Reduced dominance of cannon - more viable builds?

[eldargal]

Someone on Warseer raised an interesting point about the Empire artillery re-balance (I hate the term nerf in cases where such things are needed), that it may help make monsters more viable.

The changes to empire artillery are:
20% increase in the price of cannons
33% increase in the price of mortars an a drop to S2 (largely irrelvent as it is cannon that post the threat to monsters)
Engineers can choose one warmacine at the start of the shooting phase and lend his BS to it and/or re-roll an artillery dice. So no more three sniper cannons with an engineer beside them to re-roll any and all misfires.

So what this means is that cannons will be more expensive, fewer in number and won't be quite so immune to misfires. Detachments for Greatswords now also count as Special, so cannon are also competing against stubborn detachments for army composition.

The question is, will this help make large monsters more viable, especially if Dwarf cannons are brought to the same level when they get their next book? Ditto for any other currently OP artillery.

[Wildeybeast]

Firstly, I'd like to corrrect you on the engineer ability, if I may. The FAQ has had for quite some time that he can only use his ability on one warmachine, so that is nothing new.

Secondly, I don't think cannons needed nerfing (and I'm going to use that term because I don't think it was needed). They are OP against older armies yes, but the 8th ed armies have all had 8 wound models, specifically to avoid destruction by cannon in a single turn. In the case of OK they have one that halves multi wound rolls (I forgot which) and the Hellpit has a regen save which has 50/50 chance of ignoring your cannonball altogether. With monsters being increased in power (no doubt to boost SoM sales), it seems unfair to then increase the cost of cannons. I already think monsters are perfectly viable (though not game winners as discussed elsewhere). As for mortars, they are invaluable against horde armies. Skaven are horrific to play against at low points costs and mortars are one ofthe few things that gives you a fighting chance. At 1000 pts, a Skaven army can out number empire 2-1, out magic you with more wizards and take a hellpit for good measure. There is little you can do against that as it is, without mortars being nerfed. Whilst I agree with armies being bought into line with each other and the current ed, some consideration needs to be given about how those armies play against the older books that in some cases won't be updated for a couple of years. Other than warrior priests, the empire book was not OP (and they only needed a points increase) and it certainly did not need nerfing in the way some others do.
But then that's just my biased viewpoint, others are certainly available!

[eldargal]

Yes but not everyone uses the FAQ (lot of people are unaware, many of those who are don't see the need to use GW houserules etc).

Plus the limit of one isn't the main factor, he now has to choose which cannon BEFORE it misfires. So if you have three cannon you have to pick one, and if that one doesn't misfire and another does too bad.

Cannon weren't really nerfed, but a 20% increase on something that does D6 S10 wounds without really having to worry about hitting isn't a nerf in my opinion. It needed it. The mortar needed either an increase or a strength drop and inexplicably got both.

[Cherub]

Im not to sure it will, at least in my area. Local meta has a lot of Ogre players with those move and shoot cannons of theirs. Those things do a fair bit of damage to monsters, enough anyway that if they do make it to combat it become pretty easy to take them down in cc. Though it does come to another point. Monsters are very good at soaking up fire that could be hitting more important units in your army.

[eldargal]

Fair point, obviously local metal which have a significant impact. Our group only has one full-time OK player and another two who dabble.

[Cherub]

Though I will say if you are not prepared for monsters they are a frigging pain in the butt. My club did our yearly travel for a tourny and just about every army from that area had a dragon in it. To be honest I would like to see a slight increase in the power of monsters to make them more on par with a regiment of troops.

[Wildeybeast]

Yes but not everyone uses the FAQ (lot of people are unaware, many of those who are don't see the need to use GW houserules etc).

Plus the limit of one isn't the main factor, he now has to choose which cannon BEFORE it misfires. So if you have three cannon you have to pick one, and if that one doesn't misfire and another does too bad.

Cannon weren't really nerfed, but a 20% increase on something that does D6 S10 wounds without really having to worry about hitting isn't a nerf in my opinion. It needed it. The mortar needed either an increase or a strength drop and inexplicably got both.

Wow, he has to pick one before it fires!? Man, engineers just went from awesome to bloody useless. If you want to use them to counteract misfires you need one for every war machine, which is stupid unless you are running a full on gunline. And adding the BS to the wamachine will only be of any use to the Hellblaster and I don't know of anyone who uses those since you had to roll to hit with them.

[eldargal]

Yup, engineers nerfed, mortars nerfed, flagellants nerfed. But, does it add to the survivability of monsters?;) I don't consider cannons having been erfed myself, they are still S10 D6 wound snieprs of death. They just aren't the be all and end all of Empire lists anymore.

[Wildeybeast]

I don't think it will make much difference to the survivabilty of monsters. They are still going to attract a lot of fire (a couple of turns of BS4 shooting will take wounds off any monster, with 6's to wound) and they will still get chopped up by large infantry blocks with great weapons. Like characters, they will do a lot of damage, but they won't last long unless they are supported. Personally I view them as cannon fodder in the sense that whilst they are being shot at/electrocuted/magiked the rest of your infantry isn't and that is what wil win you the game.

