Heresy of the highest degree...

[mountaincycle661]

It is indeed a sad day for the thousand sons players when even we, sworn enemies and rivals to the space wolves, consider using thier codex to better represent our own legion :(

Consider the chaos psychic powers (no, not all of them...just the USEFUL ones). You've got warp time, breath of chaos, maybe some lash....Thats it. Those are the only ones worth taking.

Now, the space wolves, WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTED WITH "WITCHES", are getting kick *** powers. All but maybe 1 or 2 are worth taking. World wolf seems to be generating quite a lot of fuss, and understandably so...the ability to just draw a line and stand a good chance at killing big nasty things or tons of low initiative models is pretty...well....unfair. The storm caller guy is a freakin monstrosity, and even if hes maxed out in TERMINATOR armor, hes still only 20 pts more that AHRIMAN. Plus he negates other peoples powers on a +3. Gee, i miss the days when tzeentch had anti-psyker wargear.

If you pitted a thousand sons army against the space wolves, it wouldnt be a game. It would be a predictable, boring massacre.

So think about this: 3 tzeentchian sorcerors (rune priests) and Ahriman (the storm caller) leading units of "pre-rubric" marines (grey hunters with special weapons). Large packs of chaos spawn (fenrisian wolves with cyber enhancements) charging ahead of thier insane leaders. Also, ive converted and painted awesome tzeentchian marines to be riding the WFB chaos warriors on horses....ive got half a mind to use them as fenrisian wolf rider dudes.

Am i joking? Am i ACTUALLY considering doing this? Yeah...i guess so. Im just so sick of everyone in the god damn universe getting really awesome psykers and psychic powers when the supposed masters of all things psychic get the $hit end of the stick...again (that includes you too, eldar players). You know it really means something when the SPACE WOLVES get better psykers than the THOUSAND SONS. when the HELL did that happen?! :eek:

Maybe i should just use the SW codex as a big slap in the face to GW. Maybe next time they wont let a space marine fanboy write the loyalist codex with a bias so obvious helen keller could spot it.

[oni]

The Space Wolf codex is so over powered I can't see why anyone would use anything else. I got a look at it today and it is atrociously overpowered. I'm going to get it to use for my regular SM's, I'd be a fool not to.

October 3rd marks the dawn of unbalance for 5th edition and codex SM's becoming obsolete. :(

[DarkLink]

I completely disagree about it being overpowered, and I've actually proxied and played it. It is very good, but certainly not overpowered. Grey Hunters are definately better than normal Tactical Marines, though.

As for the OP, well, I guess you'll have to take consolation in the fact that the Wolves only outpace you in shooting psychic powers, as they don't really have anything else (4 shooting, 1 cover save and 1 deepstrike/jump infantry partial denial)

[Schnitzel]

I highly doubt there will ever be a Codex: Thousand Sons nor an appropriate entry in a Chaos codex to properly represent them. It sucks, but there is no harm in playing with the codex with the most warp taint available... Ie; Go for the Wolves and all their spell casting glory? I wonder if GW even paused to consider the irony in giving the wolves so much magic....

[Aux]

I'm still hoping for at least a Legions of Chaos release to make me feel better. Chaos Space Marines should have been called Chaos Renegades for all the attention they got.

[sangrail777]

LOL.....HAHHHHAHAHaaa!!!!!:D ................ahhhh...well you have a really good point. Imagine Russ was so hateful towards sorcery he attacked his own "Brother" slaughtered his marines and destroyed his world. And all this before he knew of the Heresy going on. He was the first Primarch to really strike out at another Primarch to kill. And he was more then willing to because of his hate and mistrust of sorcery.
Now his own inheriters to his Legion are among the greatest sorcerers around. Makes ya wonder if Russ comes out hiding and returns home what will be the fate of Fenris?
Hell Yeah use their Codex!! and don't forget to HOWL! when you beat a Space wolf army! LOL!

