GW and 6th considering its competitors

[Wildcard]

Four years ago, games workshop released fifth edition of their scifi tabletop game. Now, at that point I wasn't aware of any other competitor for 40k TT, and I am yet to learn of a noteworthy competitor from that time.

Now as time has passed, through online social media and newsletters and whatnot, we have had the possibility to witness the birth and rise of multiple, seriously taken companies that produce good looking, good quality miniatures and rules with innovation and consistency for playing with them - Something that quite possibly has the potential to threaten enthustiasm over 40k for many players who are not sworn to the universe of 40k in itself.

I've personally made a pact with the Khorne to stay with the skulls, but yet i hear that the greener grass whispers from the other side of the fence..

AT43
Warmachine
DUST Warfare

Couple of the game systems that i've heard that offer way better rules than the GW has been able to provide. And the miniatures can easily compeet with 40k with either pricetag, coolness of the sculpt, or sometimes even both of the mentioned.

-Warmachine: Informed some time ago that they got their own 'super heavies' on the works and rulesets to use them in the normal games.

-AT43: Introduced a shooting mechanism where your change to hit is measured between your skill to use the weapon and difficulty to hit the target (so that you couldn't miss the barn doors if you were standing right in front of them :) )

- Dust Warfare: I am not sure if this yet got its own rules, but the walkers are absolutely gorgoeus.

As said, I have not personally tested any other game system, but that is what i remember reading online / hearing from friends.

That laid out, now that the competition is more fierce than ever, and the next ruleset for 40k could mean more than marginal wins / losses on the sales.

What I would like to hear and discuss with you, is that what GW needs to do with the 6th Ed to remain top dog in the scifi league? Rules, models, policy,not one thing is closed for discuss!

[MaltonNecromancer]

Well, AT-43 went bust, so the competition can't be that good. Evidently people aren't prepared to pay mpre money for pre-painted miniatures...

What does 40K need to do to stay top dog? Based on their last financial review, exactly what they're doing. Seriously, the notion that any other model company/game might present them with the slightest challenge is a joke. Nothing, nothing PP do will make the slightest dent on 40K, because they're small fry. Bigger than they were, for sure. But no matter how good their rules are (and they really are good), they're a distant second.

Hopefully in five to ten years that will have changed, but I severely doubt it. Warmachine's an interesting intellectual property, but lacks... something. I'm not sure what. But there's just something not quite as awesome about it as 40K, at least for me.

And before the Warmahordes fans kick off (all eight of them :p), let me just say: I do like Warmachine and its attendant models.

I just don't think it's quite there yet.

Hopefully.

Probably when they start doing proper plastic kits.

[GrogDaTyrant]

What I would like to hear and discuss with you, is that what GW needs to do with the 6th Ed to remain top dog in the scifi league? Rules, models, policy,not one thing is closed for discuss!

Warhammer 40k's not even the top-dog in it's own sci-fi setting! One only needs to look at Epic to realize that 'most-popular and most widely supported' does not automatically mean it's the best there is.

For 6th to really have an impact in stopping the exodus to other (better) systems, I personally believe GW needs to overhaul the system, and create an intuitive rule-set that doesn't play favorites. Sure GW has the most market-share, but a large amount of that comes from the success it's IP has had in other areas.


Speaking from personal experience though, I'd much prefer to just stick with my "small-fry" systems that are far more engaging to play. Not having to deal with an antiquated 'merry-go-round' release schedule that leaves armies in the previous edition (or 2) for upwards of a decade, is also very nice.

[wittdooley]

Warhammer 40k's not even the top-dog in it's own sci-fi setting! One only needs to look at Epic to realize that 'most-popular and most widely supported' does not automatically mean it's the best there is.

.

Wait wait. So you're claiming that Epic is more popular than 40k?

Well that's downright foolish.

[DrWobbles]

Wait wait. So you're claiming that Epic is more popular than 40k?

Well that's downright foolish.

I think you need to re-read his post. He is implying epic is less popular but nonetheless a better system.

[ChacoStylez]

You forgot to mention Infinity: The Game & Warpath!

[wittdooley]

I think you need to re-read his post. He is implying epic is less popular but nonetheless a better system.

