Flayed Ones: Chaos tainted Necrons

[Necron2.0]

At this point I'm going to give Ward the benefit of the doubt and assume he was not just being unimaginative. With that, it's pretty much a "no brainer" that Flayed Ones are actually chaos tainted and not suffering from a "C'Tan curse." I mean, come on - they're sporting mutations, they have an irrational lust for blood, they come and go from the shadows at will and they have a hidden fortress in a "pocket dimension." <cough, cough, EYE OF TERROR, cough>

So, the fluff says the Flayer's Curse was the dying act of the C'Tan Llandu'gor, but I think it's fairly obvious that's a red herring. The question is, then, how'd they get the taint?

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

When I read it, I didnt see Llandu'gor as chaos corrupted but I did see him as a C'tan corrupting the necrons with the Flayer virus. I don't really see why chaos has to be part of it at all?

I just saw it as a mirror of the cthulhu mythos' Nug and Yeb/Ghouls in that respect. I feel they are about as related to Khorne as the Blood Angels.

[Necron2.0]

Well, like I said. I'm giving Ward the benefit of the doubt and assuming he's not just stealing from Khorne in the first place. It's kinda lame to have a chaos god that turns mortals into berserkers, and then turn around and introduce a Necron god that pretty much mimics the exact same behavior (only not quite as well).

The other issue is the Codex mentions that the C'Tan are indestructible, which is why they could only be turned into shards. However, Llandu'gor is said to have been completely obliterated. That is either something to make you go "Hmmm" or it's an example of very poor writing skill.

[Necron2.0]

Hmm. Just thought of another option I hadn't considered. It could be that the original core Flayed Ones actually come from a tomb world located in what would become the Eye of Terror. Subsequent "converts" would then be those corrupted through association with those originally tainted.

[Ironwolf]

I'm curious about what you mean by "sporting mutations" are you talking bout the claws, the flayed skins they wear the new scissor left hand? Not trolling I haven't read the new book nor have I seen anything different bout the new models other then there wonky poses and scissor hands.

[Necron2.0]

I'm curious about what you mean by "sporting mutations" are you talking bout the claws, the flayed skins they wear the new scissor left hand? Not trolling I haven't read the new book nor have I seen anything different bout the new models other then there wonky poses and scissor hands.

This is what is written in the fluff (emphasis mine):


"A Necron over whom the flayer curse has taken hold suffers a slow and tortuous erosion of sanity. It begins to revel in the bloody ruin of fleshed foes, and is driven to claim gruesome trophies of skin, sinew and bone. As the madness progresses, the victim becomes compelled to feast upon the fallen. It cannot actually digest or consume flesh in any sense - the blood simply seeps through the gaps in its exoskeleton to clog its joints and pool at its feet - yet still the Necron is driven to gorge itself upon gore in a doomed attempt to sate an unquenchable lust. Physical changes occur shortly thereafter, wracking and twisting the afflicted Necron's form into something as warped in body as it is in protocol and function. Ultimately, the accursed Necron simply disappears, drawn by unknown instinct to a pocket dimension beyond ours, where he will forever dwell amidst the charnel palaces of the Flayed Ones."

Of course, the most striking physical changes are the claws. Looking at the new Flayed Ones figures, it appears they also spontaneously grow trophy racks.

[Xess]

Arn't Necrons unaffected by the warp, and thus immune to demonic possesion, influence, etc?

[Necron2.0]

Arn't Necrons unaffected by the warp, and thus immune to demonic possesion, influence, etc?

No. C'Tan may have been, and the Necrontyr may not have had a psychic presence in the warp, but the Necrons are just machines, and as indicated in the Gaunt's Ghosts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaunt%27s_Ghosts#Menazoid_Epsilon) series, soulless machines can be corrupted.

At any rate, I do not believe the new codex mentions anything about the C'Tan, Necrontyr nor the Necrons being immune to the warp.