"O' how far the mighty have fallen"

[icecube]

Seriously, the space wolwes codex is not that good. Sure if two players who are equally good played against each other, the other one using wolves and the other normal marines the wolves would probably win. But you have to be a better player than the wolf player then, right? What i mean is that don´t go overly dramatic when the codex hasn´t even been released yet. If anyone wants to try a game against my orks with their wolves and lives in finland i´ll be more than happy to play.

[Kanaellars]

LOL.....HAHHHHAHAHaaa!!!!!:D ................ahhhh...well you have a really good point. Imagine Russ was so hateful towards sorcery he attacked his own "Brother" slaughtered his marines and destroyed his world. And all this before he knew of the Heresy going on. He was the first Primarch to really strike out at another Primarch to kill. And he was more then willing to because of his hate and mistrust of sorcery.
Now his own inheriters to his Legion are among the greatest sorcerers around. Makes ya wonder if Russ comes out hiding and returns home what will be the fate of Fenris?
Hell Yeah use their Codex!! and don't forget to HOWL! when you beat a Space wolf army! LOL!

"O' how far the mighty have fallen"

How are you getting this deluded information?

Propero was a tragedy, but it was not what you are describing.

You see, Magnus saw the future and knew Horus was going to betray the Emperor. He tried to warn him with psychic power.

The Emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus in for questioning. Horus, who Russ still believed loyal at the time, convinced Russ the Emperors order was in fact to kill agnus, because he was a traitor.

How does this work out to what you describe as Russ just "attacking" his brother because he hated him?

There are actually mentions in some of the earlier work of Russ "weeping" over Propero, and what had to be done.

Yes, he did mistrust sorcery, but Russ was not a butcher. He was following orders.

That being said, as a wolf player, even I agree that it is a bit odd for us to be getting all this power. Personally I think we should have gotten the amazing anti-psychic powers, but much weaker attack psychics.

[Xas]

other than world wolf there is not much about attack psychics.

combining warptime and deamonic bolt (whatever the s4 ap3 3shot thingy is called) will generally result in more kills than the two shooty wolf powers.

unlimited range s7 is nice vs light vehicles but chaos has the shorter ranged but s8 ap1 (very important) and rerolling (warptime) bolt of tzeentch.


and the rest... a true A3 W3 sorcerer and the abomination that both wind of chaos and warptime are enough to make chaos still king of sorcery. only thing we miss is some rune-axe/psychic hood thingy.

[King Wibble]

How are you getting this deluded information?

Propero was a tragedy, but it was not what you are describing.

You see, Magnus saw the future and knew Horus was going to betray the Emperor. He tried to warn him with psychic power.

The Emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus in for questioning. Horus, who Russ still believed loyal at the time, convinced Russ the Emperors order was in fact to kill agnus, because he was a traitor.

How does this work out to what you describe as Russ just "attacking" his brother because he hated him?

There are actually mentions in some of the earlier work of Russ "weeping" over Propero, and what had to be done.

Yes, he did mistrust sorcery, but Russ was not a butcher. He was following orders.

There are several references in the HH books about the hatred of SW towards TS. Read Battle for the Abyss for a start as that sums it up pretty well. Although there were probably the odd brotherly exception that isn't written about you can read in most of the fluff (Index Astartes II, The Horus Heresy Artbooks as well as the HH books). And in the Index Astartes book it uses blood fued a lot and mentions how p****d the Emperor is with Magnus.

Just thought I'd let you know that it's all in the fluff ;)

[mountaincycle661]

Ok, taking into account the "outwardly offense-based" powers, i still give it up to the wolves over the sons.

Warptime and wind of chaos combined can be pretty heinous, ill give you that. But thats ALL we thousand sons take. Gift of chaos SUCKS because you have to use it at the beginning of your turn (NOT in the shooting phase like the demons counterpart, boon of mutation). Nurgles rot is a joke, lash of submission is a thing everyone prepares for now....and DOOMBOLT?! please! Your talking to a guy who has an ARMY of S4 AP3 bolters!!! why the HELL would i need doombolt?! (same goes for the tzeentch demon weapon...hey look! its MORE S4 AP3!!)

