Most Viable Shooty Faction

[silentdante]

hello all, thanks for taking the time to read my post.

My question to all the warmachine/hordes players would be: Which faction from either warmachine or hordes do you think is the most viable faction for a mostly ranged shooty theme? Take into account all forms of ranged combat including but not limited to sprays, indirect/bombard, magic, ect. used in a faction. I am not looking for lists per say, but more generality and knowledge from people to help me figure out which faction to maybe start to pick up.

thanks!
-cory

[tonyzahn]

The common answer will probably be either Cygnar or Retribution.

In Cygnar, even the elite melee troops can shoot (albeit at short range). Lots of their casters have spells and abilities that support the ranged game, and most of their jacks have ranged attacks.
Add in some of the auto-hitting electrical shenanigans and they've probably got the most shots in the game.

Although newer, the Retribution has some really great ranged units, and almost every single one of their warjacks has ranged attacks. If you're counting magic attacks as well that adds the whole "mittens" battle mage theme as well.

One thing to keep in mind: the game is set up such that it's hard to win without at least some melee support. You can do an all-ranged army, but there are certain spells/feats/abilities that will shut it down and you have to have a plan B. Combined arms is the key concept. With Retribution the Invictors are ranged unit that are no slouches in melee, and in Cygnar the Stormblades are melee troops that can shoot (as mentioned above), so you can get the best of both sometimes. Both factions also have melee troops than ranged units can hide behind and shoot through, making a good meat wall for your gun lines.

[under]

I'd echo tonyzahn and say Retribution of Scyrah and Cygnar are the top two shootiny factions and add Protectorate of Menoth as a distant third.

That said, Lylyth2 is the number one ranged list caster in my opinion and she's in Legion of Everblight, that faction as a whole is not nearly as shooty as Retribution or Cygnar though. It's just that one caster in both forms that does it better then anyone else in a caster by caster line up.

[silentdante]

so is it commonly known that cygnar has the most ranged and the most effective ranged? i have been reading up on some things about cygnar and it seems like even in a ranged heavy list some of the ranged models never get taken. is that just prefrence or what? i guess my real question is, in a 35 point game do cygnar come out on top as the most effective ranged? or khador with all the bombards and winterguard, or retribution (which i admit to not knowing much about).

i do agree an only ranged army needs diversity, so if ther are good duel squads those would count for more. i am also going to say anything ranged 8" and more for effectiveness is what the cutoff is.

thanks again i really apreciate your guys thoughts

[Korwen]

If you want to play a ranged-heavy army than all of the factions mentioned (cygnar, retribution of scryah, Protectorate of Menoth and legion) will be able to field ranged-heavy armies that are viable...

However I'm going to recommend you change your mindset towards approaching the game.

Pick a faction that looks good out of the above list, buy the battlebox and play/paint it. After you have a couple games under your belt with those, then I'd recommend adding models based on your preference.

The reason I ask this is because trying to build an army without a lot of table time normally doesn't work out well. In addition, if you're asking for a competitive list that means you'll want to play scenarios, and ranged-heavy lists can suffer in scenarios.

I'd suggest picking a faction, getting to know the game and then deciding what you want to do. I've seen a lot of 40k players move over to Warmachine and not enjoy themselves because they were trying to play just like their Tau, stand and shoot, and then they'll just keep losing because this game loves aggression, and a lot of ranged-heavy lists have common hard counters.

[Drakkan Vael]

It is not that simple. A lot of factions can be tuned to great shooting powers.
Have a look at the protectorate for example:
Exemplar Errants, Deliverers as troops,
Knight Exemplar Errant Seneschal, Nicia, Tear of Vengeance (solos),
Vanquisher, Reckoner (heavies),
Repenter, Redeemer (light)

This does not look like much in the first place, but in combination with vassal(s) and a choir, this can become quite fearsome (they have a shorter range but cannot be hit by shooting attacks (choir), and gain extra shots (vassals).

It is only lacking a decent randed caster but it works astonishingly well. :)

You see, there are other uncommon shooting armies out there.

[under]

so is it commonly known that cygnar has the most ranged and the most effective ranged? i have been reading up on some things about cygnar and it seems like even in a ranged heavy list some of the ranged models never get taken. is that just prefrence or what? i guess my real question is, in a 35 point game do cygnar come out on top as the most effective ranged? or khador with all the bombards and winterguard, or retribution (which i admit to not knowing much about).

i do agree an only ranged army needs diversity, so if ther are good duel squads those would count for more. i am also going to say anything ranged 8" and more for effectiveness is what the cutoff is.

thanks again i really apreciate your guys thoughts

Well, no two units are created indentically, units A might be great with unit B, but not so good with unit C. In general you can not build an army considering units in isolation. A good example would be max Mage Hunter Strike Force +UA and 2x Stormfall Archers, both are great for different reasons but taking both at 35 points leaves no room for a real front line melee unit for protecting said ranged units and 'jacks in the list. Dawngaurd Invictors or Housegaurd Halbriders would be a good swap for either the Strifeforce or Archers.