Are you sure? He said "top dog." I tend to think "top dog" means the most popular. I don't think you can make any "best" judgement as it's all subjective.

As someone already said:

AT-43 is dead.

Dust Warfare hasn't even been released (so I dont know how you can put any kind of value judgement to that)

Warmahordes isn't really even the same type of setting. I think it has more tournament friendly, tighter rules, but I'm a bit more a beer and beer gamer, so the rules for 40k suit me just fine most of the time. And oh yeah, Privateer isn't even in GWs rearview in terms of $$.

@Malton - I agree that the WM/H IP is interesting....but they don't do enough with it outside of the army books. Further, you'd have to purchase every army book to get the "full story." They really need to start pushing out some novels, and I think that could be a really nice springboard to growing the IP. Because it's a steampunk setting, I also think their game would be more able to successfully pull of an anime. But as it stands, their IP is woefully underdeveloped as compared to either the 40k or WHFB IP.

[inquisitorsog]

I think you need to re-read his post. He is implying epic is less popular but nonetheless a better system.

40k is there to sell models. Stop.

I've wondered though whether Epic's main failure has to do with the relative lack of hobby with ant sized figures. I've always thought that 15mm-20mm was a better size for war games. 25/28/33mm "heroics are better suited to role playing games. I only got into GW products because I needed some rat men for a long running DnD game and Skaven fit the bill, but that's another story. For war games I always preferred smaller scales so they could be played anywhere. GHQ, BattleTech, and Ogre all have minis in my collection for that reason.

[Wildcard]

My apologies for possibly poor term "Top Dog".. What i meant was GW more or less rules the scene..

Maybe AT43 is dead. No one is yet to say a bad word of its rules tho, only comment was about stupid idea to sell pre-painted minis.

I don't know how long other IPs has been around, but 40k has been since 1987. Thats a long time to lovingly create content and enrich the fluff.. There is no doubt that anyone could by any means easily come close in a time frame of couple of years.

One of the most ruthless enemy to GW could be GW itself.I wont go into arrows and knees, but there is always a possibility to shoot oneself in the leg.. If it comes to that, it doesn't matter if its because of arrogance, bad leadership or too demanding investors..

As far as i've understood, there are lots of gamers that are fed up with 5th ed. And those of you who still like it, can you say you would still love it for the next half a decade, while other games come and go (and those who stay - evolve).

That said, not only other game companies have the possibility of threatening GW with fresh ideas, constantly improving models (via casting techniques, skills in sculpting etc etc..), thus stealing customers and their $$$, but also the GW itself. Giant behemoth as it is, it is going to be nearly impossible to make any "high profile course corrections" between rules editions without making everything before it obsolete.
Mess the 6th ed and face the threat of losing alot (relatively speaking atleast) gamers from the scene totally.

[MaltonNecromancer]

not only other game companies have the possibility of threatening GW with fresh ideas

Like Mantic? :rolleyes:



Mess the 6th ed and face the threat of losing a lot (relatively speaking atleast) gamers from the scene totally.

Meh. You hear this nonsense endlessly. Gamers come, gamers go. You can tell the ones who will never quit, because they're the ones who moan loudest; if they actually meant it, they'd just stop. But they can't, so they crawl online to share their pain.

You've got to remember that the Internet isn't the place where the mainstream hangs out. 40K is played by a small hardcore of adult gamers, and a much larger main audience of 12-16 year old boys, who finally quit when the pull of sexy times with women (and occasionally other men) becomes too great. These guys don't give a damn about rules or quality of game. They just like it because it's darker and edgier than the toys they grew up. They grow out of it, move on, maybe come back to it as older men when they feel the pull of nostalgia strongly enough.

Thus, 6th ed will mean no great loss of gamers. The hardcore will always stay loyal because if they didn't, they wouldn't be the hardcore. They'll moan and make life annoying for anyone who gets within earshot, but they'll never actually quit. And even if they do, hydra-headed, there's always the next one. But the mainstream will drift in and out on the great journey through puberty and onto adulthood, with 6th edition never even being called "6th edition" by them. They'll just call it "40K", because it'll be the only version of the game they ever play.

And that is how it should be.