Lame. :rolleyes:

Now, The Jaws power, as mentioned before spells death for a lot of things. But there are whole threads dedicated to its ridiculous power, so i wont get into it there. Suffice it to say, that for comparison reasons, the Jaws and Warptime/Wind of Chaos cancel each other out.

The wolves have a 3d6 shot, unlimited range, St7 weapon. Awesome for killing rhinos, chimeras, trucks, sentinals, rear armor on just about anything, shaking and stunning armor 12 (eldar, im looking at you)....The sons? we have a one shot wonder! The bolt of change. We have to pass our psychic checks (because we have to do that now, unlike before when we could just auto-pass), then we get ONE shot at BS4. You know the frustration and angst of having a lascannon miss? You know, because they ALWAYS miss? its like that...only once you miss, the thousand sons have very little else to pick up the slack. We dont have meltaguns, or plasma, or flamers. We're so expensive, theres little room for oblits, and chosen, etc.

The wolves have a character that causes a STORM (literally) of negative effects on the enemy that actually....*GASP!* ...has a noticable outcome on the game! The first teir in this storm is dropping your enemies Ballistic Skill by 1. That right there would spell doom for a thousand sons army. or any other shooty army for that matter (other marines, chaos marines, IG, eldar...). It causes break checks on unengaged units, it makes a huge area of effect difficult terrain, it starts sending down bolts of lightning to hit vehicles on side armor...It just seems like the author of this book has his head up his *** and just wanted to make an awesome good guy psyker, "cuz i luvs my space marines, cuz they're just so cool and awesome...and cool!".

Meanwhile, ahriman is +5 points than the Storm Caller and about as useful as a paper plate in a hurricane.

Lame :rolleyes:

[King Wibble]

But paper plates in hurricanes look purdy, especially the shiny ones :P
You're right though, for a guy who has studied and worshipped the warp for over ten millenia you would have thought he could do more than shoot a static charge from his finger, and at least be able to pass a pyschic test automatically because he has been a psycher before most rune priests started forgetting to shave.

[Fowlplaychiken]

1 month.





Thats how long it will take for people to go through the endless cycle


codex release
rabble rabble rabble, overpowered, unbeatable, game breaking
counter discovered
silence
codex release
rinse, repeat

mark my words, one month after codex launch and the cries will be silenced.

I will beat the piss and vinegar out of space wolves with any army in the game. Just requires a rethinking of tactics. Can we all use the same old list and tactics after the codex launch? No. could we ever, after a new codex came out? No. New codex means new units and rules, which means rethinking tactics and rebalancing lists to address potential tournament matchups. Remember when IG came out? remember when there were cries of "zomg OP, zomg game broken, death to 5th ed" etc? yea. Everyone was scared to death until the 'acceptable" ratio of anti infantry/anti horde/anti tank was redressed to account for mechanized IG armies. Now you dont hear cries of complaint anymore. We just take more Anti Tank and move on.

[King Wibble]

Well, I wasn't making any reference to the gameplay of the codex because tbh I haven't seen it and so I have no reason to form any opinion. However it does interest me how the stats and powers in a codex release compare with the fluff.

Obviously a space marine army couldn't get the story book stats because every IG player would cry as one squad kills a whole battalion, that said, an IG army would take up the table by itself, and Orks quite simply would take up the room you wanted to play in.

What I look for is how well the stats reflect the armies that we have come to love and adore in the fluff we read. I loved the way that IG got mech that represented how everyone envisages IG, armour all over the place and plenty of numbers and commanders screaming orders. Orks got a facelift that turned them into what they truely are, p**s poor mechanics, but what they build and how they use it is absolutely terrifying. Space Marines got vets and drop pods which is what they have in my opinion missed in years.

Yes, a codex will be 'over-powered' when it's first released and that's because GW are trying to write codex to make the armies play as well as they do in the fluff. However, eventually it will lose that shine reason being if ENTER ARMY NAME HERE was that over powered, there would be no 40k because that army would have conquered the galaxy already.

What annoys me is when GW makes a little inconsistency, perhaps it will be ammended and they have already been aware of this, such as making an army able to compete the way it does in the fluff but in doing so it loses a bit of its character. After all SW were mortal enemies with TS and they went to war over it, so to represent that surely the SW codex shouldn't have psychic powers?