I suppose I should clarify why I consider Cygnar and Retribution to be ranged factions but not Protectorate even though the later does have some good ranged options. Both Cygnar and Retribution in general will have key units and solo's that are primarily ranged based, whereas Protectorate's keys tend to be melee based much more often. It's so significant that I would say it's a rare exception when a Cygnar or Retribution list does not include a strong ranged component and spend more then hlaf the list points on models that are either ranged or ranged/melee combined. The exact opposite is true of Trollbloods and Skorne to name two. Protectorate of Menoth lists, as I play against them and read battle reports has more points put into melee power than Cygnar and Retribution in most lists. On top of all this most Warcasters in Cygnar have support spells that make thier ranged game better still.

Regaurding what that see less playtime - Cygnar has the largest occrance for this. When you play more often you'll see that some faction have "go to units" Trollbloods: Fen Blades, Cryx: Bile Thralls, Khador: Kazzy Assassins, Retribution: Mage Hunter Strike Force, there are others. These units end up bing unsed in most lists for said faction. For some greater detail Trollblood players tend to discuss Fen Blades, Kreil Warriors, and Champions and which is better every so ofteh on the PP forums. Fen Blades usually have the largest support, but Kreil Warriors and Champions do have their place and are better in that place that Fen Blades, but even when Fen Blades aren't the best choice they tend to be a very close second. For that reason they are probably the best first unit purchase for a new Trollblood player. Cygnar does not really have a "go to unit" and they rely on Mercenaries more than any other faction specifically Boomhowlers and Nys Hunters for units and a host of solos.

TL;DR - If you want "shooty" and like either Cygnar/Merc or Retribution go for it, if you don't like either faction then you'll have to settle for factions that aren't specifically known for being "shooty" but do have a ranged game.

[thebarbalag]

I totally agree with Korwen. Experience with other games and how a shooting army works may not apply. Focusing on any one attribute of an army will both leave you vulnerable, and vastly limit your experience. One of the great strengths of this game is its flexibility within a given faction. You would be doing yourself a disservice to ignore it.

Most factions have viable ranged options, though they may function differently, for example, a Menoth Cleanser and Zealot army under Feora (either one) is going to function completely differently than a Cygnar gunline, or Trolls with heavy ranged beasts and Scattergunners under Gunbjorn (which would be different still under Skuld).

Pick an army you think looks cool, play with the Battlebox until you get the mechanics down, then make decisions about what type of army in that faction you want to play.

[Corax.69]

I think Retribution has one of the strongest shooting games. Almost everything in their army, including all their heavy jacks, can pump out ranged attacks. Ossyan and Raven both are excellent ranged assassination casters. The Mage Hunter Strike Force is also a beast of a ranged unit. With the UA, it can even ignore line of sight. If you want ranged shooting, you can't go wrong with Ret.

[Marshal_Wilhelm]

RoS has shooting woven into all of its Heavy Myrmidons, and even has effects woven into them so they are just raw guns.

Invictors are a solid shooting unit that can mini-feat from 10 to 14" of range.

People have already mentioned Mage Hunters ;)

Ossyan's feat adds an extra dice to shooting within his command range, and reduces enemy shooting by a dice too.

Destor Thanes are pretty reasonable shooting cavalry.

I guess it comes down to you liking their look and their fluff :D

[Vinsklortho]

I love Menoth as a shooting army. Menoth's shooting game is very interesting and can give people some serious trouble. Not to mention a lot of their shooting options are no slouches in melee either(Errants, both shooting heavies, both shooting lights). There isn't one specific shooting caster for Menoth but there are some that do some amazing things for a shooting army such as pKreoss(Purification for removing Occult/Shadow Pack, and an amazing alpha striking feat turn), pSevvy(Eye of Menoth gives you pow 17 Vanquishers, Rat 8 Pow 15 sprays from Repenters, pow 9 blast damage from Redeemers), and eFeora(bonded Redeemers can ruin so many people's days).

Also as people mentioned the support is phenomenal. Vassals for extra shooting/enliven, Choir for battle hymn, Rhoven for bypassing stealth/removing animi, etc.

[silentdante]

really apreciate everyones thoughts on this, i have been looking over the different army books for the suggested ranged beasts so far. i hear what people are saying when taking into account picking up a faction, but this isn't really about starting the game and just trying to choose a shooty army, i guess what i wanted to find out is which army would be the strongest as a ranged base with good support of it, or who is great at shooting but also can take out the enemy in melee, but would be mostly ranged based. which is why i was trying to say the most viable, meaning the best mix of ranged to worthwhile mini's not just generaly to win, but as an all around unit that can hand;e everything but is especialy good at ranged, which included magic and anything else like sprays.

i watched a recent battle report with legion where the guy had a lot of good beasts, and some unit (forget the name) but everything was able to move well, hit well with shooting, then reform and move back out of counter charge area. it was very effective, then when the time came the winged beasts he had that shot also had armour peircing and decent melee. and the warlock had a nice boost spell that helped melee and ranged. so i guess this was the type of discussion i was looking for more then just "help me pick an army".

i thank you all though, i didn't even think of menoth to much, where i had thought about khador because of all the bombards, WG, morters, and widow makers.no one brought them up at all so maybe the reason is because while they can be destructive you sacrifice to much other stoping power to just get the shooting from that faction. looking at menoth though, they do have a lot of decent double duty jacks and also some good spells/support for it.

thanks again
-cory (sorry for any spelling, cap's, or grammer, this is being typed on a phone)

[scadugenga]

Cygnar has arguably the best ranged war caster in the game: Kara Sloan. Weaponmaster on a pow 12 rifle means she's putting out 12+4d6 boosted. Add in the gobbler, and she can do this twice a round normally, and three times on her feat turn.

