GK Progenitor

[Terence]

I always wondered who was the grey Knights progenitors. I dont means the Primarchs.
The codex said that malcador presented to the Emperor 8 uncoruptable individuals who was first captains of theat chapter.
Rumor mils said that they were from traitor legions who proved themseves uncoruptable
let gues who they were:
We can bet on Garoo (Death Guard) who was one of the first Inquisitive tipes Melcador remarked about.
Who else
I would put Locken (I know that he died at Istvan - but Dan Abnet in one of its commentary/interviews said that we can expect the return of Locken)
Iacton Qruze
Tylos Rubio
Whonder who next.

[plawolf]

**Spoiler!** Stop reading of you haven't heard Legion of One audio book and would want to.





Loken didn't die, Garro went and found him. That was basically what Legion of One was all about.

[celestialatc]

Yea, listen to Plawolf. Get Legion of One (and Oath of Moment) from black library. It's the start of the grey knights. There is also a dude from the World Eater, who I think is awesome and want more of him.

I am sure once they finish the Horus Heresy novel (if ever) they will make a whole line of novels on the first grand masters.

[wittdooley]

There's a World Eater in there, too. Mesa Varren.

So presently, our GK Founders are:

Nathaniel Garro - Death Guard
Garviel Loken - Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus
Iacton Qruze - Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus
Tylos Rubio - Ultramarines
Mesa Varren - World Eaters

I'd place a serious wager that we won't be seeing any Word Bearers or Alpha Legion in the final three spots; Word Bearers for obvious reasons, Alpha due to their pragmatism and the fact that they haven't really turned.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see an Iron Warrior in there. We've already seen in the short story collection that there are plenty of them loyal to the Emperor. I could see a Night Lord; in the ADB series that takes place now, they clearly have no love for Chaos. I could potentially see an Emperor's Children dude in there as well, but we haven't heard a ton from them since Fulgrim. I could VERY clearly see one of the Thousand Sons in there, particualrly one of the splinters that cleans up Prospero of the World Eaters after the razing. I also think it would be nice to see a member of one of the decimated legions (the Salamanders, Raven Guard, or Iron Hands) as a part of the eight.

Further, my guess is that Janus is either Loken or Garro. We know that the GKs change their name once they complete their training. I'd put my money on Garro.

[plawolf]

Good points.

Just to add, there is a chance that one of the 8 could be a Custodian Guard. I would say that Amon would be a good candidate if that was the case, but it is entirely possible that Dan has a central role for him in the battle of Terra, and we would just get a random new character instead.

Regarding Janus, I personally think Loken would be more likely to be him.

Garro is one tough SoB, but Loken just seems to be on a higher level in terms of fighting prowess, and is a more natural leader figure, whereas Garro has always seem to be more the loyal and dependable follower. He would make a great second in command, but may not have the same charisma or presence as Loken.

[inquisitorsog]

I'd place a serious wager that we won't be seeing any Word Bearers or Alpha Legion in the final three spots; Word Bearers for obvious reasons, Alpha due to their pragmatism and the fact that they haven't really turned.
...snip...

Thousand Sons make sense on a motivation level. However, there'd also need to be a bit of story as to how he avoided the corruption. Certainly, of all the candidates, he'd bring the most to the table for daemon fighting.
Unlike you, I'm not immediately opposed to Alpha or Word Bearers. Alpha is just sneaky enough to fit the GK modus operandi of operating "beneath the radar". For Word Bearers, it's simply that one who remained wholly loyal to the Emperor when he had to choose between Lorgar or the Emperor. Like Cruze, he could end up being an "old timer".

[plawolf]

Thousand Sons make sense on a motivation level. However, there'd also need to be a bit of story as to how he avoided the corruption. Certainly, of all the candidates, he'd bring the most to the table for daemon fighting.
Unlike you, I'm not immediately opposed to Alpha or Word Bearers. Alpha is just sneaky enough to fit the GK modus operandi of operating "beneath the radar". For Word Bearers, it's simply that one who remained wholly loyal to the Emperor when he had to choose between Lorgar or the Emperor. Like Cruze, he could end up being an "old timer".