Just my opinion, but what do you think?

[mountaincycle661]

Exactly. Inconsistancy is the key term here.

They shouldnt have ANY psychic powers. Maybe some anti psychic wargear, like a psychic hood or something. But cancelling ANY power on the roll of a +3? Thats better than any hood ive ever seen. Hell, thats better than what ELDRAD brings to the table!!!

what the HELL, GW? Marines who hate psykers have the most powerful psykers? The supposed dominant psyker forces (thousand sons and eldar) get stuck with pitiful little tiddly-winks?

Ahriman should be able to kick the psychic CRAP out of anyone except eldrad...even then, it'd be a duel for the ages. So some dumb bastid space wolf comes along and shows everyone else up?

[Schnitzel]

1 month.





Thats how long it will take for people to go through the endless cycle


codex release
rabble rabble rabble, overpowered, unbeatable, game breaking
counter discovered
silence
codex release
rinse, repeat

mark my words, one month after codex launch and the cries will be silenced.

I will beat the piss and vinegar out of space wolves with any army in the game. Just requires a rethinking of tactics. Can we all use the same old list and tactics after the codex launch? No. could we ever, after a new codex came out? No. New codex means new units and rules, which means rethinking tactics and rebalancing lists to address potential tournament matchups. Remember when IG came out? remember when there were cries of "zomg OP, zomg game broken, death to 5th ed" etc? yea. Everyone was scared to death until the 'acceptable" ratio of anti infantry/anti horde/anti tank was redressed to account for mechanized IG armies. Now you dont hear cries of complaint anymore. We just take more Anti Tank and move on.

You do realize this isn't one of those threads right? That this thread is more about SW's getting abilities that are lame fluff-wise, now SW's getting game breaking abilities. Whats being said here is it sucks that SW's have awesome psyker stuff and Thousand Sons don't, not ZOMG teh wolves are so uber unbeatable!!!1!1.
Sheesh.
Yeah, there's a lot of anti wolve sentiment being thrown around.... but there are a lot of arrogant jerks flaming any one and every one that sounds the least bit condescending. Give it a rest, its a tiring argument thats part of a tiring cycle.

[King Wibble]

Just out of curiousity, how would you write the TS codex, bearing in mind that it has to be balanced in comparison to their bretheren. Obviously they are going to have some uber unit, spawn, and something mid-range, but what would you like to see in it?

I personally am a loyalist, play my own chapter, so this isn't really for gaming, just fluff. But would you see something like Librarians going round as 2 hq and the option if you take Ahriman then you can take coven squads (librarian with 10 man squad) with somekind of incentive, such as the men acting like familiars, enhancing dice roll etc? How would you balance that out with the rest of the army? Would they have powers like JotWW, or would you go Tomb Kings from WFB (who I love to play with) and use their powers to support and make your army more effective in dice rolling, i.e. powers to allow re-rolls, extra attacks, etc.

[mountaincycle661]

Writing a codex for the thousan sons would be fast, simple and effective. And im glad you asked, because ive been meaning to get this off my chest for a while!!

First of all, I would go back and edit a couple things that were put into the chaos codex as it exists now. Your core unit of troops, the thousand sons, would behave exactly as they are now with a few exceptions:

1) The sorceror commands - if the sorceror leading the unit gets killed, the unit only moves 1d6 for Slow and Purposeful?! BULLCRAP. Get that stupid rule outta there.
2) Thousand sons are the ONLY INFANTRY UNIT IN THE CODEX right now that DONT have bolter, BP and CCW (barring terminators) Change that. Bring them in line with all the other cult troops.
3) bring back the ol' two wounds a piece. All thousand sons should have two wounds.

Other than that, everything is good. Keep the same points costs. The +4 invo, the slow and purposeful...Its fine. Just those three changes would make an enormous impact on their playability and make a dedicated army of them actually plausible.

