Nid Swarm VS Bike elite

[daboarder]

Hey guys need a hand. I've got a game with my nids against an all bike marine army tomorrow and I need some advice as I've never played a bike list with my nids.

Mates list looks something like this.

List is
Captain
Relic blade
Storm shield
Bike

Libby
Avenger, null zone
Bike

Command squad
5 Bikes
4 storm shields
3 lightning claws
2 plasma guns
1 thunder hammer
and a partrige on a pair tree

3x bike squads
2x melta gun
Multi melta
Power fist
Full squad 8+ attack bike

3x attack bike squads
2x attack bikes
2x multi meltas

(he will probably also run a techmarine on bike to bolster his home objective)

Now I don't want to tailor my list but I'm not sure which of the two varients bellow will work better.
First one operates on the proviso that he has no real template weapons and if he wants to shoot at my big guys with melta he wont be shooting bolters at the little guys and vice-verse. iut also operates on the concept of force multiplying and turning those gaunts into some fierce little *******s by giving them the right buffs.

Tyrant:
Wings
LW+BS
ST
Parox
Leach

Tyrant
Old Ad
HVC
LW+BS
Parox
Psych Scream

elites:
2x Zoans
2x Zoans

Troops:

15x Terms

Tervigon
catalyst
clusters
toxin

15x Terms

Tervigon
catalyst
clusters
toxin

20x Horms
Toxin

20x Horms
Toxin

Fast attack:

10x Gargoyles
Toxin

Heavy support:

Trygon

Trygon

All up thats 2k points 80+ guants and 32 T6 wounds, seems pretty solid to me especially against an infantry list, mostly I'm only really worried about the command squad as everything else should die just like marines to poison or S6.

So any thoughts?

I could drop down to 60 or so gaunts and take the doom as a distraction/counter Deathstar but I don't think it will be needed here.

[St.Germaine]

I've been playing Nids almost as long as I've been playing my Sunhawks. I'm currently playing a bike army (WS but not white) and have found what I suspect your friend will find out. A bike army is really at a disadvantage against a horde army. And having said that, this list is at even more of a disadvantage (I know, it's very similar to what I started out with.) Melta city is really nice for killing vehicles but he'd be far better off with flamers and HBs on the bike squads to get more shooty down-range. After the battle, let him know he might want to consider Typhoons instead of the AB squads.

You have lots more models on the table than he does. Tying up his bike squads and making him make lots of saves will make them evaporate fairly quickly. If he's smart, he try to be the Indians from 1950's Western with his bike squads - circle the edge of your forces and pump bolters into you without getting into CC. On the other hand he will try to get that command squad into Assault because it's hellish. 3++ save plus FNP makes for a very durable unit. 3xLC, PW, TH plus the captain's relic blade makes a unit that will carve up your units if they can get you in CC. You want to shoot this unit, shoot it again, and then shoot it some more. 3++ save on T5 means that's what it will take. The rest of the army is bit more fragile.

Personally I'd like to see some genestealers to counter-attack the command squad because they'd have a better chance to do some damage before they die.

Basically pretty straightforward - shoot the nasty stuff and keep shooting till it's dead and then shoot it some more to make sure. ;) Everything else - close on it, tie it up, and make it make lots of saves. Keep pumping expendable bodies into the mix to make him keep making saves.

[thecactusman17]

The Termagaunts/Tervigons are going to get you killed, but thankfully you put Toxin Sacs on the Hormagaunts and Gargoyles, which mean that his bikes are going to be terrified of you. Use the Termagaunts to screen your Hormagaunts until the last possible moment with a cover save. Don't be afraid of losing Termagaunts even in a killpoints mission, they are already dead if he even glances at them. No matter what else you do, be absolutely certain at all times that he cannot multicharge the termagaunts and anything else, or he will destroy it thanks to No Retreat wounds no matter how thoroughly you beat him otherwise (unless by some miracle you wipe the squad, that is).

Wrapping your precious Tervigons in a bubble wrap of Hormagaunts is an easy way to ensure that he cannpt assault the big bug and wipe out several units simultaneously.

The Zoanthropes are good options for killing the Attack Bikes, thanks to their ability to instant-death them. Drop them as far away from the Libby as you can manage while still being in range of the targets.

The Gargoyles are probably best employed against the Honor Guard. Not only do they have Toxin Sacs, but also they can instant-death anything they encounter over there and thus ignore FNP if he springs for an Apothocary (or perhaps I'm thinking Honor Guard?)

