H2H Weapon Clearifications

[MichaelC]

Last night we began to debate the rules found on the rulebook p. 42 as it referred to weapons and attacks granted.

As I was reading this I got the following things out of it.

1. two close combat weapons give you a +1 A in CC. (this is a given that no one disputes)

2/3 are where the wording is a little funny:: The word is "additional attack"

Do double special weapons give you +2 A "+1 for the "one bonus attack" you get from two CCWs, and another +1 for the "one extra attack" for the same special weapons combo???--Or is it just a +1 for having 2 special weapons, which would mean that the "one additional attack" is that same thing as the "one bonus attack" listed for the two CCWs section listed above it???

Now the same argument for the different combo.

does a standard weapon and a CCW give you +2 A "+1 for the "one bonus attack" you get from two CCWs and another +1 for the "one extra attack" for a special weapon combo???--Or is it just a +1 for having the combo, which would mean that the "one additional attack" is that same thing as the "one bonus attack" listed for the two CCWs section listed above it???

If the "one extra attack" is actually and "extra attack" that adds to the "one bonus attack" that means that dual lightning claws, thunder hammers, power fists, Power Weapons, Wolf Claws, etc. provide +2 A for each character using the combo. And it also means that characters armed with a combination of CCW/Pistol plus any other special weapon, Power Weapons, Harliquins Kiss, Force Weapons, Rending Weapons, Witchblades, Poison Blades, etc, besides the lightning claws, thunder hammers, powerfists (this excludes Wolf Claws as not listed in exceptions) gets a +2 A for having that particular combo. I am just going off of wording.

Note that the wording does not allow for you to get +3 because you can only have a combo of a two special Weapons, a special weapon + normal CCW, or two CCWs. And having two different special weapons confers no bonus attack nor does it have another listing that provides "one extra attack."

Should this be FAQed has it already been decided by the developers. Is it just my local gaming store that has pondered on this? We saw that the wording on pp. 37 says you can not get more than +1 A for having more than two weapons, but it doesn't say that you can't get extra attacks for the benefits that a weapon gives; ie you cant have 3 CCWs and get extra attacks outside of the +1 for having that one more CCW, It then goes on and says under "Other Bonuses" that special rules (for models) and Wargear (weapons are wargear) "may confer extra attacks")

As a side note the discussion did not come to being during a game, so I hold no personal stake in the decision. I am just trying to get extra knowledge to pass on to a new guy, 10 year old kid, who brought it up during a discussion about the rules- he likes necrons.

[BlueRonin]

That's a strange point - I look forward to reading the wording you refer to. However, I'd be shocked if there ever was any intention to give more than the one bonus attack for two "close-combat type" weapons (i.e. melee and pistol weapons.

[Culven]

For (two CCWs) or (one CCW/Pistol and one special weapon) the model only gains +1A for having a pair of combat weapons. There are some exceptions: two-handed CCWs (no bonus attacks) and Powerfists, Thunderhammers, and Lightning Claws (only gain bonus attack if paired with the same weapon).

[Schnitzel]

I was always under the impression that paired special CC weapons such as lightning claws gave an additional attack as well as the extra attack for having two CCWs.
2 CCWS +1A
LC Pair +1A

Makes sense to me.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

What I'd like to know is, for models with 3 CCWs of some kind, say Marneus Calgar and his power sword.

+1A obviously, for two power fists. But then when you use special CC weapons, it says to use all attacks with one special weapon's attribute. If you use the power sword, do you get to use the bonus attack from the other two CCWs?

Far as I can tell, the answer is yes -- which means the same thing applies to stuff like the Chapter Champion we mentioned in the other thread.

I know people argue this is wrong, but there is one glaring place where people overlook it -- Chaos Marines. If they get charged the same round they use a bolter, do they only have 1 attack instead of 2 (+1 for 2xCCW)? By the argument against the good guys, this would be the case...but no one seems to mind playing it such that all chaos marines get full attacks regardless.

EDIT: A friend of mine cleared this up, by quoting the Power Fist rules. It says a model "equipped" with this can never get +1A except for a duplicate special weapon...so question answered.