Possessed are fine the way they are, but it would be cool to have an aspiring sorceror in there too. Maybe instead of the usual demonic table they roll on you could alter it to be more tzeentchian. Like, the possessed get the horror's warp-fire shooting ability instead of rending and/or power weapons. Make them a cross between a unit of horrors and possessed.

Spawn would be the tarpit unit, and i wouldnt change a thing about them. They're fun just the way the are. Except, i think they should alter their profile to allow them to NOT charge something they cannot kill (ie - land raider, monolith, bastion, etc)

As for other units, thats really about it. I think you should still be allowed to take bikes, raptors, oblits, defilers, etc. But where possible they would HAVE to take the mark of tzeentch. This way, you could fill the gaps in the thousand sons army to make a well rounded list. Meaning, you could use oblits for anti tank, raptors for charging, bikes for fast response units, etc....but it would still be fluffy all around.

Ahriman should cost just as much as any other super-psyker out there (ahem, Njal, ahem), and be just as deadly. He needs access to all sorts of powers...and by "all sorts" what i really mean is "useful and not phucking redundant". He should have area of effect spells, spells that are totally unique to a legion like the thousand sons. Spells like they used to have in the older codexes. Spells that fight or target other psykers, spells that affect the movement phase, spells like the changeling's ability. Just generally wierd, unusual stuff. Not necessarily offensive-attack-oriented spells, but things that alter the flow of play and mess with your opponent.

I want spells that make your enemy turn on themselves in confusion, spells that warp the guns of the enemy causing them to lose 1 AP value, spells that warp the ground and make the enemy slower or my own units faster....oh and something similar to "guide" would be nice, since most tzeentchian sorcerors are all about "farseeing". How about a spell that warps a piece of area terrain and makes tentacles grow up out of the ground and cause damage to those inside? or pins them?

Does anyone remember "twisting path"? Enemy takes a pinning check, if they fail they are pinned and the sorceror gleams some peice of info from the enemy and gains 50 victory points. Awesome! not useful anymore, but could be updated to grant you some sort of kill point advantage or something. Or what about the talisman of tzeentch? All enemy psykers are at -2 Ld when making psychic checks. Awesome, balanced and not god damn retarded like a "+3-you-dont-get-your-power-off roll".

Its unfortunate that other races have uncerimoniously snatched the title of most bad *** psyker, because surely that spot belongs to eldrad and ahriman. So, ahriman will have to compete the these said units, instead of exceeding them in power....unless you plan on making him more expensive than he already is, or turning him into an apocalypse datasheet! :rolleyes:

Sorcerors everywhere. A sorceror leads the bikers, the raptors, the thousand sons units (duh), the possessed, the chosen, the terminators. Dont change anything about his profile or anything, or the points costs. Just copy paste his options and stats into the other units in place of (or next to) thier champions.

Lastly, the thousand sons are all about thier psykers. As an army of space marines, raised on a PLANET of psykers, spending thousands of years in the warp perfecting thier art and making dark pacts with the gods, THEY SHOULD AUTOMATICALLY PASS ALL PSYCHIC POWER CHECKS. They used to, they still should. They should have at LEAST 2-4 pages of psychic powers to choose from. Too much you say? take a look at the fantasy rule book. The lore of this, the lore of that, the other lore....The demons book for WFB has pages of psyhic powers and wargear. Besides, if GW wrote 8 pages of powers to choose from for a thousand sons codex, you just KNOW that 6 of those pages will be useless point sink bull$hit.

Its not really a hard thing to imagine, changing this codex. Couple rules dropped off the cult legion thousand sons troops, add sorcerors instead of champs to other squads, make ahriman what he SHOULD be, add a couple pages of awesome powers and you're done!

What do you think? not so bad, right?

(jesus, maybe i should apply for a job at GW. I think i could write codexes for them....idiots) :rolleyes:

[Lord Anubis]

I'm not sure the Thousand Sons need an entire codex of their own. Honestly, I've always found single chapter/ legion books to be stretched a bit thin.

A few rules I would drop down, though...