Any other company wants to step up, good luck to 'em. I don't think for a moment they will have anywhere near the success of 40K. 40K is lightning in a bottle; a one-of-a-kind, like Austin 3:16. By any measure, it shouldn't work, but somehow it does. And it cannot be copied; it's not replicable. Mantic's embarrrassing efforts are obvious to all and sundry as crass cashing in.

And the only reason I know anything about Infinity, or Malifaux, or Warmahordes, is because of 40K. And none of those other games comes close to even touching it. That's just fact. Now, that may change; it would be interesting if it did... but I seriously doubt it will.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I suppose I would be considered one of those die-hards that will probably always stick to Games Workshop, in my opinion there is no system that comes remotely close to Fantasy or 40k.
Warmachine lacks backstory, and a lot of my inspiration comes from stories (being a roleplayer and all that), so I find no real compulsion to move to it.
Sure, I fall out of love with Games Workshop occasionally (call it creative block) but I always end up coming back to it stronger than before.
Dust Tactics/Warfare could be interesting, tank mechs for the win!

As far as Mantic goes, well... I'd prefer if they didn't exist.

[Wildcard]

So, in the end it just comes down to two groups:

First group being the kids that get an army or two, play few years and then choose real life over imaginary, and
second group who consists of those 'die hards' that no matter what, will never abandon 40k?

Seems like the 'die hards' are like married to the ip: Staying together through good and bad times, till death do them apart :)

I like the sound of that.

Yet, if this would be true, GW would be in the spot every single company in the world tries to achieve: No matter what, the customers would stay loyal and keep buying the companys products.

So far you have said that practically there can't be any new trend that would snatch the 40k kids from their hobby and offer them some new gamesystem X

I find it a) a bit optimistic and b) straightforwardly utopistic point of view.

--
For the record: I am 40k enthustiac who reads bedtime storys from lexicanum, and whose wife has declared that "if even one more 'little man' shows up in our house, its either a) my responsibility to buy bigger apartment, or b) gtfo"
:)

Oh, and i would definately grieve like no tomorrow if 40k would take a mortal blow - ever..

[Wildeybeast]

Sorry Wildcard, but I think you have missed the point of GW's business model with your OP. GW started out as model company and only later added rules to go with their cool models and to date it is their models, not the strength of their rules, that keeps the company going. There are a significant number of GW customers who never even play games, they just buy and paint the models. And the rules themselves make up only a small % of GW's sales. Think about it, a codex/army book costs about the same as basic box of troops. You only need one book, but a whole load of boxes of troops. GW doesn't need to do anything to the rules with a focus on keeping people happy, they just need to keep turning out fantastic quality models like they have done in the last 12 months or so. When it comes to models, there may be some other great stuff out there, but no one even comes close to GW in terms of consistency or quantity. Sure the rules are important and changes may lead to them losing customers, but so long as the models keep drawing people in, there will be plenty more to take their place. After all, it's not rulebooks on display in the shop window.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Sorry Wildcard, but I think you have missed the point of GW's business model with your OP. GW started out as model company and only later added rules to go with their cool models and to date it is their models, not the strength of their rules, that keeps the company going. There are a significant number of GW customers who never even play games, they just buy and paint the models. And the rules themselves make up only a small % of GW's sales. Think about it, a codex/army book costs about the same as basic box of troops. You only need one book, but a whole load of boxes of troops. GW doesn't need to do anything to the rules with a focus on keeping people happy, they just need to keep turning out fantastic quality models like they have done in the last 12 months or so. When it comes to models, there may be some other great stuff out there, but no one even comes close to GW in terms of consistency or quantity. Sure the rules are important and changes may lead to them losing customers, but so long as the models keep drawing people in, there will be plenty more to take their place. After all, it's not rulebooks on display in the shop window.

For example; GRIFFON/GRYPHON/GRYFFEN/ETC KNIGHTS, the new Empire range is quite frankly amazing, I must say that my favourite is actually the Witch Hunter.

[Wildeybeast]

I think I could probably count on one hand the number of naff models GW has released i nthe last 12 months and that would include scenery (the Garden of Morr is frankly awesome). That's why GW are currently the industry leader and making healthy profits.