[Culven]

The bolter isn't a combat weapon, so unfortunately the CSM issue is moot since they only have two weapons that can be used in combat.

However, there are plenty of other examples of models having 3+ combat weapons, so your point still stands. I am still nto convinced as to the answer because the multiple combat weapons rules tend to use "equipped with" and "using" interchangably.

[phoenyxx]

No you do not get +2 attacks. These are mutually exclusive situations.

Situation 1 - With 1 CCW you get a number of attacks equal to your A attribute

Situation 2 - With 2 CCW you get 1 extra attack on top of your A attribute.

Situation 3 - With 1 Special Weapon you get a number of attacks equal to your A attribute. Please note that while a special weapon is used in Close Combat it is not a CCW, it's a special weapon. So you do not get the +1 A from using 2 CCWs, both because you are only using 1 weapon in this case and because it is not a CCW.

Situation 4 - With 1 CCW and 1 Special Weapon, you still only get a number of attacks equal to your A attribute. The rules specifically state that you do not get the extra attack unless you have 2 of the same special weapon.

Situation 5 - With 2 Special Weapons (2 power fists, 2 lightning claws, etc) you get 1 extra attack in addition to your A attribute. Please note that weapons that require 2 hands would not get this bonus because you cannot wield more than one 2-handed weapon at a time.

Situation 6 - With multiple CCWs and special weapons, I am still unsure exactly how this is supposed to work. I've read most of the threads on this board on the matter, and I have not decided which interpretation I believe is correct. I'll worry about it whenever it actually comes up in a game. :p

[Culven]

You may want to check the rules on page 42 under "A normal and a special weapon" with regards to your "situation 4". ;)

[phoenyxx]

You may want to check the rules on page 42 under "A normal and a special weapon" with regards to your "situation 4". ;)

Sorry, I shouldn't have generalized/paraphrased. I should have made a completely separate situation for Power Fists.

I'm assuming here that you are correcting me on say a Power Sword and CCW, which would get a single extra attack (not two). But a Power Fist and CCW, Lightning Claw and CCW, or a Thunder Hammer and CCW all would not get any extra attacks.

[Culven]

I'm assuming here that you are correcting me on say a Power Sword and CCW, which would get a single extra attack (not two). But a Power Fist and CCW, Lightning Claw and CCW, or a Thunder Hammer and CCW all would not get any extra attacks.
Correct. The general rule is that any Special CCW combined with a Normal CCW will grant +1 Attack (per the fighting with two single-handed CCW rules). Under this general rule, there are exceptions for Power Fists, Lightning Claws, and Thunderhammers.

[phoenyxx]

Correct. The general rule is that any Special CCW combined with a Normal CCW will grant +1 Attack (per the fighting with two single-handed CCW rules). Under this general rule, there are exceptions for Power Fists, Lightning Claws, and Thunderhammers.


Agreed, which is what (more or less) I was trying to say. I should have been more explicit though. :)

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

My thoughts are that you can only ever gain +1 attack for having ANY combination of weapons (ccw or special). It's fairly obvious the developers were simply trying to represent the character fighting with a weapon in each hand (hence the two-handed weapon preventing a model from gaining bonus attacks) - the marine trying to use two lightning claws and two chainswords is more likely to eviscerate himself than the enemy. Most of wh40k's rules can be torn apart with grammatical technicalities - just stick with the obvious intent.

[lobster-overlord]

Is this a change for the Power Fist? We've always played that a Power Fist in cunjunction with any CCW (mainly pistol weapons) conferred the extra +1 A for CC.

[Nabterayl]

Is this a change for the Power Fist? We've always played that a Power Fist in cunjunction with any CCW (mainly pistol weapons) conferred the extra +1 A for CC.

Yes, it's an explicit change in 5th edition. Page 42 of the 5th edition rulebook states:


Power fists, thunder hammers and lightning claws are an exception to [the rule that a normal and a special weapon confers a bonus attack]. Only a second power fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons.

[lobster-overlord]

Thanks. I've not played 5th much, as I now have 2 kids that have kept me from getting out of the house much. Just making sure I hadn't read it wrong previously to 5th.