Turner
03-28-2012, 09:57 AM
So, how do we determine what to take in our army? Not the obligatory "should I take two or three 50man blobs with powerious weaponious and laserious gunnerious" or the shenanigans that is death strikes... but the This tank is worth X vs this group of chums is worth Y... Victory points! Our codexes are based on victory points, a group of penal legionnaires? 80pts, they come stock with scouts, stubborn and d6 to see what other cool powers they have! A Leman Russ Battle Tank? 150pts, comes with a battle cannon, hull mounted heavy bolter (can be exchanged for a flamer at no additional cost) and has it's own neat little lumbering rule. Well a group of criminals, that you probably don't want in your army to begin with, is a lot easier to kill than a tank, main a tank that is committed for battle... there's like (150 - 80, carry the 3) 70points worth of difference there... I should practically get another group of criminal scum duggers for free at that rate!
The sole argument I keep hearing is "people don't want to do math" at a tournament it will take a metric ton worth of time trying to add up what's worth what and what not what what what what what. Bring a calculator. And pencil (seriously bring a pencil, no body ever does. Even if the whole victory points thing fails and we keep doing kill points still bring a pencil) I'm told there's "Math Hammer" were we sit down and figure out the actual amount of lasers it would take to kill a terminator squad with bs 3 at 24" range air speed velocity of an Afric- you get the idea. Do a little prep work before.
No, I refuse. Stop this silly-ness at once! You are already required to bring an army list, so right where it says SPACE MARINE UNKILLABLES: 16,000pts 10man squad, powerfists wielding master crafted thunder hammers, storm shield bucklers, in Arnold Schwarzenegger, with a raider of lands for a dedicated transport.... just back it up to where it says 16,000pts. Now take you're pencil and put a little slash next to it and put in 8,000pts. That way if they are under strength (5 guys burger joint) then we know they are only worth 8,000pts.
Or better yet, which I would actually be totally fine with, If they aren't fleeing regardless of how low strength they are, they are still worth full value. Sure people are going to complain that you alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llmost killed my 50man blob but just couldn't kill that last guy... But next to no one will complain that they didn't finish off that space marine terminator squad because, that's what they do, they don't die, ever. But if they do die... they sure aren't worth one kill point, more like 16,000pts worth of points. I can choose to shoot at a rhino, 35pts (seriously 35pts? that's a hold other thread vs the technology that goes into vehicles, the neat stuff they get and the point values assigned to them) or a terminator squad worth 16,000pts. Well that's easy the rhino, because that's worth 1 kill point vs the terminators are 1 as well... but much harder to kill.
That's just silly. The opposing player should look at the choice and think "well, its a bigger gamble but a much bigger pay off to go for the terminators... so here goes nothing"
That's how victory points work! I have 2000pts worth of army and you have 2000pts worth of army. Not I have 25 kill points and you have 4 kill points...
Rewrite the codexes, that shouldn't be to hard. Then we'll start going to tournaments that aren't 2000pts but 10 kill points. And bring a calculator. (seriously, a pencil, bring it)
The difference between Kill points and Victory points? Kill points favor hyper elite MEQ armies where Victory points favor the large cheapo horde style armies. All that’s really happening when you change to victory points from kill points is you swap which players are *****ing about the points system. Actually wait, wait a second… It favors hyper elite MEQ armies… armies that… that… min/max really well? What’s the main problem people don’t like? What’s that? Min/Maxing? Weird…
Yeah but I totally missed out on 4th edition so I have no idea what I’m talking about.
A friend at my local gaming store posed this point:
“Back in 4th we used victory points, instead of kill points. What this did was allowed armies that take really large cost effective units En masse and not be hindered by the losses due to having many of said units. For example, Ork boys mob charges a unit of Tactical marines or the like. The Ork mob {which is cheaper and larger} will trounce the unit leaving the marine player with a lot less fire power then he initially had, to almost no to slim losses.
What you ended up with in 4th, was a lot of cases where VP was rolled, and those small , heavily points costed armies would kill 10 to 12 units, but get tabled. When all was said and done the other guy only would have lost somewhere between 500 to 1000 points in a 2K game.