[Wolfshade]

I don't think GW really need to consider their opposition, in the UK at least, IIRC at one point they were claiming that they had a 94% share of the wargamming market.
Furthermore, they have been increasing there sales/profit which would I suggest show an increase in people playing (though, obvious there is extra revenue from licenses to THQ for example, also there are the financially inactive active players).
So really they have to look at themselves and their hobbiests to see where to go and how to develope/improve. Certainly the miniatures are par-excellance and that is what gets people into the game.

[eldargal]

Over the past fifteen years my brothers and I have amassed rules and models from dozens of GW competitors, only PP and to a lesser extent Mantic have survived more than a few years with anymore than a flash in the pan. PP is probably the most successful GW competitor (in a country where GWs presence is far from as pervasive as it is in Britain and Europe) and GW could buy PP with its after tax profits from one year.

So while competition is good and I've no doubt GW does take some notice at some level (Jes Goodwin was reported as mentioning a few companies of model producers he liked at one Games Day or another last year) I also doubt it is anything too significant.

[GrogDaTyrant]

Over the past fifteen years my brothers and I have amassed rules and models from dozens of GW competitors, only PP and to a lesser extent Mantic have survived more than a few years with anymore than a flash in the pan. PP is probably the most successful GW competitor (in a country where GWs presence is far from as pervasive as it is in Britain and Europe) and GW could buy PP with its after tax profits from one year.

One thing to note about PP, is the region it started up in was certainly saturated with GW wargaming. And that region would just happen to be the one I live in... When PP first broke ground (±10yrs ago), GW had 3 stores in the area, one of which was it's regional Battle Bunker. The wargaming scene here has fluctuated over the years, but generally been pretty strong with numerous independent retailers who also sold GW product along with anything else you can imagine. It was morbidly joked among independent store owners to not sell *too much* GW product in a month, or else GW will move a store in next-door and put you out of business.

When Warmachine first went live, it exploded out here and was sold out everywhere for the first several months. GW's profits in this region tanked really hard during that time as well (I should know, I was a redshirt at the time). Their plans to expand upon this area with a 4th store was delayed for several years until individual store growth began to pick up once again. Fast forward to present day, and GW has successfully built numerous new stores in this area, but the majority of them do not have a large group of veteran 'regular' players (exception being the bunker). Indeed most of the local GW stores seem to exist off of new-players, and so there is a constant pressure to recruit amongst the staffers. PP has gained a quite massive following around here, and remains one of the games that newcomers 'graduate into' from their gateway-games. Gabe and/or Tycho from Penny Arcade even frequently play Warmahordes at a particularly successful independent retailer, where some of my friends happen to be employed.

As far as competition goes... I'll be honest, we're spoiled for choices out here. A wargamer only needs to walk into one of the (several) successful non-GW game stores to be bombarded with options. Other than the success of Privateer Press, other game systems with strong followings include Malifaux (Wyrd Miniatures), Infinity (steadily gaining ground), and Flames of War. Flames of War in particular has gathered a sizable player base in my LGS, and was ultimately the game I shifted my focus towards. The latest release of 3rd edition has only improved upon it's solid foundation, as far as rules are concerned. The game itself reminds me a lot of Epic in terms of strategy, and the need to really think about what you're fielding and how to accomplish your objectives.

[eldargal]

Britain has more GW stores or a similar number ,I can't find the figures in the latest financial reports in a vastly smaller area with one sixth the population. What you think of as a GW saturated area is laugable by British standards, no offense intended.:) Just within five miles of me there are half a dozen stockists and going a bit further out three more GW stores and half a dozen more independent stockists. I'm in the country, not a major population centre.

[GrogDaTyrant]

Britain has more GW stores or a similar number ,I can't find the figures in the latest financial reports in a vastly smaller area with one sixth the population. What you think of as a GW saturated area is laugable by British standards, no offense intended.:) Just within five miles of me there are half a dozen stockists and going a bit further out three more GW stores and half a dozen more independent stockists. I'm in the country, not a major population centre.

I'm well aware of that. I've been to Britain, actually. And I'm quite familiar with just how prevalent GW stores are over there.