[trjames]

This is what is written in the fluff (emphasis mine):


"A Necron over whom the flayer curse has taken hold suffers a slow and tortuous erosion of sanity. It begins to revel in the bloody ruin of fleshed foes, and is driven to claim gruesome trophies of skin, sinew and bone. As the madness progresses, the victim becomes compelled to feast upon the fallen. It cannot actually digest or consume flesh in any sense - the blood simply seeps through the gaps in its exoskeleton to clog its joints and pool at its feet - yet still the Necron is driven to gorge itself upon gore in a doomed attempt to sate an unquenchable lust. Physical changes occur shortly thereafter, wracking and twisting the afflicted Necron's form into something as warped in body as it is in protocol and function. Ultimately, the accursed Necron simply disappears, drawn by unknown instinct to a pocket dimension beyond ours, where he will forever dwell amidst the charnel palaces of the Flayed Ones."

Of course, the most striking physical changes are the claws. Looking at the new Flayed Ones figures, it appears they also spontaneously grow trophy racks.



I liked it better when they were just driven mad by what they'd given up (bodies) and were putting on skins as a crude imitation of living creatures.

[Necron2.0]

I liked it better when they were just driven mad by what they'd given up (bodies) and were putting on skins as a crude imitation of living creatures.

I agree - absolutely, unabashedly, enthusiastically, and 100%. In the original fluff, all the Necron Lords, Immortals, Wraiths and what have yous were hollow shadows of living creatures. For the Flayed Ones, however, the promise of immortality actually came true. They were living souls trapped forever in lifeless, cold mechanical bodies. It was a far more interesting and dynamic plot line than having them simply twisted by chaos, or the worse and infinitely less imaginative alternative of a poser wannabe Chaos god.

[Spectral Dragon]

Machines can sport physical changes without mutation, it's called modifying.

The snipers have a pocket dimmension too. This is not the eye of terror.

Like all other races the necrons abhor the warp. They constantly keep a look out for it. I think they would have noticed if any of them were warp-tainted.

So I must disagree with you on this, as it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever based on what I have read. They have a virus, which makes them act in a different manner than Khorne followers. They do not seek their own destruction, just life.

[Necron2.0]

Hmm. Warp taint makes no sense but a virus infecting hardware and causing physical changes makes perfect sense ... rrriiiiiigggghhhhtttt. And yes, Necrons like all other races would guard against warp taint, and of course none of those other races have ever had any troubles at all with renegade legions. ;)

The crux of the issue is that the physical abhorations and the seeking of the "pocekt universe" are not planned. They magically just happen.

The text strongly implies the physical deformities are not intentional constructs, but are spontaneous mutations with no symmetry of purpose implied. In 40K, machines do not mutate without warp influence. As for a "virus", metal does not catch the common cold, and a software virus cannot reconstruct hardware. A virus could drive a machine "mad", but it could never cause any physical changes.

As for the pocket universe, again there are no mechanism involved. In the case of the Deathmarks, they are designed to access a pocket dimension, which implies an inbuilt dimensional gate key as part of their basic construction. Assuming the Flayed Ones weren't a special purpose built construct designed to go mad in the first place, they would not have any inbuilt apparatus that allows them to dimension shift, and again there isn't anything to suggest that they construct one. They simply disappear, like something associated with the immaterium would. Also, if we want to throw a little real world physics into the mix, the immaterium itself is just its own "pocket dimension."

As for the Khorne connection, a Khorne berserker and a Flayed One fight for the exact same things. Berserkers fight for blood and skulls. Flayed Ones fight for gore, sinew and bones. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Finally, there's the issue of the C'Tan Llandu'Gor. The fluff around the Flayed Ones says he was utterly destroyed. This directly contradicts what the Codex itself says of the C'Tan - that they ultimately cannot BE destroyed. From this, there are only one of two conclusions possible. Either Llandu'Gor was not actually a C'Tan, or Ward is a really, really crappy writer. Here I'll let the reader decide which is which.