In 5th it is the exact opposite, KP Focus's a bit more on the armies that have high costed units that you can only take a few of and seems to punish the guys with tons of cheap units.”
Basically he did not feel either system is fair or work properly. Ah but if we take a look at 4th edition and play victory points will be taking large cost effective units en masse? Necron tesla rolling those 6’s for straight up extra hits, Imperial Guard with the amount of squadrons they can pump out or artillery template weapons, Grey Knights with, well basically whatever they have going for them. Codexes have changed, rather drastically since 4th to 5th and now we’re almost into 6th! If you look at a list from 4th edition (which probably had little to no special characters in it) face off against a list from early 5th or late 5th it would almost be a no contest, barring a monkey was playing the newer list and the 40k champion of the world wasn’t playing the 4th edition list…
Here’s a thought…
Barring the argument of "Math is hard." which seems to be impossible to counter, (other than replying with "why are you here again?" or “how did you dress yourself today?”) here dawns a new point to the ever longing kills points vs victory points.
"The Switch"
So a tournament is coming up. How does one prepare for it? Figure out the points size, build a list and show up. Now you show up and come to find out there's one of the three missions kill points.
stop
Now back it up and make the switch...
So a tournament is coming up. How does one prepare for it? Figure out the kill point size… That's right, you read that right. Switch the victory points for kill points. You have a 15 kill point tournament. Everything else is totally normal, 1-2 HQ, 0-3 Elite/Fast/Heavy 2-6 Troops but since it's only 15 kill points you can only have 15 kill points max. End of story. As many points as you want but only 15 kill points.
Now for all of you who's first reaction is probably something along the lines of "that's stupid/well that's not fair/no one would do that" you now know how we/I feel. You'll show up to this tournament and field all sorts of stuff. Hell, as an Imperial Guard player I'll even field orgyns, tons of them. Why? Because those things are darn right impossible to kill when they are maxed out at 130pts base for 3 and adding 40 per extra model. They are the stupidest point sink you'll ever make but who cares, it's a 15 kill point tournament! Sure one mission that involves victory points will be a tough road but the rest of the tournament will go swimmingly. Of course if it's 15 kill points instead of 1500 victory points you won't see any sane people bringing mass rhinos, mass chimeras, drop pods, 10man IG infantry squads, basically anything dirt cheap, min/maxing squads because it just doesn't make sense. People are going to put 3 kill points in elite/fast/heavy with upgraded to the max everything (yes, even hunter killer missiles) just because each squad of 3 tanks or what have you is worth 1 kill point.
So what's the imbalance now? People will be all be showing up with 15 kill point army lists but the point size of each army will be utterly insane. As an IG player, just my 3 heavies and 3 elites will almost be 5000 points. But I only have 6 kill points! So it's pretty fair. Not completely fair mind you, but close enough for kill points. (On the flip side as an IG player I usually field close to a 20 kill point army where as a Grey Knight player usually fields somewhere in the single digits...)
I would also like to point out that doing straight victory points, although time consuming to figure out, in my mind seems to be completely fair. We show up to tournaments with 1500 points each and slug it out until turn 5 or so and figure out who has killed more. (or who has more objectives, the point is it's equal) Ah but then we run into the problem of unit strengths and the numbers that coincide with them. Kill half a squad of guys you get half the points, kill half minus one guy in the squad you get a whooping zero points. Kill all but one guy in that squad you still only get half… and that is a completely valid point. None of this silliness, kill pointness, or nessness. Just straight straight straight victory points. Either make it a gamble or make it more math intensive.
More Math intensive:
I bought a Leman Russ for 150pts, heavy stubber for 10, dozer blade for 10 and Extra Armour for 15. You wreck the thing you get alllllll the points. You immobilize it you take away, what can we agree on, half the points (150 / 2 ) plus the dozer blade since that is for movement. You break the heavy stubber off you get 10 points. You break the turret you get something else we can agree on like 1/4 the points of the original cost?
