunters against tacticals...

[WYSIWYG]

Hadn't had a game in a long time so it was with some suprise i watched the Tactical vs Grey hunter duel that ensued.

Man Grey hunters have bolt pistols before the assault, bolt pistols for the extra cc attack, counter-charge....

That bolt pistol just makes them waay better than the tacticals.


I expect Tacticals to get it to in their next dex: like they used to have.

That would make Tacticals" tactical in the sense that they can at least attempt diffrent things...


..bur for now im almost embarrassed by taking my grey hunters against tacticals...

Tactical Marines have bolt pistols, just like your grey hunters. What they don't have that your grey hunters have are chainswords and counter-attack.

[mysterex]

From the fluff I've read the standard kit for a Space Marine is bolter and combat blade (i.e. close combat weapon). I don't recall ever reading about a standard tactical marine with a bolt pistol.

I think the only reason we have them now was that with the change to 5th you couldn't charge after firing a Rapid Fire weapon, i.e. the the codex has diverged from the background to accommodate the rule set.

That said the one great thing about tactical marines over grey hunters is combat squads.

[doom-kitten]

In the SM Codex it lists Tactical squads as having, power armour, BOLT PISTOL,frag and krak grenades, boltgun, no mention of a combat blade (why? I don't know, seems like an something they'd carry). Pretty sure a bolt pistol would be standard among marines as a side arm much like a pistol of handgun in a modern military, as for fluff theres plenty of mention, mostly when a marine uses the last of his ammo or grants someone the Emperor's Blessing. It's only common sense to carry a sidearm and a combat weapon, usually a bayonet knife.

[Sisiutl]

This thread brought to you by 2009.

[phoenix01]

This thread brought to you by 2009.

Wasn't that the disaster movie with the world ending?

[mordiano]

...so then give ém a frikkin combat blade then!!

Anything to make em halfway decent!!

[Kawauso]

Tactical Marines -are- halfway decent. :P

Combat Squads is pretty great, and they have sergeants for free, and they can get heavy weapons. These are all things they have on Grey Hunters.

Grey Hunters are a bit undercosted, and I'll agree that Tacticals would not be broken if they had combat blades (and it would make a lot of sense), but Tacticals are far from worthless.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

I am going to have to agree with Kawauso. Grey Hunters are great but SM Tactical Squads are not bad by a long shot in my view. I think they are one of the most underated units in the game. Put 'em in a dirt-cheap rhino and you've got a mobile rock-hard unit that can take up to 10 wounds and put out a respectable amount of firepower (especially if you throw a few extra points into specialized weapons).

[pyroclasm]

Tactical squads just reflect a more.... fluid form of warfare. Grey Hunters want to get into your face for glory; Tactical Squads want to apply pressure at various ranges to achieve victory. Fluffwise, Tacticals easily compare, but game wise it is harder to see the pros over Grey Hunters. There are some though.

[The Plumber]

Pretty sure tac squads are univesally accepted as the worst power armoured troop choice in the game, whilst grey hunters are the complete opposite, even chaos space marines have access to better equipment....

[The Plumber]

Tactical squads just reflect a more.... fluid form of warfare. Grey Hunters want to get into your face for glory; Tactical Squads want to apply pressure at various ranges to achieve victory. Fluffwise, Tacticals easily compare, but game wise it is harder to see the pros over Grey Hunters. There are some though.

I thought grey hunter fluff had them down as a more reserved marine, as apposed to the more overzealous bloodclaws?

[Kawauso]

Pretty sure tac squads are univesally accepted as the worst power armoured troop choice in the game, whilst grey hunters are the complete opposite, even chaos space marines have access to better equipment....

There's more to it than equipment.

Tacticals have And They Shall Know no Fear and, again, free sergeants. Those are huge. They get LD9 without having to pay for it and they won't run off the board without a unit chasing after them. Also, again, Combat Squads, which is huge. And Combat Tactics, which can be pretty good when it does come up. Chaos Marines don't have those things.

