Pre-Measuring Distance

[Drunkencorgimaster]

It struck me while playing a game last night that it seems odd that pre-measuring is not allowed in 40k but is in Fantasy. I'm sure I am not the first person to notice this...but fluffwise it does not make a lot of sense.


Drooling Idiot Centigor: "How far away would you say that Dwarf cannon is?"
Cow-Brained Minotaur: "Easy. 23.4 meters"

Futuristic Predator Gunner Looking Through Laser-Range Finder: "Yo! Anyone got a guess on the range to to that Carnifex?"
Super High-Tech Techmarine: "Frak if I know. Let's go with...too close!"

[Kawauso]

Pre-measuring wasn't in the last edition of Fantasy though, was it?

I think the general consensus is that pre-measuring will appear in 6th edition for 40k.

[Toaster36]

I prefer not having per-measuring in the game. Even when it works against my favor I like that both my opponents and I have to have the confidence to commit to an attack. That, and after years of playing I can easily eyeball anything less than 12" to the closest inch.

[Kawauso]

I prefer not having per-measuring in the game. Even when it works against my favor I like that both my opponents and I have to have the confidence to commit to an attack. That, and after years of playing I can easily eyeball anything less than 12" to the closest inch.

How would pre-measuring detract from your experience if you can eyeball distances that well? That's essentially pre-measuring, really.

Also, since I tend to play on Realm of Battle boards, the tiles alone offer a form of pre-measuring in that each tile is exactly 24".

I think it would make more sense just to add pre-measuring to the game. It won't make things any tactically less sound; I think it would actually have the opposite effect.

[Toaster36]

For me it feels like an element of skill added to the table top. It took me quite a few games to realize that the tables I play on are made up of three 24" x 48" sections. Once I became enlightened to that fact I used that knowledge as often as I could to better my position on the table. Taking that element of skill away would, IMO, dumb the game down a notch.

[Kawauso]

It's not dumbing the game down. Knowing the ranges would make movement even more crucial.

And spatial awareness isn't something that everyone can easily grasp, which slants the game in favour of those who are better at eyeballing distances.

[Wolfshade]

Fluff wise it also makes sense with range finders in SM helmets and stuff. Even our modern era scopes have range feedbacks so we can tell if something is in range.
I think the pre-measuring in fantasy was a strange thing, in fantasy the movement of units is vitally important and so is a skill in the game. Perhaps this move helps with the learning curve. I don't know if its in 40k as the manoeuvring isn't quite as important

[Tokolosh]

Hopefully premeasurements are allowed in 6th. It works well in Fantasy.

[Wildeybeast]

What you have to bear in mind is how premeasuring in fantasy works. For shooting and spell ranges, it makes sense that a comptent bowman can judge how far is bow will fire so it makes sense to say the same for troopers in 40k. It is stupid that you pick a tragte and fire, only to realise that it is out of range. It really doesn't make much of a significant difference in shooting (except for war machines). Where it did make a difference was in charges, but now they have the random element of how far you are going to move, so if you are going down that route in 40k I think assault moves need to be a random distance as well. I'm not sure whwther I prefer a skill judgement over a random roll, but I'm pretty sure we will see premeasuring in 40k.

[imperialsavant]

:) Yes I think pre-measuring for shooting is certainly in line with the Fluff of the technology of the 41st Millnm.
Would not like to see premeasuring for Assault etc.

[Bean]

You should definitely be allowed to measure any distance at any time. Not only is it far more in-line with the fluff, not allowing it is one of the dumbest and most pointless rules in the book. Serves no purpose--just makes the game worse.

[DarkLink]

I agree. Gauging distance might be a skill, but it's one that doesn't add to the tactical depth of the game.

[MercyKiller]

With premeasuring allowed, players have the option of being more precise with their tactics. There is too much room for imprecision in this game, and I think premeasuring helps to alleviate this.

[DadExtraordinaire]

:) Yes I think pre-measuring for shooting is certainly in line with the Fluff of the technology of the 41st Millnm.
Would not like to see premeasuring for Assault etc.