The Gamble
You get the points if it's dead and/or fleeing at the end of the game. No questions asked. You wrecked 2 of the 3 Leman Russes and immobilized and weapon destroyed everything on the last one but get nufffin until that last russ is gone, dead, in the ground, a flaming piece of junk. Sure that is unfair (however waaaay more fair than the current system) but it comes down to choosing to go for the super heavy point sink that's freaking impossible to kill or that 5 man squad of guardsman worth 30pts... (it also comes down to is that squadron of tanks about to lay waste to whatever I own and is that 5 man group of guardsman hiding in the back corner of the map, in cover, behind a building...)
The sole argument I keep hearing is "people don't want to do math" at a tournament it will take a metric ton worth of time trying to add up what's worth what and what not what what what what what. Bring a calculator. And pencil (seriously bring a pencil, no body ever does. Even if the whole victory points thing fails and we keep doing kill points still bring a pencil) I'm told there's "Math Hammer" were we sit down and figure out the actual amount of lasers it would take to kill a terminator squad with bs 3 at 24" range air speed velocity of an Afric- you get the idea. Do a little prep work before.
No, I refuse. Stop this silly-ness at once! You are already required to bring an army list, so right where it says SPACE MARINE UNKILLABLES: 16,000pts 10man squad, powerfists wielding master crafted thunder hammers, storm shield bucklers, in Arnold Schwarzenegger, with a raider of lands for a dedicated transport.... just back it up to where it says 16,000pts. Now take you're pencil and put a little slash next to it and put in 8,000pts. That way if they are under strength (5 guys burger joint) then we know they are only worth 8,000pts.
Or better yet, which I would actually be totally fine with, If they aren't fleeing regardless of how low strength they are, they are still worth full value. Sure people are going to complain that you alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llmost killed my 50man blob but just couldn't kill that last guy... But next to no one will complain that they didn't finish off that space marine terminator squad because, that's what they do, they don't die, ever. But if they do die... they sure aren't worth one kill point, more like 16,000pts worth of points. I can choose to shoot at a rhino, 35pts (seriously 35pts? that's a hold other thread vs the technology that goes into vehicles, the neat stuff they get and the point values assigned to them) or a terminator squad worth 16,000pts. Well that's easy the rhino, because that's worth 1 kill point vs the terminators are 1 as well... but much harder to kill.
That's just silly. The opposing player should look at the choice and think "well, its a bigger gamble but a much bigger pay off to go for the terminators... so here goes nothing"
That's how victory points work! I have 2000pts worth of army and you have 2000pts worth of army. Not I have 25 kill points and you have 4 kill points...
Rewrite the codexes, that shouldn't be to hard. Then we'll start going to tournaments that aren't 2000pts but 10 kill points. And bring a calculator. (seriously, a pencil, bring it)
The difference between Kill points and Victory points? Kill points favor hyper elite MEQ armies where Victory points favor the large cheapo horde style armies. All that’s really happening when you change to victory points from kill points is you swap which players are *****ing about the points system. Actually wait, wait a second… It favors hyper elite MEQ armies… armies that… that… min/max really well? What’s the main problem people don’t like? What’s that? Min/Maxing? Weird…
Yeah but I totally missed out on 4th edition so I have no idea what I’m talking about.
A friend at my local gaming store posed this point:
“Back in 4th we used victory points, instead of kill points. What this did was allowed armies that take really large cost effective units En masse and not be hindered by the losses due to having many of said units. For example, Ork boys mob charges a unit of Tactical marines or the like. The Ork mob {which is cheaper and larger} will trounce the unit leaving the marine player with a lot less fire power then he initially had, to almost no to slim losses.
What you ended up with in 4th, was a lot of cases where VP was rolled, and those small , heavily points costed armies would kill 10 to 12 units, but get tabled. When all was said and done the other guy only would have lost somewhere between 500 to 1000 points in a 2K game.
In 5th it is the exact opposite, KP Focus's a bit more on the armies that have high costed units that you can only take a few of and seems to punish the guys with tons of cheap units.”
