Triarch Praetorians?

[ElectricPaladin]

As you may know from my other thread, I'm teaching a kid - the Necrotike, I call him, on account of him choosing Necrons - to play 40k. So far, so good: he's painted his first models and they look pretty good, for first attempts and he's beaten me once.

Anyway, the thing is that the Necrotike is really into Triarch Praetorians, which seem to be a dedicated melee Deep Striking unit. He seems to like them for their ability to Deep Strike into the middle of his opponent's formation and disrupt his battle plans. Unlike some Deep Striking units, Praetorians seem to have the toughness and the comes-back-to-life-ness to actually survive this strategy. The thing is, they seem to be widely considered crap.

I've got to admit that while they do a pretty good job of disrupting my plans, they don't seem to win the Necrotike any games. The usual sequence is: the Praetorians Deep Strike, light up a nearby unit, take a round of shooting and lose a man or two, and then charge into combat. Even against my Tau, however, they aren't usually able to take out my dudes fast enough to be worth their points. So far, in one game they killed my broadsides before getting bogged down in a lengthy combat with my Kroot, and in another they killed two Fire Warriors, who broke and ran but didn't get caught in a sweeping advance (thanks to low Necron Initiative) then turned and rapid-fired the bejeesus out of the Praetorians, killing them.

Is it true that the Triarch Praetorians are crap? Is the Necrotike barking up the wrong tree? Or is there a way to use them that will work?

[Mephiston69]

I don't think it's so much that Triarch Praetorians are crap (although I would say they are subpar) it's more so that there are better choices with the Necron elites...such as the Triarch Stalker
As for the Praetorians, my problem with them is that I'm paying terminator prices (200pts) and getting below-terminator results. As in for 200 pts that gets me a 3+ save I2 "melee" unit...a good assault unit doesnt have I2, It'd be better if they had I4 because now just about everything hits them before they can even hit back. And the 3+ save is meh, the T5 helps slightly better
But if he insists on running them I'd say to him to kit them out with the particle casters and voidblades rather rod of the covenent.

[Mephiston69]

If I may enquire, what is his list?

[ElectricPaladin]

If I may enquire, what is his list?

We're still playing truly tiny games. Putting together pretty much everything he owns, he has:

HQ
* Necron Overlord (usually a Phaeron) with a rotating cast of upgrades

Elites
* 5 Triarch Praetorians w/Void Blades and Particle Pistols

Troops
* Minimum Necron Warriors
* Minimum Necron Warriors

Fast Attack
* 3 Tank-Eating Scarabs Bases

[Nachodragon]

I would say to have him play with the Rod of covenant instead. While it does take it down to 1A base attack, it allows for him to shoot an ap2 shot before assaulting, which will require invul saves to counter, and also all of the attacks are power weapon attacks.

Since jump infantry can only still assault 6" the 12" range of the pistol is wasted. The Pistols are ap5 so almost anything will get their armor save. The voidblades are also not very good. While they seem good, they are not. The entropic strike is misplaced and will rarely come into play. The rending can be good, but you have to roll a 6.

A really simple way to look at it is this, grab 10 dice and roll to hit 10 times and then roll to wound with those hits. How many rending attacks did you have?

Now, take 5 dice and roll 10 times to hit and 10 times to wound? How many times did you wound/kill something (ignoring invul saves for the moment).

Unless you have really lucky dice (or really cursed) You will kill more with the rod of covenants. Because anything you attack needs to have an invul save and you will have softened them up first with some ap2 shooting.

Edit: I have really debated using them but cannot justify it to myself, but I really want to. Those 200 points are too precious and can get so many better options.

[MrGiggles]

I'm rather with Mephiston. I think the Praetorians are alright, but definitely not optimal.

I've sort of equated them to the Necron version of Swooping Hawks in that they've things that could be quite good at a few different jobs, but the combination is just odd. The models look good and they can do some interesting things. I'm just scratching my head on how best to use them.

[Mephiston69]

Nacho makes a good point but personally I'd disagree and go with the Void Blade option granted I'd say don't even take the Praetorians in the first place.
The rod of the covenent makes the Praetorians big and scary if they get close, which is a curse because a good chunk of the army will focus on taking out this unit with AP2 weapons. At least with the particle casters you upgrade this units threat range to 24" (12" jump range plus the pistols 12" range) as well as making them an option for suppressing light armor(i.e. transports) with their S6 pistols.
On the issue of entropic strike: I totally agree with you Nachodragon and very rarely will it ever be used but it is there; also I think the pistols here are the only useful wargear on them
Overall I'd say ditch them but based on his limited collection I'd say keep the pistols and voidblades
Has he considered trying out Lychguard with Warscythes (by proxying of course)?

[thecactusman17]

The reason your student is having such a good time with the Praetorians is because the scenario is EXACTLY where they excel: dealing with a small enemy force, with a little backup, probably in a confined table space. the issue is what happpens when your opponent is playing a larger force, or one that is able to project itself over a larger table area. Throw him against an equally sized army of mechanized Dark Eldar, for example, and he'd probably have a very hard time surviving.

As a tactical exercise, i would suggest showng him what happens when you add an extra unit dedicated to killing heavy infantry on top of your existing force while leaving his unaltered. Even if he can outrun it, it's very likely that his army will have a hard time keeping up. Explain to him that you are attempting to show how in a larger battle, additional units can be redirected to handle the threat of his Praetorians, and that his strategy isn't necessarily wrong but that it needs to be thought out better before he expands his army if that's the way he wants to keep playing.