But that brings me to another point... The Seattle region is mess. It's not the kind of region where you can accurately judge how saturated a market is based upon the number of stores within specified distances. As far as topography goes, this is not an ideal location for an urban area half it's current size. You have large hills separating and compacting the urban sprawl, combined with the web that is the Puget Sound further adding barriers and dividing up the region. Roughly speaking, the population sprawl is around 70+ miles long and roughly 20± miles wide. And all of it rides on the central economic hub that is Seattle, with Tacoma, Redmond, and Bellevue being the secondary hubs. The difference between having 3 niche hobby stores within a 10mile radius, and having 7, is negligible (aside from overhead costs). The population here isn't afraid of driving upwards of 20 to 30mins just to go to a game store. Hell most of them spend 2hrs± a day commuting to and from work. And it's only been in recent years that the mass-transit system has improved at all (and even that's questionable).

3 GW stores across this area, 10 years ago, does not seem like much at all. But these 3 stores were situated in Bellevue, Alderwood, and Auburn. The bunker being the central-most store, was 20 to 25 miles from the other two. Beyond that you had a smattering of independent retailers across the whole region. Each store was catering not only to it's general vicinity, but also to every other city around it. Wizards of the Coast, the creators of Magic:The Gathering, also began in this area and filled every shopping mall with a WoTC store. Each store carried GW products as well, until Hasbro bought them out and closed all the WoTC storefronts. So while there were only 3 actual GW-name stores, there were uncountable independents carrying the product. GW was well known throughout this area.

[Levitas]

6th edition needs to be dramatic and give more scope like it used to in Rogue Trader. The squats must return and reclaim their place as the rulers of the galaxy...

40k just sells models, and thats what GW does well. Awesome plastics, easy to convert. The game is just a delivery system with a wonky sci fi story stapled to it. So until a company truly challenges GW in the model stakes the game wont really be that important to them. Would any self respecting true game company ship a codex like Grey Knights? probably not, but the models are pretty so who cares.

[Wolfshade]

I would have to disagree with Levitas, Rogue Trader was for skirmished based games and had less scope as the rules were cumbersome for any engagement above a couple of squads; do you remember trying to do a large multiple assault?!
To say that rouge trader had more scope than 5th edition does not make sense to me. We have rules that are quite efficient (though some may not agree with the abstractions) and able to handle games from 500pts to 15,000pts+, we now have additional rule sets for city fights, planetary invasion, armoured movements.

[The Plumber]

6th edition needs to be dramatic and give more scope like it used to in Rogue Trader. The squats must return and reclaim their place as the rulers of the galaxy...

40k just sells models, and thats what GW does well. Awesome plastics, easy to convert. The game is just a delivery system with a wonky sci fi story stapled to it. So until a company truly challenges GW in the model stakes the game wont really be that important to them. Would any self respecting true game company ship a codex like Grey Knights? probably not, but the models are pretty so who cares.

I also have to disagree with levitas here, concerning the 'wonky' sci-fi story. The only other sci-fi franchise that has close to as much well written fluff is star trek?

I do have to agree with him about the grey knights codex though, I think Ward ate too many blue smarties when he wrote that cow pat of a book......

[Charistoph]

Yeah, GW pretty much has a lock on the scale that 40K and Fantasy operate with now. With a couple of exceptions, everyone else is propagating skirmish games on the level of Mordheim and Necromunda, and those few who are clocking for GWs scale are mostly feeding models into their game systems, for now. The only other angle I see people taking a shot at GW with is Spartan Games hitting them through their Epic/Fleet games (and model-wise doing a good job).

I know there was a rumor a while back that PP was looking at doing a Sci-Fi game, but that was some time ago, and nothing since.

But until a company is ready and willing to dedicate themselves to more than skirmish games, I doubt that GW is in real danger.

[mysterex]

Warmachine's an interesting intellectual property, but lacks... something. I'm not sure what. But there's just something not quite as awesome about it as 40K, at least for me.


I've never played Warmachine but it's all but replaced 40K locally for sci-fi gaming. I turned up to our local gaming club last weekend and had the first 40k game held there so far this year. Three or four years ago 70 to 80% of the games going on were 40k.

At the moment the top games locally seem to be Flames of War, Warhammer Fantasy and Warmachine in that order. A few years ago none of them had much of an impact.