[eldargal]

True but there should be fewer sniper cannon batteries taking down a monster on turn one or two, now. they may still attract torrents of fire but less of that fire will be S10 D6 wounds auto-hitting with no misfires stopping them shooting the next turn/possibly blowing up. I've actually seen more monsters more recently (since 8th) inspite of internet wisdom and I do wonder if a reduction in the number of cannon and their effectiveness in the meta may not boost the numbers still.

[KriegXXIX]

The Engineer is probably worth it when attached to a Helblaster Volley Gun. Those weapons got a lot better in the new book and I am probably going to run 1-2 of them from here on out. They will probably help out against monsters too. The nerf I am really surprised with is the Helstorm. I didn't think that many people ran it before. I did b/c the s5 was worth it, but I will be honest as the number of times it hits is rather low.

[T-ORK-amada]

I think that it will increase the use of large monsters for some armies. If you can bring 3 to 4 large monsters to bear, then you will most likely do so now because now Empire (and possibly Dwarves) will not be able to fire with impunity, particularly with the Engineer being rebalanced. If you can field only 1 or 2, then you probably wouldn't because they are still threatened by only having a couple cannons. The mortar on the other hand, will still see play, particularly combined with a Wizard with Shadow. Since the empire characters are still rather inexpensive and can field multiple wizards as well as other characters, I wouldn't be surprised to see it pop up. I think the biggest threat to monsters is still the steamtank/Lore of Life combo. Most monsters will still have a hard time with it and being able to heal the tank AND with the new way of generating steam points, the tank is still usable after taking a few hits.

[Wildeybeast]

The more I think about it, the more i think the Luminark of Hysh will negate the lack of cannons. For exactly the same points cost as a cannon, you get a S8, flaming magic missile bolt thrower. Whilst it can obviously be dispelled, it will auto hit and won;t misfire which I think is a more than adequate trade off, especially when it lets your wizard lord ride around in safety and gives everything in 6" a 6++. GW has deliberately neutered cannons to force empire players to be more agressive, tatical and mobile (poor poor dwarves) but they have still given us plenty of monster killers (don't forget all those S5/6 troops wandering around and you have access to 4 Runefangs), so I'm not sure monsters are a whole lot more survivable, just a bit.

[eldargal]

I'm actually thinking taking a couple of monsters in my Witch Elf heavy list might be good. Who do you shoot at, the hydras or the 80 angry, violent hoes charging at you with a zillion armour piercing, poisoned attacks backed by a cauldron of blood.

Also for the same price as a Luminark, a cannon does D6 S10 hits instead of D3 S8 so I'm not sure it will be replacing it in a hurry. Used in addition to, perhaps.:) I'm also renaming the Luminark to 'von Winckelmanns Exceedingly Nifty Lens Based Apparatus for the Expeditious and Efficatious Extermination of the Enemies of Sigmar's Glorious Empire, patent pending'.

[T-ORK-amada]

The Luminarck is good but is a target in itself. Sure it can stay in the back, but then falls pray to ambushers such as forgers and miners. I think the days of the empire gunline are coming to a close. Units are too big to be broken by handgunners anymore. And units small enough to be hurt are usually immune to psych or such things. The strength in eighth is hordes and large troop blocks and the new combat rules. Those are the reasons some monsters are no longer viable. Hitting a unit and doing 6 attacks will no longer mean no attacks back. Monsters have a roll and that is to absorb firepower. People still fear them because of what they were, not what they are.

[eldargal]

I'm not so sure, it is true a monster can't autowin a combat anymore but charge one into the flanks of a regiment in combat and it can do a lot of damage, often for less points than an equivalent cavalry unit. So they draw away fire from other targets and can assist said targets in combat.

[T-ORK-amada]

I think it truely depends on the monster. Hydras are SUPER good. Giants, however, not so much. It depends on utilit. Giants are only good for combat where a cygor is a stonethrower and mage deterrent. A heirotitan is a buff to magic, a sphinx is a hard roadblock and a bone giant is a waste of points.

[Wildeybeast]

So, I tried out my new Empire army list yesterday, including KF on DC and the experience with him summed up prefectly for me just how survivable monsters are. KF flew around smashing to pieces a Warpshinx, Casket of Souls, and two screaming skull catapults before getting ambushed by a horde of Tomb Guard and getting hacked to pieces. Whilst monsters are going to attract less cannon fire by virtue of there being less cannons, they are still just as vulnerable to big units of infantry unless supported by big units of infantry.

[Surendil]

I'm actually thinking taking a couple of monsters in my Witch Elf heavy list might be good. Who do you shoot at, the hydras or the 80 angry, violent hoes charging at you with a zillion armour piercing, poisoned attacks backed by a cauldron of blood.


I'd shoot the cauldron :P And after it, the hydras. How many witches would a cannon kill? 3? 4? (even without a 5++ from the cauldron).