Ahriman, first off, would need tweaks. The first would be his need for a psychic test-- gone. As has been pointed out, he's a 10,000 year old sorcerer. He knows what he's doing. I'd probably even make this an expansive rule and say that if Ahriman leads your army, all Tzeench sorcerers automatically pass their psychic tests. Ahriman doesn't waste time with rookies.

It was very upsetting to see they'd gotten rid of the fluffy bit about Ahriman stealing the spells of all other sorcerers. Ahriman should be able to use every psychic power in the Chaos Codex. Period.

The Black Staff is fine. He can use three psychic powers per turn, even multiple shooting powers. I'd probably even push it and say he can use the same power more than once, if he so chooses. Three BS 5 bolts of Tzeench at that Leman Russ? The Lash with a double Doom Bolt? Warptime, Lash, and a force weapon? It's all good. :D

**Actually, one other thought in the complete cheese category... It could be an Ahriman rule or a Black Staff bonus or what have you... Anyone trying to nullify Ahriman's powers with a psychic hood must roll 2d6 and add the lowest result to their leadership.

Army-wide, I honestly don't think they need much else. The only two biggies I'd make would be Legion Terminators (S+P, no options, 4+ invulnerable) and that every vehicle in the army must be possessed (yes, even dreadnaughts), to represent their drivers/ pilots/ etc turning to dust and inhabiting the vehicle.

That would make me happy.

[CrusherJoe]

1 month.

Thats how long it will take for people to go through the endless cycle

codex release
rabble rabble rabble, overpowered, unbeatable, game breaking
counter discovered
silence
codex release
rinse, repeat


I call this cycle the "New Codex WTF Tango".

I've danced it myself. I try not to, but sometimes it's fun to tango. :)

Besides, I love a good rant, and there's precious little powerful rant-fuel like a new codex with all sorts of shiny new toys that some jackholes (your opponents that have been waiting patiently for a new 'dex for 20+ years or some such ridiculous time period) get....and you DON'T. :p

Now...somewhat on-topic: the majority of the TS aren't psychics, they're soul-scraps trapped in power armor bottles. They're a lot like...well, robots, really -- if you could make a fully-functional AI and then take the soldering iron to 3/4 of it's CPU and give it an electronic lobotomy. This is why every unit of CS cult troops -requires- a sorcerer, to keep the dumb, slow, but oh-so-deadly dumbots in line. Just because you're A psyker doesn't mean you're THE pyker -- in other words, pretty much any numbnuts with a warp connection can (and is, I suppose) a "sorcerer". Putting on the deep blue armor and strapping on the PHaux-Egyptian PHenis PHaroah (silent P)Hat does NOT, in fact, make you The Most Baddest-A$$ed Psyker in the Universe.

Tzeench is the changer of ways. He likes to screw with people. Sometimes -- hell, OFTENtimes -- he likes to REALLY screw with his devoted, chicken-foot licking, power-whoring fans:

TZEENCH: [Trying REALLY hard not to look terminally bored.] Oh yeah sure, sign up for the Thousand Sons army, strap on this funny-looking hat and I'll make you the psyker equivalent of Samuel L. Jackson.

A$$-piring Chumpion: Woohoo! That'll kick so much a$$! I'll FINALLY GET LAID! YES! THANK YOU MIGHTY TEE-ZEE!

TZEENCH: [muttering under his breath in a most malevolent manner] Too easy, like taking candy from a baby. [TZEENCH reaches out with his power and simultaneously takes candy from the mouths of 1 million babies across the galaxy, replaces all the candy with an equivalent mass of weasel poop and enjoys the simultaneous screams of disgusted horror from all those kiddos...and then implants 1 million pieces of candy in the A$$-piring Chumpion's bum and then watches in delight as the candy reaches critical mass and collapses under it's own weight, creating a rectal singularity that devours A$$-piring Chumpion's body as though it were being shoved into his own bunghole. Awesome! Tzeench FTW!!]

...you get the idea. :)

So while I can see the validity of your arguments...well, sorry, but I'm just not very sympathetic to CSM players that seem to like nothing more than complaining about the current C:CSM and how they really suXXX0rz compared to the previous (pornographically broken, BTW) version of C:CSM. You got to rape the game for a good long while there -- you had a good run, you really did.