Gk hardly operate 'under the radar', they are more of a 'smash the radar and kill everyone who saw them on radar after they are done' kinda guys.

Alpha Legion won't fit well into that organization, and even if a few were loyal enough, no one else would trust them enough to allow that to happen. Alpha Legion would be more suited as a possible founder of the =I=, but again, the mistrust issue remains.

As for word bearers, well I don't think someone who worships the Emperor as a god will by any more welcome to the GKs than someone who wants to kill him.

I think we need to appreciate how big of a change Loken's return means for the series.

If Loken survived, then there is every chance other major characters like Tarvitz, Vipus, Roland etc might have also survived, and they would make prime candidates for the first chapter masters of the Grey Knights.

[inquisitorsog]

Gk hardly operate 'under the radar', they are more of a 'smash the radar and kill everyone who saw them on radar after they are done' kinda guys.

Alpha Legion won't fit well into that organization, and even if a few were loyal enough, no one else would trust them enough to allow that to happen. Alpha Legion would be more suited as a possible founder of the =I=, but again, the mistrust issue remains.

As for word bearers, well I don't think someone who worships the Emperor as a god will by any more welcome to the GKs than someone who wants to kill him.

I think we need to appreciate how big of a change Loken's return means for the series.

If Loken survived, then there is every chance other major characters like Tarvitz, Vipus, Roland etc might have also survived, and they would make prime candidates for the first chapter masters of the Grey Knights.
I wasn't saying they were perfect fits, just that I wouldn't think it was totally bending reality to put them in.

As far as Grey Kniggets being under the radar, I seem to recall the older fluff on GKs was that their armor had an effect that exuded either psychically or technologically an "I'm not here" effect on those who weren't directly interacting with them. The latest codex basically ignores that bit in favor of the draconian "kill everything and let the Emperor sort it out" approach. But, anyway, the former is what I was thinking of with the Alpha comment. And, again, for the Word Bearers, it really would only be a Legion old timer who never bought into the whole message to begin with I think.

To your other point, bringing back more than Loken would be one of those bits where it strains suspension of disbelief. It also runs the risk of diminishing a character's heroic death to bring them back because they weren't really going to die anyway, right? I'm not saying they couldn't do it, just that it's hard to do without cheapening other aspects of the character.

[bladeofdeath3]

If you read "Battle for the Abyss" you would know that there were loyalist elements in every legion. So the GK fluff says that there are 8 space marines who were chosen by Malcador to start this new organization. This fits the fluff as there are 8 Grey Knight Grand Masters. We know of Garro, Qruze, Rubio, Varren, Loken, and "Janus". We know little to nothing about Janus other than that he was the first Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. This leaves 2 open seats. Seeing as most of the first grand masters were mostly from traitor legion, I would think 1 of 2 would be from a traitor legion. Seeing as the grey knights are potent psykers this leads me to think that at least one of them is a Thousand Sons psyker. I'm guessing we probably met this character before. This leaves Saul Tarvitz as a viable option. The only legion which I don't think would have a candidate for the founding grey knights is the Word Bearers.

[plawolf]

I am surprised that this did not occur to me sooner, and even more so that it has not been mentioned by someone else before now, but there is a perfect Iron Warrior candidate for the Grey Knights. A warsmith no less - Dantioch from the short story Iron Within from Age of Darkness.

He is certainly senior and loyal enough to qualify as one of the founding Grand Masters.

So, we have two Luna Wolves, Death Guard, World Eater, Ultramarine and Iron Warrior as prime candidates for first Grand Masters, so we have 6 of the 8 if they are all selected.