In WW2 the only "pre-measuring" I am aware of was, artillery and mortars zones usually by defenders on a tactical geographical / map refrence point like a cross roads. Attackers would do the same for bombardment purposes again on a geogrpahical / map reference point - and they can and did still miss (Carpet bombing around Caen anyone?).

Combatants in WW2 knew roughly how far their guns can hit a target, but they still missed those targets. I understand the arguments for "pre-measuring" in W40K around technology etc , but personally IMHO I would prefer not to "pre-measure" only in the above situations I have described above. My tuppence worth.:o

[DadExtraordinaire]

With premeasuring allowed, players have the option of being more precise with their tactics. There is too much room for imprecision in this game, and I think premeasuring helps to alleviate this.

The imprecision within the game is not necessarily that there is currently no "pre-measuring" but it could be that there is far too much chance on the die being rolled. A possibility is to remove the huge amount of die rolling which may equate to more precision. The issues do not necessarily mean that there is a problem because there is no "pre-measuring" currently.

For example, you want to run roll a d6, if you want move through cover roll a d6 or 2d6 or even 3d6. You want to hit a target roll a d6, to see if you wound roll a d6, to see if you save roll a d6.....ad infinitum!

The only time I believe there should be a d6 being rolled is around command, control, leadership and morale, stabilise the above factors (run, move through cover, shoot, hit, wound, save) if you want to remove the imprecision within the game system, IMHO.

In combat units have been known to fire at opponents, even though the targets are clearly out of range, or cannot be seen (llook at any sensationalised TV coverage of a modern day war, particularly when untrained militia fire at the opponents - they just point the gun round the corner, without seeing the target and fire!) In WW2 there are many accounts of fire being directed in the "direction" of the enemy without actually seeing the enemy or even if the units fire systems are within range! So "pre-measure" is not necessarily the answer to the perceived faults within W40K system.

And I'm not saying that modern warfare or even future warfare will not show the combatant that the target is within range on their scope / targeter, however, maybe a look at the randomness of the constant d6 rolling than actually the need for a pre-measure to be introduced. Personally, I'm not entirely happy with pre-measuring to be introduced to the current edition. If it was introduced there would need to be a tweak or three to the system and the way it currently plays out would not work......

[thefremen]

I've found as I play more and more games I haven't really gotten better at spatial reasoning but I have gotten better at paying attention. IE: My opponent shot at my land raider last turn and was able to do so because he was within 36" so if I move forward 12" I will be within 24" (well the hull at any rate I think you get where I'm going with this).

That said pre-measuring does fit the fluff a lot better since most armies have range sighting tech in their helmets or know from experience, with exceptions such as Orks who aren't exactly as precise as Tau when it comes to shooting.

[Renegade]

If pre-measuring comes in then it better be for vehicles and stationary units only, or it really wouldn't make any sense.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

I don't care for Pre-measuring, I like being wrong or being right. But that just means I'll play it as I always do, everyone else can do what they like :L. The idea of more choice = better again :L

[SotonShades]

If pre-measuring comes in then it better be for vehicles and stationary units only, or it really wouldn't make any sense.

This would simply result in people shooting with their static units first, knowing that the unit that moved and is now X" infront of the static unit will or won't be in range. Same as back when guess range weapons actually meant you had to guess a number of inches. Players often 'forgot' to fire them first and so knew the range before firing them.

Personnally I am in favour of not premeasuing. While most of the time it is fairly obvious to an experienced player if something will be within 6/12/whatever", when something is on the limit, it is often that extra quarter of an inch that makes the difference between unit's being in or out or range.

For Fantasy, the main cause of casualties for most armies is combat. Premeasruing took out the surprise and suspense generated by trying to guage whether your units or your opponant's would be able to charge. However this was mitigated by adding a random movement for the charge, keeping a certain fun tention in the game.