But as any REAL follower of Tzeench would say (with joy and adoration plainly evident on his face), "Things CHANGE!"

That very same argument also explains the proliferation of psykers in the new Codex: WEREWOLVES in SPAAAAAACE. After say, oh, TEN MILLENIA (that's over 10,000 -- here, let me spell that out for ya: TEN THOUSAND) years of ardent, sociopathic hatred for any person that could maybe turn on a light with their BRAIN instead of their hand and then subsequently getting their shaggy, mangy a$$es handed to them on any battlefield where one of these "aberrations" happened to show up...well, even a fuggin' stupid dog learns to move out of the way of the boot that kicks it over and over...or, in the case of the SPAAAAACE WEREWOLF WANNA-BEES...they re-think that whole "WE DON'T NEED NO STEENKIN' PSYKERS" strategy/creedo/inbred impulse.

[OK...if you're a TS or SW player, you're probably thinking I'm pretty much an a$$hat right now. Let me let you in on a secret: I play current-codex CSMs and find the book extremely flexible and powerful without having to board the Rape Train every time I play with it, and I find the concept of Space Wolves to be...well, a little silly but I go with it. The thing is, I had to be an equal-opportunity offender and that meant...well, probably sounding like an a$$hat to TS and SW players, and for that, I do apologize.]

Do I think ol' Stormcaller is WAY OTT?

Yes.

But that would be true no matter what's Tzeench's Bzeetches showed up to the table with. :)

[The Plastic Surgeon]

It's called Codex Creep people, it happened with Daemons for WFB and it will happen again with Skaven right after Space Wolves.

[Aux]

I really don't look at changes for the Legions to be necessary rules-wise, because Chaos Marines are still doing okay. I do miss the Legions themselves, as the codex has gone to spotlight the renegades over the multi-thousands strong Legions.
Personally, the Thousand Sons troops as they are presented are okay, though I would like to see some more themed powers based towards Tzeentch, or at least extra abilities such as Tzeentchian daemons have (We Are Legion, etc.). I don't see them needing an extra wound or any of the above changes because with their outstanding armour saves and awesome bolters, their point values are justified. If you are running a true Thousand Sons army, there shouldn't be bikers or jump troops as the robots would be strained to use things efficiently. Instead, deep-striking squads of Thousand Sons via magical ritual could be used for fast attack. Cult terminators would be nice to see for a change, as would small triads or tetragons of sorcerers with outstanding powers, like a souped-up psychic choir. Possessed vehicles and auto-passing of psychic tests sound good, especially with a limited army build-up.

[Prometheus]

Having read the advanced copy of the Space Wolf codex I have decided that I am willing to watch our local Space Wolf player (who just so happens to be a powergamer) play against another local gamer (or as I will call him the sacrifical lamb). If I beleive the codex to be "broken" i will simply not game against Space Wolves until they get a FAQ to newter them. If I think I can beat the codex with either my Plague Marines or my Tyranids I will give it a shot. But to be honest I'm thinking they are not going to be fair at all on the table top.

A word on "fluff" in codex as a building block for rules. I would love to believe that GW sits down with some of thier writers, game designers and the like and brainstorms ideas about each codex before writting it. I would like to think that, but sadlly I simply believe this not to be true. I assume occasionally the codex is left up to one or two people to write, others to draw images for, and no doubt becuase of deadlines and the like no one spends the time to go through and catch little things that two people might find fine (such as Space Wolves having such good psychic abilities that you will see one in every list) but the average gamerinstantly notices as being against the "fluff" of the army.

I see making codexs have tactics to deal with the current metagame scene, its not like GW wants to write a codex no one will buy, but guys come on it is getting out of hand. Make the Wolves monsters in combat, give them special rules that make them more wolf like, but do not give them some of the best psychic powers in the game and a unit riding wolves (which just look silly, in my opinion). Sadly the more I play this game and the more codexcs that come out the more I am in favor of GW switching to a living rulebook system. But for now I can rest on the idea that I will simply not play against codexs that simply make one sense. Whats next Dark Eldar that have Feel No Pain, all Armour 14 tanks, and more heavy weapons then IG?