I can also see the huge benefit a loyalist Thousand Son would present, and while I agree with inquisitorsog that 'bring back' too many of the other loyalists from Isstvan IV would be too much of a stretch and risk undoing a lot of the great work done with Galaxy in Flames, I still feel that having 1 other beside Loken survive would not be too unreasonable, and Tarvitz would be the most suitable, and then we would have our 8.

[Ch_DokWreckshop]

I always wandered who were the "firsts eight", my guess was one of each of the traitor legions (many survivors of Isvaan, and why not traitors to the traitors of the drop massacre?). That is one legion left, maybe to corrupted.

[Thornblood]

So, I think if there are two empty spot we need to think "what powers do the Grey Knights have that are not accounted for". Whilst Rubio provides some Psychic ability I think we are still lacking. As much as I would love Mhotep from Battle for the Abyss to be in a dreadnought and be a founder, he snot incorruptible.

However, a thousand son could be on the cards. Or a librarian from any other chapter.

What I would like the most though is that the Emperor kept one of each loyalists from the two deleted/lost chapters- one chapter we know is very psychically competent.

However there is nothing stopping loyal chapters not joining. A Raven Guard who was against Corax's dabbling in science maybe? Certainly fits with the Teleporter needs.

The other 'need' could be a Techmarine.

[trjames]

The other 'need' could be a Techmarine.

Perhaps one that did not get enthralled in the Machine Cult, and who is still phanatically loyal to the Emperor alone?

[wittdooley]

If you read "Battle for the Abyss" you would know that there were loyalist elements in every legion. So the GK fluff says that there are 8 space marines who were chosen by Malcador to start this new organization. This fits the fluff as there are 8 Grey Knight Grand Masters. We know of Garro, Qruze, Rubio, Varren, Loken, and "Janus". We know little to nothing about Janus other than that he was the first Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. This leaves 2 open seats. Seeing as most of the first grand masters were mostly from traitor legion, I would think 1 of 2 would be from a traitor legion. Seeing as the grey knights are potent psykers this leads me to think that at least one of them is a Thousand Sons psyker. I'm guessing we probably met this character before. This leaves Saul Tarvitz as a viable option. The only legion which I don't think would have a candidate for the founding grey knights is the Word Bearers.

Janus is one of the original 8, but not an extra. He's most likely one of the 5 we presently know.

I'm down with Tarvitz, but is he even still alive?

[bladeofdeath3]

Sorry Thornblood, but battle of the abyss made it clear that Mhotep was dead. Even if he did manage to survive, I find it highly unlikely that the anyone would find him in time and inter him in a dreadnought...

In Roman Mythology, Janus was a two-faced god who looks forward and backward in time. In my opinion this would be a psyker gifted in precognition or some sort of ability which allows them to view events of the past, present and future. A lot of the thousand sons psykers were gifted precogs, so a new thousand sons character to be Janus wouldn't be impossible. Rubio doesn't seem to display precognition abilities, but more telekinesis based.

As for Tarvitz, his fate is left open. While it is possible that he met his fate on Isstvan III, Loken did survive, so it is completely possible. However, I feel that they would've picked him up when they got Loken, so perhaps he is dead. There is an upcoming Garro book, so I guess that they'll introduce a new character then

[Goochman]

Sorry Thornblood, but battle of the abyss made it clear that Mhotep was dead. Even if he did manage to survive, I find it highly unlikely that the anyone would find him in time and inter him in a dreadnought...

In Roman Mythology, Janus was a two-faced god who looks forward and backward in time. In my opinion this would be a psyker gifted in precognition or some sort of ability which allows them to view events of the past, present and future. A lot of the thousand sons psykers were gifted precogs, so a new thousand sons character to be Janus wouldn't be impossible. Rubio doesn't seem to display precognition abilities, but more telekinesis based.