Basically he did not feel either system is fair or work properly. Ah but if we take a look at 4th edition and play victory points will be taking large cost effective units en masse? Necron tesla rolling those 6’s for straight up extra hits, Imperial Guard with the amount of squadrons they can pump out or artillery template weapons, Grey Knights with, well basically whatever they have going for them. Codexes have changed, rather drastically since 4th to 5th and now we’re almost into 6th! If you look at a list from 4th edition (which probably had little to no special characters in it) face off against a list from early 5th or late 5th it would almost be a no contest, barring a monkey was playing the newer list and the 40k champion of the world wasn’t playing the 4th edition list…
Here’s a thought…
Barring the argument of "Math is hard." which seems to be impossible to counter, (other than replying with "why are you here again?" or “how did you dress yourself today?”) here dawns a new point to the ever longing kills points vs victory points.
"The Switch"
So a tournament is coming up. How does one prepare for it? Figure out the points size, build a list and show up. Now you show up and come to find out there's one of the three missions kill points.
stop
Now back it up and make the switch...
So a tournament is coming up. How does one prepare for it? Figure out the kill point size… That's right, you read that right. Switch the victory points for kill points. You have a 15 kill point tournament. Everything else is totally normal, 1-2 HQ, 0-3 Elite/Fast/Heavy 2-6 Troops but since it's only 15 kill points you can only have 15 kill points max. End of story. As many points as you want but only 15 kill points.
Now for all of you who's first reaction is probably something along the lines of "that's stupid/well that's not fair/no one would do that" you now know how we/I feel. You'll show up to this tournament and field all sorts of stuff. Hell, as an Imperial Guard player I'll even field orgyns, tons of them. Why? Because those things are darn right impossible to kill when they are maxed out at 130pts base for 3 and adding 40 per extra model. They are the stupidest point sink you'll ever make but who cares, it's a 15 kill point tournament! Sure one mission that involves victory points will be a tough road but the rest of the tournament will go swimmingly. Of course if it's 15 kill points instead of 1500 victory points you won't see any sane people bringing mass rhinos, mass chimeras, drop pods, 10man IG infantry squads, basically anything dirt cheap, min/maxing squads because it just doesn't make sense. People are going to put 3 kill points in elite/fast/heavy with upgraded to the max everything (yes, even hunter killer missiles) just because each squad of 3 tanks or what have you is worth 1 kill point.
So what's the imbalance now? People will be all be showing up with 15 kill point army lists but the point size of each army will be utterly insane. As an IG player, just my 3 heavies and 3 elites will almost be 5000 points. But I only have 6 kill points! So it's pretty fair. Not completely fair mind you, but close enough for kill points. (On the flip side as an IG player I usually field close to a 20 kill point army where as a Grey Knight player usually fields somewhere in the single digits...)
I would also like to point out that doing straight victory points, although time consuming to figure out, in my mind seems to be completely fair. We show up to tournaments with 1500 points each and slug it out until turn 5 or so and figure out who has killed more. (or who has more objectives, the point is it's equal) Ah but then we run into the problem of unit strengths and the numbers that coincide with them. Kill half a squad of guys you get half the points, kill half minus one guy in the squad you get a whooping zero points. Kill all but one guy in that squad you still only get half… and that is a completely valid point. None of this silliness, kill pointness, or nessness. Just straight straight straight victory points. Either make it a gamble or make it more math intensive.
More Math intensive:
I bought a Leman Russ for 150pts, heavy stubber for 10, dozer blade for 10 and Extra Armour for 15. You wreck the thing you get alllllll the points. You immobilize it you take away, what can we agree on, half the points (150 / 2 ) plus the dozer blade since that is for movement. You break the heavy stubber off you get 10 points. You break the turret you get something else we can agree on like 1/4 the points of the original cost?
The Gamble
You get the points if it's dead and/or fleeing at the end of the game. No questions asked. You wrecked 2 of the 3 Leman Russes and immobilized and weapon destroyed everything on the last one but get nufffin until that last russ is gone, dead, in the ground, a flaming piece of junk. Sure that is unfair (however waaaay more fair than the current system) but it comes down to choosing to go for the super heavy point sink that's freaking impossible to kill or that 5 man squad of guardsman worth 30pts... (it also comes down to is that squadron of tanks about to lay waste to whatever I own and is that 5 man group of guardsman hiding in the back corner of the map, in cover, behind a building...)