[SeraphimAngels]

i agree with Cactus, he is playing with a limited list the best thing i would recommend is to flush out his list with what the Necrons can offer, the Triarchs from what I can tell are those sacrificial unit that goes and kills the crap out of something and then gets shot.
However being Jump Infantry makes them really dangerous with the Rod of the Covenant, I agree to kit them out with those.
I would use them in a timed matter with a powerful hq piece or another elite choice. Say timed assault with the Nightbringer hahahaha! :D Surprise unit! You're dead...
Sorry got carried away haha, I would let him know that once he flushes out his army a lot of strategies will come to light that he can use to kill a bunch of stuff. :cool:

[Ebon Hand]

I'mve always been the type to disregard convention and try out things that seem sub-optimal on paper but find out ways to use them on the tabletop. I think the praetorians are cool, and no doubt your student does too.

Have him try out many different ways of using them. Different squad sizes, different roles, different load outs. I like how Nacho explained the rods of covenant and I agree with him. When shooting, your low initiative is a non-issue, and AP2 is always a nice asset to have, especially on a deep striker.

[Necron_Lord]

I have to agree that Triarch Praetorians aren't the greatest elites choice and haven't gotten any yet and therefore have never playtested them. The two options give the unit two different roles.

Rod of Covenant - Its upside is that it has a low AP shooting attack and ignores armor saves in CC. These are good against units with good armor saves like Space Marines. Its downside is that its shooting and CC attacks are only S 5, so it can't deal with Dreadnoughts or pen AV 11.

Void Blade and Particle Casters - Its upside is that it has a S 6 shooting attack, A 1/2, and Entropic Strike with Rending. It does well against vehicles and probably better against units with poor armor saves. Against units with good armor saves it will probably struggle. One possible benefit could be the turn 2 kill against Long Fangs or such and thus saving it from being shot by being locked in CC during the opponent's turn.

They are a mobile disruption unit with the ability to Deep Strike but have too many drawbacks to justify their cost for me. They are cool looking and I like their fluff so I'll probably get some at some point, but I'm going to get Triarch Stalkers before them for sure.

[statecircus]

i agree

[Nosmo75]

I'm rather with Mephiston. I think the Praetorians are alright, but definitely not optimal.

I've sort of equated them to the Necron version of Swooping Hawks in that they've things that could be quite good at a few different jobs, but the combination is just odd. The models look good and they can do some interesting things. I'm just scratching my head on how best to use them.

An Eldar player I know uses his Swooping Hawks purely as a bombing run unit. They Deep Strike in, drop their grenade packs and re-enter Reserve asap. =)

[Nosmo75]

OP, I'd advise Necro-tyke to look at the background for the Triarch Praetorians for clues on how to use them effectively. I seem to remember their fluff indicating that they only strike at the most opportune moment, so maybe deploying them in cover at the beginning of battles and jumping out at isolated units would be a surer recipe for success than relying on the randomness of Deep Striking. Or Deep Striking indirectly, and waiting for the right moment to charge in. =)

[Chumbalaya]

Well, they are pretty crap, sad to say. You have the choice between 1A power weapons or 2A rending on a 40 point model with no invulnerable save. It's just inefficient, underwhelming, and just bad.

They're fine for casual play or learning the game, but he's going to be more disappointed with them as he improves.

[Kawauso]

Personally I like the Rod of Covenant better than the caster/VB loadout for Praetorians, but that could be merely aesthetic - I haven't used either in a game as of yet.

If Necrotyke is looking to add a bit more punch to his unit (in terms of winning as opposed to getting bogged down in CC), I would suggest he tries adding a Destroyer Lord with a res. orb/warscythe to the group. Easy enough model to convert from a regular Destroyer + leftover bitz from his Praetorian kit, especially if he sticks with the void blades on his guys.

It adds another tough body to the unit (which is jump infantry and can keep up with them), a warscythe, which is fantastic, and the orb increases the overall durability of the unit. Plus he has the option of the Lord leaving the unit and acting as a faux-monstrous creature, or whatever else. And it makes a cheap alternative to the on-foot Phaeron he's been running, if he's interested in trying another HQ (or not, he can always take both).

[Mephiston69]

Personally I like the Rod of Covenant better than the caster/VB loadout for Praetorians, but that could be merely aesthetic - I haven't used either in a game as of yet.

If Necrotyke is looking to add a bit more punch to his unit (in terms of winning as opposed to getting bogged down in CC), I would suggest he tries adding a Destroyer Lord with a res. orb/warscythe to the group. Easy enough model to convert from a regular Destroyer + leftover bitz from his Praetorian kit, especially if he sticks with the void blades on his guys.

It adds another tough body to the unit (which is jump infantry and can keep up with them), a warscythe, which is fantastic, and the orb increases the overall durability of the unit. Plus he has the option of the Lord leaving the unit and acting as a faux-monstrous creature, or whatever else. And it makes a cheap alternative to the on-foot Phaeron he's been running, if he's interested in trying another HQ (or not, he can always take both).

I agree, although Praetorians are suboptimal by adding the Destroyer Lord you make them much more multipurpose and more survivable with the res orb.