[mikethefish]

Like Mantic? :rolleyes

To be honest, providing affordable plastic miniatures IS a fresh idea.

[Harmonious Borealis]

But that brings me to another point... The Seattle region is mess. It's not the kind of region where you can accurately judge how saturated a market is based upon the number of stores within specified distances. As far as topography goes, this is not an ideal location for an urban area half it's current size. You have large hills separating and compacting the urban sprawl, combined with the web that is the Puget Sound further adding barriers and dividing up the region. Roughly speaking, the population sprawl is around 70+ miles long and roughly 20± miles wide. And all of it rides on the central economic hub that is Seattle, with Tacoma, Redmond, and Bellevue being the secondary hubs. The difference between having 3 niche hobby stores within a 10mile radius, and having 7, is negligible (aside from overhead costs). The population here isn't afraid of driving upwards of 20 to 30mins just to go to a game store. Hell most of them spend 2hrs± a day commuting to and from work. And it's only been in recent years that the mass-transit system has improved at all (and even that's questionable).

3 GW stores across this area, 10 years ago, does not seem like much at all. But these 3 stores were situated in Bellevue, Alderwood, and Auburn. The bunker being the central-most store, was 20 to 25 miles from the other two. Beyond that you had a smattering of independent retailers across the whole region. Each store was catering not only to it's general vicinity, but also to every other city around it. Wizards of the Coast, the creators of Magic:The Gathering, also began in this area and filled every shopping mall with a WoTC store. Each store carried GW products as well, until Hasbro bought them out and closed all the WoTC storefronts. So while there were only 3 actual GW-name stores, there were uncountable independents carrying the product. GW was well known throughout this area.

Ever skipped a bit north to the Greater Vancouver area, in BC, Canada? You managed to describe it perfectly, sans the WotC-specific references. I wasn't in the industry then, so I wouldn't know about that.

In the last 5 years, we've gone from 4 GW stores, down to 1, back up to 2. But us independents have remained stable. In fact, the independents gain business when GW stores close, AND GW doesn't have to pay our rent ;)

That being said, once we got Warmachine in, I've been selling more of that to new players. Why? The skirmish format seems to be more accessible to brand-new gamers, and the price point more attractive. As for what playing has been going on? Easier to haul around a skirmish number of models than an army if you haven't arranged a game ahead of time. And today, many people don't arrange stuff ahead of time.

I think, whatever the rules changes, there needs to be some kind of beginner box with simplified rules, possibly at a lower price point. I don't think the game should go skirmish; Warhammer is an army game. I think that it needs to be more accessible. The 2-player box format is a hindrance for a single new player trying to join an established playerbase, and throwing the full rules at two lone beginning players with no experienced player to help them through can be a frustrating way to learn, especially for generation ADD (no offence is intended to those who suffer from ADHD).


This isn't the easy way to go. I do think that it fits with their goals of selling product and encouraging future purchases. More opponents generally benefit the players too.

[L192837465]

I think, whatever the rules changes, there needs to be some kind of beginner box with simplified rules, possibly at a lower price point. I don't think the game should go skirmish; Warhammer is an army game. I think that it needs to be more accessible. The 2-player box format is a hindrance for a single new player trying to join an established playerbase, and throwing the full rules at two lone beginning players with no experienced player to help them through can be a frustrating way to learn, especially for generation ADD (no offence is intended to those who suffer from ADHD).




More to the point, the starter boxes should each contain a mini rulebook and all be equivalent points for the same cost and be legal playable armies straight out.

[Goochman]

Well I've seen the game evolve since back in 87. I have played all the eds., I got I guess one hell of OOP figures, books, novels, etc....I even was a red shirt.
All I have to say is that I'm very exited to see what the new ed is going to bring.
The only mistake I have to say to GW is the change of a lot of models to Finecast, I think is a waste of time and product.
Besides that, I really hope evolves to a more Apocalyptic view and like always stay King of the Hill.

[el_pablo65]

They really need to start pushing out some novels, and I think that could be a really nice springboard to growing the IP.

This is what I think the competition needs to concentrate on. If we don't care about the story and the characters/races then we will not invest heavily in the game. And I mean emotional investment as much as financial.