Ret is nice, yes. However they're a massive glass cannon, mores than even Cygnar or Cryx. And they don't have funky screw-you units like storm callers. No Los needed, ignores stealth, cover etc. have a lovely pow 10 lightning bolt. Pow 12 with eNemo.

Not to mention battle engines. The storm strider is a massive ranged beast.

[Bean]

Cygnar has arguably the best ranged war caster in the game: Kara Sloan. Weaponmaster on a pow 12 rifle means she's putting out 12+4d6 boosted. Add in the gobbler, and she can do this twice a round normally, and three times on her feat turn.

Ret is nice, yes. However they're a massive glass cannon, mores than even Cygnar or Cryx. And they don't have funky screw-you units like storm callers. No Los needed, ignores stealth, cover etc. have a lovely pow 10 lightning bolt. Pow 12 with eNemo.

Not to mention battle engines. The storm strider is a massive ranged beast.

I think you meant to say Caine, who is far more dangerous than Sloan at range--and, frankly, a better support caster,too (well, the prime version, anyway).

[mazgier]

And they don't have funky screw-you units like storm callers. No Los needed, ignores stealth, cover etc. have a lovely pow 10 lightning bolt.
Unfortunately, in Mk. II Stormcallers do need LoS as their Stormcalls require "target".

[Rich_B]

It kind of depends on the Warcaster or Warlock you choose, most factions have at least one that favours shooting. Harkevich for Khador, ELylyth for Legion, Gunnbjorn for Trolls, PKreoss for Menoth (good ol' pop'n'drop!), Broadsides Bart for Pirates - those are some good starting points. There are so many viable options I'd just pick a force you like the look of and go with it.

[scadugenga]

I think you meant to say Caine, who is far more dangerous than Sloan at range--and, frankly, a better support caster,too (well, the prime version, anyway).

Actually, I meant exactly what I wrote.

[Bean]

Actually, I meant exactly what I wrote.

Ah, well, that's a shame.

[scadugenga]

Why, because I refuse to allow you to draw me into a "discussion" to serve as another platform for you to go into long-winded diatribes?

You were that way on the PP forums, and I haven't seen much change here.

Trying to discuss things with you is about as much "fun" as a theological debate with a couple crusty old Jehovah's Witnesses, and about as constructive.

[Bean]

Why, because I refuse to allow you to draw me into a "discussion" to serve as another platform for you to go into long-winded diatribes?

You were that way on the PP forums, and I haven't seen much change here.

Trying to discuss things with you is about as much "fun" as a theological debate with a couple crusty old Jehovah's Witnesses, and about as constructive.

Lol.

Well, anyway, for the OP:

Cygnar or Ret.

Most Cygnar casters can support a good ranged army, but Caine, eHaley, and Kraye are certainly the top picks. Sloan is fine, but basically just a worse version of Caine.

For Ret, Ravyn and Kaelyssa are the primary ranged casters, though Rahn is probably the most powerful Ret caster, and he plays just fine at range.

[Infinite Freedom]

You both have good points, though I honestly prefer Sloan to Caine. But I'm just weird like that.

I've never played against Ret so I can't give an opinion on them, but I can say that saying Cygnar has a very good ranged game is an understatement. I've killed Casters within the first few turns with a Hunter under Sloan's Feat and Snipe. Love the little combo. And if it's been Boosted... How do I make a maniacal grin again?

[razcalking]

Surprised there's not more love for Legion. ELylyth can get just silly with the shooting, and Eyeless Sight takes away many of the tricks that people will use to counter a shooty list.

[Thornblood]

Whilst as a faction they dont rank to well in shooting, but Mercenary Broadsides Bart can really put out the firepower. I think he deserves a mention.

[mikethefish]

If we are talking Mercenary casters here, I would put Durgen Madhammer up for consideration over Bart. With his carpet bomb alone, he wrecks units of infantry. Plus having acess to some really neat shooting jacks (the Rhulic light jacks especially). Put him with some Nyss Hunters and Gun Mages and you have the makings of a truly rocking shooting army.

[mikethefish]

Lol.



Thing of it is, Bean...he's not wrong

[thecactusman17]

Bean, the most powerful ret caster for range is Ossyan. Kaelyssa and Ravyn also help a lot. Ret as a whole is a brash, adhesive army that combines thick armor and good speed to deliver hard hitting melee after shooting out all the heaviest resistance. Invictors in particular annihilate at range, then flank their targets to deliver a punishing finish.