And even if we were to analyze it as much as possible and conclude Tacticals are the 'worst' MEQ troop choice out there - so what? They're still really good, overall, in the game. Being the worst of the best, for example, isn't really saying that something isn't good. Not to put words in your mouth - just trying to keep things in perspective.

[DarkLink]

Free sergeants aren't a big deal when the unit is overpriced in the first place. Nor is the ability to occasionally not run away that useful when the squad isn't very good in the first place. Combat squads is decent, but again each individual 5-man squad is still overpriced for what it does.

BTW, the sergeants aren't actually free. You're paying an extra 10pts when you purchase the squad because it comes with the sergeant.

The fundamental problem with tactical Marines is that they're bad at everything they do. They have crappy firepower and are bad in close combat for their points. At long range, you get at best one heavy weapon, which you're spending ~200pts to get. At short range, you have some bolters and a ~200pt meltagun. In close combat, you get owned by any real assault unit.

About the only thing that Tactical Marines can do well is hold objectives, since they are reasonably durable. But when it comes to actually doing something, they're outclassed by basically every other power armor troop choice in the game.

Tactical Marines have some useful abilities. ATSKNF combined with Combat Tactics is nice. But the few decent things about them does nothing to change their mediocrity. Gimmicks do not make a unit good.


Fixing them would be pretty easy. Second CCW, 15pts each. Then, they're actually decent, though the inflexibility of being forced to take only one heavy and/or one special weapon would still limit them a lot.

[The Plumber]

There's more to it than equipment.

Tacticals have And They Shall Know no Fear and, again, free sergeants. Those are huge. They get LD9 without having to pay for it and they won't run off the board without a unit chasing after them. Also, again, Combat Squads, which is huge. And Combat Tactics, which can be pretty good when it does come up. Chaos Marines don't have those things.

And even if we were to analyze it as much as possible and conclude Tacticals are the 'worst' MEQ troop choice out there - so what? They're still really good, overall, in the game. Being the worst of the best, for example, isn't really saying that something isn't good. Not to put words in your mouth - just trying to keep things in perspective.

Point taken, but would you really ever take tacs over scouts? I know I never do, plus chaos marines all have LD9 as standard, as well as bolt pistol, bolter and CCW, giving them 3 attacks each on the charge.
and, as darklink points out, the extra points for the sarge is built into the unit price. The only thing they are good at is sitting on an objective, which scouts with camo/sniper/telion do much better, with the same rules and less points.

But I digress.....

Grey hunters are a superb option compered to the humble tac marine, and hopefully the 6th ed nilla codex will bring him back in line with the fluff a bit more.

[Ebon Hand]

Aren't Grey Hunters considered veterans aka Elites? If that is the case it is an unfair comparison.

[DarkLink]

No, they're standard troops. Just like how any other Space Marine is "elite".

[bforber]

Tac squads would be fine if they could take a fething weapon upgrade in 5 man squads like every other power armor unit in the game. Keep the heavy weapon option for a 10 man squad or allow for 2 special weapons for... you know, -tactical- flexibility.

That's all that really needs to be fixed, seriously.

[andrewm9]

Pretty sure tac squads are univesally accepted as the worst power armoured troop choice in the game, whilst grey hunters are the complete opposite, even chaos space marines have access to better equipment....

No that "honor" falls to Sisters of Battle squads. They fight worse than old Necrons did IMO. Sure they can take 2 special weapons but at T3 they don't have a lot of staying power.

[Xenith]

What would people think of letting tacs have 1special/heavy at 5 men, and 2 special/heavy at 10 men?

10 man tac squads with 2x plasma cannons? Combat squadding? Seems ok to me.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

No that "honor" falls to Sisters of Battle squads. They fight worse than old Necrons did IMO. Sure they can take 2 special weapons but at T3 they don't have a lot of staying power.

Generally you don't want a sista to have too much staying power.;) -Hey Now!

[greendestiny]

:):):):)