[Schnitzel]

Whats next Dark Eldar that have Feel No Pain, all Armour 14 tanks, and more heavy weapons then IG?

Silence! Don't give GW any ideas! :O

[Kanaellars]

Having read the advanced copy of the Space Wolf codex I have decided that I am willing to watch our local Space Wolf player (who just so happens to be a powergamer) play against another local gamer (or as I will call him the sacrifical lamb). If I beleive the codex to be "broken" i will simply not game against Space Wolves until they get a FAQ to newter them. If I think I can beat the codex with either my Plague Marines or my Tyranids I will give it a shot. But to be honest I'm thinking they are not going to be fair at all on the table top.



Im sorry if I am out of order, but does anyone else read this and get an image of a tear stained 5 year old face, mumbling "I'm only gonna play if you let me win."

Sorry.:confused:

[DarkLink]

No, I agree with you Kanaellars. Especially since he says he plays Plague Marines.
A FAQ will clear up a few issues like the "identical psychic powers" and anything else that will crop up (or at least it hopefully will), but it won't change a good unit into an average unit. And the SW codex has a bunch of good units (but a lot fewer options than the vanilla Marine 'dex).

And there is no way to accurately tell how "broken" a codex is from a single game with a powergamer vs a casual player.

[Skragger]

But paper plates in hurricanes look purdy, especially the shiny ones :P
You're right though, for a guy who has studied and worshipped the warp for over ten millenia you would have thought he could do more than shoot a static charge from his finger, and at least be able to pass a pyschic test automatically because he has been a psycher before most rune priests started forgetting to shave.


Those ten millenia he's studied the exact time and amount of rubbing his feet on the carpet to cause some serious (minor) pain, so dont knock it..

Aw, who am I kidding.. my poor Sons.. :(

[Skragger]

Exactly. Inconsistancy is the key term here.

They shouldnt have ANY psychic powers. Maybe some anti psychic wargear, like a psychic hood or something. But cancelling ANY power on the roll of a +3? Thats better than any hood ive ever seen. Hell, thats better than what ELDRAD brings to the table!!!

what the HELL, GW? Marines who hate psykers have the most powerful psykers? The supposed dominant psyker forces (thousand sons and eldar) get stuck with pitiful little tiddly-winks?

Ahriman should be able to kick the psychic CRAP out of anyone except eldrad...even then, it'd be a duel for the ages. So some dumb bastid space wolf comes along and shows everyone else up?

I always thought SW were similar to Khorne, in the sense that they abhorr psychic powers

[sketchesofpayne]

I always thought SW were similar to Khorne, in the sense that they abhorr psychic powers

So did I!

[mountaincycle661]

ARRGH! Thats exactly the point! They DO abhor psychic powers! They DO!!

This is why i started this whole thread. Because an army that has a well-known reputation for hating psykers has some of the most ridiculous psychic powers!

IT MAKES NO SENSE!

And i agree with the previous poster in saying that I, too, doubt that GW really sits down and thinks things out with a large portion of staff. It would make sense to bring in your art directors, codex authors, playtesters (hell, even a local gamer or two from the shop) and just bounce ideas off each other until you get things settled.

DO NOT LET SOME DUMB BASTID SPACE WOLF FANBOY WRITE AN ENTIRE CODEX SO HE CAN KEEP HIS ARMY RIDICULOUSLY OVERPOWERED.

I will play a few games against the space wolves to truly determine where they stand in terms of cheesiness. If they arent so bad, then i will make it a point to massacre their dumbasses time and time again, utterly humiliating them. (they are my nemisis after all) But if they are broken, i will just flatly refuse to play against them. Period.

[imperialsavant]

:( I really dont like the current move in 40K to bring in more & more Psychic Powers.
Fantasy has enough Majic if thats what you go for.
I agree the Wolves should have more Anti Psychic than actual powers but perhaps thats just my Black Templar & Puritan Inquisitor personality coming out! LoL:D