As for Tarvitz, his fate is left open. While it is possible that he met his fate on Isstvan III, Loken did survive, so it is completely possible. However, I feel that they would've picked him up when they got Loken, so perhaps he is dead. There is an upcoming Garro book, so I guess that they'll introduce a new character then
That's a very good point, they have to be more survivors at Isstvan III that they haven't mentioned, remember a lot of people took refuge in the caves.....we'll see what happens. If the Ultramarines got ambushed at Calth and the survivors lasted hundreds of years underground fighting, why not at Isstvan III?

Brother G

[Thornblood]

I liked Mhotep. Im not betting he will come back, but he was a good character.

A Thousand Sons Techmarine I feel would bring the most to the table. Someone who understands science and psychic powers and can take what both have to offer to start making the wargear- aegis suits and nemesis weapons and the like.

A psyker from the lost chapter with psychic powers (that the Space Wolves destroyed) would also work out very well.

[Foxhound2delta]

I'm hoping Black Library ties up things with this but I suspect that the Horus Heresy series will be a lot like waiting for the clock to tick over into the 41st M. Just isn't going to happen. As readers we'll keep waiting for that climatic battle between Horus and the Emperor (Steve) and it just will never come about because writing about the smallest details will still gains them sales and the nerds out there will rally to read what the Mechanicus ate for breakfast back in M30.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I have been thinking hard about this topic for a couple years. I think i know who the 8 are.

Garro - AKA Janus. The Grey Knights change their names when they join. Garro will be their leader just like he is now. I think his sword Libertas, is the icon on their badge and the book is the life's work of the last Remebrancer.

Loken - AKA Cerberus.

Rubio.

Varren. On the cover of Garro: Sword of Truth we see Varren. We know Varren was on Isstvan III. His survival hints at fate of the next on my list.

Tarvitz. All though we don't yet know he lives i think he is also on the cover of Sword of Truth, to the right of Varren.

Arvida. In the short story Rebirth in Age of Darkness this Thousand Sons astates is last seen on Prospero. If Garro went to Calth, and Isstvan, why not Prospero?

Tarrasch. The Iron Palatine in the short story, The Iron Within, makes my list. The Warsmith Dantioch is to close to death i feel.

Yesugei. The Storm Seer who spoke for the Librians at Nikaea. I think he may also be on the cover of Sword of truth, to the left of Varren


http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/sword-of-truth.html


Qruze and Mhotep have also been onlist list at one time but no longer.

[[email protected]]

If I remember corectly. The emperors own genetics were used in the creation of the first Grey Knights. This would also explain there psycer abilities.

[bladeofdeath3]

So on sword of truth we can see a little more about the Grey Knights. We see 3 marines, a white scar, a world eater, and an emperor's children. According to the synopsis, it seems like the world eaters and emperor's children are on a planet so he probably grabs one of them. The World eater is macer varren, a captain who didn't betray during the heresy. The White Scar and Emperor's Children are both only holding a bolter, which leads me to believe that they are probably tactical marine (varren, a captain, has a power sword distinguishing him).
So we have so far...
1. Garro
2. Qruze (Questionable, but in "The Last Remembrancer" in "Age of Darkness" Qruze has become Malcador's "hand" and started to wear plain grey power armor)
3. Tylos Rubio
4. Macer Varren
5. Garviel Loken
6. Unidentified White Scar (From the cover of Garro: Sword of Truth)
7. Unidentified Emperor's Children (From the cover of Garro: Sword of Truth)
8. Last Founding Member (Possibly Janus unless Janus is one of the characters we have already met)

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

So on sword of truth we can see a little more about the Grey Knights. We see 3 marines, a white scar, a world eater, and an emperor's children. According to the synopsis, it seems like the world eaters and emperor's children are on a planet so he probably grabs one of them. The World eater is macer varren, a captain who didn't betray during the heresy. The White Scar and Emperor's Children are both only holding a bolter, which leads me to believe that they are probably tactical marine (varren, a captain, has a power sword distinguishing him).
)

I don't think bolters are only used by tactical Marines. On the cover of Legion of One , Loken is holding his bolt gun.