[inquisitorsog]

Yeah, GW pretty much has a lock on the scale that 40K and Fantasy operate with now. With a couple of exceptions, everyone else is propagating skirmish games on the level of Mordheim and Necromunda, and those few who are clocking for GWs scale are mostly feeding models into their game systems, for now. The only other angle I see people taking a shot at GW with is Spartan Games hitting them through their Epic/Fleet games (and model-wise doing a good job).

I know there was a rumor a while back that PP was looking at doing a Sci-Fi game, but that was some time ago, and nothing since.

But until a company is ready and willing to dedicate themselves to more than skirmish games, I doubt that GW is in real danger.

The problem is that 28mm Heroic scale doesn't really work for anything beyond "skirmish" (squad or platoon) scale. It's a horrible scale for company sized conflicts as a 4'x6' board is pretty much required. You can't play on a typical kitchen table with a typical tournament army. How many people can actually play in their home at all? FoW is 15mm partly for that reason. 28mm is a hobbyist and role player scale, not a large unit wargame scale. I can't take a new system seriously for anything other than skirmish games unless they're coming in at 15mm or 20mm for anything higher tech than the civil war.

Let's not forget that we _can_ separate the game from the models. If the game is just as good played with paper stand ups as with lovingly tended to models, then I say it's worth playing. Otherwise, you're just using it as a showcase for your hobby.

[Charistoph]

The problem is that 28mm Heroic scale doesn't really work for anything beyond "skirmish" (squad or platoon) scale. It's a horrible scale for company sized conflicts as a 4'x6' board is pretty much required. You can't play on a typical kitchen table with a typical tournament army. How many people can actually play in their home at all? FoW is 15mm partly for that reason. 28mm is a hobbyist and role player scale, not a large unit wargame scale. I can't take a new system seriously for anything other than skirmish games unless they're coming in at 15mm or 20mm for anything higher tech than the civil war.

Let's not forget that we _can_ separate the game from the models. If the game is just as good played with paper stand ups as with lovingly tended to models, then I say it's worth playing. Otherwise, you're just using it as a showcase for your hobby.

Not saying otherwise, but the level of play that 40K plays at requires either a significant investment of resources to build up to. For example, take how many models a normal Codex: Space Marine army brings in an 1850 list. Now consider how much it would cost to build that same number of models with a Warmachine army compared to the cost incurred creating the Space Marine army. It would be similar to creating a similar-sized Sisters of Battle army (and for the same reason).

We should also remember that Rogue Trader started in similar sizes way back when. When Warmachine reaches 25 years it wouldn't surprise me to find that they've been able to increase the capacity of the game to handle a similar level of conflict as low level 40K games are today. If nothing else, so they can maintain themselves as a company. And there converting things to plastic sure seems to indicate their view of the future.

[Dyrnwyn]

More to the point, the starter boxes should each contain a mini rulebook and all be equivalent points for the same cost and be legal playable armies straight out.
This, so much this. Black Reach is an incredible value, but it means you MUST buy in with a friend, and in order to get two rulebooks, you have to buy two sets - and the forces in the boxes are not equal in points, or entirely legal. Plus, it only has two armies to choose from. I had a friend who picked up Warmachine over 40k purely on the basis of the starter box - he liked Khador and he liked Grey Knights. There's no starter box for Grey Knights, and faced with spending $200+ or $50, he dropped any plans for Grey Knights.

A box set that includes an HQ and 2 Troops, plus enough other models to get the force to 500 points, along with a mini-rulebook/rules for only the models contained in the box ought to be available for at least half the factions in the game, with a price-point of $75-90.


Not saying otherwise, but the level of play that 40K plays at requires either a significant investment of resources to build up to. For example, take how many models a normal Codex: Space Marine army brings in an 1850 list. Now consider how much it would cost to build that same number of models with a Warmachine army compared to the cost incurred creating the Space Marine army. It would be similar to creating a similar-sized Sisters of Battle army (and for the same reason).

We should also remember that Rogue Trader started in similar sizes way back when. When Warmachine reaches 25 years it wouldn't surprise me to find that they've been able to increase the capacity of the game to handle a similar level of conflict as low level 40K games are today. If nothing else, so they can maintain themselves as a company. And there converting things to plastic sure seems to indicate their view of the future.

