Veil of Darkness question

[thecactusman17]

I want to take a Harbinger of Destruction with my Deathmarks. I know that he can deep strike on to the board from normal reserves, but can he actually deep strike from Deep Strike Reserves with the Deathmarks? Taking advantage of Ethereal Interception would sure be nice.

[herigonz]

Gut says no. Nowhere in the Necron Codex does it say that the Veil of Darkness allows the Cryptek to Deep Strike. Having said that I guess I can see your confusion. When a Cryptek joins a unit, he is simply a character, not an "Independent Character". So the "Special Rules" entry on page 48 doesn't apply completely.

Are there any precedents set in any other codex? I believe Sanguinary Priests remain IC's even when they join a unit.

[thecactusman17]

Well, what we know is that the Cryptek would automatically get the Ethereal Intervention rule IF he's allowed to deep strike normally, as stated clearly in the FAQ. The only question is whether the model CAN deep strike normally. The Veil allows you to momentarily leave the table and deep strike as normal, but whether it actually gives the model the Deep Strike rule is a lot more unclear.

All I would gain from this is the ability to enter play on my opponent's turn. All the other stuff is already granted by the gear in question and the current Necron FAQ.

[Encarmine]

according to the faq veil allows the cryptek and unit it is attached to to arrive from reserves using the veil, which make that unit come in as if it deep striked, instead of moving on normally. so maybe. i would allow it, as its the same thing as deep strike.

[Sonikgav]

The thing is, the FAQ does say a Cryptek can benefit from other Rules units have such as Hunters from Hyperspace. It would be hard to say they can have that rule and not have this one so its all or nothing.

[herigonz]

Ugh, I'm on fire today. Too lazy to look up the FAQ and yeah, it is clear as day that the Cryptek gets 'Hunters from Hyperspace'. Having said that though...

The thing is, the FAQ does say a Cryptek can benefit from other Rules units have such as Hunters from Hyperspace. It would be hard to say they can have that rule and not have this one so its all or nothing.
Where does the FAQ say that the Cryptek can benefit from the other rules units have (outside of 'Hunters from Hyperspace'? The only thing I found is:

Q: Do models from a Royal Court that are attached to a
Deathmark Squad benefit from the Hunters from
Hyperspace special rule? (p90)
A: Yes.
I figure that it is mainly meant that any Royal Court member gets that bonus but the very following question prevents any generic Royal Court member (i.e. non-Harbingers of Despair, Lords) from Deep Striking with them. Clearly the Veil takes precedence (or replaces) the need to Deep Strike by augmenting it so that the unit can simply always teleport around the field.

I think it comes down to your opponent and whether he will allow it (a RAW vs RAI argument). Adding a Veil of Darkness definitely adds some element of trickeration to the Deathmarks allowing them to jump from area to area sniping enemies (especially if you select a more generic target for 'Hunters from Hyperspace'). Obviously entering during an opponents turn lets you adjust if you're not within Rapid Fire range (or deploy just outside of the 'normal' 12" assault range knowing you'll be able to move 6" during your turn). But until 6th ed comes out, it just seems like more danger than what its worth to bring em in early.

[Nachodragon]

I looked at this as well and was really hoping that they could Deep Strike with the deathmarks special rule. Alas, they cannot. The veil allows for a Deep Strike movement only in the movement phase. So, if there is anything attached to the Deathmarks they will not be able to deep strike at all, unless a veil cryptek and then only in the movement phase.

[Necron_Lord]

You can't use the Deathmark special rule, but you can use the special rule from Nemesor Zahndrekh to do the same thing. Check out the Phased Reinforcement rule! This would only work with a veil Cryptek and not a Harbinger of Destruction. However the veil Cryptek would benefit from Hunters from Hyperspace and thus wound a unit on a 2+ with an AP 1 template. Ouch!!!!

[Nachodragon]

You would not be able to bring in that unit on the enemy turn via deep strike at all. The Cryptek's deep strike ability is only good in the movement phase. Also, Nemesor and the Deathmark's phased reinforcement rule is exactly the same, just word differently; one is for the army and one is just for the unit.

[thecactusman17]

Sorry guys, i meant the Harbinger of Despair with a Veil.

[Necron_Lord]

You would not be able to bring in that unit on the enemy turn via deep strike at all. The Cryptek's deep strike ability is only good in the movement phase. Also, Nemesor and the Deathmark's phased reinforcement rule is exactly the same, just word differently; one is for the army and one is just for the unit.

If you had Nemesor Zahndrekh on the table your Deathmarks with a Veil Cryptek could DS in the enemy turn when an enemy unit is deployed from reserve by using the phased reinforcement rule. The Necron FAQ said that a Cryptek with Veil of Darkness can Deep Strike from reserve, so the unit can Deep Strike.

[Nachodragon]

This is true except the veil of darkness only works in the movement phase. So you could DS the unit in but only in your turn and when you have rolled your reserve roll.

[Necron_Lord]

Zahndrekh's phased reinforcements rule allows friendly units in reserve with the ability to Deep Strike to Deep Strike in the opponent's turn. In order for that to occur, Zahndrekh must be on the table and an enemy unit must be deployed from reserve. After that enemy unit deploys you may interrupt his turn and deploy any number of units you have in reserve which can Deep Strike. Thus Deathmarks with a veil Cryptek can deploy in the opponent's turn if Zahndrekh is on the table and the opponent deploys a unit from reserve. Deathmarks with a veil Cryptek is a unit with the ability to Deep Strike.

[DarkLink]

I have to agree with Nachodragon. The Veil does not grant the unit a universal ability to deepstrike. It simply allows you a special move in your own movement phase. You may use that special move to come in from reserves, but because that special move is limited to your movement phase you cannot use it in your opponent's turn.

[Necron2.0]

I have no dogs in this fight, since I don't use Deathmarks. What I gather is the question hinges on whether or not a cryptek can deepstrike from reserve. The wording of the Veil seems to suggest no - it explicitly states the cryptek's unit is removed from the table top, which would mean it had to be on the table in the first place (meaning the Veil's deepstrike is actually a faux-deepstrike). Of course, this could have been changed with errata, which I'm not interested enough to look up at this time.

One thing that is becoming clear here, however, is that this is yet another example of how crap-tastic an effort this Necron Codex was. Lumping this in with the other confused issues people have been sorting through since November (2011), I'm seeing why so many people don't much care for Ward.

[Necron_Lord]

There are two questions in the Necron FAQ which contradict each other.

One says that Veil Crypteks can Deep Strike from reserve. The other says that Deathmarks cannot Deep Strike from reserve when a Royal Court member is attached because all squad members need the Deep Strike special rule. Because the FAQ doesn't explicitly state that Veil Crypteks have the Deep Strike special rule even though it said they can Deep Strike from reserve (which only units with the Deep Strike rule can do), it opens up the door for unending dispute.

This is why the question about Veil Crypteks Deep Striking from reserve was addressed in the first place. RAW people wanted that ability to only be used if the Cryptek was already on the board. The FAQ said it and any unit it is a member of can Deep Strike from reserve. But since it explicitly didn't say that it grants the Deep Strike special rule to any unit it is attached to, people can say that it can't Deep Strike with Deathmarks because the Veil Cryptek doesn't have the Deep Strike special rule. This is utterly retarded and shouldn't be allowed to happen. GW really need to step up their game in this area.