With 40k, the balance of destruction is much more equal between shooting and combat (depending upon which armies you and your opponant are using of course!) and so the validity of premeasuring becomes a lot more difficult to define. I'm sure none of us want to be rolling to see the range of our shooting all the time, quite apart from the fact it would be horrific to have to work out the relative change in the change of range for different weapons AND for each race, possibly with a boltgun not being the same for SM as IG for example. Assault makes more sense for random range though, as with fantasy, so premeasuring does make sense. That said, WFB includes a move characteristic so faster units are more likely toget in a long charge. With 40k assaults being almost universally 6" (with the exception of cavalry/beasts) it doesn't feel as right or make as much sense. I wouldn't want to be the one trying to crow-bar in all the additional stats for movement into the 6th Ed rulebook when the current system (more or less) has worked pretty well.

[Wolfshade]

Where it did make a difference was in charges, but now they have the random element of how far you are going to move, so if you are going down that route in 40k I think assault moves need to be a random distance as well. I'm not sure whwther I prefer a skill judgement over a random roll, but I'm pretty sure we will see premeasuring in 40k.
Yeah, I dislike the idea of assault ranges being random. I know this game is based on a roll of a die and so has that random element, but moving around that should remain a skill ensuring that you are in range or not. Though it is frustrating when you assault and find you are 0.5" away...

[Jambo]

i wouldnt like to pre measure in 40k cause you never really get used to guessing accurate distance which in movement and shooting is very handy if you can estimate 12" 6" etc for charge range etc

[pathwinder14]

I don't like the idea of pre-measuring. Heck, I remember when there were guess ranges. I would park tanks in my rear corner and use the Pythagorean Theorum to own opponents. ;)

[Hive777]

I'm not as well-versed in 40K as most here, but I've done my share of miniatures wargaming. My concern about pre-measuring is that it can bog games down terribly. There certainly are players who could do this efficiently, but I suspect that's not most players. My experience with it has been that it easily doubles the length of each player's turn, as distances are measured and re-measured even before a single piece is moved.

[Denzark]

I don't care either way but I feel this would be as Hive7777 says, a way of slowing down the game, as opponents take the time ti line up exactly the right shots and correct orders of units to maximise their fire.

[Turner]

I think it would be worth play testing at the very least. I think with time, like anything else, and practice, see previous commas, people would get pretty good/quick with moving their models and pre-measuring things quickly.

[Moonley]

In this you should ask why you want premeasuring. The argument could just as well be about how the inaccuracies of what is essentially the fastest new age of warfare are what make the fluff. Are you really going to have time to plot out range and scope every time you shoot anything? In a world of lightning quick nids and orks on speeder bikes.... it's safe to say you cant expect that. Warfare has only gotten faster and faster, and this is impossibly far in the future.
However, tanks with built in targeting systems, that would be kinda neat...if you just simply made premeasuring an ability or attachment.

I will not support something that changes the game just over people who rage quit their matches off of inaccuracies they made and the commander of the army.

[Kiarr]

Personally I don’t see that premeasuring makes much of a difference to the game as people have pointed out before if you have modular gaming boards then you can pretty much tell the distances, in fact so much so that I know a few people who whilst not fully refusing to play on modular terrain they don’t like it as they see it as dumbing down.

Personally I think it is a bit odd not being able to pre-measure as essentially the troops are making the decision to fire on the unit they fire on and they would be experienced enough to decide that their fire would be ineffective against a target over their max range and fire on something else. (Mind you in real life snipers can take targets out over 1 mile away in favourable conditions so its not exactly realistic)

I personally would welcome premeasuring as it is a major advantage in noob vs experienced player games and would level the playing field a little for more tactical play and a little less – being cautious because I could end up ½ an inch off assaulting play

[GrogDaTyrant]

Pre-measuring isn't as big of a deal as people are blowing it up to be, IMHO. 40k could probably do with a bit more pre-measuring. There are already units that can pre-measure in 40k, and if anything it's more balanced when everyone can do it. It also only really slows the game down if you or your opponent suffers from Analysis Paralysis... Which is not the game's problem. Several other systems (beyond Fantasy) utilize a pre-measuring system, and do so without any real slow-down. Many of those games are even more decisive, with a much greater focus towards strategy, because of it.

Although in all honesty, I'm under the opinion that 40k needs a lot more than just pre-measuring..