I depends how they expand - they may introduce more models with stranger abilities, ala Magic, or they may go the way of 40k and up the size of a game. If they do the latter, they'll have to put out a new edition though - the MK.II ruleset doesn't handle large games very well due to each model behaving mostly independently. I know they put out rules for 150+ point games, but they're as unpleasant to play as Apocalypse games, probably more so, as Unbound doesn't add anything on the level of Destroyer weapons that can just pull multiple squads off the table. anything over 50 points in WM/H is pretty slow and clunky right now.

[Charistoph]

This, so much this. Black Reach is an incredible value, but it means you MUST buy in with a friend, and in order to get two rulebooks, you have to buy two sets - and the forces in the boxes are not equal in points, or entirely legal. Plus, it only has two armies to choose from. I had a friend who picked up Warmachine over 40k purely on the basis of the starter box - he liked Khador and he liked Grey Knights. There's no starter box for Grey Knights, and faced with spending $200+ or $50, he dropped any plans for Grey Knights.

A box set that includes an HQ and 2 Troops, plus enough other models to get the force to $500, along with a mini-rulebook/rules for only the models contained in the box ought to be available for at least half the factions in the game, with a price-point of $75-90.

No argument here, except, I think you meant 500 POINTS, not dollars. :D


I depends how they expand - they may introduce more models with stranger abilities, ala Magic, or they may go the way of 40k and up the size of a game. If they do the latter, they'll have to put out a new edition though - the MK.II ruleset doesn't handle large games very well due to each model behaving mostly independently. I know they put out rules for 150+ point games, but they're as unpleasant to play as Apocalypse games, probably more so, as Unbound doesn't add anything on the level of Destroyer weapons that can just pull multiple squads off the table. anything over 50 points in WM/H is pretty slow and clunky right now.

True, true. All I was saying is that it wouldn't surprise me if they did, not that they will or would. A lot depends on how the company is structured at the time and how dedicated they are to using plastic for units.

Of course, they could just start a new game from scratch designed and dedicated to being a 40K buster before then. They have the talent now to do so, whether they are willing to take the massive risk in resources, is another story.

[Dyrnwyn]

No argument here, except, I think you meant 500 POINTS, not dollars. :D
Indeed I did! Nice catch there - fixed.




True, true. All I was saying is that it wouldn't surprise me if they did, not that they will or would. A lot depends on how the company is structured at the time and how dedicated they are to using plastic for units.

Of course, they could just start a new game from scratch designed and dedicated to being a 40K buster before then. They have the talent now to do so, whether they are willing to take the massive risk in resources, is another story.
Plastic is a cheaper material - especially for small unit runs like PP uses in WM/H. I fully expect that it will eventually replace all the figs in the line - but after seeing the Finecast debacle, I'm sure the folks at PP are both wary and careful about making that switch.

I don't think they particularly need to make a 40k-buster. They were a distant second place behind GW in terms of popularity, and GW's missteps have allowed them to close the gap considerably. Trying to make a 40k-buster is as shortsighted as making a WoW-killer MMO - it closes off attempts to make the best game system possible while locking yourself into tunnel vision on what aspects you want to have/not-have. You end up with a product that is very similar because you took the base system and 'fixed' it. But you still have the problem of the people you are enticing with similar mechanics already have an investment in the old system, and you offer nothing new - so it's harder to pull them away or keep them from switching back.

Honestly, I enjoy the current environment, with a bunch of new skirmish games with significant followings. They all offer different systems and feels. Oddly, with all the other games also encroaching on GW's territory, I think GW is in the same position as the Imperium - still the strongest group on the block, but losing ground on all fronts, remaining powerful because of their wide support base and resources rather than innate superiority. Unlike the Imperium, GW can still improve it's position, but we'll see what happens when 6th hits.

[MrGiggles]

For my part, my group and I periodically look at other stuff. Somehow, we keep coming back to 40K. While I like to paint a variety of things, not everyone does. We're pretty spread out and we manage to get together five or six times annually. Most of us have sizable 40K armies, both painted and in progress. It's just not a recipe for switching systems.

As to 6th Ed, I expect the release will be pretty standard. I'll like some things, dislike others and for the most part, have to play a few games to really get it.