[Slug]

The trouble here though is that you assume that necrons can't impose changes on their own bodies, also you assume that the C'tan have fairly limited power. The C'tan could easily infect the flayers with a computer virus, now, we know that the programming of a necron can cause physical changes otherwise they wouldn't be able to self repair. So, it's not such a jump to assume that they could be infected by a virus that corrupts the programming surrounding their ability to self repair causing them to mutate.
Also, I think it would be perfectly in the power of a not so happy C'tan to cause them to jump into another dimension after a while.
Finally, There is a chance Ward just messed up, or he assumed we would assume that he meant the C'tan was broken into very small shards, so effectively even more destroyed then normal, plus it says "it is said that" so no definite proof, also the C'tan and the necrontyr are still pretty much a mystery, so who knows what happened. However, there is little evidence it is a demon (it's definitely not korne otherwise he wouldn't be here now) as no demon has such power and such a curse has never happened due to a demon before, also it's a bit odd for a Korne demon to do that.

[Kataklysm]

The trouble here though is that you assume that necrons can't impose changes on their own bodies, also you assume that the C'tan have fairly limited power. The C'tan could easily infect the flayers with a computer virus, now, we know that the programming of a necron can cause physical changes otherwise they wouldn't be able to self repair. So, it's not such a jump to assume that they could be infected by a virus that corrupts the programming surrounding their ability to self repair causing them to mutate.
Also, I think it would be perfectly in the power of a not so happy C'tan to cause them to jump into another dimension after a while.
Finally, There is a chance Ward just messed up, or he assumed we would assume that he meant the C'tan was broken into very small shards, so effectively even more destroyed then normal, plus it says "it is said that" so no definite proof, also the C'tan and the necrontyr are still pretty much a mystery, so who knows what happened. However, there is little evidence it is a demon (it's definitely not korne otherwise he wouldn't be here now) as no demon has such power and such a curse has never happened due to a demon before, also it's a bit odd for a Korne demon to do that.

Seconded. It seems more logical that the "nano-scarabs" the repairing kind that rebuild individual necrons are affected with the individual necron that they reside/work, with/on. Stop all the hating on matt ward. i agree he isnt the most talented of writers but he still is the guy that gets paid tons of money to write the stuff that WE would give a left testicle to write... wait.. no thats a great reason to hate matt ward.

[Necron2.0]

Comment: The Necron fluff is really quite silly, so please don't take offense at anything that follows. This is really nothing more than an academic argument.


The trouble here though is that you assume that necrons can't impose changes on their own bodies,

No, I'm quite sure they could, if they so chose. What I said, however, is the text of the fluff in no way implies the Necrons are willfully altering they physical form. The text implies the changes are happening completely contrary to the will of both the Necrons as a whole and the individual in specific.


also you assume that the C'tan have fairly limited power.

No, quite the opposite in fact. I had said, per the fluff, the C'Tan were so powerful they could not ultimately be destroyed. The best that could be done is to fracture them. Again, these are the words of the Codex.


The C'tan could easily infect the flayers with a computer virus

I have to disagree. To agree would be to believe that a creature of pure energy with no real knowledge or understanding of the physical realm is intrinsically a software engineer. The C'Tan are old. That doesn't make them all knowing. Something can be as old as God Himself, but if it has never seen a flower it is as ignorant as a new born as to what flowers smell like. The C'Tan are not cyberneticists. They could not even build their own bodies. They relied on the Necrontyr to do it. Additionally, if they could simply infect the Necrons with a virus, why were they all destroyed? The idea that a being like the C'Tan could create a computer virus that not only corrupts the programming of a machine like a Necron, but also causes its hardware to reconfigure itself pretty much defies all logic. It would be very much like a psychic null instructing the Emperor on the ebb and flow of the immaterium.


we know that the programming of a necron can cause physical changes otherwise they wouldn't be able to self repair.

Mmmm ... not so much. Programming doesn't do anything in the absence of hardware, and hardware is usually purpose built to do a finite set of things. Putting the pieces back together after they've been violently disassembled is one thing. Repurposing those pieces into a brand new design is entirely different.

I will concede that if a Necron's physical health is maintained by an army of nanites, similar to the cells that maintain our skeletons, then it could be conceivable to reprogram all the nanites (as a whole) to reconfigure their host being into something else. However, this requires turning the pure energy being into a super-ultra-genius level hardware specialist again. Chaos possession doesn't have that constraint.