Don't forget--NEITHER of you can climb multi-story terrain with your beasts and bikes. This gives the Gargoyles and Zoanthropes safe deployment and perhaps movement options for avoiding the assault.

[DarkLink]

Genestealers are awesome against exposed infantry, and ymgarl genestealers even moreso.

[daboarder]

cheers for the replies guys,

The worst thing he could do to me I agree is pick me off at continous range for a couple of turns before closing for the kill. Thats why I decided on numbers of tozin gaunts over the stealers, I figure they'd just get bolter tapped to death.

I had forgotten bikes cant climb....funny thing is that EVERYTHING in my list can, say yay to gaunts in cover on top of spires, he's going to hate that.

Out of curiosity why do you think my big termagant broods and tervigons are a liability, with FNP, Counter attack, OA and toxin they make a very effective charge deterrent and the fact that I will run them in front of my horm's will force him to close with me if he wants to do damage.

My biggest liabilities that I can see are those multi-melta's they are going to reap havoc on m MC's but I plan to play rather aggressively with my zoanthropes and force him to choose between shooting at MC's behind the swarm or Zoans at the front. given relative ranges he should get one turn of fire before I can return the favour or swarm him with gaunts. if he however decides to charge my Zoans, so be it. They are not crucial against his list and I'd be willing to sacrifice them to guarantee swamping him with gaunts in my turn.

The flyrant and Garg's usually take up a nice flanking position to swing wide on the table and then deliver a killer punch around turn 2/3. I find this tends to prevent people from effectively pulling a re-deployed refuse flank on me. However I'm thinking it might be better to keep them deep backfield and use them to plug wholes in my line. also 2 paroxysims a turn is one of the nastiest things we can do.

edit: I also figure that my gaunt broods wil be scattered enough to force him to either concentrate his force or give me cover saves against his bolt guns.

Another otion is to drop the walking tyrant and grab a prime with LW+BS, Deathspitter and a squad of 4 deathspitter/VC armed warriors to deter him from sitting at 24 and and tapping away, I figured it was to fragile to the melta's and while a Tryant without guard is just as vulnerable at least it is a bigger force multiplier.

[thecactusman17]

I think the terms are a liability because all he has to do is close with a unit of terms and a big squishy target, then beat you rapidly in combat res. Your termagaunts and the necessary Synapse web spread throughout your army means that you need to keep big, tough units near your little gribblies which have been designed to die in droves. This means that you can and will quickly have problems with extreme combat resolution. I've personally caused 17 wounds per unit to about a dozen enemy tyranid units, almost all of them multiwound creatures, because the poor guy left a big brood of gaunts near a linked combat involving several different units. Couldn't do jack to all his monsters, but when he couldn't do anything back to my Wyches, the hellions went in and mowed down about 20 wounds with a single one tagging the back of a bonesword warrior in the combat. Poor things never had a chance.

[daboarder]

but to close with a unit and multi-charge he has to have the charge range to get around a big unit of termagants and into a tervigon that is going to be either wrapped by horm's of be deployed at the end of a gant congo line, not easy to do with a 6' charge range. I don't ever intend to get my terv's in combat unless I have overwhelming superiority.

basically the terv's turn those Gants into real meat grinder units, they end up hitting at the same time with 2 attacks, hitting on 4's with re-roll's, wounding on 4's and in return I only loose half their number to the attacks back due to FNP, offensively they are better than their equivalent in Assault marines.

[daboarder]

Well that went as bad as I feared.

The list was slightly different in that he had no libby and 3 auto/las preds

rolled up spearhead/killpoints
I had first turn

unfortunately he used his speed to just blaze through the terrain and ensure that I couldn't get the charge on his command squad, that combined with the HUGE bases on the command squad allowed him multi charge and thereby chrush my horms with 38 of them failing to do anything despite 20 having Old ad and FNP

command crushed my center, crushed a flank with only the lost of his captain to a trygon.

all that seemed to happen was my guant broods would hold on just long enough for him to be safe from shooting and paroxysim before chrushing me again on the charge.

game ended 10KP to 6

MVP for me goes to the zoans, clocking in at 3 shooting phases with 3 tanks dead, god their mean.

next time I think I will try to ensure I can charge that command squad with 2 trygons and ensure the hurt.

Read more: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Tactics&thread=38176&page=1#ixzz1r3MtPr66