Also, I think it would be perfectly in the power of a not so happy C'tan to cause them to jump into another dimension after a while.

A living C'Tan, perhaps, but a long, loooooong dead one?

***

Again, there are logic and plot holes in the Necron fluff large enough to park a craftworld or three in, so I encourage everyone to take all this with a huge lick of salt. I look at the fluff and I see the mark of chaos. Others take the fluff purely at face value. There's room for both interpretations. Personally, I happen to think the chaos line is kinder to Ward, for reasons I've previously given. Of course, at the end of the day, it could simply be the only correct answer to the poll is the fifth one.

[Spectral Dragon]

makes perfect sense ... rrriiiiiigggghhhhtttt.



If you want to get snappy with me and bait me, you made no sense from the start, as everyone else in this thread is pointing out.

Pretty clear to me, The C'tan are supposed to rival any chaos god shard.

[Necron2.0]

"Everyone" pointed out? Rrriiiiiigggghhhhtttt!! :D

Dude. Chill. Despite the machinations of some, this place is not yet Warseer.

[Spectral Dragon]

"Everyone" pointed out? Rrriiiiiigggghhhhtttt!! :D

Dude. Chill. Despite the machinations of some, this place is not yet Warseer.


RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTT TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

Annoying and nerve racking isn't it? Obvious baiting tactic as well, and that's the whole issue I have with you right now.

The whole point of my previous post was to tell you to "chill," I don't appreciate being baited. You, yourself, are making this thread feel like a warseer thread.

If your not going to engage in this intelligently I don't see the point in bringing up certain facts or engaging you at all (After this point I likely never will again, in fact). If you want me to "chill," stop baiting. It's really as simple as that.

You are leaving no room in your own mind for debate on this subject so why make the thread in the first place?

Since this topic was originally about something else I am going to leave it at that and not post such irrelevant bickering. On to the topic at hand, there is nothing to see here.

[Slug]

Comment:

Again, there are logic and plot holes in the Necron fluff large enough to park a craftworld or three in, so I encourage everyone to take all this with a huge lick of salt. I look at the fluff and I see the mark of chaos. Others take the fluff purely at face value. There's room for both interpretations. Personally, I happen to think the chaos line is kinder to Ward, for reasons I've previously given. Of course, at the end of the day, it could simply be the only correct answer to the poll is the fifth one.



In the end I think that, yes, there are too many little holes and confusion between editions to be able to really make one conclusive argument, though I would say that potentially C'tan could influence the coding behind necrons without actually knowing about it, like chaos does, also maybe the C'tan turned it's self into the virus and it corrupts similar to how chaos does?

[Necron2.0]

In the end I think that, yes, there are too many little holes and confusion between editions to be able to really make one conclusive argument, though I would say that potentially C'tan could influence the coding behind necrons without actually knowing about it, like chaos does, also maybe the C'tan turned it's self into the virus and it corrupts similar to how chaos does?

Aw, now that would be a bit more interesting. Good ol' Llandu'Gor didn't actually die. Rather, he became shards inside each Flayed One, warping and twisting them from within (not as a "virus", but rather as some form of C'Tan possession).

Still, that wouldn't be very imaginative on Ward's part. It would still be derivative of what Chaos already does better.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

My take on it:
The Flayer C'tan was one of the many psychopathic C'tan who got off on death and suffering (re: Nightbringer).
The effects of his curse/essence drive Flayed Ones insane. This matches up with the ever, ever so subtle (lol) theme throughout the codex of Necrons going crazy because they're old an soulless. Angry Star God cooties exaggerate and redirect the problem.
Flayed Ones crudely modify themselves to make flesheating/killing easier. They might be assisted by Canoptek constructs on the Flayed One planet.
Note that the known master of the Flayed Ones is a sane(ish) Necron Overlord.
---
Lots of stuff in the setting is enraged and bloodhungry, and they all empower Khorne - however, only a few of those actually worship him.